Schools with true P/F system (no internal ranking) for years 1 & 2

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Virgil

Virgil

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nosugrefneb said:
I applied without any attention to schools' grading systems, and I can tell you that having a true P/F system has been 90% of the reason I've enjoyed my time in medical school as much as I have.
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I'm compiling a list of allopathic schools which are strictly P/F (with absolutely no internal ranking) for years 1 and 2. So far I have

1. Pritzker
2. Yale

Do you know of any others?
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I'm compiling a list of allopathic schools which are strictly P/F (with absolutely no internal ranking) for years 1 and 2. So far I have

1. Pritzker
2. Yale
3. Virginia
4. Sinai
5. UCSF
6. Michigan
7. Harvard
8. Baylor

Do you know of any others?
 
Case Western. P/F and the students said that in your dean's letter, all it says about the preclinical years is "performed according to standard." So sounds like a pure P/F.
 
Ebuff said:
I'm compiling a list of allopathic schools which are strictly P/F (with absolutely no internal ranking) for years 1 and 2. So far I have

1. Pritzker
2. Yale
3. Virginia
4. Sinai
5. UCSF
6. Michigan
7. Harvard
8. Baylor

Do you know of any others?
Click to expand...

I was pretty sure Baylor has some type of internal ranking. I mean, they have H/HP/P/F instead of P/F so it's not there just to look good.
 
TheRealMD said:
I was pretty sure Baylor has some type of internal ranking. I mean, they have H/HP/P/F instead of P/F so it's not there just to look good.
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Baylor definitely shouldn't be on there. Their version of P/F is H/HP/P/MP/F, which looks a hell of a lot like A/B/C/D/F.

If we're being this lax, Penn has P/F for the first semester and then the second 2 semesters only add H/P/F. Things then change for the 4th semester, but that's because you're already into the clinic!

P.S., I'd really consider having grades or not in your med school decisions. P/F has been really, really nice in the beginning when you're adjusting to med school, and coming to grips with the fact that everyone around you is super smart so being at the top of the class isn't always going to happen. Plus it means you can go out a drinking a whole lot more.
 
Are there any med schools that are P/F in the clinical years? Also, do any students in a non-ranking pass/fail system actually try to ace every exam?
 
Stanford, for all four years with no ranking.
 
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You'll actually want to have grades for clinical rotations. This is important for residency interviews, as it's a way to differentiate you from other applicants (otherwise all they can go on is your undegraduate medical school).
 
HumbleMD said:
You'll actually want to have grades for clinical rotations. This is important for residency interviews, as it's a way to differentiate you from other applicants (otherwise all they can go on is your undegraduate medical school).
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i'm sure harvard and yale med school grads have a tough time getting residencies.
 
I think most top tier medical schools do that in order to eliminate competition and promote teamwork
 
MDRus said:
i'm sure harvard and yale med school grads have a tough time getting residencies.
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:cough:
Harvard and Yale have grades in clinics buck-o. (and P.S. in SDN land you're not allowed to say that competetive schools help with competetive residencies).

True Luv2sd. They figure you're all type A and work hard enough to get there, that grades would be pretty pointless. Everyone passes, and people work together.

Hopkins, of course, loves to pit its students against eachother.
 
HumbleMD said:
:cough:
Harvard and Yale have grades in clinics buck-o. (and P.S. in SDN land you're not allowed to say that competetive schools help with competetive residencies).

True Luv2sd. They figure you're all type A and work hard enough to get there, that grades would be pretty pointless. Everyone passes, and people work together.

Hopkins, of course, loves to pit its students against eachother.
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Well said. Grades in clinical years are mainly based on a more subjective evaluation of your actual skills as a doctor rather than obscure details like whether you remember the exact branches of the posterior cord of the brachial plexus. P/F your first two years is wonderful. It allows you to learn for the sake of learning, and allows you the flexibility to learn what you want to learn rather than memorizing isolated facts you'll only forget.
 
lord_jeebus said:
:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:



Just wait until you hit your surgery clerkship
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Wait...so when they're "pimping" you in clerkships, will they be asking you all those obscure details you didn't care to learn because your first two years were pass/fail?
 
That link is great, but I lost my MSAR. Does anyone know any middle/lower tier schools (read: lower matriculation stats) with true P/F grading intervals for years 1 & 2? It seems as if all the schools listed above are insanely difficult to get into.
 
Virgil said:
That link is great, but I lost my MSAR. Does anyone know any middle/lower tier schools (read: lower matriculation stats) with true P/F grading intervals for years 1 & 2? It seems as if all the schools listed above are insanely difficult to get into.
Click to expand...

If you use the link posted above, it will give you a list of all of the purely pass/fail schools (two intervals):

Albert Einstein College of Medicine of Yeshiva University 2 Intervals
Boonshoft School of Medicine at Wright State University 2 Intervals
Case Western Reserve University School of Medicine 2 Intervals
David Geffen School of Medicine at UCLA 2 Intervals
Harvard Medical School 2 Intervals
Keck School of Medicine of the University of Southern California 2 Intervals
Loma Linda University School of Medicine 2 Intervals
Mayo Medical School 2 Intervals
McGill University Faculty of Medicine 2 Intervals
Memorial University of Newfoundland Faculty of Medicine 2 Intervals
Mercer University School of Medicine 2 Intervals
Morehouse School of Medicine 2 Intervals
Mount Sinai School of Medicine of New York University 2 Intervals
New York University School of Medicine 2 Intervals
Northern Ontario School of Medicine 2 Intervals
Northwestern University, The Feinberg School of Medicine 2 Intervals
Southern Illinois University School of Medicine 2 Intervals
Stanford University School of Medicine 2 Intervals
UMDNJ-Robert Wood Johnson Medical School 2 Intervals
University of Alabama School of Medicine 2 Intervals
University of Calgary Faculty of Medicine 2 Intervals
University of California, Davis, School of Medicine 2 Intervals
University of California, San Francisco, School of Medicine 2 Intervals
University of Chicago Pritzker School of Medicine 2 Intervals
University of Connecticut School of Medicine 2 Intervals
University of Hawaii John A. Burns School of Medicine 2 Intervals
University of Kentucky College of Medicine 2 Intervals
University of Manitoba Faculty of Medicine 2 Intervals
University of Massachusetts Medical School 2 Intervals
University of Michigan Medical School 2 Intervals
University of Minnesota Medical School 2 Intervals
University of Missouri-Columbia School of Medicine 2 Intervals
University of Saskatchewan College of Medicine 2 Intervals
University of Utah School of Medicine 2 Intervals
University of Virginia School of Medicine 2 Intervals
University of Washington School of Medicine 2 Intervals
Washington University in St. Louis School of Medicine 2 Intervals
 
Virgil said:
Wait...so when they're "pimping" you in clerkships, will they be asking you all those obscure details you didn't care to learn because your first two years were pass/fail?
Click to expand...

If you're lucky. I also got pimped on famous neurosurgeons of the early 20th century (I only knew Cushing) and the members of Parliament-Funkadelic (nailed it). Someone got pimped on important naval battles in American history.

You'll get pimped on important stuff too, of course.
 
Phoenix. said:
If you use the link posted above, it will give you a list of all of the purely pass/fail schools (two intervals):

Albert Einstein College of Medicine of Yeshiva University 2 Intervals
Boonshoft School of Medicine at Wright State University 2 Intervals
Case Western Reserve University School of Medicine 2 Intervals
David Geffen School of Medicine at UCLA 2 Intervals
Harvard Medical School 2 Intervals
Keck School of Medicine of the University of Southern California 2 Intervals
Loma Linda University School of Medicine 2 Intervals
Mayo Medical School 2 Intervals
McGill University Faculty of Medicine 2 Intervals
Memorial University of Newfoundland Faculty of Medicine 2 Intervals
Mercer University School of Medicine 2 Intervals
Morehouse School of Medicine 2 Intervals
Mount Sinai School of Medicine of New York University 2 Intervals
New York University School of Medicine 2 Intervals
Northern Ontario School of Medicine 2 Intervals
Northwestern University, The Feinberg School of Medicine 2 Intervals
Southern Illinois University School of Medicine 2 Intervals
Stanford University School of Medicine 2 Intervals
UMDNJ-Robert Wood Johnson Medical School 2 Intervals
University of Alabama School of Medicine 2 Intervals
University of Calgary Faculty of Medicine 2 Intervals
University of California, Davis, School of Medicine 2 Intervals
University of California, San Francisco, School of Medicine 2 Intervals
University of Chicago Pritzker School of Medicine 2 Intervals
University of Connecticut School of Medicine 2 Intervals
University of Hawaii John A. Burns School of Medicine 2 Intervals
University of Kentucky College of Medicine 2 Intervals
University of Manitoba Faculty of Medicine 2 Intervals
University of Massachusetts Medical School 2 Intervals
University of Michigan Medical School 2 Intervals
University of Minnesota Medical School 2 Intervals
University of Missouri-Columbia School of Medicine 2 Intervals
University of Saskatchewan College of Medicine 2 Intervals
University of Utah School of Medicine 2 Intervals
University of Virginia School of Medicine 2 Intervals
University of Washington School of Medicine 2 Intervals
Washington University in St. Louis School of Medicine 2 Intervals
Click to expand...
Yeah, but which of those are considered middle/lower tier (lower matriculation stats)? I would look each school up myself but I lost my MSAR, so I'm hoping someone can lend me a hand...

Also, why isn't Yale on that list?
 
is it true some schools on the list will keep track of grades for ranking even if they say pass fail?
 
April16MCAT said:
is it true some schools on the list will keep track of grades for ranking even if they say pass fail?
Click to expand...

I think I recall Wayne State doing this? Can't recall all the different systems from my interview days. Check the websites of where you're applying.
 
Add Creighton to the list. True P/F system with no ranking. I am 100% sure.
 
Phoenix. said:
If you use the link posted above, it will give you a list of all of the purely pass/fail schools (two intervals):

Albert Einstein College of Medicine of Yeshiva University 2 Intervals
Boonshoft School of Medicine at Wright State University 2 Intervals
Case Western Reserve University School of Medicine 2 Intervals
David Geffen School of Medicine at UCLA 2 Intervals
Harvard Medical School 2 Intervals
Keck School of Medicine of the University of Southern California 2 Intervals
Loma Linda University School of Medicine 2 Intervals
Mayo Medical School 2 Intervals
McGill University Faculty of Medicine 2 Intervals
Memorial University of Newfoundland Faculty of Medicine 2 Intervals
Mercer University School of Medicine 2 Intervals
Morehouse School of Medicine 2 Intervals
Mount Sinai School of Medicine of New York University 2 Intervals
New York University School of Medicine 2 Intervals
Northern Ontario School of Medicine 2 Intervals
Northwestern University, The Feinberg School of Medicine 2 Intervals
Southern Illinois University School of Medicine 2 Intervals
Stanford University School of Medicine 2 Intervals
UMDNJ-Robert Wood Johnson Medical School 2 Intervals
University of Alabama School of Medicine 2 Intervals
University of Calgary Faculty of Medicine 2 Intervals
University of California, Davis, School of Medicine 2 Intervals
University of California, San Francisco, School of Medicine 2 Intervals
University of Chicago Pritzker School of Medicine 2 Intervals
University of Connecticut School of Medicine 2 Intervals
University of Hawaii John A. Burns School of Medicine 2 Intervals
University of Kentucky College of Medicine 2 Intervals
University of Manitoba Faculty of Medicine 2 Intervals
University of Massachusetts Medical School 2 Intervals
University of Michigan Medical School 2 Intervals
University of Minnesota Medical School 2 Intervals
University of Missouri-Columbia School of Medicine 2 Intervals
University of Saskatchewan College of Medicine 2 Intervals
University of Utah School of Medicine 2 Intervals
University of Virginia School of Medicine 2 Intervals
University of Washington School of Medicine 2 Intervals
Washington University in St. Louis School of Medicine 2 Intervals
Click to expand...

im not sure how accurate this list is since i just had a interview at UM twin cities and they said the top 20% of each class are "honors" the first two years
 
Vanderbilt is also P/F for the first year
 
Penn's is actually a hot issue. P/F for first semester ("Mod 1"), and then H/P/F for the next 2 semesters ("Mod 2"). But, the administration is 50/50 on dropping the H in Mod 2.

(P.S. Plauto) Your sig is awful. Really smacks in the face of people without an acceptance yet.
 
April16MCAT said:
is it true some schools on the list will keep track of grades for ranking even if they say pass fail?
Click to expand...
Yes. That's why I'm compiling this list--I'm looking for schools which are pass/fail and do NOT keep track of grades (internal ranking).
 
HumbleMD said:
Penn's is actually a hot issue. P/F for first semester ("Mod 1"), and then H/P/F for the next 2 semesters ("Mod 2"). But, the administration is 50/50 on dropping the H in Mod 2.

(P.S. Plauto) Your sig is awful. Really smacks in the face of people without an acceptance yet.
Click to expand...

Thanks for clarifying!

ps: I don't see how me celebrating myself can be a smack to anyone. I don't buy this psychology.
 
tulane has a P/F system for the first two years, but they do keep track of what quartile you are in and mention it in your rec letter for residency I think
 
Virgil said:
Yes. That's why I'm compiling this list--I'm looking for schools which are pass/fail and do NOT keep track of grades (internal ranking).
Click to expand...

At Yale, not only is it pass fail, but test-taking is OPTIONAL and ANONYMOUS!!! if you are doing poorly in your own self examination, you are expected to seek help. this system has been around since like the 1930s.
 
Just to play devil's advocate here, don't assume that pure pass/fail Yale-esque systems are inherently better than the veiled-ABCF systems that some schools employs. It has its advantages, yes, but there are advantages to a ranked system as well. I find it to be extremely self-motivating ("good" competition, so to speak) and having a high rank will certainly be to your advantage if you seek a competitive residency (not as much as USMLE and LORs, but it helps to be at the top of your class, for sure).

Obviously, this is a matter of personal choice, but just keep in mind that one particular grading system isn't inherently better than another.
 
The AAMC link doesn't answer the OP's question. Many schools use P/F grading, but keep track of percentiles in subjects and use it to contribute to rank.

Davis is true P/F, no ranking for years 1 & 2.
 
ADeadLois said:
Just to play devil's advocate here, don't assume that pure pass/fail Yale-esque systems are inherently better than the veiled-ABCF systems that some schools employs. It has its advantages, yes, but there are advantages to a ranked system as well. I find it to be extremely self-motivating ("good" competition, so to speak)
Click to expand...
If you find yourself in need of motivation, grades are a great way to do it. Unfortunately, when you use grading systems and ranking in years 1 & 2 you are incenting folks not to collaborate as much as if there were no grades or rank for the first two years.
ADeadLois said:
and having a high rank will certainly be to your advantage if you seek a competitive residency (not as much as USMLE and LORs, but it helps to be at the top of your class, for sure).
Click to expand...
Most schools that I looked at with P/F used class ranking, but only based on performance in years 3 & 4.

To each their own.
 
notdeadyet said:
The AAMC link doesn't answer the OP's question. Many schools use P/F grading, but keep track of percentiles in subjects and use it to contribute to rank.

Davis is true P/F, no ranking for years 1 & 2.
Click to expand...
OK. This is the current list. Although I have not personally confirmed each school yet, I have included only the P/F schools which have no hidden rankings (according to you guys):

1. Davis
2. Creighton
3. Yale
4. Pritzker
5. Stanford
6. Case Western
7. Virginia

This list is probably very incomplete, and I'm sure I might have overlooked a pertinent post. Please feel free to amend/correct this list.
 
I would like to add that grading systems for the preclinical years are one of the least important things that get thrown around on SDN.

1. Preclinical grades don't matter. If other people getting better grades bothers you, stop it. You should not care. Focus on your own education.
2. Even if they do play a role in class rank, much of that is weighted in favor of clinical years.
3. Virtually every school finds some way to assign an "adjective" in your Dean's Letter that indicates how you compare to others in your class, so any school has the potential to generate a "competitive environment." If you focus on getting your work done and doing what you need to do for your career goals, this won't matter.
4. Some schools (like mine) have H/P/F grading but no class rank. Of course that doesn't matter because the Dean's Letter "adjective" still applies.
5. It would take a seriously pathologically competitive "gunner" to actually have an adverse effect on your learning, as long as you take ownership of it. Such people are insane going into med school and are not created by grading policies.
 
notdeadyet said:
If you find yourself in need of motivation, grades are a great way to do it. Unfortunately, when you use grading systems and ranking in years 1 & 2 you are incenting folks not to collaborate as much as if there were no grades or rank for the first two years.

Most schools that I looked at with P/F used class ranking, but only based on performance in years 3 & 4.

To each their own.
Click to expand...

The latter is probably the best way to do it. My point was that a ranked system isn't bad at all and has its own advantages. The fact of that matter is: (1) it really doesn't matter in the long run and (2) people are either naturally competitive or not. I don't think a grading system contributes to collaborative learning or not all that significantly.
 
ADeadLois said:
I don't think a grading system contributes to collaborative learning or not all that significantly.
Click to expand...
I'd be curious. If you rank students one against one another, you disincent them to help each other. Will students still help one another? You bet. But I'd be curious how much. Human nature would say not as much.
 
Virgil said:
I'm compiling a list of allopathic schools which are strictly P/F (with absolutely no internal ranking) for years 1 and 2. So far I have

1. Pritzker
2. Yale

Do you know of any others?
Click to expand...
CCLCM is strictly P/F and has no ranking for all five years (clinical as well as preclinical).
 
Phoenix. said:
If you use the link posted above, it will give you a list of all of the purely pass/fail schools (two intervals):

Albert Einstein College of Medicine of Yeshiva University 2 Intervals
Boonshoft School of Medicine at Wright State University 2 Intervals
Case Western Reserve University School of Medicine 2 Intervals
David Geffen School of Medicine at UCLA 2 Intervals
Harvard Medical School 2 Intervals
Keck School of Medicine of the University of Southern California 2 Intervals
Loma Linda University School of Medicine 2 Intervals
Mayo Medical School 2 Intervals
McGill University Faculty of Medicine 2 Intervals
Memorial University of Newfoundland Faculty of Medicine 2 Intervals
Mercer University School of Medicine 2 Intervals
Morehouse School of Medicine 2 Intervals
Mount Sinai School of Medicine of New York University 2 Intervals
New York University School of Medicine 2 Intervals
Northern Ontario School of Medicine 2 Intervals
Northwestern University, The Feinberg School of Medicine 2 Intervals
Southern Illinois University School of Medicine 2 Intervals
Stanford University School of Medicine 2 Intervals
UMDNJ-Robert Wood Johnson Medical School 2 Intervals
University of Alabama School of Medicine 2 Intervals
University of Calgary Faculty of Medicine 2 Intervals
University of California, Davis, School of Medicine 2 Intervals
University of California, San Francisco, School of Medicine 2 Intervals
University of Chicago Pritzker School of Medicine 2 Intervals
University of Connecticut School of Medicine 2 Intervals
University of Hawaii John A. Burns School of Medicine 2 Intervals
University of Kentucky College of Medicine 2 Intervals
University of Manitoba Faculty of Medicine 2 Intervals
University of Massachusetts Medical School 2 Intervals
University of Michigan Medical School 2 Intervals
University of Minnesota Medical School 2 Intervals
University of Missouri-Columbia School of Medicine 2 Intervals
University of Saskatchewan College of Medicine 2 Intervals
University of Utah School of Medicine 2 Intervals
University of Virginia School of Medicine 2 Intervals
University of Washington School of Medicine 2 Intervals
Washington University in St. Louis School of Medicine 2 Intervals
Click to expand...

Hmmm, weird. At my Wright State interview a med student said that they get actual grades (ABC etc)for their first two years.
 
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