Stanford vs Penn

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Hey all, I was fortunate to get into some of the top schools on my list and need help deciding. Just as a general note, I'm fortunate enough to where money is important for me, but its not a dealbreaker. I have no problem affording these schools.

Stanford

Pros:
-Palo Alto seems like a really nice place with great weather and natural beauty
-Campus is like a resort, very nice facilities and housing for med students
-Lots of interdisciplinary work available with other Stanford schools
-All P/F and no AOA, even apparently rotations post-COVID19 (uncertain if rotation P/F is to stay post-COVID)
-Class seems very diverse and extremely smart
-Close by to many of my friends in silicon valley and is good for startups
-Very good match rates to pretty much anything
-Stanford name has pull in and out of medicine
-Stanford has an awesome football team, and the med school is on the main campus, so you feel like a proper Stanford student, not just a med student.
- I'm currently leaning towards Stanford

Cons:
-It is so expensive. The estimated cost of attendance is nearly half a million. I don't qualify for aid
-Far from home and most family, but I have a few relatives and family friends in the area. I'm also OK with trying out a new location
-Non-diverse patient population, although they tried to emphasize we will rotate through some underserved areas to compensate
-Definitely need a car because public transport sucks and rotations happen in reasonably far away places (think 30-40 mins away)
-I don't think I'm 'woke' enough to live in California

Penn

Pros:
-Most pros very similar to Stanford
-Location is really nice, and is urban which would be a nice change of pace with Philly (go Eagles)
-Med school has lots of prestige in and out of medicine (probably less than Stanford, however)
-Very close to family, already have some connections to hospitals in Philly
-Class also seems very diverse and smart
-Has a significant underserved population

Cons:
-I don't qualify for aid, so also ungodly expensive. Slightly cheaper than Stanford since living in Philly is cheaper than Palo Alto
-Seems like its P/F because of COVID, but it's uncertain if it's going to stay post-COVID19. Grades would suck
-Has AOA, so even if no grades, you still have to try
-Disparate from the rest of Penn - med school is its own thing. No cohesive Penn community
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Seems like you can narrow it down between Penn and UVA, as Stanford is the most expensive and furthest from family. Prestige wise Stanford and Penn are equivalent, with UVA being a small notch below, but still fantastic.

What are the total 4 year cost differences between UVA and Penn?
 
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Banco said:
Seems like you can narrow it down between Penn and UVA, as Stanford is the most expensive and furthest from family. Prestige wise Stanford and Penn are equivalent, with UVA being a small notch below, but still fantastic.

What are the total 4 year cost differences between UVA and Penn?
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The difference between Stanford and Penn is like only 20-30k also. I should say money is definitely a concern for me, but I'm fortunate enough that its not a deal-breaker.
 
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hellokittens said:
Right now it's probably around 100k, but UVA could be way cheaper. The difference between Stanford and Penn is like only 20-30k also. I should say money is definitely a concern for me, but I'm fortunate enough that its not a deal-breaker.
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I mean I suppose 100k is justifiable if money is not a huge factor and prestige is very important to you - though still a tough sell. If you get an even larger scholarship from UVA, then it becomes much harder to justify. But again, it's based on your personal financial situation.

I just think that yes while Penn/Stanford might be at the top of the ivory tower, UVA is very close behind and if MGH is your goal, you can accomplish it from UVA. At the moment though, you might not even know what your goal will be for residency (both specialty wise and personal considerations). Secondly, debt can become a big factor if you end up going into a not so lucrative field/academics.
 
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I’d go Penn for the 100K more unless UVA offers more financial aid

finding research in med school is pretty easy. I’d pay $25K/yr to live in a new city at one of the top programs in the country.
 
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Also, the Penn medical school/medical center is literally right next to the undergrad campus, so I don't understand that con. Stanford and UVA campuses are definitely prettier though.
 
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Banco said:
Also, the Penn medical school/medical center is literally right next to the undergrad campus, so I don't understand that con. Stanford and UVA campuses are definitely prettier though.
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from the students I spoke with, the medical center, although is close, is viewed as its own community cut off from the rest of Penn.
 
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I'd 100% go UPenn. No significant prestige difference between Stanford and Penn in medicine. It's closer to home and beautiful city, as well.
 
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ToBeMD2025 said:
Also, AOA is now post-residency match at Penn so that won’t matter, and preclinicals are P/F too.
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Are preclins going to stay P/F? And regardless, clins are still graded. Stanford isn't even grading those right now. I was under the impression that preclins at penn were P/F for COVID, and they were still deciding whether to make them stay that way. And even if AOA is after residency match, if it's there I'm still going to try for it. It probably helps for fellowship then. If it's not there at all, the stress level is low.
 
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Darth Sidious said:
Are preclins going to stay P/F? And regardless, clins are still graded. Stanford isn't even grading those right now. I was under the impression that preclins at penn were P/F for COVID, and they were still deciding whether to make them stay that way. And even if AOA is after residency match, if it's there I'm still going to try for it. It probably helps for fellowship then. If it's not there at all, the stress level is low.
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Nah, I am 100% certain that Penn has been P/F since like 2016. Ik one of the 4th years we talked to had P/F grading and this was in 2019. Clerkships at pre-covid Penn were H/HP/P/F, but even at pre-covid Stanford clerkships were HP/P/F (not sure if Stanford is going to keep the covid-induced P/F grading, Penn certainly won't be). Idk about whether AOA will matter much for fellowships, but I wouldn't worry too much about it.
Given your situation, it seems like you're really just choosing between Stanford and Penn with a strong lean toward Stanford. Since costs aren't much of an issue for you and cause cost differences aren't huge between the two, I'd say go with Stanford and follow your heart.
 
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ToBeMD2025 said:
Nah, I am 100% certain that Penn has been P/F since like 2016. Ik one of the 4th years we talked to had P/F grading and this was in 2019. Clerkships at pre-covid Penn were H/HP/P/F, but even at pre-covid Stanford clerkships were HP/P/F (not sure if Stanford is going to keep the covid-induced P/F grading, Penn certainly won't be). Idk about whether AOA will matter much for fellowships, but I wouldn't worry too much about it.
Given your situation, it seems like you're really just choosing between Stanford and Penn with a strong lean toward Stanford. Since costs aren't much of an issue for you and cause cost differences aren't huge between the two, I'd say go with Stanford and follow your heart.
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Gotcha thanks for the claification. I know Stanford had HP/P/F for clins before, but from the students I've talked with, there seems to be a huge push to keep it P/F only post COVID too. Who knows if it will be successful. But yeah, It hink I'm choosing Stanford, but I just wanted to be 100% sure in my choice and rationale.
 
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Which home program is stronger residency for the specialty you think you want?
Sounds like you should choose based on Geo related reasons Unless UVA comes through with merit aid further spreading the cost delta unless you truly aren’t taking loans and worried about the money.
 
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proudofmykids said:
Which home program is stronger residency for the specialty you think you want?
Sounds like you should choose based on Geo related reasons Unless UVA comes through with merit aid further spreading the cost delta unless you truly aren’t taking loans and worried about the money.
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Yeah, there was no getting around the CSS profile haha. Being the child of two private practice doctors, you can guess the kind of aid I'm getting that's not merit-based, but which also gives me financial flexibility. I really like Stanford for its entrepreneurial focus and I want to live on the west coast to spice up my geographical experiences. Residency wise I think they are both very good for neurosurgery. One thing I've heard, however, is that it's really tough to go from an east coast med school to a west coast residency, but not the other way around. Going to Stanford I think opens more doors and opportunities in case I want to stay on the west coast longer or if I want to return to the east coast.
EdgeTrimmer said:
I think Penn is better medical school than Stanford for teaching and diversity of patients.
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Teaching-wise, I doubt there any appreciable difference between Penn and Stanford. To be honest, there probably a minuscule difference in instruction for all of the top 20 schools. It's really just preference of the type of curriculum. Stanford is much less structured and allows for more projects/research than what Penn offers and fits my goals more. Sure diversity of patients is worse at Stanford, but honestly, that's a factor that I don't really care a whole lot about. If I want to see underserved populations, there's plenty of clinics in the bay area with Stanford I could rotate through. I'm probably going to end up in private practice or a startup anyways.
 
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I'm surprised you're leaning Stanford after looking at your pros and cons.


Either way, you'll have no problem matching anywhere from either Stanford or Penn (or frankly UVA). Tangibly you will have home student advantage for the in-house residencies at whichever school you go to. Also, if you do want to spice up your life experience geographically, and do see yourself possibly being on the west coast, then Stanford gives you a slight edge. If you've been on the east coast your whole life, that will be taken into account come residency time - so Stanford might be a way to "break into" the west coast, and you'll always have your east coast background if you want to return.
 
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I vote Stanford! The campus is absolutely beautiful, the opportunities and curriculum seem amazing, and winters will be so nice! You will also be able to match anywhere geographically. Based on the COA, I'd either choose Stanford or decide to save money and go to UVA (which is where I'm going and couldn't be happier!! So excited for Charlottesville weather, hiking, wineries, meeting some awesome people!).
 
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If your pros and cons mattered, I’d say go UVA. It has a great reputation and the best pros list that you mentioned. But it seems like you care ultimately about prestige, and everything else doesn’t really matter, so go Penn or Stanford. When it comes to schools of that caliber, people turn down one for the other in each direction all the time. There’s an MD/PhD app who posted his cycle on YouTube recently that’s going to Penn over Harvard and a number of other top schools he was accepted to. There’s no wrong choice at that level, and no one is going to think any more highly of you for going to one vs the other.
 
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Darth Sidious said:
I think I'd disagree with that. Maybe in the world of medicine, they are given similar opportunities. To everyone else, Stanford always beats Penn.
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Well thankfully we're discussing the world of medicine...

OP, I'd probably lean Penn. UVA is a great school, and I think that'd be a perfectly fine choice, but if you're really interested in academia or a competitive specialty, Penn could potentially open a few more doors.
 
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lanzhou_lamian said:
Well thankfully we're discussing the world of medicine...

OP, I'd probably lean Penn. UVA is a great school, and I think that'd be a perfectly fine choice, but if you're really interested in academia or a competitive specialty, Penn could potentially open a few more doors.
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I want my career to be interdisciplinary and be with business/medical devices and startups. Optics-wise, to people outside medicine, which includes VC's and the average person, Stanford always beats Penn - Stanford as a whole institution, that is. There's a reason its HYPSM - there's no Penn there.

In medicine, it seems like they are more or less equal. I think I'm choosing Stanford for its opportunities and proximity to silicon valley. It's the best for my future career in what I described previously and I want a change of scenery. I think I'll have no issue matching anywhere in whatever specialty I choose regardless if it's Penn or Stanford. The smaller class size, extreme flexibility in coursework, and better support for doing your own thing at Stanford easily beats out Penn. Thanks everyone for your advice and input.

Also, just something I noticed: whenever Stanford and Harvard get pitted against each other here, Stanford wins. Whenever Harvard and Penn are pitted against each other, Harvard wins. Whenever Stanford and Penn go head to head, Penn wins haha. I guess you can't have your cake and eat it too.
 
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student981 said:
I go to Penn. It's awesome. You sound terrible. Please don't come here.
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So terrible for saying one school is objectively better than the other in terms of overall prestige.

Where do Penn and Stanford lie?

www.timeshighereducation.com

World University Rankings

The Times Higher Education World University Rankings 2021 include more than 1,500 universities across 93 countries and regions, making them the largest and most diverse university rankings to date.
www.timeshighereducation.com www.timeshighereducation.com
Stanford is 2
Penn is 13

QS World University Rankings 2021 : Top Global Universities

Discover the world's top 1,000 universities. Explore the QS World University Rankings® 2021 based on 6 key ranking indicators.
www.topuniversities.com www.topuniversities.com
Stanford is 2
Penn is 16

cwur.org

World University Rankings 2020-21 | CWUR

The Center for World University Rankings (CWUR) is a leading consulting organization and publisher of the largest academic ranking of global universities.
cwur.org cwur.org
Stanford is 3
Penn is 8

Home

...
roundranking.com roundranking.com
Stanford is 3
Penn is 13

Stanford is 6
Penn is 8

Even in medical school rankings, Stanford beats out Penn in some lists:

Stanford is 4
Penn is 9

themdjourney.com

Med School Rankings Revealed - TheMDJourney

Want to know the best medical schools in the whole word? Well then, here are the med school rankings for the year 2020 revealed!
themdjourney.com themdjourney.com
Stanford is 4
Penn doesn't even make it in top 10

www.timeshighereducation.com

Top 10 universities for medicine 2025

Explore the top 10 universities for medicine, nursing and dentistry degrees worldwide, ranked using the latest Times Higher Education World Subject Rankings data.
www.timeshighereducation.com
Stanford is 5
Penn is 15

The only list where Penn beats Stanford is the PD ranking list, and Penn is 2 and Stanford is 5.

It's pretty clear which school overall has a better reputation, and it's debatable at best which med school has a better reputation.
When money isn't an issue for me, prestige is one of the more important factors, along with curriculum structure.
 
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Darth Sidious said:
Where do Penn and Stanford lie... Hmmm

www.timeshighereducation.com

World University Rankings

The Times Higher Education World University Rankings 2021 include more than 1,500 universities across 93 countries and regions, making them the largest and most diverse university rankings to date.
www.timeshighereducation.com www.timeshighereducation.com
Stanford is 2
Penn is 13

QS World University Rankings 2021 : Top Global Universities

Discover the world's top 1,000 universities. Explore the QS World University Rankings® 2021 based on 6 key ranking indicators.
www.topuniversities.com www.topuniversities.com
Stanford is 2
Penn is 16

cwur.org

World University Rankings 2020-21 | CWUR

The Center for World University Rankings (CWUR) is a leading consulting organization and publisher of the largest academic ranking of global universities.
cwur.org cwur.org
Stanford is 3
Penn is 8

Home

...
roundranking.com roundranking.com
Stanford is 3
Penn is 13

Stanford is 6
Penn is 8

Even in medical school rankings, Stanford beats out Penn in some lists:

Stanford is 4
Penn is 9

themdjourney.com

Med School Rankings Revealed - TheMDJourney

Want to know the best medical schools in the whole word? Well then, here are the med school rankings for the year 2020 revealed!
themdjourney.com themdjourney.com
Stanford is 4
Penn doesn't even make it in top 10

www.timeshighereducation.com

Top 10 universities for medicine 2025

Explore the top 10 universities for medicine, nursing and dentistry degrees worldwide, ranked using the latest Times Higher Education World Subject Rankings data.
www.timeshighereducation.com
Stanford is 5
Penn is 15

The only list where Penn beats Stanford is the PD ranking list, and Penn is 2 and Stanford is 5.

It's pretty clear which school overall has a better reputation, and it's debatable at best which med school has a better reputation.
When money isn't an issue for me, prestige is one of the more important factors, along with curriculum structure. Don't hate me, hate the facts.
Click to expand...
You’re clearly not understanding that it’s your attitude that’s rubbing people the wrong way. I still remember over on the Stanford 2020-2021 discussion thread where you ended up using pixels to paint out hello kitty giving the middle finger...
 
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ingobingo said:
You’re clearly not understanding that it’s your attitude that’s rubbing people the wrong way. I still remember over on the Stanford 2020-2021 discussion thread where you ended up using pixels to paint out hello kitty giving the middle finger...
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Lol you don't remember both sides of the story then lmao
 
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ingobingo said:
Oh I did and the amount of gloating that went on then. Either way, never a time when that’s appropriate IMO.
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There was no middle finger lol ftr. It was just ascii art of hello kitty and I said 'hello kitty says you are being toxic.' But ok, selectively memory. And there was no gloating, just a congratulations post, but thats illegal here on SDN.
 
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Darth Sidious said:
There was no middle finger lol ftr. It was just ascii art of hello kitty and I said 'hello kitty says you are being toxic.' But ok, selectively memory. And there was no gloating, just a congratulations post, but thats illegal here on SDN.
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You have the freedom to say whatever you want (short of threats, etc.) - that’s fine, and I’m not knocking you for that, but your attitude and tactlessness leaves something to be desired.
 
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OP from your more recent posts it just seems like you already are very clear cut favoring Stanford from the get go, layman's prestige is important to you, and money clearly isn't an issue for you, so I'm wondering why you even made the thread...
 
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Banco said:
OP from your more recent posts it just seems like you already are very clear cut favoring Stanford from the get go, layman's prestige is important to you, and money clearly isn't an issue for you, so I'm wondering why you even made the thread...
Click to expand...
I thought about it a lot in the past few days and spoke to many people. When I made this post, I was more unsure. The perspective here did weigh a lot on me. I realized in my initial analysis I neglected to consider the curricular structure, which basically put Stanford as the clear winner.
 
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