How Important is Research/Publication?

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HLxDrummer

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How important is it to have done research in medical school and/or have publications to get an IM residency? I'm not looking for a top program or anything but I would like to stay in my area (WV/PA/OH).

Really I am trying to decide what to do with my summer (I'm a first year). I REALLY want to enjoy it and have fun and earn some money since I'm paying for med school on loans and I haven't had a fun summer since high school. However, I don't want to screw myself and have to go across the country for a residency and drag my wive with me when she is trying to start her career. On top of it I will be proposing/getting married before too long, I need to see my family some, and I need to get some community service done over the summer.

I know a Doc that offered me the data he gathered on screening/diagnostic tests and said he would help me write a paper on it that would probably get published but it isn't in the field I want to get into. Is it worth pursuing this given my goals?

Sorry if this isn't organized very well, I am pretty stressed out studying for my block exams/shelves/worrying about money and christmas coming up/etc. Just looking for some advice.. lol
 
HLxDrummer said:
How important is it to have done research in medical school and/or have publications to get an IM residency? I'm not looking for a top program or anything but I would like to stay in my area (WV/PA/OH).

Really I am trying to decide what to do with my summer (I'm a first year). I REALLY want to enjoy it and have fun and earn some money since I'm paying for med school on loans and I haven't had a fun summer since high school. However, I don't want to screw myself and have to go across the country for a residency and drag my wive with me when she is trying to start her career. On top of it I will be proposing/getting married before too long, I need to see my family some, and I need to get some community service done over the summer.

I know a Doc that offered me the data he gathered on screening/diagnostic tests and said he would help me write a paper on it that would probably get published but it isn't in the field I want to get into. Is it worth pursuing this given my goals?

Sorry if this isn't organized very well, I am pretty stressed out studying for my block exams/shelves/worrying about money and christmas coming up/etc. Just looking for some advice.. lol
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it's nice, but it's not essential. if you have good clinical grades and good step 1 score, you'll likely be competitive for mid-tier programs. you'll need some extra-curriculars to go with that, though.
 
disorder said:
it's nice, but it's not essential. if you have good clinical grades and good step 1 score, you'll likely be competitive for mid-tier programs. you'll need some extra-curriculars to go with that, though.
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Short of UPenn and maybe Case there are no crazy competitive IM residencies in those states and you have already said you are not a gunner. Agree with the above. If you score well on Step 1, grab Honors (or even HP) in your IM clerkship and have a decent personality you should have no problems.

Definitely would say spend as much time as you can with your family during the summer. Now if you have a chance to grab a publication I would say go for that more than community service which frankly residencies do not reallly care about except maybe FM or Peds. IM specific research is helpful but if its a solid pub and you are a 1st or 2nd author it is still a golden opportunity. Only pursue this though if you like research otherwise its a miserable way to spend your only designated med school summer.
 
disorder said:
it's nice, but it's not essential. if you have good clinical grades and good step 1 score, you'll likely be competitive for mid-tier programs. you'll need some extra-curriculars to go with that, though.
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Good to hear. I have pretty good grades so far and I am more of a hands on/clinical guy than textbook so I think I'll do decent in my clinical years as well. I'll have to look into some extra-curriculars, however.

Thank you very much!

inspirationmd said:
Short of UPenn and maybe Case there are no crazy competitive IM residencies in those states and you have already said you are not a gunner. Agree with the above. If you score well on Step 1, grab Honors (or even HP) in your IM clerkship and have a decent personality you should have no problems.

Definitely would say spend as much time as you can with your family during the summer. Now if you have a chance to grab a publication I would say go for that more than community service which frankly residencies do not reallly care about except maybe FM or Peds. IM specific research is helpful but if its a solid pub and you are a 1st or 2nd author it is still a golden opportunity. Only pursue this though if you like research otherwise its a miserable way to spend your only designated med school summer.
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Again, good to hear!

The community service is required by the school for graduation unfortunately (100 hours over four years). I don't have to do a lot now but I would hate to blow it off and get slammed later in life.

I basically hate research (as in sitting in the lab all day), but this is more descriptive/clinical so it wouldn't be as bad as what I have done in the past. I would be a primary author, however... I guess I'll talk to the Doc and see what all is involved and try to get a feel for how long it would take.

Thank you so much, you guys have helped to relieve my stress level a bit, haha!
 
Out of curiosity, if someone is aiming for a more academic IM program, what stats/ECs would be considered competitive then? i.e. is there a certain Step 1 score people should aim for to be considered competitive? Similarly, how many publications do entering IM residents usually have at places like Penn, MGH, etc.? Are publications almost an unspoken requirement at these institutions? I doubt I'll be competitive for those places 🙂o) but it's nice to know what the 'gold standard' is. Also, are non-research ECs really not important for residency applications (how bad would it look if a student only had zero or a few non-research ECs)? Thank you.
 
thlaxer said:
Out of curiosity, if someone is aiming for a more academic IM program, what stats/ECs would be considered competitive then? i.e. is there a certain Step 1 score people should aim for to be considered competitive? Similarly, how many publications do entering IM residents usually have at places like Penn, MGH, etc.? Are publications almost an unspoken requirement at these institutions? I doubt I'll be competitive for those places 🙂o) but it's nice to know what the 'gold standard' is. Also, are non-research ECs really not important for residency applications (how bad would it look if a student only had zero or a few non-research ECs)? Thank you.
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you have a lot questions in there.

what's "more" academic? you mean, "top" tier?
the step score you should aim for is the BEST possible score you can get, regardless.

number of publications required for "top" tier programs?
i doubt there is any firm cut off for this. i am sure if you presented an abstract at a local ACP meeting would be sufficient. the more the merrier.

however, i would like to add that there is NO formula for getting interviews/into these places. the best possible set up will be 240+, Honors in your IM rotation, AOA, research/publication, and insert unique feature about yourself here (you play music in a band). that should make you competitive for anywhere. beyond that, it's luck.
 
thlaxer said:
Out of curiosity, if someone is aiming for a more academic IM program, what stats/ECs would be considered competitive then? i.e. is there a certain Step 1 score people should aim for to be considered competitive? Similarly, how many publications do entering IM residents usually have at places like Penn, MGH, etc.? Are publications almost an unspoken requirement at these institutions? I doubt I'll be competitive for those places 🙂o) but it's nice to know what the 'gold standard' is. Also, are non-research ECs really not important for residency applications (how bad would it look if a student only had zero or a few non-research ECs)? Thank you.
Click to expand...

For top tier, 240 + honors in IM will set u up nicely. Publications are a must if you are looking for an academic program. If the project is easy I say knock it out.
 
disorder said:
you have a lot questions in there.

what's "more" academic? you mean, "top" tier?
the step score you should aim for is the BEST possible score you can get, regardless.

number of publications required for "top" tier programs?
i doubt there is any firm cut off for this. i am sure if you presented an abstract at a local ACP meeting would be sufficient. the more the merrier.

however, i would like to add that there is NO formula for getting interviews/into these places. the best possible set up will be 240+, Honors in your IM rotation, AOA, research/publication, and insert unique feature about yourself here (you play music in a band). that should make you competitive for anywhere. beyond that, it's luck.
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Instatewaiter said:
For top tier, 240 + honors in IM will set u up nicely. Publications are a must if you are looking for an academic program. If the project is easy I say knock it out.
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Thanks! This info helps a lot 🙂.
 
HLxDrummer said:
How important is it to have done research in medical school and/or have publications to get an IM residency? I'm not looking for a top program or anything but I would like to stay in my area (WV/PA/OH).

Really I am trying to decide what to do with my summer (I'm a first year). I REALLY want to enjoy it and have fun and earn some money since I'm paying for med school on loans and I haven't had a fun summer since high school. However, I don't want to screw myself and have to go across the country for a residency and drag my wive with me when she is trying to start her career. On top of it I will be proposing/getting married before too long, I need to see my family some, and I need to get some community service done over the summer.

I know a Doc that offered me the data he gathered on screening/diagnostic tests and said he would help me write a paper on it that would probably get published but it isn't in the field I want to get into. Is it worth pursuing this given my goals?

Sorry if this isn't organized very well, I am pretty stressed out studying for my block exams/shelves/worrying about money and christmas coming up/etc. Just looking for some advice.. lol
Click to expand...

Research was my only saving grace! I did research during summer between M1 & M2. I enjoyed it very much and was paid very well. I was able to do a lot of other things while I was doing research. I was able to publish (first author) my research in a good journal. For me Research=Enjoy! You should do what you enjoy and not what gets you to program x or y
 
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thlaxer said:
Out of curiosity, if someone is aiming for a more academic IM program, what stats/ECs would be considered competitive then? i.e. is there a certain Step 1 score people should aim for to be considered competitive? Similarly, how many publications do entering IM residents usually have at places like Penn, MGH, etc.? Are publications almost an unspoken requirement at these institutions? I doubt I'll be competitive for those places 🙂o) but it's nice to know what the 'gold standard' is. Also, are non-research ECs really not important for residency applications (how bad would it look if a student only had zero or a few non-research ECs)? Thank you.
Click to expand...

seems like the absolute most important things are grades, class rank and AOA. both clinical and preclinical grades matter if the latter are factored into class rank. a good step 1 score 240+ doesn't make up for a deficiency in grades/rank.
 
Instatewaiter said:
For top tier, 240 + honors in IM will set u up nicely. Publications are a must if you are looking for an academic program. If the project is easy I say knock it out.
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I would say AOA this year is make or break for the top programs as well, as well as research
 
HoldTheCoffee said:
Would tend to agree based on my own personal experience from this application cycle.
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I'm not sure I would agree with this. I know plenty of people who have gotten IVs from top 10 programs without being AOA. However, I'm pretty sure their class ranks were quite good.
 
Live4Life said:
I'm not sure I would agree with this. I know plenty of people who have gotten IVs from top 10 programs without being AOA. However, I'm pretty sure their class ranks were quite good.
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AOA and class rank are practically interchangeable. i don't think PDs care as much about whether you were chosen for AOA as much as what it signifies.

in addition to this it seems like being from a top med school affords you more leniency and can translate into more interviews at top programs. unfortunately you won't hear that here because it goes against the SDN mantra that you are on equal footing no matter which med school you go to. this is very obviously not true (not that i ever believed it to be true)....just like it was clear as daylight after i went through med school apps that it absolutely matters where you went to college
 
Live4Life said:
I'm not sure I would agree with this. I know plenty of people who have gotten IVs from top 10 programs without being AOA. However, I'm pretty sure their class ranks were quite good.
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Yeah, I think that having a high class rank can more or less substitute for AOA. Obviously, we all only have anecdotal evidence and it's hard to really tell what's going on, but I know people who have >240, multiple pubs, good LORs who have been snubbed by many "top tier" programs and the only thing I can think of that they don't have is AOA/class rank.
 
This goes to show you that there is no single formula and it is all about human dynamics and program strategy. What makes programs tick depends on what they are looking for - diversity of interests, hard core researches, collaborators, thought leaders, global health, health policy experts,... (good looking people in my case 🙂 ).

FYI : I look very much like my avatar !
 
skinMD said:
AOA and class rank are practically interchangeable. i don't think PDs care as much about whether you were chosen for AOA as much as what it signifies.

in addition to this it seems like being from a top med school affords you more leniency and can translate into more interviews at top programs. unfortunately you won't hear that here because it goes against the SDN mantra that you are on equal footing no matter which med school you go to. this is very obviously not true (not that i ever believed it to be true)....just like it was clear as daylight after i went through med school apps that it absolutely matters where you went to college
Click to expand...

Definitely agree that the medical school you go to plays some role (not a significant one overall, but definitely at the top programs).

So in general:
Step 1 240+, Honors in IM, and some research experience/pubs will put you at a minimum for getting interviews at top programs
If you go to a top 10/25 school, you will automatically have a somewhat easier time getting these interviews
If you do not go to a "top" school, you need class rank/AOA to make you more competitive.
ECs may or may not help

This is purely hypothetical but it seems logical from most of my experience + anecdotal stuff. I think it's ridiculous that your med school "reputation" should matter, since I think clinical training is excellent at most places, but until there's some big systemic changes, I guess that's just how it is.
 
ArcGurren said:
Definitely agree that the medical school you go to plays some role (not a significant one overall, but definitely at the top programs).

So in general:
Step 1 240+, Honors in IM, and some research experience/pubs will put you at a minimum for getting interviews at top programs
If you go to a top 10/25 school, you will automatically have a somewhat easier time getting these interviews
If you do not go to a "top" school, you need class rank/AOA to make you more competitive.
ECs may or may not help

This is purely hypothetical but it seems logical from most of my experience + anecdotal stuff. I think it's ridiculous that your med school "reputation" should matter, since I think clinical training is excellent at most places, but until there's some big systemic changes, I guess that's just how it is.
Click to expand...

i know people from lower tier schools who have matched at top programs without having honors in IM. i wouldn't call that a minimum requirement. it can definitely be overcome with class rank or AOA.

unfortunately there is some atrocious advice being doled out in this forum, most notably in the WAMC thread, especially by a particular individual, that minimizes the competitiveness of top IM programs to a comical degree.
 
ArcGurren said:
I think it's ridiculous that your med school "reputation" should matter, since I think clinical training is excellent at most places, but until there's some big systemic changes, I guess that's just how it is.
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In general I would hazard to guess that it's not "reputation" that adcoms are looking at but rather "do we know what the clinical training is like at school X?"

Many faculty members tend to train at top institutions so naturally they would be familiar with the clinical training at those institutions (assuming a substantive degree of auto-correlation in quality from year to year). When it comes to schools with less of a national reach, then of course you would be curious about the kind of training that people get there.

Just to give one example, a few years ago we had an applicant from Texas Tech El Paso. When it came time for the committee to discuss this particular applicant, one of the committee members raised her hand and said, "El Paso? I didn't even know they had a medical school." No one around the table had ever met anyone from El Paso, no one knew what the clinical training was like there, no one knew whether an El Paso "honors" was like a Michigan "honors" (i.e., the real deal) or whether it was more like a Harvard Medical School "honors" (i.e., garbage, since pretty much all HMS students get honors and the school leans on clerkship directors if they try to fail someone), etc. We just had very little information that could be used to evaluate the applicant. In the end she just wasn't competitive enough for us to rank her high enough, but we did give her due consideration.
 
twright said:
We just had very little information that could be used to evaluate the applicant. In the end she just wasn't competitive enough for us to rank her high enough, but we did give her due consideration.
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That's unnerving. I get that there are limitations but it sucks things have to be like that - though it's nice to get a dose of reality here!
 
twright said:
whether it was more like a Harvard Medical School "honors" (i.e., garbage, since pretty much all HMS students get honors and the school leans on clerkship directors if they try to fail someone), etc.
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Not true!
 
LovelyBRass said:
That's unnerving. I get that there are limitations but it sucks things have to be like that - though it's nice to get a dose of reality here!
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Why is it unnerving? There are very few NEOUCOM-trained faculty members at UCLA, so it should not be surprising that the adcoms would feel like they have very little to go on when it comes to evaluating NEOUCOM applicants.
 
well if ppl want to talk about how school rank plays a role in invites at top-tier programs i think my experience could be pretty informative... i come from a mid-tier school, 265+ step 1, junior AOA, couple of pubs, random ECs that are good to talk about in an interview. basically im not sure i could have done much better coming from a mid-tier institution, and i was told (here and by advisers) that applying to IM i will get interviews everywhere. In reality my experience was very hit and miss. Got some big name schools not others, UCSF and BWH rejections, MGH and hopkins iv, columbia, but not upenn ect. At first I was concerned that maybe there was something bad in LOR or deans letter but at several interviews they noted how strong my letters were. Moreover several interviewers, even at the very top programs (MGH and hopkins), commented on how strong an application i had. all this led me to believe that ultimately some schools just preferred to fill up their interview spots with better names, and others better stats. this is not to say no one from a mid-tier school can get an interview at UCSF or BWH, just that coming from an avrg med school will make this process somewhat of a crapshoot regardless of stats (unless ur aiming for 275+ step 1 then maybe ull get a look from everyone).

Having said all that, overall i cant say i can complain. My rank list will still be filled with great programs, none of which i would be disappointed going to, and all of which will train me well and give me all the opportunities i need going forward. So is the difference meaningful? i guess ill tell you on march 15th.
 
Rankings?, don't talk about rankings. Are you kidding me? School rankings?
(Playoffs, don't talk about playoffs. Are you kidding me? Playoffs?)..if you dont know.

Are we talking about primary care or research? When I started, my school was top 10, now we're a mere top 20. Does that hurt my chances despite my 94%ile boards, my first author publication............... and my nobel prize?
 
twright said:
Why is it unnerving? There are very few NEOUCOM-trained faculty members at UCLA, so it should not be surprising that the adcoms would feel like they have very little to go on when it comes to evaluating NEOUCOM applicants.
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It's unnerving because it supposedly "doesn't matter where you go to school" but it very plainly does.
 
Yeah your school's rep seems to matter quite a bit for some places based on my experience as well. I think this is actually covered to some extent in the WAMC thread if you dig early enough. Kind of unfortunate that it seems to matter so much for some places, but this is really just a part of life. Think about the people who attend an Ivy for undergrad... their kids automatically have a "1-up" on ours when they apply to the same school for college.
 
LovelyBRass said:
It's unnerving because it supposedly "doesn't matter where you go to school" but it very plainly does.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure who you heard that from, or what planet they're from, but that's patently false.

Does it matter WRT the kind of physician you'll become? Unlikely.

Does it matter for the the residency and/or fellowship you'll be able to secure? F*** yeah flapjack. Anyone who says otherwise is clearly on an AdCom (or a student) at a crappy school.

(Says the alum of a pretty crappy school.)
 
gutonc said:
I'm not sure who you heard that from, or what planet they're from, but that's patently false.

Does it matter WRT the kind of physician you'll become? Unlikely.

Does it matter for the the residency and/or fellowship you'll be able to secure? F*** yeah flapjack. Anyone who says otherwise is clearly on an AdCom (or a student) at a crappy school.

(Says the alum of a pretty crappy school.)
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The planet they're from is called SDN Pre-Allo. Please shed your wisdom because over there, small bubble > reality from some random med student.
 
How much does it matter if your prior research/abstracts, etc. was in another field if you meet the other "stats" like 240+ Step 1 and H in 3rd year IM? Is it necessary to get a IM specific project going now in the 3rd year?
 
Rivaroxaban said:
How much does it matter if your prior research/abstracts, etc. was in another field if you meet the other "stats" like 240+ Step 1 and H in 3rd year IM? Is it necessary to get a IM specific project going now in the 3rd year?
Click to expand...

Research can be any field. Research should be completed before ERAS goes out.
 
Rivaroxaban said:
How much does it matter if your prior research/abstracts, etc. was in another field if you meet the other "stats" like 240+ Step 1 and H in 3rd year IM? Is it necessary to get a IM specific project going now in the 3rd year?
Click to expand...

Much less of an issue in IM than in other fields. In IM, research is viewed as proof of your intellectual curiousity. In other (admittedly more competitive fields) it tends to be viewed more as proof of your dedication to that specialty.

So if you're going for Derm and you have cards or neuro research, you're likely to get a lot of questions about what you were thinking, why you were wasting your time and how can you prove you want to be a dermatologist, not just take home a dermatologist's paycheck. (I have a couple of friends from grad school who had this exact experience).

The one caveat to this is for down the road if you're applying for fellowship. If you have a lot of research in one area that's not your fellowship area (or closely related), you'll definitely get asked about that. But there's no need to get an IM-related project going now just to buff your CV. Do it if you want to do it.
 
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