love or hate towards post-bac med students

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Cold Penguin

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Okay, so the season of orientation is in the air, and I just want to ask you why I see eyes getting bigger whenever I tell people that I am a post bac student. From my hasty assumption, I guess that when traditional med students hear that someone is a postbac med student, you are either thinking that I didn't work hard enough to get into med school at the first try or didn't decide to go to med school early enough (as if I was supposed to). In my case, the answer is neither, so I have even more to say. I led a fine career in a field that is far far from science (that is social sciences and humanities) and arrived at the conclusion of becoming a doctor in a middle of my other successful career. So, whenever I see people who give me a surprised look on their face, it only leaves me much to explain, and I thought I'd clarify some stuff. I am so-called Type III post-bac.

Type I Post bac: people who were pre-med and finished taking all pre-req as an undergraduate. Their undergraduate major was some field of science, predominantly biology or chemistry. Their low GPA or low MCAT score force them to take further classes after finishing up their undergraduate degree

Type II Post bac: people who majored in some field of science such as neuroscience, chemical engineering, etc but never had a serious intention of going to medical school. Then, they decide to go to medical school so become post-bac students and finish up the rest of the pre-med requirement or re-take the required classes again because they took these classes too long ago as well as having to fulfill few more pre-req done.

Type III Post bac: people who come from a field that is totally different from science (i.e. music, art, history, communication, etc) They start from scratch as they declare themselves as pre-med. Often, many have led a successful career in other field and have found the field of medicine to be a more fulfilling career or to help them build more edge on their on-going career (i.e. refugee worker, social agency counselor, mental health coordinator, etc.)

To be honest, I literally have seen people who roll their eyes when I introduce myself as a post-bac student. I don't mean to offend any traditional med students who head out to med school straight from college, but I had a couple of 1Ms (all traditional med students) who were too brave enough to ask for my age and marriage status, as if they were implying, " aren't you old to start med school? Oh my gosh, when are you going to get married?" I also had a guy who told me,"oh, I am sorry. I guess you can't join us the cocktail tonight then," with an obvious blushing on his face. (I kinda look young and he did not know I already had a serious boyfriend. I am not interested in that kinda cocktail stuff anyways). I igonred them all thinking some people, who never had opportunities to taste the real world over the ivory tower, do not know how to interact with others with respect.

So, you get the idea why I am wondering about this topic. As a Type III post-bac student, I feel very offended whenever I run into this kind of mishaps. By now, I got over it, but it's still a lingering issue for many post-bac med students out there.

CP
 
Cold Penguin said:
Okay, so the season of orientation is in the air, and I just want to ask you why I see eyes getting bigger whenever I tell people that I am a post bac student.
Click to expand...


Hi there,
Most of this stuff will not mean anything at all once class gets started. You cannot afford to concern yourself with "what you believe other people think" or the "naive comments of immature people" because this is a waste of your precious time. Anything that does not further your career in medicine is a waste of your energy. Time is the most expensive thing at any medical school and you do not want to be wasting it.

The only concern that you need to concentrate on is getting the highest grades possible in your coursework. You have an opportunity here and it is up to you to make the best of it. If you are getting the job done and getting the grades, then you probably won't have too much time to worry about anyone's "thought's" or "comments" except your own.

There should be a mandatory "check your ego at the door" exercise during orientation week for every medical student.

njbmd 🙂
 
Yeah, I agree with you. I look ahead and get what needs to be done. In a way, orientation is kinda an ego-building and ego-breaking exercise.

CP


njbmd said:
Hi there,
Most of this stuff will not mean anything at all once class gets started. You cannot afford to concern yourself with "what you believe other people think" or the "naive comments of immature people" because this is a waste of your precious time. Anything that does not further your career in medicine is a waste of your energy. Time is the most expensive thing at any medical school and you do not want to be wasting it.

The only concern that you need to concentrate on is getting the highest grades possible in your coursework. You have an opportunity here and it is up to you to make the best of it. If you are getting the job done and getting the grades, then you probably won't have too much time to worry about anyone's "thought's" or "comments" except your own.

There should be a mandatory "check your ego at the door" exercise during orientation week for every medical student.

njbmd 🙂
Click to expand...
 
At my med school, there's enough students who went the nontrad route/waitlisted/reapplied that I can't imagine people would mistreat others for doing post-bacc. Just ignore the people who give you a hard time. Remember, your best revenge is to get into med school and show them your stuff. 😀
 
njbmd said:
There should be a mandatory "check your ego at the door" exercise during orientation week for every medical student.
Click to expand...
My friends and I were just talking about that speech from last year during our "last night of freedom" - spent drinking coffee and catching up on summers 🙂.
 
Cold Penguin said:
To be honest, I literally have seen people who roll their eyes when I introduce myself as a post-bac student. I don't mean to offend any traditional med students who head out to med school straight from college, but I had a couple of 1Ms (all traditional med students) who were too brave enough to ask for my age and marriage status, as if they were implying, " aren't you old to start med school? Oh my gosh, when are you going to get married?" I also had a guy who told me,"oh, I am sorry. I guess you can't join us the cocktail tonight then," with obvious blushing on his face. (I kinda look young and he did not know I already had a serious boyfriend. I am not interested in that kinda cocktail stuff anyways). I igonred them all thinking some people, who never had opportunities to taste the real world over the ivory tower, do not know who to interact with others with respect.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure you are reading them right. You have to realize that many folks in med school are coming straight from college and are starting to have self doubt as to whether they made the right decision, or are good enough to make it down that path, etc. Many are people who were taking premed since their AP courses in high school and see medicine as somewhat of a holy grail. Seeing someone older who is changing careers rather than picking a path and being done, someone who took a different, perhaps more scenic route and yet still got to the same place they did, or someone who didn't spend the last 4 years convincing themselves that there is only one desirable job out there rattles their world a bit. Also the younger single crowd is particularly sensitive to the M/F ratio, the percentage of potential dates, and so the fact that someone is older or involved may be relative to their odds calculations-- Take it as a complement. And I've med 20 year old women in med school already stressed about when they are going to have time to have kids, so to them someone older might represent someone who really highlights that concern.
 
Nobody cares once you are in med school, only premeds care.
 
Cold Penguin said:
Okay, so the season of orientation is in the air, and I just want to ask you why I see eyes getting bigger whenever I tell people that I am a post bac student. From my hasty assumption, I guess that when traditional med students hear that someone is a postbac med student, you are either thinking that I didn't work hard enough to get into med school at the first try or didn't decide to go to med school early enough (as if I was supposed to). In my case, the answer is neither, so I have even more to say. I led a fine career in a field that is far far from science (that is social sciences and humanities) and arrived at the conclusion of becoming a doctor in a middle of my other successful career. So, whenever I see people who give me a surprised look on their face, it only leaves me much to explain, and I thought I'd clarify some stuff. I am so-called Type III post-bac.

Type I Post bac: people who were pre-med and finished taking all pre-req as an undergraduate. Their undergraduate major was some field of science, predominantly biology or chemistry. Their low GPA or low MCAT score force them to take further classes after finishing up their undergraduate degree

Type II Post bac: people who majored in some field of science such as neuroscience, chemical engineering, etc but never had a serious intention of going to medical school. Then, they decide to go to medical school so become post-bac students and finish up the rest of the pre-med requirement or re-take the required classes again because they took these classes too long ago as well as having to fulfill few more pre-req done.

Type III Post bac: people who come from a field that is totally different from science (i.e. music, art, history, communication, etc) They start from scratch as they declare themselves as pre-med. Often, many have led a successful career in other field and have found the field of medicine to be more fulfilling career or to help them build more edge on their on-going career (i.e. refugee worker, social agency counselor, mental health coordinator, etc.)

To be honest, I literally have seen people who roll their eyes when I introduce myself as a post-bac student. I don't mean to offend any traditional med students who head out to med school straight from college, but I had a couple of 1Ms (all traditional med students) who were too brave enough to ask for my age and marriage status, as if they were implying, " aren't you old to start med school? Oh my gosh, when are you going to get married?" I also had a guy who told me,"oh, I am sorry. I guess you can't join us the cocktail tonight then," with obvious blushing on his face. (I kinda look young and he did not know I already had a serious boyfriend. I am not interested in that kinda cocktail stuff anyways). I igonred them all thinking some people, who never had opportunities to taste the real world over the ivory tower, do not know who to interact with others with respect.

So, you get the idea why I am wondering about this topic. As a Type III post-bac student, I feel very offended whenever I run into this kind of mishaps. By now, I got over it, but it's still a lingering issue for many post-bac med students out there.

CP
Click to expand...

Perhaps eyes are widening because you're doing something which many traditional students could never imagine doing - changing careers late in life especially to medicine.

Perhaps they're shocked that someone who hasn't been immersed in sciences since middle school was able to catch up in so short a time and meet them as equals in med I.

I wouldn't worry about missing a few parties if I were you. You've already got that aspect of your life taken care of.

Hit the books hard and let your grades do the talking for you.

Best of luck. Keep us posted.
 
whoa, i didn't realize that med students could be such a-holes. but then again, they were once pre-meds, so it all makes sense i guess. i think njbmd said it best - just do the best you can in your classes, because that's what you're there for anyway. i'm sure you'll find a group of people that aren't as pompous and condescending as those other folks...
 
hardy said:
Nobody cares once you are in med school, only premeds care.
Click to expand...
Quoted for emphasis.
 
utorontograd said:
Perhaps eyes are widening because you're doing something which many traditional students could never imagine doing - changing careers late in life especially to medicine.

Perhaps they're shocked that someone who hasn't been immersed in sciences since middle school was able to catch up in so short a time and meet them as equals in med I.

I wouldn't worry about missing a few parties if I were you. You've already got that aspect of your life taken care of.

Hit the books hard and let your grades do the talking for you.

Best of luck. Keep us posted.
Click to expand...
Hate to break up this nontrad love fest, but Type III post bacc are those who have shown they chose a career they didn't want. Whose to say they won't get sick of medicine and become a lawyer in 5 years? Proven flakes if you ask me.
 
MWillie said:
Hate to break up this nontrad love fest, but Type III post bacc are those who have shown they chose a career they didn't want. Whose to say they won't get sick of medicine and become a lawyer in 5 years? Proven flakes if you ask me.
Click to expand...

Dude. Everybody makes mistakes. Do you suggest that people who get tired of thier careers stick with them against the possibility of offending your sensibilities?

P. Bear, MD
Emergency Medicine Resident
Born During the Johnson Adminstration
 
MWillie said:
Hate to break up this nontrad love fest, but Type III post bacc are those who have shown they chose a career they didn't want. Whose to say they won't get sick of medicine and become a lawyer in 5 years? Proven flakes if you ask me.
Click to expand...

From a 'proven flake' --

I think a lot of us would have been OK with staying in our old careers but didn't fully realize what medicine offered until later in life. We might not have had overbearing parents drilling in our heads that, darnit, we're going to be physicians and enrolling us in science summer camps, etc. We might not have had any health care workers in our family to give us perspective towards the field.

The med school application process forces you to dive deep, taking courses, volunteering in health care settings, and shadowing physicians. Beyond that, a lot of us wouldn't make the change from a comfortable life unless we knew that it was the right change.
 
Yeah of course you nontrads aren't going to see my side of the story, so I'm not even gonna bother to try to sway you. Just remember being a nontrad has advantages and disadvantages, so just deal with it. And the better than traditional attitude of utoronto is just as bad as any attitude of mine.
 
MWillie said:
Yeah of course you nontrads aren't going to see my side of the story, so I'm not even gonna bother to try to sway you.
Click to expand...

You're right. You know our hopes and dreams better than us.
 
MWillie said:
Yeah of course you nontrads aren't going to see my side of the story, so I'm not even gonna bother to try to sway you. Just remember being a nontrad has advantages and disadvantages, so just deal with it. And the better than traditional attitude of utoronto is just as bad as any attitude of mine.
Click to expand...

I think you're worried that a non-traditional student is going to take your spot in medical school and this is unfair because he may only have half the time available for a careeer as you.
 
Darko said:
From a 'proven flake' --

I think a lot of us would have been OK with staying in our old careers but didn't fully realize what medicine offered until later in life. We might not have had overbearing parents drilling in our heads that, darnit, we're going to be physicians and enrolling us in science summer camps, etc. We might not have had any health care workers in our family to give us perspective towards the field.

The med school application process forces you to dive deep, taking courses, volunteering in health care settings, and shadowing physicians. Beyond that, a lot of us wouldn't make the change from a comfortable life unless we knew that it was the right change.
Click to expand...

Hey, I applied to medical school on a whim as I had most of the pre-reqs. I did pretty well on the MCAT taking it "cold" even after marking "c" on all the organic chemistry questions. I applied to only two schools, both in my home state, and was accepted to both.
 
MWillie said:
Yeah of course you nontrads aren't going to see my side of the story, so I'm not even gonna bother to try to sway you. Just remember being a nontrad has advantages and disadvantages, so just deal with it. And the better than traditional attitude of utoronto is just as bad as any attitude of mine.
Click to expand...

I think you are 100% right. I'm ashamed. I actually think there should be a seperate (but equal!) set of med schools for us proverbial illegal border crossers. Just in case (or more than likely, true) we flake out (again and again and again..WILL WE EVER LEARN??), we wouldn't want our attrition rate to lower the school ranking. That just might dash your Johns Hopkins residency hopes and dreams. DAMN US ALL!!
 
Just a thought, but the presupposition of this post seems skewed to me. Why should non-trad/post-bac medical students be treated or viewed any differently than a traditional med student? Love and hate are nearly antithetical emotions, neither of which capture my neutral feelings toward trad/post-bac/and non-trad students... I am loath to drop such a hackneyed quip here, but "we're all in the same boat, now," being that we all made it into a medical school. Being a "traditional" medical student, I don't care what you did before you chose medicine, nor do I think you are any less of a qualified medical student for having chosen another career before medicine. As long as you don't defer to claiming a "greater life experience" or an equally obnoxious "superior understanding of the world" as a result of your experiences, I don't care. The issue shouldn't be "love or hate" toward non-trads, but an equal, professional respect to all classmates and colleagues.

Perhaps I'm just a naive "traditional" med student fresh out of college, though. It's threads like these that make me realize what a waste of time SDN can be. 👎
 
Cold Penguin said:
To be honest, I literally have seen people who roll their eyes when I introduce myself as a post-bac student. ...As a Type III post-bac student, I feel very offended whenever I run into this kind of mishaps.
Click to expand...


Odd. I was a "type III" postbac as well, now M1, and have yet to receive a reaction like that. No one even cared.
 
Panda Bear said:
I think you're worried that a non-traditional student is going to take your spot in medical school and this is unfair because he may only have half the time available for a careeer as you.
Click to expand...
I'm not some stupid premed and you should stop inserting your pretentious signature every other post you make. You're just sad you're older than half your attendings.
 
OrnotMajestic said:
I think you are 100% right. I'm ashamed. I actually think there should be a seperate (but equal!) set of med schools for us proverbial illegal border crossers. Just in case (or more than likely, true) we flake out (again and again and again..WILL WE EVER LEARN??), we wouldn't want our attrition rate to lower the school ranking. That just might dash your Johns Hopkins residency hopes and dreams. DAMN US ALL!!
Click to expand...

I wish I went to a school with all nontrads, then I'd be top of my class without even trying.
 
Dude,

WTF. You are a post-bacc. GTFO of the allo forum. This place is for club members only!







Just kidding! 😛 🙂

I've met some of the post-bacc students in my school's post-bacc program, and so far all of them have been very cool and likable people. I don't have much of a chance to interact with them in the classroom, because they watch the lectures in a separate place. But I have interacted with them in the place I live.

I don't know how your school is, but the students around here don't seem to make any judgments or assumptions about anyone else. And if people give you a condescending reaction (rolled eyes, or wide-eyed shock, etc.) just dont pay attention to them. That's crap.

Take care and good luck applying in the future!
 
MWillie said:
Yeah of course you nontrads aren't going to see my side of the story, so I'm not even gonna bother to try to sway you.
Click to expand...

LOL - fortunately adcoms also don't share your point of view -- the number of nontrads has been increasing annually pretty steadilly for the last decade or two. Truth of the matter is that someone who was successful in one demanding high pressure service oriented career is regarded as someone more likely to succeed in another. Someone straight out of college has never proven themselves in any forum other than the MCAT, which is well and nice, but not really relevant to real life.
 
MWillie said:
I wish I went to a school with all nontrads, then I'd be top of my class without even trying.
Click to expand...

The first couple of years perhaps that is true of some nontrads. But part of the reason people skills are relevant in med school admissions is that folks who have them tend to excel in the latter years. Also your patients will largely be older than you and will all feel that traditional doctors are too young, but not so much the nontrads -- gives them an immediate advantage. 🙂
 
MWillie said:
Hate to break up this nontrad love fest, but Type III post bacc are those who have shown they chose a career they didn't want. Whose to say they won't get sick of medicine and become a lawyer in 5 years? Proven flakes if you ask me.
Click to expand...

On the flip side... traditional undergrad biology majors who go straight into med school because their dad and their granddad was a doctor before them... what makes you think they won't flip out and decide medicine isn't for them during intern year?

People in my class don't seem to give a crap if someone's non-trad. Maybe it's because I look 23 and don't bother to broadcast my real age 😉 or maybe they just aren't pretentious blue-blood wankers with a sense of entitlement like you 🙄
 
ForbiddenComma said:
On the flip side... traditional undergrad biology majors who go straight into med school because their dad and their granddad was a doctor before them... what makes you think they won't flip out and decide medicine isn't for them during intern year?

People in my class don't seem to give a crap if someone's non-trad. Maybe it's because I look 23 and don't bother to broadcast my real age 😉 or maybe they just aren't pretentious blue-blood wankers with a sense of entitlement like you 🙄
Click to expand...
The hell are you talking about, traditional med students are by the ones who took the time to properly evaluate what they want to do through shadowing, volunteering, research and justified it in their applications. This demonstrates good planning and foresight, which is more than what most nontrads did with their previous (failed) career. Have fun being some traditional attending's lil bitch resident when he/she is 10 years younger than you.
 
MWillie said:
Yeah of course you nontrads aren't going to see my side of the story, so I'm not even gonna bother to try to sway you. Just remember being a nontrad has advantages and disadvantages, so just deal with it. And the better than traditional attitude of utoronto is just as bad as any attitude of mine.
Click to expand...

I didn't say the non-traditional route was better than the traditional route. Where did you get this? Personally, I think you stop trying to live up to your signature - "one mean bastard." It just doesn't have the same effect when it's on an anonymous medical school forum.

Why don't you try bein' yo' bad self on the "mean streets" of Missouri in between studying for anatomy and physiology class tough guy?
 
crazy_cavalier said:
...
I've met some of the post-bacc students in my school's post-bacc program, and so far all of them have been very cool and likable people. I don't have much of a chance to interact with them in the classroom, because they watch the lectures in a separate place. But I have interacted with them in the place I live.

I don't know how your school is, but the students around here don't seem to make any judgments or assumptions about anyone else. And if people give you a condescending reaction (rolled eyes, or wide-eyed shock, etc.) just dont pay attention to them. That's crap.

Take care and good luck applying in the future!
Click to expand...

agreed. Non-trads are cool!

I've found most people are cool about my non-trad status. I'm 42, so I'm not the oldest in my class, but I'm running him or her a close second (I still don't know who the 43-year-old is). Most people tell me they think it's awesome.
I'd say don't wave it in people's faces, don't obsess about it, and just go on with life. Some people will think you're awesome, and some will think you suck, and that's just how it is.

I will admit, however, that orientation for med school last week felt just like starting high school, and I was concerned for several days ("What if no one LIIIIIIKES me?"). I had to laugh at myself, but the feelings were real. But they're passing. We're all here to work and people are generally pulling together, and it's no big deal.
 
MWillie said:
The hell are you talking about, traditional med students are by the ones who took the time to properly evaluate what they want to do through shadowing, volunteering, research and justified it in their applications. This demonstrates good planning and foresight, which is more than what most nontrads did with their previous (failed) career. Have fun being some traditional attending's lil bitch resident when he/she is 10 years younger than you.
Click to expand...

Yep, and I'm sure you won't have any attendings during your third year who weren't non-trads themselves. Be sure and broadcast your opinions during all of your rotations... I'm sure they'll give you high honors for your respect of your colleagues. If not, well hey... it's not like an evaluation from a non-trad attending counts towards your grade. Go nuts!

btw, I'm not 32... however one of the top students in our class is a late-30s nurse. Stupid admissions people didn't realize that she has no right to be a doctor.

2/10 on the troll scale
 
MWillie said:
The hell are you talking about, traditional med students are by the ones who took the time to properly evaluate what they want to do through shadowing, volunteering, research and justified it in their applications. This demonstrates good planning and foresight, which is more than what most nontrads did with their previous (failed) career. Have fun being some traditional attending's lil bitch resident when he/she is 10 years younger than you.
Click to expand...

Dude, are you for real?

I got news for you, life is highly resistant to planning. You'll find this out eventually. I have a good deal of respect for my younger colleagues who went straight from high school to college to medical school but I assure you that at 18, you have no idea what your priorities are going to be at 42 and you may look back twenty years from now at your dimly remembered youthful ideas and laugh that you ever held them, so ridiculous will they seem.

Now that I have a wife, four kids, (got our adopted baby yesterday!), and a real life I can't believe some of the things I thought were so important twenty years ago.

As for being some attending's bitch, well, if you let yourself get treated like a bitch then you have nobody to blame but yourself. Most of my attendings and senior residents have been very polite and respectful and I return the favor but not copping an attitude. The worst I've been subjected to is some good-natured and richly deserved ribbing for doing the occasional idiotic thing.

I rarely say this but you don't seem mature enough to be trusted with other people's lives. Fortunately the scales will fall from your eyes after the first couple of weeks of medical school when you realize that nobody gives a **** what you did before medical school and you will be all right.

P. Bear, MD
Emergency Medicine Resident
Old Enough to be Your Daddy
 
Law2Doc said:
You have some misconceptions. Failed careers don't frequently get you into med school. Successful ones do.
Click to expand...

But to be fair I have failed at a few business ventures.
 
Panda Bear said:
But to be fair I have failed at a few business ventures.
Click to expand...

That's the nature of business, or anything really. It really is a matter of testing an educated guess as to what will be lucrative. Failure in a few ventures doesn't mean you're a failure. It's part and parcel with the process.

Hmmm... sounds pretty scientific.

Academia isn't so forgiving though, especially not medicine.
 
Panda Bear said:
I rarely say this but you don't seem mature enough to be trusted with other people's lives. Fortunately the scales will fall from your eyes after the first couple of weeks of medical school when you realize that nobody gives a **** what you did before medical school and you will be all right.

P. Bear, MD
Emergency Medicine Resident
Old Enough to be Your Daddy
Click to expand...

Does this look like pre-allo forum to you? The first couple weeks of medical school made me lose respect for nontrads (AKA the ones sitting in the front row asking too damn many basic questions during class). I can't wait to take the boards with you all.

Mwillie
Medical Student
Washington University in Saint Louis
 
MWillie said:
I wish I went to a school with all nontrads, then I'd be top of my class without even trying.
Click to expand...

Considering your posts here and other threads, I think you are just a troll. Pretentious self-absorbed dinguses like you only exist in movies, books and caricatures.
 
Law2Doc said:
And at Wash U, I guess.
Click to expand...

I wonder if that's a factor in the USNews ranking? The second thing they measure behind research grant money is ego circumference.
 
MWillie said:
Does this look like pre-allo forum to you? The first couple weeks of medical school made me lose respect for nontrads (AKA the ones sitting in the front row asking too damn many basic questions during class). I can't wait to take the boards with you all.

Mwillie
Medical Studen
Washington University in Saint Louis
Click to expand...


Dude. You are almost too good to be a troll.
 
Panda Bear said:
Dude. You are almost too good to be a troll.
Click to expand...

I'm just waiting on pins and needles for him to discuss how tired he is of minorities and public university graduates in his class.
 
Law2Doc said:
I'm happy my school apparently goes by the circumferance of something else. 🙂
Click to expand...

Bigger is better, right? 😉
 
Law2Doc said:
Gives a whole new meaning to head of the class. :laugh:
Click to expand...

*ZING!!* :laugh:

Does that make that person a total di...

Oh dear, that's just too easy.
 
Law2Doc said:
I'm happy my school apparently goes by the circumferance of something else. 🙂
Click to expand...

L2D - now I want to know the name of that school, please!! :laugh:
 
Hi there,
Since this thread has been hijacked and has degenerated into the depths of LAMENESS, as supermod, I get the last word... Closing.

njbmd 😀
 
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