During M2 year- What can I do to be better prepared for Step 1?

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Alright....i will be starting M2 in about a month. And already thinking about Step 1.

Question is...should I study differently this year (refer back to 1st year textbooks, reference books etc..)? Did you do anything different during the second year to get ready for Step 1? Did you use any Step1 books during the year?

Thanks
 
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hey man, im in the same boat as you and I thikn the best thing to do is just read this forum sporatically (although now most people are done with boards, so you will have to read old posts). But just gradually read the advice threads over some time and I think you start to pick up different strategies people have and start to see which ones might work best for your learning style.

I think overall there is no way to know anything for sure until the windmill that is MS-2 hits us.
 
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going into step 1 studying, I was very comfortable with histology, anatomy, pathology, physiology, immunology (got my graduate degree). I took 3 weeks for the preparation, didn't feel much pressure on studying. I think it's because I put so much efforts in pathology and physiology during my 2nd yr course work.. I did BRS path, Webpath images+Q, Robin's review Q, pretest pathology/pathophysiology and BRS physiology/pretest physiology for my course work rather than memorizing all the details from the course syllabus.. Later half of second yr, I also went through Kaplan Q along along with course work. I may have spent more time than other students for studying not much relevant information for the numerous finals during 1 & 2nd yrs but it definitely helped me at the end.. For 3 wks' prep, I only went through BRS path/Phy once or twice, and spent most of time integrating information from FA and kaplan, USMLErx.


SeventhSon said:
hey man, im in the same boat as you and I thikn the best thing to do is just read this forum sporatically (although now most people are done with boards, so you will have to read old posts). But just gradually read the advice threads over some time and I think you start to pick up different strategies people have and start to see which ones might work best for your learning style.

I think overall there is no way to know anything for sure until the windmill that is MS-2 hits us.
Click to expand...
 
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A sage older student told me just to study really hard for my second year classes and try to understand the material. I think that is generally good advice. However, I also think you should buy First Aid. Replace the errata on each page. And then annotate it with interesting/important stuff from your classes. You will have a great study guide. I also recommend listening to Goljan throughout the year. Just being familiar with your study materials will help you a lot.
 
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I'd say, do BRS path and maybe even review BRS physiology while going through second year. If you're really ambitious, I would try to go through like a paragraph of First Aid a day - would take like 15 minutes.

A lot of people would say don't bother studying too early, you'll forget stuff anyway... I sort of agree, but some part of me also disagrees... Depending on how good your school curriculum is (ours was very much NOT boards-oriented), you may find that upwards of 50% of the material is brand new, especially the non-path stuff (pharm, micro)... So it might help to expose yourself to that material for the first time earlier in the year, so you don't feel like you're learning ALL this new stuff in the course of a few weeks. Just speaking as someone who's currently cramming.
 
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neoncandle said:
I also think you should buy First Aid. Replace the errata on each page. And then annotate it with interesting/important stuff from your classes.
Click to expand...

My advice is similar:
1. Buy FA. Read it during the relevant courses. Don't annotate it (you don't want to crowd a very high-yield source!)
2. Buy Goljan RR Path. Read it during the relevant courses. Don't annotate it, same reason as above.
3. Read Robbins (if you're a Robbins type of person) to flesh out the Goljan stuff.

But don't ruin your high-yield board studying materials with your LOW-yield course studywork!
 
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I just took the exam recently, and I agree with much of the advice above. First, remember that there is no substitute for studying hard during 1st and particularly 2nd year. If you work diligently during this time, boards studying is nothing more than a concise review of material you are already highly familiar with. Don't neglect your coursework completely, but I do endorse tailoring your studying toward whats in the board review books, because some schools probably do not cover everything that is boards-relevant (as was the case for me).

In the fall, I would purchase First Aid and BRS path and use these throughout the year with your course syllabi. Also, I highly recommend the Robbins text. I know this is a massive book, but it is really outstanding. If for no other reason, buy it for the images and schematics, which are excellent. That being said, you should make a serious attempt to get through this book if you find you like (or at least don't mind) reading it (I made it through about 75%, wish I had gotten through all of it, but it definitely helped come board studying time when I could go back and review some of the stuff I highlighted). If you hate it, don't force yourself to read it, but do look at the pictures. There's a great 'Infectious Diseases' section that will complement and integrate pathology into your microbiology course (integrations are important for the boards). I did not discover Goljan audio until my boards studying, but had I known about it earlier, I would have used that with coursework as well if I had time. For the spring, pick up BRS physiology and start reviewing that with coursework, especially if you are on a systems based curriculum.

The other key is to practice board QUESTIONS. Aim to complete 10,000 over the course of 2nd year. I got through probably close to 7000-8000, and by the time I got to the exam I felt as prepared as I could have been (although I will not get my score back for a few weeks, so I guess take that statement lightly). For 1st semester, get 'Robbins Review of Pathology' question book and do these during your pathology and pathophysiology courses. These questions are definitely similar in style, format, and difficulty (and sometimes even more difficult) to the real Step 1 exam. Next, do the questions from WebPath (http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/webpath.html). These are free and are an excellent review. 3rd, do the questions in BRS pathology. These would be among the easier questions you'd see on the real exam, but will help you get used to doing questions and may help break up the monotony of reading. Why am I focusing so much on path questions? It's the most important subject on the test, and being strong in this area during the year will help you when you start your hardcore boards studying in the spring.

Later in the year, other question sources for me were First Aid Q&A, Elsevier online Qbank, and USMLE World. Don't purchase the online question banks until the spring (they are expensive, so it makes sense to utilize the cheaper question sources first). Complete one online question bank with coursework a few months prior to your hardcore boards studying. Then complete the other online question bank during your boards studying. This approach is hard work, but I believe it will prepare you sufficiently.

So to review:

2nd year books: Robbins textbook, BRS path and BRS phys, First Aid. I didn't use Goljan Rapid Review, but check that out as well, as many others have highly recommended it. Also, add Goljan audio if you feel you have enough free time.

2nd year question sources: Web Path, Robbins Review of Pathology, First Aid Q&A, Elsevier Qbank (Kaplan Qbank may be fine, I did not use it though so can't endorse it, also Kaplan is more expensive), USMLE World

I"m sure there are many other sources, this is just what I used and found to be sufficient

One last thing - take these recommendations lightly and know your personality. I am an average student but pretty motivated to learn and do well on the boards, so this was a good plan for me. Set goals for yourself and adapt these recommendations (and all the others on StudentDoctor) to your own personality and level of motivation. If I were smarter, I probably would not have done so much and spent more time partying during 2nd year!

Good luck with your studying, and remember to have some fun during 2nd year. It is a tough year if you're an average student who wants to do well (like me), but if you know when you're burning out and when you need to take a break you'll do fine.
 
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i second the funk.

and, seventhson has a wise approach. i'm taking this exam in 6 weeks, and for the last year and a half i've read and read on here and other sources of advice in order to tailor a study strategy that is both right for me personally and in line with popular approaches (that yield success of course). don't listen to one authority (unless you mean goljan), compile notes from past test takers and familiarize yourself with study resources that are recommended and that you feel you can use for the next year. i.e. use something you prefer if that preference is strong. for instance, micro made ridiculously simple is consistently highly recommended. but, personally, i hate that damn book so i use something else.

anyway, good luck.
 
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One thing i realized last year is that.....i really enjoy studying and learning (esp physiology).

So i am actually excited about Path and getting ready for Step1. I know memorizing stuff a year in advance is not gonna help much but if I can actually learn the concepts I think it would be fun.
 
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Blanket said:
One thing i realized last year is that.....i really enjoy studying and learning (esp physiology).

So i am actually excited about Path and getting ready for Step1. I know memorizing stuff a year in advance is not gonna help much but if I can actually learn the concepts I think it would be fun.
Click to expand...

Honestly, the best thing you can do right now, is to take it easy. But when MS2 starts, learn your subjects well as you can as you go through them. It's much easier to prepare for boards if you have a solid base and have fewer holes to recover.

Enjoy your summer 😀
 
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if I could have repeated my 2nd year over again, I would:

1) Save money and get USMLE World instead of KAPLAN QBANK (USMLE World copied the read Exam FRED interface to the exact tiny details) Wasted $400 for the year long QBank, I switched later to UW, better and cheaper! www.usmleworld.com

2) Do USMLE World Questions subject based right after each exam block

3) Go over First Aid 1-2 times prior to the hardcore boards studying period

4) LEARN THE 2nd YEAR MATERIALS REALLY WELL the first time around.

👍
 
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JayneCobb said:
Honestly, the best thing you can do right now, is to take it easy. But when MS2 starts, learn your subjects well as you can as you go through them. It's much easier to prepare for boards if you have a solid base and have fewer holes to recover.

Enjoy your summer 😀
Click to expand...

I am actually having a GREAT summer. Just got back from a cruise and not packing already for a backpacking trip to South America.

I just need to start thinking about this beast...while i am still excited about it. (I know once the fall starts, i am not gonna have time to sit back and plan).
 
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just ace your coursework. FA/usmleworld/kaplan/goljan can get you a 240, but recalling those stupid low yield facts from class gets you a 260+.
 
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blz said:
just ace your coursework. FA/usmleworld/kaplan/goljan can get you a 240, but recalling those stupid low yield facts from class gets you a 260+.
Click to expand...
I second that. Also watch the videos on my thread because they are full of good information. JK!
 
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First thing you can do is do well on all your M2 classes, especially if your school has retakes over the summer where a retake is given only in summer, during prime studying time. And as others have said, some of the low yield facts that you might see on Step 1 are not going to be ever seen again in your step one studying. So if you get asked some really low yield fact about some rare lymphoma, if you killed your Hematology/Oncology organ segment test you are more likely to remember it.

However, you're also going to learn some things that are absolutely completely essential to understanding. Basically, if it's in First Aid, learn it until it's second nature. i can by no means give you a complete list, but it's going to be pretty obvious. Stuff like heart murmurs, pulmonary function tests and different types of diseases, cerebral vasculature and what different parts of the brain do, vitamin deficiency syndromes, etc you just KNOW you're going to be asked again and if you learn it well the first time it makes you feel better when you study again. Don't listen blindly to what a professor says is "high yield" or "shows up on board exams all the time" as some say some really lame, obscure facts.
 
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Heyy... I also just took the test, almost 3 weeks ago now... but it feels like its been ages...

There's a thread on here where we posted our Step 1 experiences. I suggest you check it out, you could get alot from it. Good luck!
 
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As a spin off --- anyone care to talk about the relative
diffculty level between M1 and M2? Some of our
upperclassmen are saying the (IMHO) overdramatic -
If you're not studying 48 hours a DAY you'll fail 2nd
year gloriously aflame while others are talking about
having free time on the weekends....

We're a systems based D.O. program....anyone?
 
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It depends on how quickly you retain information and how hard your courses are at your school in terms of second year. Anatomy was the most annoying course in my opinion, trying to dissect dried up bodies along fascia planes without ripping out a nerve.... Most people I think have some free time, make sure the time you use is actually effective...If you show up to class, then pay attention, don't just be there and asleep. Don't just read through a textbook, stop at the end of the paragraph and try to go over what you just read in your mind so that you can retain it. At my school you could get by with just reading lectures notes for the most part and not even cracking open a text. But I'd suggest reading Robbins or Rubin or whatever for path.

Unless your school only gives you a couple of weeks to prepare for step 1 or something, I wouldn't worry much at all about step 1 during your 2nd year courses. Try to learn what you can for long term memory...you don't want to have relearn everything every year you're practicing medicine from rotations to residency and onward. Try to really learn and make sense of things instead of focusing everything on one test...You'll have weeks at the end to focus everything on that one exam, and that should be enough time.
 
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lfesiam said:
if I could have repeated my 2nd year over again, I would:

1) Save money and get USMLE World instead of KAPLAN QBANK (USMLE World copied the read Exam FRED interface to the exact tiny details) Wasted $400 for the year long QBank, I switched later to UW, better and cheaper! www.usmleworld.com

4) LEARN THE 2nd YEAR MATERIALS REALLY WELL the first time around.

👍
Click to expand...

This whole post was money, but especially the two I highlighted!!!
 
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Use books like First Aid and Goljan Path to learn the board relevant material. Fill in with additional info from coursework you need to do well on tests. Stuff that you are uncertain about turn to in-depth sources like Robbins, or a review article, or what have you.
 
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neoncandle said:
A sage older student told me just to study really hard for my second year classes and try to understand the material.
Click to expand...

I agree with this. There is nothing higher yield than second year. Know your coursework well and you will be halfway home. It certainly doesn't hurt to glance over first year physio and anatomy when covering organ systems in pathophys (eg in FA or prior year resources), but there is time enough for that later if you want to spend the time hammering home the second year info.
 
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doctorp82 said:
Use books like First Aid and Goljan Path to learn the board relevant material. Fill in with additional info from coursework you need to do well on tests. Stuff that you are uncertain about turn to in-depth sources like Robbins, or a review article, or what have you.
Click to expand...

I disagree with this. I don't think that FA or RR should be used as primary sources for "learning." Your foundation during pathology is Robbins (or your course syllabus, depending on the school). It's fine to consult review materials to clear up what you don't understand or don't remember from Robbins but those materials are not intended as primary sources - especially First Aid since it really does nothing to integrate the knowledge provided into the "big picture."
 
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I agree with anyone who said to really understand the 2nd year material well. This doesn't mean, "Make sure you do well in 2nd year courses," because understanding and doing well can be completely different things depending on how you approach the material.

My biggest advice would be UNDERSTAND THE PATHOPHYSIOLOGY OF ALL THE DISEASES.

And when I say understand, I REALLY mean UNDERSTAND. If you're reading about some disease and your notes mention some physical/pathological/lab/etc finding, make sure you understand what causes that to show up. Make sure you understand what each treatment is targeting, because that will reinforce the pathophysiology of the disease. Understanding the stuff makes memorizing it SO much easier when the time comes for that. It's not "what" that matters, it's "why" and "how". Knowing "why" and "how" can even make a lot of the memorization totally unnecessary - you just learn the prototypical process and you can figure out the details of related diseases based on your knowledge of the prototype - understanding diseases will help you recognize similar patterns and you can use underlying themes to answer questions about diseases you've never heard of.

A great way to test whether you know it or not (and to consolidate it in your own mind) is to explain it all to friends/classmates. If you have a study buddy, take turns explaining physiology and pathophys to each other.

As far as resources go, I recommend whatever books will help you actually undestand disease processes as opposed to just memorizing key facts. So I agree with people who say Robbins, or Lilly for cardio, etc. I bought Harrison's and actually used it a lot last year; I think most people would call me crazy for doing it but I used it for cases and to help me understand diseases. And a lot of the stuff that I heavily read about (ie, read it in Robbins and Harrison's and UpToDate) I still remember even now, because I really focused on trying to understand what was going on. I don't recommend that for everyone but if you can do it I think you'll be glad you did later on. For a couple exams last year I didn't even study the lecture notes. If you really learn the material it doesn't matter where you learn it from - you'll be able to answer questions about it.

So bottom line, go for understanding during 2nd year.

Edit: Wanted to echo what someone said about going back and forth between material. Nothing in medicine is isolated, it all relates to other stuff somehow. When you re-encounter diseases that affect multiple organ systems, go back to those other organ systems (or go back to the anatomy & physiology if your school is subject-based) and make sure you remember (AND UNDERSTAND) what's going on in those organ systems.

Edit 2: Main difference for me between 1st and 2nd year: I didn't know what the heck I was doing 1st year, or what I was supposed to be learning, so I mainly just learned whatever the professors put in their notes. In 2nd year, I had a better idea about what I should be learning, and learned mostly from select books that I liked. I also spent a lot more time trying to integrate the material and looking out for how all the different material related to each other. So I guess another way of saying it was that I took a much more active approach to learning during 2nd year.
 
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I disagree with everyone who says read Robbins. Baby Robbins is plenty.

If you are psycho big book type of person (which I'm not) I think it would be better to read Cecils Essentials of Medicine because it would address pathophysiology and treatment and give you a better understanding. Very few doctors go on to be pathologists, and I think that is represented on Step 1.

My test had very few pics that were recognition, and nothing you won't get from your path class + goljan. To learn the pics I used Robbin's "Atlas of Pathology" which is basically all the pics from Robbin's + a few others in one book and USMLEWorld.

I'll know my step score tomorrow so we will see how my strategy worked out.
 
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viostorm said:
My test had very few pics that were recognition, and nothing you won't get from your path class + goljan. To learn the pics I used Robbin's "Atlas of Pathology" which is basically all the pics from Robbin's + a few others in one book and USMLEWorld.
Click to expand...

I do agree with this part - pictures aren't very important. Any pictures you'll get will be pretty easy ones.

And yes, I did become a psycho big book person last year. Hah.
 
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If shooting for a 230:

Learn everything really well. Use Robbins Review of Pathology with your class, and probably Rapid Review Pathology. Look up 1st year topics in review books as related things come up in your 2nd year classes.

During your review period, use USMLEWorld for questions.

If shooting for a 250:

The above, plus schedule 5-10 hours weekly from around January-February for dedicated Step I review. Even if you won't retain that for 6 months it will make your rereview in the Spring more efficient. Make flash cards of every drug in First Aid. Make sure you understand difficult physiology concepts before you hit your hardcore study time so you don't have to waste time then figuring it out. In addition to USMLEWorld and Robbins Review, do WebPath questions.

If shooting for 270 (also requires a very strong first year base):

The above, plus buy Supermemo, put everything worth knowing in it gradually, and do the flash cards every day. Buy QBank and QBook excessively early, and finish it by the end of your 2nd year courses when you will start UW. There are two parts to most questions: recognizing what disease is present and answering a question about that disease, and your goal at this level is to be 100% at the first part.

If shooting for 290:

Reading Big Robbins is still not going to be helpful. (I did it and loved it, but I don't see how it translates into better scores.)
 
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Wanted to clarify two things.

Reading through books (Robbins, Harrisons) for the sake of reading through them won't magically make you understand things. If reading books works for you, the read books. If doing questions works for you, do questions. Whatever you do, aim for understanding the material, not just knowing what you have to know for exams.

The other thing is, don't even think about trying to read Robbins or anything like that when you're studying for Step 1. You won't get through it all and even if you did, you wouldn't remember it. Goljan is what you use for Step 1 review.
 
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Pathophys is huge. The key to retaining information is truly understanding it, not just mindless regurgitation. Goljan is good for this, and integrating across different subjects (like embryology, biochem, phys, even gross anatomy) is key. Working hard for your clinical medicine course will also be helpful. Don't use Cecil's for your actual Step 1 prep, but if your curriculum requires you to read it, read it. You will definitely find a bunch of knee-jerk path questions on the Step, but I was surprised at how much my clinical medicine course helped me.
 
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Get a life folks!

You guys are big nerds if you are thinking step 1 in beginning of year 2.

Learn the material for learning medicine, not to pass a test !
 
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NK1656 said:
Get a life folks!

You guys are big nerds if you are thinking step 1 in beginning of year 2.

Learn the material for learning medicine, not to pass a test !
Click to expand...

Why would you make a post like this as your very first message?
 
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NK1656 said:
Get a life folks!

You guys are big nerds if you are thinking step 1 in beginning of year 2.

Learn the material for learning medicine, not to pass a test !
Click to expand...

Welcome to SDN 😴 You´re not gonna make many friends with that attitude 😛

I am personally a bit ´freaked out´about the beast, so it doesn´t hurt to get an idea of what resources to get, or what strategies to use to learn the material, or whatever early on. Best wishes.
 
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NK1656 said:
Get a life folks!

You guys are big nerds if you are thinking step 1 in beginning of year 2.

Learn the material for learning medicine, not to pass a test !
Click to expand...

no matter how well you know the material, you need to pass the test to practice medicine.

edit: oh, he's already gone and banned himself. :laugh:
 
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Get all honors.

Hard to be in bad shape for Step 1 if you have all honors in Year 2
 
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fakin' the funk said:
My advice is similar:
1. Buy FA. Read it during the relevant courses. Don't annotate it (you don't want to crowd a very high-yield source!)
2. Buy Goljan RR Path. Read it during the relevant courses. Don't annotate it, same reason as above.
3. Read Robbins (if you're a Robbins type of person) to flesh out the Goljan stuff.

But don't ruin your high-yield board studying materials with your LOW-yield course studywork!
Click to expand...

I am second year too and pretty nervouse about preparing. Let me ask you first does Goljan has a cd or book,, which is better?? I like BRS pathology, but is Goljan better?????

As for Robbins are u talking about the actual book wich is like 100000 pages or u are talking about the small review book with the question???
 
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Yeah, I'm starting to pick my books and sources for STEP 1 now, while upperclassmen are selling them for dirt cheap. I think I may start studying too. As for Goljan, he has a book Rapid review path, (and probably a book for each subject) and he has a CD of his famous lectures.
 
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I think the best way to get a good grasp on disease processes is to understand the pathology behind it (as well as knowing normal). That said, I would recommend buying the full size Robbins, and the accompanying atlas and qbook. And read it to understand it, not to just plow through meaningless descriptions, and it will give you a headache in the beginning. If you stick with it and perhaps make notes in BRS path book, you will be set for pathology and can just review BRS and your notes when it is boards time. And you'll also be able to understand the path reports you may get on future patients, except for pysch, they don't usually biopsy....
 
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lord_jeebus said:
schedule 5-10 hours weekly from around January-February for dedicated Step I review. Even if you won't retain that for 6 months it will make your rereview in the Spring more efficient. Make sure you understand difficult physiology concepts before you hit your hardcore study time so you don't have to waste time then figuring it out.
Click to expand...


On a more serious note, this is REALLY sound advice. I'm one week out from taking the beast and I really wish I would've done this. I'm not shooting for a super-high score, but phys was very poorly taught at our school and I didn't make the best effort to learn it well on my own when I was in the class. The integration b/t path and phys is supposedly huge on boards, and it makes learning some aspects of path and most aspects of pharm difficult if you don't learn phys well. If you feel weak in phys, I'd recommend picking up Costanzo's physiology textbook (not the BRS).
 
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exuse me, are u telling me all those people are listening to Goljan illegaly no place to buy the lectures officially.
 
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What is a really good Q-book for USMILE questions during the M-2 year.
It is too earlly in the year for me to prescirbe to Kaplan since i am not taking the exam till June. I want to train my brain to USMILE questions.
 
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I hated kaplan questions and was so sorry I bought them. They were fine for the 2nd year material but way too hard for the first year stuff. 2wks b/4 the exam I stopped doing kaplan and bougt USMLE World. Their questions were harder than the actual test but not as hard as kaplan. Their explainations were much better than Kaplan's.I learned more that 2wks about key concepts in phys,anatomy, micro and pharm than I did over the 6mo doing the kaplan questions. As far as books go for Q, I used USMLE Step 1 secrets. I didn't discover it until finals but liked it alot and wished I had used it through out the 2nd year. I also like the Deja Review series for each of the classes. Pharm and micro were especially helpful the last few days b/4 Step 1.

I used both BRS path and Rapid Review Goljan. I studied the hell out of Goljan with my course work and used BRS path the night b/4 for a quick read.
 
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p.s. I contacted Dr. Goljan and he did say that he does not sell his lectures 🙁
 
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Frogmed said:
I hated kaplan questions and was so sorry I bought them. They were fine for the 2nd year material but way too hard for the first year stuff. 2wks b/4 the exam I stopped doing kaplan and bougt USMLE World. Their questions were harder than the actual test but not as hard as kaplan. Their explainations were much better than Kaplan's.I learned more that 2wks about key concepts in phys,anatomy, micro and pharm than I did over the 6mo doing the kaplan questions. As far as books go for Q, I used USMLE Step 1 secrets. I didn't discover it until finals but liked it alot and wished I had used it through out the 2nd year. I also like the Deja Review series for each of the classes. Pharm and micro were especially helpful the last few days b/4 Step 1.

I used both BRS path and Rapid Review Goljan. I studied the hell out of Goljan with my course work and used BRS path the night b/4 for a quick read. I do like Goljan audio alot. I listenedto the lectures that corelated with my class schedule. I always listen to them on the way to my test and probably gained 3 or 4 extra points that way. I also really liked the pass program. I'm not sure if you've heard of it. It is by a guy in Chicago. He kind of goes on and on but it is great for complicated physiology like the lung (which haunted me since first year) and heart. :luck:
Click to expand...



To be honest with you I hate Kaplan too. For the MCAT I spent too much money and time and guess what?? my score did not even increase one point. It was a total disaster. But what can I do now, they seem to be the only thing avaible beside USMILE world and everyone use them, we dont have tooo many options.
You said there is a book called USMILE secrets, is it basically just questions ?? I want something that has all the courses for first and second year.
 
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Salma123 said:
You said there is a book called USMILE secrets, is it basically just questions ?? I want something that has all the courses for first and second year.
Click to expand...
USMLE secrets is more like cases. They give ou certain situations and then explainations. I liked it b/c it correlated all of the classes together. There may be a questions about diabetes but it is also asking about the path, micro and pharm at the same time. Kind of hard to explain w/o giving you a specific line from the book. I've already been nicely warned not to do that again 😳
 
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chauhanjugalkishor
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