Originally wrote a reply a Neuronix calling me out up there, but decided to scrap it, don't really want to get into this again, do we Neuronix? 🙂
Sure we do
😀 I greatly respect those who disagree with me, so there's no hard feelings. I only point you out cause you're one of my favorite posters and I hope you won't take it personally.
Just so people don't get the wrong impression, though, our time to graduation tracked upward from 7.2 to 7.7 in the past five years, which may be real or it may be a blip, we don't know
This is a national trend, and if you get the data for the 20 years preceding nationally you will see it has been consistantly tracking upwards. My guess is that it's the same for Hopkins as well. Will it fall like the Dow? I doubt it, unless major changes are made, and this was the point of one of my blog entries.
and anyway the main point I was arguing was that you can complete a solid MD-PhD in 7 years, which Neuronix said was impossible
I don't recall saying that? I am on track to complete my MD/PhD in 7 years, and have written many posts and a blog entry about how you might graduate in 7 years yourself. I constantly try to advise young students about how to get out quickly. My argument is that the average is closer to 8 years than 7 (or over that) at every program of which I'm aware and as a result you should think of a MD/PhD program as being a 8 year +/- 1 year program currently. My worry is that since it has tracked up so much in the past 5 years, applicants may now be walking into a 8.5 year +/- 1 year program. If I didn't make that clear in the past I apologize and I will edit such posts.
but is true at many schools (please follow the link he provided if you're interested). On the whole, I guess my point is that MD-PhDs can be quite fun despite a few people not being happy with their situation, not everyone is quite as cynical as Neuronix
To be frank, I am the least cynical MD/PhD I personally know who is at my level or higher. If you get to 6th year and still think MD/PhD programs are fun and most students are happy, more power to you. I don't know anyone at this stage who hasn't been seriously depressed at least once and maybe constantly. At a class party this sentiment was well shared among my classmates and I came out seeming the least pessimistic about MD/PhD, science, etc... This is of course not including the several people that have dropped the program altogether.
The difference is that I am always open and honest about what I think and most people won't say negative things. How many senior MD/PhD students do you see posting on this forum? I can think of a few. Sluox. Brunette1981. gstrub. gbwillner. My apologies for anyone I've forgotten on that list. But the point is, if you look at what I have to say versus what they have to say we tend to disagree little and on points unrelated to the current discussion. When you then look at other people I talk to about SDN, they have nothing to say. Why? They are unhappy, but they view their problems as personal problems. It's a sign of weakness to sound unhappy or to point out such issues. Why should anyone care about their problems anyway? Why would they expose these opinions to a board of pre-meds? Who has the time for such things? Pre-meds are so bubble-headed and optimistic they won't listen anyways, they have to figure these things out for themselves, I'm typically told. It's no different when it comes time to interview. You only meet first (mostly first) and second years at programs for a reason. There's typically a token senior student who is the one person who is bubbly out of a lot of students. Who would say negative things about their own program? It looks bad on the person and everyone is quietly afraid of getting in a lot of trouble for being "honest", so the vast majority of students hide from applicants and this forum. In my opinion if MD/PhDs spoke up with their voices about these problems, things might get changed. It's the same way I think if Americans spoke up about their problems, our government would change. But there's a culture of "I can't make a difference" and "If you don't have something positive to say, don't say anything" that pervades all of America and is especially common in science and medicine. I wish I could change it. This is why I view myself as an optimist. You must recognize these things that are bad first, in order to change them.
One thing that keeps me going is that my honest and unbiased advice is appreciated by many. I've been called cynical and written off as such (i.e. Neuronix is bitter, ignore what he says), but I feel vindicated by the fact that many who have written me off have become far more bitter than myself. I was dumped by a starting med student once for being "too bitter" and she ended up hating medical school. Am I bitter and negative? That's a subjective thing. If you want to see me as that, that's fine, but I don't see myself as such. To be perfectly honest, I am happier now than I have been since I started my MD/PhD program, but that's not going to change what I have to say about MD/PhD programs, which I try to make as objective and unbiased as I feel I can be. Keep in mind that on the order of only 30% of MD/PhDs grow up to live the "dream" of mostly basic science research. People are falling off the MD/PhD kool-aid track for a reason, and burying our collective heads in the sand about it doesn't do anything to help our plight. I believe that close to 100% of those people who start programs believe in science at least 50% of the time. There's issues that lead them not to become scientists. How about we talk about them? Or is it negative to point out bad things?
Anyways, I'm on such a wild tangent here and I'm sort of tooting my own horn a bit. I try to retain my humility in a world where everyone is fluffing themselves and/or their programs. I only want to say that if you want to question my data or assumptions, that's fine. I wish we could get rid of the personal judgements of my character. I think they're typically wrong, that what is said on an Internet forum is not a true judge of a person, and that we should stick as much as possible to anecdotes, data (preferably), and issues.
and people do complete MD-PhDs in a decent amount of time, with few problems, and are quite happy about it. You give a lot of good advice, Neuro, i just thought you'd lay off the cynicism after you graduated.
I don't think I'm cynical. I'm just trying to be honest. MD/PhD graduation times are averaging 8 years at programs I'm aware of and tracking upwards. NIH grant funding is going down. On the order of 15% of MD/PhD students drop their PhDs and many many more are unhappy with their graduate school training. What I have to say is not going to change based on my mood because at least in my mind, I think it is rooted in reality. If some people want to bury their heads in the sand and ignore reality or parts of reality, that's their choice. If my reality is wrong, please point that out. But don't tell me senior graduate students aren't bitter. Don't tell me that I haven't watched several classes of students go from RAH RAH RESEARCH to blah... I just wanna be a clinician. I saw it every day. If you look at my old posts, I was the overly optimistic first year arguing with the senior PhD students who have since long left SDN. As I look at their posts now I realize they were right, had a lot of great information, and I wanted to believe so much in what I was doing that it was easy to ignore gloom and doom. This is cognitive dissonance at its finest. You step into a long and hard program and you want to believe what you're doing is worthwhile. This is one reason I think I fluster first years and applicants, and of course the other reason is that things haven't really started to get hard for you yet. First years often think gross anatomy is the end of the world, but in reality life only gets worse--much worse. Enjoy first year because it's relatively a good time. Second year too for that matter. When I started my PhD I annoyed the hell out of the MD/PhDs who were residents or finishing their PhDs with my optimism and questions. Every single one was heading towards the clinical-only world and most have. I'm not saying MD/PhD is not worthwhile, but certainly not everyone does, and their reasons for thinking it's not are as valid as mine thinking that MD/PhD is worthwhile.
Please come back in 5 years and tell me how you view the MD/PhD training pathway again. Then in another 5. I hope you stick around to tell us these things. I will say it again for myself. I do think MD/PhD is worthwhile for the right people. I do think my program is a great program. Are there issues? Of course. I try to talk about the good and bad, but since everyone only wants to talk about the good it's easy to single me out for bringing up the bad.
... **** WITH ME AND I WILL EAT YOUR FACE!!!
) wins. I have to warn, hope is "in" right now. Yes we can (graduate happily within eight years)!
