What are your most recent feeling towards the debate about Affirmative Action?come in

I feel that AA is outdated. I may be overly optimistic, but I don't feel that admissions board members are so ignorant as to descriminate by race. Not to mention the legal and PR troubles that would arise if a school was caught descriminating against applicants. I feel that it just gives non-URMs (like myself) something to complain about when they have a hard time getting accepted. It is difficult to maintain a true sense of equality when policies like AA are in place. It makes non-URMs feel that applicants less qualified than themselves are being accepted purely on race.

There's a place for affirmative action, but I think that it should be implemented well before college and med school, perhaps at the grade school or high school level. By the time you get to college and medical school, it's really too late. To me, it seems that placing a person in a competive academic environment after they've spent their formative years in intellectual paucity helps neither the minority student nor the college/med school.

That said, I think that med schools should try to recruit minorities, because in theory, they're more likely to go back into medically underserved areas or rural regions and practice. The demographics of an entering medical school class should probably reflect the demographics of the American patient population. Now, whether or not they actually do is another matter alltogether. That said, I'd also like to see AA based more on economics, rather than race.

I always felt strongly they should have no place on applications for any professional school for a sex, race, or picture. It should be purely your academic record, experiences, essays, and from that pick the best candidate.. black, asian or white.. male or female.. lets fill the classes with the top candidates IMO

Originally posted by Ramoray
I always felt strongly they should have no place on applications for any professional school for a sex, race, or picture. It should be purely your academic record, experiences, essays, and from that pick the best candidate.. black, asian or white.. male or female.. lets fill the classes with the top candidates IMO

Click to expand...

If I may write this without causing a serious disturbance on the SDN, I agree with Ramoray. I think that admission to any professional school should be based simply on academic factors. That being said, I think that URMs, like the general population, should be encouraged to develop their abilities early in school so that in later years (higher education) they do not have to take advantage of such unfair opportunities as affirmative action IMO.

Thank you.

After hearing both sides of the debate for years, I am convinced that the problem of racial disparity will never be solved and slavery/pre-1960's racism was the source of this entire conflict. America is inherently racially tense.

I feel the only solution (which would never happen) is reparations to poor, predominantly African American communities in the form of huge education and health grants and major funding to improve the standard of living in these areas and provide for opportunity and hope.

I'm a non-URM for the record. Please don't flame, please don't hate.

I posted this in another threat, but it's still relavent:

I see the point that those saying "socioeconomic" status should be the basis and not so-called "race." However, the *PURPOSE* of affirmative action is *NOT* go get poor kids a chance to become doctors/lawyers. Rather, the PURPOSE is to get people with black skin into those positions, because, unfortunately, in today's world... the color of your skin still means a lot culturally.

Based on that note, society *NEEDS* more *BLACK* doctors/lawyers - period.

Leon - white male

I'd like to see AA based on economic status. White people can grow up in "the hood" too. I also remember my high school class(in corona, ca...suburbia...where it seems like everyone drives an SUV) which had a significant number of black people in it. The majority of the black people in my class even lived in south corona(the richer part of town). They had the same opportunity to take honors and AP classes and become involved in academic clubs, etc. The majority didn't and most didn't go to UC's. Don't tell me that these black kids didn't get into a UC because they didn't have the same opportunities as me. Simply put...they didn't work as hard academically than me.

Samahang Pilipino at UCLA recruited me very year to join in whatever AA rally they were having that year. I always declined. Being Pilpino and looking around at all of my cousins, at the Pilipino's at my high school, etc. What reason do they have for not making it to a UC? Didn't have the academic work ethic and therefore didn't have the grades. Some live in Chino Hills, the nice parts of West Covina, etc. Don't tell me that the reason was because they grew up in a substandard academic environment. Thats bull.

Anyhow...got a little side tracked I guess...the point is that race doesn't automatically imply that someone has substandard academic opportunities than others. I'm not arguing that everyone has the same opportunity or that the majority of those in underprivileged parts of the nation aren't minorities. However, to use race as a factor in deciding who was underprivileged or not is ludicrous. If I put a bunch of guys wearing jeans and a wife beater, each being from a different race. Can you point out who is poor based on their skin color? Like someone said earlier....wouldn't economic status/demographics(ie someone living in south central compared to someone from Corona) be a better indicator of who is underprivileged?

I think if we want more cultural diversity then it starts younger. Jr. High, etc. Perhaps if we started recruiting minorities earlier, then maybe the black kids who went to my jr high and ultimately graduated with me would have worked harder and gotten into UC's.

UCLAMAN: I agree with you that "race doesn't automatically imply that someone has substandard academic opportunities than others."

However, in general, it does. remember, we are talking about "socioeconomics" and the "socio" part has a to do with their place in society based on so-called concepts of race and skin color. White men are still, unfortunately, at the top, and black women are at the bottom. And that's not right, and not best for society.

But, even if it didn't...that's not my point. I'm saying that the PURPOSE of AA is not to get people that are necessarily in economically disadvantaged status into better positions; rather, it is to get minorities (based on skin color) into better positions.

We don't have enough black doctors, lawyers, professions in general for the society with which we live.

The way I see it, AA is in place to offset the serious problem of STRUCTURAL racism in this country. Racism is a lot more than just individual people being bigoted. In a book I read recently, racism was defined as "a system of advantage based on race." It affects people on so many levels- from school, to buying a house or a car, to getting a job... White privelege is so deeply imbedded in U.S. culture that we (white people) don't even notice it, and even if we don't do or say anything actively racist, the problem still remains. The problem IS the status quo, and that's why I see AA as still being necessary today.

I've recommended this book before: Beverly Tatum's "Why are all the Black kids sitting together in the cafeteria?" It has a great chapter discussing AA.

I agree with Homuffin. I am URM and this is the first time I have seen AA discussed in a civilized manner on SDN. Thanks to everyone for expressing their points of view in a sensitive way. Remember that this is not just trivia, but these are actual people's lives that you are discussing. I recommend Race Matters by Cornell West.

Please God reccommend anything BUT Cornell West. He's a fascist, and a rather poor rapper at that! If you're looking for something good, try the late John Rawls instead.

Originally posted by kreno
UCLAMAN: I agree with you that "race doesn't automatically imply that someone has substandard academic opportunities than others."

However, in general, it does. remember, we are talking about "socioeconomics" and the "socio" part has a to do with their place in society based on so-called concepts of race and skin color. White men are still, unfortunately, at the top, and black women are at the bottom. And that's not right, and not best for society.

But, even if it didn't...that's not my point. I'm saying that the PURPOSE of AA is not to get people that are necessarily in economically disadvantaged status into better positions; rather, it is to get minorities (based on skin color) into better positions.

We don't have enough black doctors, lawyers, professions in general for the society with which we live.

Click to expand...

I see your point. Makes sense. But I think the problem is that in an effort to do so, less qualified candidates are taken(ex. lower gpa/mcat). I think if we want more black doctors/lawyers we need to start at a younger age. Get more of those minorities(for example at my high school) to work harder and strive to get into higher education. Get them to change their goals at a younger age. I don't think AA based on race gets more minorities to apply. I think that someone posted on another thread that URm's get into medical school at a higher percentage than other applicants but that the reason there aren't so many was because not enough apply. I think thats the problem that has to be attacked. We need to create programs that encourage more minorities to apply. Like I said earlier, those black kids from my high school for whatever reason did not see the importance of taking honors/AP classes. They are just as intelligent as me. Perhaps getting programs in place that encourage them to take such classes rather than letting someone into an institution with lower numbers because we need brown colored skin in the class, etc.

it'll be very interesting to see if the white house will actually take a stand/side on this issue with all the socio-political implications involved with the decision. they usually do with such landmark cases.

Originally posted by UCLAMAN
But I think the problem is that in an effort to do so, less qualified candidates are taken(ex. lower gpa/mcat).

Click to expand...

I'm just curious- do you have any statistics or reports to back up this statement? From my understanding, that is a common AA myth.

Originally posted by HoMuffin
I'm just curious- do you have any statistics or reports to back up this statement? From my understanding, that is a common AA myth.

Click to expand...

I don't actually. If it is a myth, then I am sorry for perpetuating it. But why is it that someone with a low gpa/mcat has a chance if they are URM while someone who isn't URM doesn't have as great a chance at acceptance into medical school?

I apologize for making that statement if I am wrong.

However, I still stand by the idea that if we want more URM doctors/lawyers/in higher education then we need to start at an earlier age and get more of them to reach for higher goals. I don't think AA gets more URM applicants to apply, does it?

Originally posted by HoMuffin
I'm just curious- do you have any statistics or reports to back up this statement? From my understanding, that is a common AA myth.

Click to expand...

a myth?? i don't think so. there are statistics all over the place. i don't know where they are offhand, but i've read them.

i'm not going to start posting my feelings on aa b/c i really don't know how i feel about it other than that i feel it should be done only with respect to looking at the individual. i do feel it is important to have doctors of all races and from all walks of life. however, i don't believe it is right to pick someone considerably less qualified based on race alone. aa sends out the message that it is ok to work not as hard if you are a urm.

I think by keeping AA in medical school or any other professional admission process, it will perpetuate the prejudice that a person of color only got in b/c of race. The premeds will think so, and even fellow medical students and physicians will think so too. and please don't tell me, even if you are as "un-racist" as you can be, that thought never crossed your mind: how much did race play in that person's application?
but with that said...we do need active recruitment for black physicians. for one, patients do tend to respond better to doctors that they can relate to, culturally or otherwise.
second, some racial groups are not in th environment which promotes overachievers. when you are in high schol or in college, how many of your friends are of different race than you? people do tend to hang out in same-race groups, which keeps them in a certain mindset. there needs to be active policies to break those cliques, and give whoever has the talents a chance.

Originally posted by Iffy premed
I think by keeping AA in medical school or any other professional admission process, it will perpetuate the prejudice that a person of color only got in b/c of race. The premeds will think so, and even fellow medical students and physicians will think so too. and please don't tell me, even if you are as "un-racist" as you can be, that thought never crossed your mind: how much did race play in that person's application?
but with that said...we do need active recruitment for black physicians. for one, patients do tend to respond better to doctors that they can relate to, culturally or otherwise.
second, some racial groups are not in th environment which promotes overachievers. when you are in high schol or in college, how many of your friends are of different race than you? people do tend to hang out in same-race groups, which keeps them in a certain mindset. there needs to be active policies to break those cliques, and give whoever has the talents a chance.

Click to expand...

I agree that some racial groups do not seem to promote overachiever and that people tend to hang out in the same-race groups promoting a certain mindset. AA is not a solution to that problem.

Originally posted by UCLAMAN
I agree that some racial groups do not seem to promote overachiever and that people tend to hang out in the same-race groups promoting a certain mindset. AA is not a solution to that problem. We need to find other ways to deal with that(Not sure how...but i don't think AA is the way.).

Click to expand...

While the geniuses of the world work on a solution, we have no choice but AA to guarantee at least SOME URM representation in professional schools. As soon as you eliminate AA, you will have schools loaded with caucasians and asians, and zero african american representation UNLESS you have alternate mechansims in place to compensate.

Well ya, maybe, maybe not....thats why we need programs to start actively recruiting URMs at an earlier age right now.

At the same time, we shouldn't be using AA based on race. I'd prefer socioeconomic status. Someone stated earlier that those with lower socioeconomic stauses are generally URM's....well then AA based on socioeconomic status is a good thing isn't it?

I guess I should make my posts clearer...when I say I don't agree with AA and its not the way, I'm referring to AA based upon race.

I'll edit my last post as I guess I do have some sort of idea for a solution.

Originally posted by Mike59
While the geniuses of the world work on a solution, we have no choice but AA to guarantee at least SOME URM representation in professional schools. As soon as you eliminate AA, you will have schools loaded with caucasians and asians, and zero african american representation UNLESS you have alternate mechansims in place to compensate.

Click to expand...

I have to disagree. You are basically saying that ll African-American students are in medical school only b/c AA allowed them the chance. I have to disagree. I have met too many qualified African-American students to know that they would still remain in medical school regardless of whether AA existed or not. AA doesn't only consider black Americans, but also Native Americans, mainland Puerto Ricans, Mexican-Americans, etc. I know that the majority of my URM classmates are incredibly intelligent people with amazing personal histories that will greatly contribute to the medical field. They didn't get in just b/c of an implented policy. They got in b/c they are amazing applicants. Many premeds think that numbers is what it is all about, but if you talk to most of the physcians and members of adcoms they'll tell you that numbers are not all that you need.

If you read your comment closely, you basically have no faith in African Americans to succeed solely on their own. So far, I have met many African-American students at my school (MS1,2,3,4) and they are very much qualified. The fourth years that I've talked to have done very well in medical school and are applying to some pretty impressive residencies. There is so much more to medical school than what a lot of premedical applicants think it is all about. Maybe schools differ depending on the region and philosophy, but out here we are very much aware of the importance of all aspects of a person's life and we try not to be incredibly hyper-reductionistic and break a person down into numbers. Yes, they are important..but they don't correlate with how empathetic, sharp, and effective a medical student will become.

I think it is very important that medical admissions committees continue to take into consideration important components of a person's application that are not soley based on numbers, i.e. the personal statement, personal struggles, interviews, etc. I think that these factors alone will be enough to create a racially and ethnically diverse class.

I agree Souljah.

I was also referring to one of your posts on antoher thread when I posted earlier that someone posted that there needs to be more URM's applying.

Thats why I think we should be spending time recruiting more URM applicants and trying to do so at a younger age even.

Originally posted by souljah1
I have to disagree. You are basically saying that ll African-American students are in medical school only b/c AA allowed them the chance. I have to disagree. I have met too many qualified African-American students to know that they would still remain in medical school regardless of whether AA existed or not.

Click to expand...

You aren't understanding where I am coming from.

My comments are not based on the inability of African Americans themeselves to succeed, it is based on the structure of our current society that is clearly biased to favor caucasians in all lines of work. It is prejudice holding them back. And AA is a necessary mechanism (at least at the present time) to ensure representation in spite of the bias.

Originally posted by kreno
We don't have enough black doctors, lawyers, professions in general for the society with which we live.

Click to expand...

So what's enough then?

Originally posted by HoMuffin
I'm just curious- do you have any statistics or reports to back up this statement? From my understanding, that is a common AA myth.

Click to expand...

It is not a common myth. In fact, it is one of the most basic reasons why AA is used in admissions.

University of Michigan used to explicitly add 20 points on a 150 point scale for being a URM, equivalent to a full letter grade higher for one's GPA.

What's interesting about the whole AA system is how it is shifting/shifted from quotas to "race plus" to so-called "race neutral" policies, all with the same goal and result of getting in more URM's.

For instance, UM probably had quotas before their outlaw. Then, they used their "20 point bonus" system, which in essence can be tweaked to precisely match the quota system. The number 20 is certainly not arbitrary; it results in URM numbers that more or less equal the previous quotas. Now, they probably have a "life struggles" category that, again, takes on a proportional weight that admits the desired # of URM's.

I'm relatively confident that the Supreme Court will reform AA in admissions. My greatest fear is that schools will use this sort pseudo-race-neutral gimmickry to get around the Court's will.

Originally posted by HoMuffin
Racism is a lot more than just individual people being bigoted. In a book I read recently, racism was defined as "a system of advantage based on race." It affects people on so many levels- from school, to buying a house or a car, to getting a job... White privelege is so deeply imbedded in U.S. culture that we (white people) don't even notice it, and even if we don't do or say anything actively racist, the problem still remains.

Click to expand...

WHOA! WAIT A MINUTE! I AM A WHITE GUY....WHERE DO I SIGN UP FOR THESE "WHITE PRIVELEGES" YOU SPEAK OF?

I couldn't afford college after H.S., and since they're aren't a heck of a lot of scholarships out there for white guys, I joined the Marines, filled sandbags and hauled around a 40lb machine gun in the mud for 6 years and got my G.I. Bill.

Unfortunately, my G.I. Bill alone wasn't enough to support me and pay for school, so I worked full time all through my 4 years of undergrad. Now I'm in my 2nd year of med school reading this forum and am wondering "WHERE WERE MY WHITE PRIVELEGES?!"

Did I forget to sign up for them? Is it too late to sign up now? My life would have been a heck of a lot easier of I would have known about these 'white priveleges' earlier.

I feel that affirmative action is a big reflection on how far race relations in America need to go. First, I think that people tend to make a huge deal out of it- as if all the minorities in med school got in because of it. Many minorities are in schools that are predominantly black etc. like Howard, Meharry Morehouse etc. Most other med schools do not have enough minorities to make the whole, "many qualified applicants were shafted because of AA" argument. Also, I would like to add that there isn't such a stigma attached to people who get in because grandfather donated a new building blah blah. If I remember correctly, Michigan's point system also assigned 20 points to people who had connections. I rarely see people on this board complaining about that the way they complain about AA. About the whole AA makes it harder for qualified minorities because they have an automatic stigma attached to them- well that is basically bullcrap. If you are ignorant enough to think that- well that is basically something you need to deal with.
Sorry if this is incoherent- I have finals am tired as hell.

Originally posted by Teufelhunden
WHOA! WAIT A MINUTE! I AM A WHITE GUY....WHERE DO I SIGN UP FOR THESE "WHITE PRIVELEGES" YOU SPEAK OF?

I couldn't afford college after H.S., and since they're aren't a heck of a lot of scholarships out there for white guys, I joined the Marines, filled sandbags and hauled around a 40lbs machine gun in the mud for 6 years and got my G.I. Bill.

Unfortunately, my G.I. Bill alone wasn't enough to support me and pay for school, so I worked full time all through my 4 years of undergrad. Now I'm in my 2nd year of med school reading this forum and am wondering "WHERE WERE MY WHITE PRIVELEGES?!"

Did I forget to sign up for them? Where do you sign up? My life would have been a heck of a lot easier of I would have known about these 'white priveleges' earlier.

Click to expand...

First, joining the military was your choice, so don't complain to us about sandbags.

Second, your priviliges were "by default". May I ask where you grew up (the type of community)? Did you have both parents, etc?Did a majority of your community neighbors graduate?

If you tell me a bit more about your background, I will pinpoint your "privileges" one by one.

Originally posted by elin
I feel that affirmative action is a big reflection on how far race relations in America need to go. First, I think that people tend to make a huge deal out of it- as if all the minorities in med school got in because of it. Many minorities are in schools that are predominantly black etc. like Howard, Meharry Morehouse etc. Most other med schools do not have enough minorities to make the whole, "many qualified applicants were shafted because of AA" argument. Also, I would like to add that there isn't such a stigma attached to people who get in because grandfather donated a new building blah blah. If I remember correctly, Michigan's point system also assigned 20 points to people who had connections. I rarely see people on this board complaining about that the way they complain about AA. About the whole AA makes it harder for qualified minorities because they have an automatic stigma attached to them- well that is basically bullcrap. If you are ignorant enough to think that- well that is basically something you need to deal with.
Sorry if this is incoherent- I have finals am tired as hell.

Click to expand...

I agree with you except on the point about many minorities going to predominantly black schools (or HBCUs)....only 16% of black students attend such institutions according to America in Black and White....so that's a myth.

And props to whomever brought up the late great John Rawls... and to everyone for a good discussion about AA.

Originally posted by SistaKaren

And props to whomever brought up the late great John Rawls... and to everyone for a good discussion about AA.

Click to expand...

i agree... i'm so surprised this didn't get out of control

Thanks for the shout.

A lot of this discussion makes me realize how very similar poor blacks and whites are (and other minorities as well). In my mind, it's a shame that AA in its current form deals solely with race. It think it would benefit a greater number of minorities (and poor crackers) if it were restructured to address economic need. Sadly, none of the kids I grew up with have benefitted from AA, and they're the ones it was designed to help! But then again, none of them had a chance to go to college, because the high school and grade schools they went to were so destitute.

Originally posted by SistaKaren
I agree with you except on the point about many minorities going to predominantly black schools (or HBCUs)....only 16% of black students attend such institutions according to America in Black and White....so that's a myth.

And props to whomever brought up the late great John Rawls... and to everyone for a good discussion about AA.

Click to expand...

16% may represent students at universities in general but for medicine in particular Howard and Meharry combine to produce something like 60% or more of black physicians.

i think med schools do take into account "disadvantaged status", right? i know the uc's do anyway. this gives non-urm economically disadvantaged applicants a chance to explain their circumstances, and i would assume they get preferential treatment in admissions, or at least do when they have similar stats/ec's to someone who is not disadvantaged.

Originally posted by Mike59
First, joining the military was your choice, so don't complain to us about sandbags.

Second, your priviliges were "by default". May I ask where you grew up (the type of community)? Did you have both parents, etc?Did a majority of your community neighbors graduate?

If you tell me a bit more about your background, I will pinpoint your "privileges" one by one.

Click to expand...

I joined the military so that I could pay for college. There is virtually NO financial aid out there for white guys...I didn't have much of a choice.

Both of my parents were working class. I was the first in my family to earn a college degree.

So let me guess? The fact that my parents weren't divorced is a "white privelege." Let me guess, racism somehow discourages black couples from marrying or forces them to divorce?

BTW, I have earned the right to complain about filling sandbags....if you'd had served yourself you'd know that 'bitching' is a sign of good troop morale, which I still have.

Okay...I'd chat more...but I have too many white priveleges awaiting me

Originally posted by medicine2006
16% may represent students at universities in general but for medicine in particular Howard and Meharry combine to produce something like 60% or more of black physicians.

Click to expand...

Ah...I thought we were talking ugrads going to med school...not people in med school. Yeah, I was aware of that statistic. That makes that post make more sense to me..hahaha

Originally posted by Teufelhunden
WHOA! WAIT A MINUTE! I AM A WHITE GUY....WHERE DO I SIGN UP FOR THESE "WHITE PRIVELEGES" YOU SPEAK OF?

Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure you're just egging me on, but here are a couple of links anyway to explain what I mean by white privilege:

http://www.learntoquestion.com/vclass/currlesson/text/2000/september/white_privilege.html

http://www.cew.wisc.edu/equity/White privilege.htm

SistaKaren-
Are you saying that 16% of black students go to HBCU's or 16% of black med students? Also on the argument that AA should be done by SES- many school districts in the country are still segregated by race. Just because you are poor and white does not necessarily mean you go to a substandard school, and while that is also true for the poor and the black, it is more likely that poor black kids go to substandard schools just because of the way schools are zoned and funded.

I'm saying that out of all the black students currently enrolled in a U.S. degree granting University or College, only 16% of them attend one that is considered historically black. That's what I was saying. But I think I was confused, because now I can see that you were talking about medical schools and not undergraduate institutions...my mistake!

I'm not a URM. I see points on both sides, but it's awful easy to get sick of the rhetoric on both sides (see Jessie Jackson or Pat Robertson). I think the government should offer reparations to those minorities who think they truly deserve them. 1.) I believe less people would take them than most might think due to the problem of attributional ambiguity. 2.) It would be interesting to see if certain minority communities would really "turn things around" after recieving their reparations. For instance...would affirmative action be unneeded or less needed. I have a hunch...

Just some thoughts.

I gotta add something because I'm watching the O'Reilly Factor on Fox News. He just said that inner city public schools recieve more money per child than most private schools in the area and still can't do nearly as well. He cited Washington DC and Chicago. His basic point was, "Throwing $ at the urban schools doesn't solve the problems." Mr. O'Reilly isn't liked by everyone, but when he gives stats, you know they're accurate.

I only mention this because lots have earlier posts have suggested otherwise in terms of funding. Very Interesting. I wasn't aware of this before now.

Originally posted by rbassdo
I gotta add something because I'm watching the O'Reilly Factor on Fox News. He just said that inner city public schools recieve more money per child than most private schools in the area and still can't do nearly as well. He cited Washington DC and Chicago. His basic point was, "Throwing $ at the urban schools doesn't solve the problems." Mr. O'Reilly isn't liked by everyone, but when he gives stats, you know they're accurate.

Click to expand...

Throwing money at urban schools will solve problems provided dollars are also thrown into programs that stop rampant drug use in those communities, prostitution, single motherhood, and the myriad of other problems that plague these neighbohoods. Unless the policy works in tandem to improve the overall life of children, an infinite amount of $$ will not solve our inequality issue.

Single motherhood is one of the biggest problems that lead to our need for AA. Yes, whites and latinos can also be products of low income single mothers, BUT a vast majority of African American children are born to single mothers, a problem induced by a racist American society that sapped hope from the black community for decades. Unless the community as a whole is rescued from the endless cycle of poverty and teen pregnancy, AA will continue as a necessary mechanism.

Originally posted by Mike59
Throwing money at urban schools will solve problems provided dollars are also thrown into programs that stop rampant drug use in those communities, prostitution, single motherhood, and the myriad of other problems that plague these neighbohoods. Unless the policy works in tandem to improve the overall life of children, an infinite amount of $$ will not solve our inequality issue.

Single motherhood is one of the biggest problems that lead to our need for AA. Yes, whites and latinos can also be products of low income single mothers, BUT a vast majority of African American children are born to single mothers, a problem induced by a racist American society that sapped hope from the black community for decades. Unless the community as a whole is rescued from the endless cycle of poverty and teen pregnancy, AA will continue as a necessary mechanism.

Click to expand...

I might be wrong, but I think the social issues/preferences raised are attitude/moral choices more than financial. There are lots of poor, marginalized people who don't abuse drugs, have loose sex, etc. because it's simply not the wise thing to do. There are tons of mostly white rural communities that have bigger drug problems (per capita) than the inner cities...not to mention excessive sex. Behavioral change is going to take place only after there is a shift in values (for most people). That part about a racist American society sapping hope from the black community was intriguing. If I'm not mistaken...single motherhood exists primarily for two reasons - excessive sexual activity followed by accessive criminal and/or irresponsible actions. Don't pin that on me.

i disagree that single motherhood occurs because of "excessive sex." I believe its because of lack of education about contraception and more importantly a lack of self-esteem and a general feeling of hopelessness about one's future so they dont take precautions to worry about their future. They live only for today because thats all they know about. newsflash, all teens have sex but not all segments of the population have a high teen pregnancy rate.

I'm going to agree with scootad on this one-- it has a lot more to do with a lack of hope for a future than with bad values or "excessive sex." I read a very interesting book (for a sociology class) called "Don't Call Us Out of Name" about women and poverty in the US that said this.

American and maybe South African Society are unique in the sense that both harbor a certain degree of institutionalized racism. That is, race has and still does play a great role in the oppurtunities and expectancies of minorities. AA is in place today as an emergency program meant to infuse individuals into sectors of society that they wouldn't be in otherwise. In a way it is a form of reparations for hundreds of years of insidious racism that have effectively degraded the social and moral fabric of an entire population, leaving the majority disadvantaged to say the least. The fault is distributed evenly througout society. Government, through the enactment of blatantly discriminatory housing policies througout the last century such as redlining , is a tremendous cause for the current economic gap in wealth. THis is true as one's home and estate are a primary means of increasing wealth, different from income. DOmino effect ensues as blacks are pushed forcefully into areas with fewer job oppurtunities to make room for whites(insert privelege). Housing values drop exponentially, communities stagnate, ghettoes form. Simple. Governmentally sponsored policies are easily followed by the masses and few have the power to recalibrate housing policies----most communities still reflect this reality and probably will until inborn notions of race are defeated. Racism may no longer be as obvious as it was in 1960's dixieland, yet its covert form is just as threatening or moreso as it may not be as easily identified and remedied. so, I do believe that AA serves a purpose, yet it is a completely inadequate solution, and a somewhat shaky start down the road of equality as shown in this thread when black students are placed in 'special status' in college and further. It only seems creates further angst and separation on campuses and discussion boards.

Where does the solution lie? right here, in discussions like this where we process the opinions of both sides and come to realize that racism exists and must be confronted rather than conveniently denied by the priveleged majority...