From one Professional School student: warning to all

Started by aequitasveritas
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aequitasveritas

aequitasveritas

PhD
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Hi all,

I wanted to vent/give all of you prospective grad students a glimpse of some of the agitation that can and will arise from the clinical degree offered at professional schools.

You've gotta really pay great attention to what the financial strain will be like in your life from living on loans and owing more money than your degree is worth. I simply cannot state that enough.

Case in point:

Keep in mind this happens REGULARLY at my school. A friend of mine is in her last yr here of a PhD in Clinical Psych. The school overawarded her financial aid from last semester, she returned the funds from this semesters' aid money, but subsequently signed up for another class, which they then deducted from her existing moneys instead of requesting more from the govnt loan. End result, she will live on less than 1,000 a month and will have no funds to live on during the rest of her training over the summer months (internships extend into the summer).

This is but a glimpse of what commonly occurs when you enter into a professional school. You are indenturing yourself into 5 yrs of anxiety ridden poverty where a financial aid officer will determine your living expenses based on how many credits you take...because there is some sort of ratio of living expense money to academic credits that dictates how much you get to live on.

Now, if you don't have to do this and you could go to a funded program where they give a stipend and you accrue no debt...good for you.

If you are headed into a professional school of psychology you better be independently wealthy or have a really really good financial investment on the other end of the 5 yr stint.

Average debt coming out of my school.....over $200,000.

Hope you don't plan on qualifying for a mortgage...
 
aequitasveritas said:
Hi all,

I wanted to vent/give all of you prospective grad students a glimpse of some of the agitation that can and will arise from the clinical degree offered at professional schools.

You've gotta really pay great attention to what the financial strain will be like in your life from living on loans and owing more money than your degree is worth. I simply cannot state that enough.

Case in point:

Keep in mind this happens REGULARLY at my school. A friend of mine is in her last yr here of a PhD in Clinical Psych. The school overawarded her financial aid from last semester, she returned the funds from this semesters' aid money, but subsequently signed up for another class, which they then deducted from her existing moneys instead of requesting more from the govnt loan. End result, she will live on less than 1,000 a month and will have no funds to live on during the rest of her training over the summer months (internships extend into the summer).

This is but a glimpse of what commonly occurs when you enter into a professional school. You are indenturing yourself into 5 yrs of anxiety ridden poverty where a financial aid officer will determine your living expenses based on how many credits you take...because there is some sort of ratio of living expense money to academic credits that dictates how much you get to live on.

Now, if you don't have to do this and you could go to a funded program where they give a stipend and you accrue no debt...good for you.

If you are headed into a professional school of psychology you better be independently wealthy or have a really really good financial investment on the other end of the 5 yr stint.

Average debt coming out of my school.....over $200,000.

Hope you don't plan on qualifying for a mortgage...
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And those are probably private loans, too 🙁
 
$200K?! That is a new high among the avg. PsyD debts I have heard of. The whole operation of charging astronomical tuition and fees (comparable to Ivy League Universities) while providing none of the perks like:

  • funded research experiences
  • internal practicum sites
  • available courses in relevant fields like neuroscience, biostatistics, or public health
  • prestige/well-respected name on your diploma
  • solid outcome statistics (?)
is sickening. 😡

Thank you for being brave enough to share this warning with others.
 
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KayJay85 said:
$200K?! That is a new high among the avg. PsyD debts I have heard of. The whole operation of charging astronomical tuition and fees (comparable to Ivy League Universities) while providing none of the perks like:

  • funded research experiences
  • internal practicum sites
  • available courses in relevant fields like neuroscience, biostatistics, or public health
  • prestige/well-respected name on your diploma
  • solid outcome statistics (?)
is sickening. 😡

Thank you for being brave enough to share this warning with others.
Click to expand...

My bravery cost me a quarter mill in tuition and fees! It was once just stupidity:laugh:
 
What is the tuition difference between a freestanding professional school and a school like University of Denver (Psy.D.)? I believe that University of Denver has a tuition that is approximately $950 per credit hour, or around $35k/year.

Personally, I only take tuition differences into account. Cost of living is something I'm going to have whether a go to a funded school (not taking stipends into account for TA/RA positions), a public university, a private university, or a freestanding school.

Granted, stipends to help financially, but come at a cost of loss of time as you generally have to work for that money.
 
psychphd4me said:
What is the tuition difference between a freestanding professional school and a school like University of Denver (Psy.D.)? I believe that University of Denver has a tuition that is approximately $950 per credit hour, or around $35k/year.

Personally, I only take tuition differences into account. Cost of living is something I'm going to have whether a go to a funded school (not taking stipends into account for TA/RA positions), a public university, a private university, or a freestanding school.

Granted, stipends to help financially, but come at a cost of loss of time as you generally have to work for that money.
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$35k is a LOT of money to spend on tuition. I'd imagine it's likely in the average range in terms of unfunded programs, but keep in mind that with most funded programs, you receive a tuition remission (i.e., all you pay is student fees). Freestanding professional schools as a whole may charge slightly higher tuitions, but that's a complete guess on my part.

As for stipends requiring time--true, but the work is necessarily related in some way to your professional development, even if it's something as seemingly-mundane as a TA-ship. I'd much rather spend my time working on something related to psychology, if even remotely, than having to find part- or full-time employment outside of the department, or having to rely entirely on staggering amounts of loans for financial support.
 
Yeah...I'm not entirely certain I could even really distinguish my "paid placements" I do to get my stipend from things I would be doing anyways to help build my CV and be a contributing member of the department/lab. Perhaps I might spend a bit more time working from home, but I'm not sure it would change the total amount of work I do.
 
I'm one of the few in a PhD program that got no funding- so I have amassed $70,000 so far, in my 4th yr. Granted I was never a TA or RA, those were not mandatory things at my school, and TAs only get a stipend, not tuition costs covered. I have had the worst experience of any grad student, but I guess it's all my fault not taking advantage of opportunities etc etc.
 
While it is certainly true that many graduates from professional schools leave with 175-200k of debt, there are many exceptions (that don't include being independently wealthy).

For instance, I have seen many professional students living way beyond their means. This means [mis]using their loan money to live in trendy neighborhoods, purchasing expensive phones and other "toys", wearing the latest fashions, etc.

It is possible to go to a professional school and make it out the other end without accruing an overwhelming amount of debt. It just takes hard work, self-control and basic financial management skills.

(n=1): I went to a free-standing professional school in a major metropolitan city and worked my ass off as a part-time case manager for the first 2 years of grad. school and a paid research assistant at a local university for the last 2 years. Both jobs were flexible enough to schedule classes around. I also spent alot of time researching external scholarship opportunities and typically got 7-9k/year that way.

After graduating I had about 60k in academic loans at about 2.7% - very manageable. I am also optimistic that this will be paid-off relatively quickly once I get licensed and qualify for the NHSC loan repayment program (my primary employer is already a pre-qualified site).

I write this not to boast, but to provide encouragement to anyone who may be despairing.
 
psytudent said:
While it is certainly true that many graduates from professional schools leave with 175-200k of debt, there are many exceptions (that don't include being independently wealthy).

For instance, I have seen many professional students living way beyond their means. This means [mis]using their loan money to live in trendy neighborhoods, purchasing expensive phones and other "toys", wearing the latest fashions, etc.

It is possible to go to a professional school and make it out the other end without accruing an overwhelming amount of debt. It just takes hard work, self-control and basic financial management skills.

(n=1): I went to a free-standing professional school in a major metropolitan city and worked my ass off as a part-time case manager for the first 2 years of grad. school and a paid research assistant at a local university for the last 2 years. Both jobs were flexible enough to schedule classes around. I also spent alot of time researching external scholarship opportunities and typically got 7-9k/year that way.

After graduating I had about 60k in academic loans at about 2.7% - very manageable. I am also optimistic that this will be paid-off relatively quickly once I get licensed and qualify for the NHSC loan repayment program (my primary employer is already a pre-qualified site).

I write this not to boast, but to provide encouragement to anyone who may be despairing.
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Kudos to you...I mean that. However, in my experience when a student is spread so thin as you seem to have been, and I certainly am, it is difficult to really absorb the material and to develop as a clinician as fully as you should.

I've been in private practice for 2 yrs as a psych assistant and have worked additional jobs to make things financially kosher. I would love to have been at a funded program where I could live cheaply...but without the financial boondoggle.

It's hard to fly when you're weighted down.
 
psychphd4me said:
What is the tuition difference between a freestanding professional school and a school like University of Denver (Psy.D.)? I believe that University of Denver has a tuition that is approximately $950 per credit hour, or around $35k/year.

Personally, I only take tuition differences into account. Cost of living is something I'm going to have whether a go to a funded school (not taking stipends into account for TA/RA positions), a public university, a private university, or a freestanding school.

Granted, stipends to help financially, but come at a cost of loss of time as you generally have to work for that money.
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950 x 149 credits (what my program is for PhD)= 141,550...for tuition only.

Then estimate 25,000 a year for living expenses as what you'll need for 4-5 yrs of program.

The sum ain't pretty
 
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So my question is this...how do people view students who take on an enormous amount of debt as part of a University Psy.D. program (not a free standing prof school)? For example, Widener's PsyD program is extremely expensive; aprox $28,000/year for all five years with absolutely no opportunity for assistantships/stipends. So do the math...tuition on top of loans for cost of living, and we are talking over $200,000 of debt.

As far as I have heard, Widener is well respected among PsyD programs. They are the oldest PsyD program in the country, and have captive internship placements as part of the program. This would alleviate some of the match day stress. They seem to have a variety of clinical opportunities, and students involved in research. I do not believe that Widener can be compared to the typical "professional schools," such as Argosy.

But...the cost is about the same. What do people make of this?

My goal is a funded program, or partially funded balanced program. However, I need to see where the chips fall and then make an informed decision...
 
Student4Life0 said:
So my question is this...how do people view students who take on an enormous amount of debt as part of a University Psy.D. program (not a free standing prof school)? For example, Widener's PsyD program is extremely expensive; aprox $28,000/year for all five years with absolutely no opportunity for assistantships/stipends. So do the math...tuition on top of loans for cost of living, and we are talking over $200,000 of debt.

As far as I have heard, Widener is well respected among PsyD programs. They are the oldest PsyD program in the country, and have captive internship placements as part of the program. This would alleviate some of the match day stress. They seem to have a variety of clinical opportunities, and students involved in research. I do not believe that Widener can be compared to the typical "professional schools," such as Argosy.

But...the cost is about the same. What do people make of this?

My goal is a funded program, or partially funded balanced program. However, I need to see where the chips fall and then make an informed decision...
Click to expand...

good questions.

yet Argosy is a for profit and is not a typical pro school. it is one of the worst. I dont go there by the way...just saying
 
aequitasveritas said:
good questions.

yet Argosy is a for profit and is not a typical pro school. it is one of the worst. I dont go there by the way...just saying
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Well, let's say another one of the other pro schools, perhaps not as deplorable as Argosy :laugh:

I did not apply to any professional free standing schools, but did apply to a few university based PsyD programs. They all seem to have decent reputations, but this does not outweigh their high price tags. If these are my only options in April, I am not sure what to do.
 
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Student4Life0 said:
Oh, and did I mention that I already have close to $60,000 in student debt? So...yeah.... 🙁
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I have a friend that has $60k in debt from a masters in education.

Her starting pay with the school district was just over $40k.

A bit lower of a debt to income ratio, but in the long run, it comes down to doing what love. She loves teaching, I do not. We both will have our debt paid off eventually, and both will be making money at a job that we are passionate about.

Yes, I would love a funded program. But at this point, it is not my decision to make, and given the competitive nature of the Ph.D. funded programs where I am limited to applying, a Psy.D. very well might be the best decision for me.

The advice to watch the debt for a non-funded program is well heeded, but so is the advice that it can be a manageable debt, given the right foresight and restraint.

That said...I'm off to buy a bag of rice and beans after a visit to the thrift store for a new suit.
 
psychphd4me said:
I have a friend that has $60k in debt from a masters in education.

Her starting pay with the school district was just over $40k.

A bit lower of a debt to income ratio, but in the long run, it comes down to doing what love. She loves teaching, I do not. We both will have our debt paid off eventually, and both will be making money at a job that we are passionate about.

Yes, I would love a funded program. But at this point, it is not my decision to make, and given the competitive nature of the Ph.D. funded programs where I am limited to applying, a Psy.D. very well might be the best decision for me.

The advice to watch the debt for a non-funded program is well heeded, but so is the advice that it can be a manageable debt, given the right foresight and restraint.

That said...I'm off to buy a bag of rice and beans after a visit to the thrift store for a new suit.
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Well I imagine that I may have $200,000 in debt by the time I am done (if not more) and starting at perhaps...$60,000? I don't know how that adds up. Well, I am still waiting to hear from a few schools so perhaps I shouldn't throw in the towel yet...
 
There are some very difficult decisions ahead of some of you.

I am not interested in telling you to decide one way or the other, but I do hope you are fully conscious of each and every conscious and unconscious motivation to enter the field.

One must have very, very profound motivations (again, unconscious or conscious) to enter into a field where the earning potential does not even mildly approximate the delayed professional development or debt ratio it take to accrue the degree.

lemme put it to you this way...if someone said "jump across this 13 foot ravine and there's some candy on the other side. it would be logical to assume that you must really freakin want whatever that candy is, right?
I'm saying, truly figure out why you want that candy so much.

So heed well
 
I plan to look into federal repayment programs after I graduate. I am also going to continue to keep out hope for a funded program (it's not over until April!), and do as much as I can to make money while I am in school. Since I will have my masters, I am hoping to teach part time or do some fee for service counseling.
 
Student4Life0 said:
So my question is this...how do people view students who take on an enormous amount of debt as part of a University Psy.D. program (not a free standing prof school)? For example, Widener's PsyD program is extremely expensive; aprox $28,000/year for all five years with absolutely no opportunity for assistantships/stipends. So do the math...tuition on top of loans for cost of living, and we are talking over $200,000 of debt.

As far as I have heard, Widener is well respected among PsyD programs. They are the oldest PsyD program in the country, and have captive internship placements as part of the program. This would alleviate some of the match day stress. They seem to have a variety of clinical opportunities, and students involved in research. I do not believe that Widener can be compared to the typical "professional schools," such as Argosy.

But...the cost is about the same. What do people make of this?

My goal is a funded program, or partially funded balanced program. However, I need to see where the chips fall and then make an informed decision...
Click to expand...

I would say 99.99%, i.e. 9,999 in 10,000, of the people out there don't care what school you went to, what degree you hold (PsyD, PhD, MA, MHC, etc.), or what you paid for it. That other .01%, i.e. 1 in 10,000, well... No comment. 😛

Basically, I think even those numbers are high, as I don't think that even 1 out of every 6 licensed psychologists is concerned about those issues (1 out of 6 would be what that .01% represented in MA in 2000).
 
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Jegg said:
I would say 99.9% (likely even 99.99%, i.e. 9,999 in 10,000) of the people out there don't care what school you went to, what degree you hold (PsyD, PhD, MA, MHC, etc.), or what you paid for it. That other .1% (likely .01%, i.e. 1 in 10,000)... No comment. 😛
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Well what's your definition of people? :laugh:. Ill tell your right now if "people" included internship training directors, post-doc recruiters, and potential employers, then yes, it matters. And, Im sure any reasonable person would agree that they have every right to consider (and indeed should) this variable during a competive selction process.
 
Jegg said:
I would say 99.99%, i.e. 9,999 in 10,000, of the people out there don't care what school you went to, what degree you hold (PsyD, PhD, MA, MHC, etc.), or what you paid for it. That other .01%, i.e. 1 in 10,000, well... No comment. 😛

Basically, I think even those numbers are high, as I don't think that even 1 out of every 6 licensed psychologists is concerned about those issues (1 out of 6 would be what that .01% represented in MA in 2000).
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How is that relevant to the current thread? People may not care, but your bank account, mortgage, family plans, social life, and professional and personal development will care. The difference between $200,000 in debt and 0 debt upon graduation is staggering.

Paying that much for a psych degree is ridiculous, and bordering on frank insanity (without a plan such as military service). Especially when clear alternative (no debt, paid to go there) exist.
 
erg923 said:
Well what's your definition of people? :laugh:. Ill tell your right now if "people" included internship training directors, post-doc recruiters, and potential employers, then yes, it matters. And, Im sure any reasonable person would agree that they have every right to consider (and indeed should) this variable during a competive selction process.
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Using MA as an example, .096% of the population were licensed psychologists and psychiatrists combined in 2000 (public and private practice, etc.). Only a small number of those people would likely care. As mentioned, I would wager .01%. My guess is that that number is still high.

The people you are referring to, in the settings you mentioned, are likely a very small fraction of that .096% in the entire MA population. My guess is .01% or less...

Of course, I'm extrapolating from MA to the entire country, so there is a degree of uncertainty, but I bet if you extrapolate to the entire world that .01% shrinks to an extremely abysmal number. 😉
 
Fuzzy math.....

I don't care if the guy who washes windows downtown opines, but I do care about the opinion of someone who is in charge of hiring me. Many people can skirt by this issue by opening up their own private practice, but many clinicians want to have all of their options open, so the opinions of other professionals matter.
 
Jegg said:
Using MA as an example, .096% of the population were licensed psychologists and psychiatrists combined in 2000 (public and private practice, etc.). Only a small number of those people would likely care. As mentioned, I would wager .01%. My guess is that that number is still high.

The people you are referring to, in the settings you mentioned, are likely a very small fraction of that .096% in the entire MA population. My guess is .01% or less...

Of course, I'm extrapolating from MA to the entire country, so there is a degree of uncertainty, but I bet if you extrapolate to the entire world that .01% shrinks to an extremely abysmal number. 😉
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Wait, are you really arguing that because there are so many people in the world that means a lot of them will be ignorant to your degree and indifferent to where you went for school? China has a billion people but none of those people care I paid 250k for a professional psych phd; therefore it doesn't matter if I wasted my money/time.
 
JockNerd said:
How is that relevant to the current thread?
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He asked "how do people view students who take on an enormous amount of debt as part of a University Psy.D. program (not a free standing prof school)?" I'm pointing out that if he isn't dealing with that small .01% or less of people out there, they aren't going to care either way. They won't even care if he has an LSW instead of a PsyD. He has to figure out if spending all that money is worth it based on that .01% (or less), worth it because he has his own reasons for pursuing it, or whether it is simply unjustifiable.

I agree with you about taking on that kind of debt. Especially since a great number of people don't care what degree you have. It would be wise to have excellent reasons for pursuing the degree if one is taking out loans, or to be able to afford it without loans. There are simply too few spots out there to tell everyone to pursue a funded program; it is the most competitive doctoral degree in the US (IIRC). Not everyone has a funded program as an option when pursuing a doctoral degree in clinical psychology. If more than a very small portion of people cared about this issue, including the applicants themselves, then there wouldn't be so many students in this situation after graduating...
 
Therapist4Chnge said:
Fuzzy math.....

I don't care if the guy who washes windows downtown opines, but I do care about the opinion of someone who is in charge of hiring me. Many people can skirt by this issue by opening up their own private practice, but many clinicians want to have all of their options open, so the opinions of other professionals matter.
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The statistics are from National Center for Health Workforce Analysis. It is an analysis of the Massachusetts Health Workforce from 2000.

Do you think it is unrealistic to assume that only a small portion of clinical psychologists contemplate these issues outside of academia and intensely competitive Internship sites (and other related sites with high competition)?
 
somedude14 said:
Wait, are you really arguing that because there are so many people in the world that means a lot of them will be ignorant to your degree and indifferent to where you went for school? China has a billion people but none of those people care I paid 250k for a professional psych phd; therefore it doesn't matter if I wasted my money/time.
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No. I'm saying that those loans aren't worth it unless you are dealing with that .01%, and even then that .01% probably won't consider you "worthy," unless you went to a small handful of those unfunded schools. The other 99.99%, in so many words, couldn't care less.
 
Jegg said:
The statistics are from National Center for Health Workforce Analysis. It is an analysis of the Massachusetts Health Workforce from 2000.

Do you think it is unrealistic to assume that only a small portion of clinical psychologists contemplate these issues outside of academia and intensely competitive Internship sites (and other related sites with high competition)?
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Not this argument again....much like APA-acred issues, some people try and put APA-acred up on this pedestal as THE IDEAL, when in fact it is the MINIMUM level of standards adopted by the field. Trying to say that unless you want to be in academia or competitive for a top internship site, any program would suffice is a weak argument. Stop trying to pick on the extremes within the field. People will still do what they want, but it is disingenuous to twist unrelated data to try and support your view.
 
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Jon Snow said:
Wait, so you're saying that the loans are worth it when dealing with the .01% of the population that will dismiss your degree as crap?

Getting lost in double negatives, here.
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Sure Jon, you put up a list awhile ago concerning which programs are not good (or something of that nature). Let's assume that all the programs on that list are sneered at by that .01%. In the case of those programs it wouldn't be worth the $200,000 in loans if they plan on working with you, or people who share that point of view, on a daily basis.

Of course, if someone is doing it for their own reasons, and the debt is worthwhile to him or her, then who is to say otherwise...
 
Therapist4Chnge said:
Not this argument again....much like APA-acred issues, some people try and put APA-acred up on this pedestal as THE IDEAL, when in fact it is the MINIMUM level of standards adopted by the field. Trying to say that unless you want to be in academia or competitive for a top internship site, any program would suffice is a weak argument. Stop trying to pick on the extremes within the field. People will still do what they want, but it is disingenuous to twist unrelated data to try and support your view.
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That isn't my argument.

I agree with standards, and I certainly think that it is a good thing. An extremely large amount of people don't, and most of them will go see the first therapist they like without regards for standards or credentials.
 
Enough with the half-baked math and assumptions.

The point is, the people that care most about the rigor of your training, your degree, and the name on your diploma (no matter how many of these people there are in the gen pop) are the ones who have the most impact on your career, earning potential, and employment. Joe Blow from the street opinion of my degree doesnt matter to me, Joe Blow, Ph.D. who direct the VA mental health clinic does. Get it?
 
Jegg said:
That isn't my argument.

I agree with standards, and I certainly think that it is a good thing. An extremely large amount of people don't, and most of them will go see the first therapist they like without regards for standards or credentials.
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For the clinician to be in a position to see a patient, they need someone willing to hire them. Arguing that the population at large doesn't know the difference is short-sighted because fellow professionals do, and that could significantly limit a person's options.

While I am not an internship director/clinical director, a number of my colleagues are, and the training program definitely impacts an applicant's viability. People will do what they want, I just want to make sure students understand the choices they make before year 1 will impact their opportunities during year 5, 6, 7, etc.
 
erg923 said:
Enough with the half-baked math and assumptions.

The point is, the people that care most about the rigor of your training, your degree, and the name on your diploma (no matter how many of these people there are in the gen pop) are the ones who have the most impact on your career, earning potential, and employment. Joe Blow from the street opinion of my degree doesnt matter to me, Joe Blow, Ph.D. who direct the VA mental health clinic does. Get it?
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For the most part I agree. However, having worked in the world of rural social work for a while, I can tell you that many times the local social services centers and CSBs will take who they can get (as long you can bill Medicaid) regardless of where you actually got your degree. In addition, the people who are coming to those centers have no idea about the difference between a university based degree and a professional school degree, nor would I think they would care.
 
Jegg, you may have some points here and there in what you've said, yet ultimately the purpose of my OP is to bypass the "training" or "prestige" debate because that certainly is debatable. I would put my clinical training up against anyone out there.

That is far from the point, at least in this thread. The REAL things in life are what matter....think Maslow....house, income, family, etc.

Youngins with those doe eyed dreams of being a clinician need to hear this. They need to know that it may not be worth it....that mathematically it's absurd to pursue the degree until they either get into a funded program or things change here in the US clinical training systems.
 
Just to quell the debate thing...people from my program often go to VA and prestigious post docs. Yale loves us and has a rich history of hiring us in fellowships. I'm already in an institute fellowship myself and have an appic post doc lined up.

Again, this really is not the point. The aim here is at the real life cost of the degree.
 
erg923 said:
Enough with the half-baked math and assumptions.

The point is, the people that care most about the rigor of your training, your degree, and the name on your diploma (no matter how many of these people there are in the gen pop) are the ones who have the most impact on your career, earning potential, and employment. Joe Blow from the street opinion of my degree doesnt matter to me, Joe Blow, Ph.D. who direct the VA mental health clinic does. Get it?
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Well, considering that MA was 1st per capita in psychiatrists, 3rd per capita in psychologists, and 6th in social workers in 2000, it is hardly half-baked. In MA the total percentage of psychiatrists, psychologists and social workers in 2000 was .33% of the population. Even assuming all of those people care, it still isn't a large percentage of the population. Obviously, as you mention, you are interested in that .01% (or lets just call it .33%, as then no one can argue the math, and frankly it is still a small number), so you have justification for your decision. So perhaps it is worth it for you to take out those loans.

Someone who is interested in private practice OTOH would have a different set of considerations for whether taking out $200,000 in loans makes sense, especially when a great number of people don't care about your credentials in that environment. As mentioned, if he or she is getting the degree for personal reasons (e.g. wanting to be the best he or she can possibly be at something despite what other people think) then perhaps it is worth it.
 
Who cares about all these numbers you keeping throwing out! Stop that! Again, you are correct that it doesnt matter to most people (in the general population at large), but the small segment it does matter too are the ones who decide if I get internship, post-docs, or a job. That is, other psychologists (and possibly psychiatrists)! You're making things way to complicated.
 
Jegg said:
Someone who is interested in private practice OTOH would have a different set of considerations for whether taking out $200,000 in loans makes sense, especially when a great number of people don't care about your credentials in that environment. As mentioned, if he or she is getting the degree for personal reasons (e.g. wanting to be the best he or she can possibly be at something despite what other people think) then perhaps it is worth it.
Click to expand...

Ok let me put it this way: outstanding loan principles count against you $ for $ n a mortgage approval. And, if you have anything less than stellar credit with that loan principle you will be denied. SO, if you want to buy a 200,000 home you will need to have income qualifying you for a 400,000 lona principle...and a down payment to match.

THIS IS THE POINT HERE....not the training stuff. It takes an average of 3-5 yrs for a practice to really reach the critical mass of patients necessary for a solid income. So in the meantime, you'll be living in 1 and 2 bedroom apartments until your mid 30s.
 
Just for transparency...my monthly payments will be $1,300 for student loans.

So I'm trying to warn others not to make the same mistakes I have. Forget about training issues for the time being. Life is larger than the mahogany arm chair.
 
aequitasveritas said:
Ok let me put it this way: outstanding loan principles count against you $ for $ n a mortgage approval. And, if you have anything less than stellar credit with that loan principle you will be denied. SO, if you want to buy a 200,000 home you will need to have income qualifying you for a 400,000 lona principle...and a down payment to match.

THIS IS THE POINT HERE....not the training stuff. It takes an average of 3-5 yrs for a practice to really reach the critical mass of patients necessary for a solid income. So in the meantime, you'll be living in 1 and 2 bedroom apartments until your mid 30s.
Click to expand...

Sorry, I was just answering Student's question. I definitely think it is something that people need to consider.

It is interesting how many people I have met that say they would not do the degree again if given the option. On a brighter note, a lady in my town with a degree from Argosy WA makes $3500 for two days of ADHD testing! And, she is very popular among the parents I know. 🙂
 
Jegg said:
Sorry, I was just answering Student's question. I definitely think it is something that people need to consider.

It is interesting how many people I have met that say they would not do the degree again if given the option. On a brighter note, a lady in my town with a degree from Argosy WA makes $3500 for two days of ADHD testing! And, she is very popular among the parents I know. 🙂
Click to expand...

she's an outlier😉
 
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Jon Snow said:
Fascinating.

[wish there was an arched eyebrow smiley).
Click to expand...

Well, sir, you are in luck cause there is!

Dear Jegg: :eyebrow:

With that, I won't get into another debate with yet another member who wishes to argue that all degrees and all training paths are created equal. They are not. If you wish to think that a degree from Argosy and $200K in debt is the same as a degree from [INSERT practically any university-based program with a consistent match rate > 90%] then go right ahead. When you get into the real world and realize you cannot find a job paying more than $65K, are stuck forever renting as opposed to buying a home, struggling to start a family, and God-forbid fighting to enter academia or a medical center, you may see things a bit differently... even if the other 99% of the population doesn't care.
 
O Gurl said:
Well, sir, you are in luck cause there is!

Dear Jegg: :eyebrow:

With that, I won't get into another debate with yet another member who wishes to argue that all degrees and all training paths are created equal. They are not. If you wish to think that a degree from Argosy and $200K in debt is the same as a degree from [INSERT practically any university-based program with a consistent match rate > 90%] then go right ahead. When you get into the real world and realize you cannot find a job paying more than $65K, are stuck forever renting as opposed to buying a home, struggling to start a family, and God-forbid fighting to enter academia or a medical center, you may see things a bit differently... even if the other 99% of the population doesn't care.
Click to expand...

Again, that wasn't my argument.

I also wouldn't agree with the words you are putting in my mouth, which makes it all the more offensive...
 
Good thing I am already married (to a wonderful, wonderful woman). I wonder if there are any studies examining how ones debt level hinders their attraction to the opposite sex. I doubt it, I mean chicks never care about money, right? 😀
 
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