Univ of Michigan uses and kills dog for trauma course

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MooSuga

MooSuga

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The University of Michigan (Ann Arbor) purchases dogs from shelters and use them for their trauma course and kills them.

Gratiot, Mecosta, and Montcalm county animal shelters provide Class B animal dealer R&R Research with live dogs who are sold to the University of Michigan for Advanced Trauma Life Support courses. At UM, these courses involve cutting open live, anesthetized dogs and practicing emergency medical procedures.

After the training session, the animals are killed. This happens even though UM owns a validated non-animal teaching method as part of its state-of-the-art medical simulation center.

For more info on the article: please visit http://www.pcrm.org/resch/atls/michigan/dogs.html

Or write to the school to help save animals. I think choosing a career as a veterinarian means that your helping or trying to save a life. They say in shelters if you adopt an animal you save two lives. These shelter make a profit selling these poor animals to UM, the whole point of being a shelter is provide care for these animals..sad and disgusting case.

Please call, e-mail, or write a letter to U-M Medical School dean James Woolliscroft, M.D., and politely ask him to end animal use in the institution’s ATLS courses. Being polite is the most effective way to help these animals. Send an automatic e-mail.


James Woolliscroft, M.D.
Dean
University of Michigan Medical School
M4101 Medical Science Building 1
1301 Catherine Road
Ann Arbor, MI 48109-5624
E-mail: [email protected]
Phone: 734-764-8175
 
MooSuga said:
Please call, e-mail, or write a letter to U-M Medical School dean James Woolliscroft, M.D., and politely ask him to end animal use in the institution's ATLS courses. Being polite is the most effective way to help these animals. Send an automatic e-mail.
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Sorry babe, I am OK with terminal surgeries.

It sucks to put animals down, but I think its one of the necessary evils for the benefits that come to the students.
 
'Univ of Michigan uses and kills dog for trauma course'..................So?
 
Honestly, I'm okay with terminal surgeries too. I'm slightly upset that they don't use research dogs with a known history, but terminal surgeries are excellent teaching tools. As long as it's done in a respectful way with euthanasia before they wake up or adequate care and pain management if they are awakened after surgery, I have no problem with it. Anything you do in veterinary or human medicine is built on the shoulders of animal research. Fortunately, we have become a lot more humane in our practices, which makes it a lot easier to swallow.
 
What everyone else has said...


But.

MooSuga said:
This happens even though UM owns a validated non-animal teaching method as part of its state-of-the-art medical simulation center.
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I assume this is one of those PR moves - "look guys, we own a non-animal teaching option - We LOVE and respect animal rights".

Why the hell does there have to be a non-animal teaching validation - It sets a tone that using animals in teaching is a necessarily evil thing.

I am all for limiting the use of animals in teaching and research.
I am all for ensuring the animals that are used are treated humanly and undergo minimal stress.

But, if I am in a car accident and some novice-green kid out of med school has to put his hands in my chest cavity, I would like him to have done it at least 1 -2x on a dog or pig then on a virtual reality computer simulated video game made by the same people who did the Sims: A Hot Date
 
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Optimistic 13 said:
Well also this isn't refering to Michigan State vet school... this article is talking about the University of Michigan Medical School
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It singles out UM because the group (one that is trying to stop the class) has been trying for years to shut down the class B dealers. UM obtaines animals for the class from a class B dealer. I would argue that these are more appropriate, because of the variation of the class B animals, then purpose bred dogs.

TO Clarify:
When I say "class B animal," I mean an animal from a USDA Class B Dealer

See:
www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_welfare/downloads/manuals/dealer/randomsource.pdf
 
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What is a class B dealer/animal?

Although I'm also saddened by the thought of putting healthy animals down, I'd rather have terminal surgeries done on shelter animals who are slated for death than on animals bred for that purpose. If it were my animal in a trauma situation I would want the vet who practiced on a living animal versus the one who did the simulated computer model. No matter how advanced they've become it just isn't the same thing as working with living tissue, slippery fat and oozing blood vessels.

Nevermind, I just read the pdf. I'd feel better if the animals used were unadoptable (ie: behavioral and/or medical issues)
 
CatVet2Be said:
What is a class B dealer/animal?
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Read the .pdf I posted for full info..
CatVet2Be said:
shelter animals who are slated for death
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Class B dealers are the people who get the animals slated for death from the shelter and then sell them to research institutions. (there are other parts to this definition, again for the full definition look at the .pdf)

Class B animals is not a legal term, only what I used to mean an animal from a Class B dealer
 
CatVet2Be said:
What is a class B dealer/animal?

Nevermind, I just read the pdf. I'd feel better if the animals used were unadoptable (ie: behavioral and/or medical issues)
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Ahhh if only animals slated for euthanasia at the shelters were only unadoptable......

That not being the case is one reason I am more comfortable with these animals being used, rather than using purpose bred animals.
 
I agree with terminal surgeries. As a (hopeful:xf:) soon to be DVM student I would not rely on skills I learned in a "video game" option. Live animal surgeries offer an experience that can not be obtained from simulation or cadavers and I think it is necessary. As long as the animals are humanely euthanized and treated in a respectful manner. My question is do all schools physically harm the animal prior to the emergency care. The animals slated to be euthanized have to include ones that injured already and therefore don't need further abuse for the sake of learning. Just a thought...
 
I know here at TN, we don't purposely injure the animals before our terminal surgery elective and several procedures are done on the same animal (such as a renal biopsy, gastropexy, liver biopsy, etc.) before it is humanely euthanized while still under anesthesia.

The explanation that I heard at my Auburn interview as to why purpose animals were used is that they don't want the "bad press" in the community of taking animals that theoretically could have owners in the community for terminal surgeries, even if they are unadoptable and have not been claimed. Here at TN I believe we use purpose bred dogs that are slated for euthanasia after pharmaceutical trials and other research studies. Many of them are quite old (over 10-12) and have reached the end of their research usefulness.
 
Actually, very few veterinary schools do any terminal surgeries anymore.

Medical schools are another matter.

However, to those people saying terminal surgeries are a great learning experience...SURGERY on a live animal is a great experience, not necessarily TERMINAL surgery. Terminal surgery is never necessary for education. I see no educational reason for it, since we as veterinarians are never going to perform procedures that end up killing the animal...our job is to have a live animal at the beginning and a live one at the end.

However, on the flip side, we must practice anesthesia, exam, and surgical skills before going out in the field. That is imperative. And we have two choices: purpose bred research dogs and animal control/shelter dogs. Since shelter dogs are considered "potentially owned" ie "maybe lost", until their euth date, we cannot use them until then.

I would much prefer practicing my spay skills on a shelter dog who was going to be euthed anyway, and gently do it myself at the end of sx with appropriate respect and pain management, then practicing on a purpose bred dog who is going to live out it's entire life in a lab/kennel/facility.

Client and rescue owned animals are an alternative, but are SO sparse....there are never enough clients willing to let third years do anything more than spay or neuter. I mean seriously...would you be ok having your animal undergo major abdominal surgery by someone who had never cut into anything living?
 
1) shelters were developed to reduce the population of stray/unwanted animals in public areas, for the safety of the general public. Many county/parish shelter staff also manage litter control and nuisance animals. The adoption programs are a side effect of the high rates of stray/unwanted animals being destroyed.

2) I disagree that "Terminal surgery is never necessary for education." I have completed 4 terminal surgeries, all on fish and cephlapods. All involved inserting electrodes into brain tissue. Theoretically, we may have been able to recover the fish, which would likely have been brain damaged. We could not have done the research without damaging the brain (we were studying purkinje cells in toxicity studies.) These studies will hopefully contribute to understanding toxicity, including ways to protect the brains post exposure, and to understanding some unusual diseases including autism. Unless education in actual research is irresponsible, there may be occasions where terminal surgery is necessary.

Having said all of that. I would take humane euthanasia over the samples I took while working for NOAA. Mostly on still living fish that I couldn't kill due to market value, so essentially I was performing unanesthatized surgery to take occicle and vertebrae samples. I also took fin and flipper samples on live dolphins and turtles. Not my favorite thing, but the best option for the conditions.
 
sumstorm

Sorry, I didn't clarify...terminal surgery may be necessary in some research, where you need to induce disease in order to test something (my summer project on autoimmune disease included sacrificing 30+ mice at the end because they were entering renal failure, so I'm no stranger to the unfortunate need to end research animals lives at many points)

what I meant was, it is necessary to learn a spay on a live animal, but it is not necessary to kill the animal afterwards. I.e., the learning comes from the surgery, not the death of the animal.

In research, sometimes, it is necessary to perform procedures that would leave the animal, usually a lower order animal in a moribund or painful state, in which case euthanasia is warranted...and then you learn from the body/tissues....but that's a little different than basic vetmed Sx education....I'm not very good at explaining this, but do you sort of see what I mean?

The "terminal" aspect of surgery may be necessary for some research purposes, but in the general surgical scope of basic veterinary education, it is not necessary.
 
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I thought the point of terminal surgery was to reduce suffering? I could be wrong, but let me try to explain a little. If students need or want to learn painful procedures, especially multiple painful procedures on live animals, what should they do? They could use many, many animals - doing only one procedure on each so no animal has to suffer more than one painful procedure. Or, they could do multiple surgeries on one animal, recovering it after each surgery. In the first case, many animals suffer, but they suffer a little less. In the second case, one animal is suffering a lot.

I don't know how feasible it us to use many animals per student, but if you're using one animal for multiple surgeries like Pressmom described, how can you justify recovering them? I just feel like they'd go through so much and be in so much pain when they could have been euthanized peacefully on the table. I guess this means more with older animals who are unadoptable or at the end of their research career. It's much harder to justify with young, healthy animals.
 
WhtsThFrequency said:
However, on the flip side, we must practice anesthesia, exam, and surgical skills before going out in the field. That is imperative. And we have two choices: purpose bred research dogs and animal control/shelter dogs. Since shelter dogs are considered "potentially owned" ie "maybe lost", until their euth date, we cannot use them until then.
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Actually, I don't believe this is quite correct. There is a holding period (often 5 or so days), during which the animal is kept in case it is claimed. Following that, however, the animal becomes the shelter's property - and they can euthanize or offer the animal for adoption.
 
No Imagination said:
But, if I am in a car accident and some novice-green kid out of med school has to put his hands in my chest cavity, I would like him to have done it at least 1 -2x on a dog or pig then on a virtual reality computer simulated video game made by the same people who did the Sims: A Hot Date
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I understand that a chest cavity is different from an eye, but a few weeks ago I asked my dad about his opinion on computer simulations as an educational tool in medical school (he's an ophthalmologist). I was of the opinion that surely, working on a living thing is much closer to the real thing. But he told me that you actually feel like you're cutting into an eye, between the texture and the pressure needed and what you see. Of course, these tools cost a lot of money, but my point is that they are much more like the real thing than a computer game. Honestly, I would have a doc who did their training on the human simulation than on a pig with anatomy that's different from mine.
 
I wonder if this is something that's common just to the schools in rural areas? Does anyone know if they do terminal surgeries at UPenn? It's such a high volume hospital I would imagine there are lots of opportunites to practice real, necessary surgeries. Not that the terminal ones aren't real... but you know what I mean 😛. All of the vets I work with are UPenn grads and none of them have ever mentioned this... I know they have a Beagle colony there but I think that's just a research colony, I don't think it's used for this.

I can't say I find the practice objectionable, but it's something I'd love not to do if I didn't have to. Vet schools aren't to blame for the larger issue of good animals winding up in kill shelters... or the sad fact that kill shelters are a necessity. I think a third party dealer is a bit shady, quite a bit actually... but without the middle man I don't have an ethical problem with it. Although it's still sad 🙁

ETA: My husband is a human doctor. They did pig terminal surgeries in med school... one of his classmates described some of it to me... it was trauma stuff, the pig was under anesthesia and the professor would stab or slash something and say "OK, fix it!", and they euthanized without ever waking it up. I wouldn't let my husband talk about it when he did it because I didn't want to think of him participating in that... but I still think it's justifiable. And there were no dogs or cats etc... The pig was only used for trauma, just that once during their entire time in med school. Most of their learning was done on a cadavar, and scrubbing in to actual surgeries during 3rd and 4th year. But human medicine residencies are looonnngggg for a reason... he's only now actually doing surgeries, supervised and only minor procedures, as a first year surgical resident. They move at a much slower pace than we do because many of them will never be doing surgeries... so there's no reason for them to learn it in school. Only vets have the cool job of practicing medicine and doing many of our own surgeries =)

sorry for any misspellings... I'm too lazy to spell check right now.
 
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I think it is always easier to say that terminal surgeries are okay when the only interaction you have with the dog is cutting it open on a surgery table. I use to work for a place that kept dogs for terminal surgeries until it was time for the lab. It is so different when you get to know each dog and spend each day caring for them. It isn't so easy to be okay with terminal surgeries when you get to know the animals personally. I realize that it is important to have hands on experience, but I don't like how quickly some are to desensitize the process.
 
Shanomong said:
ETA: My husband is a human doctor. They did pig terminal surgeries in med school... one of his classmates described some of it to me... it was trauma stuff, the pig was under anesthesia and the professor would stab or slash something and say "OK, fix it!", and they euthanized without ever waking it up.
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Very Grey's Anatomy. Haha. Lovely how they glorify things like that on that show... not that I'll stop watching it because of that... 😀
 
twelvetigers said:
Very Grey's Anatomy. Haha. Lovely how they glorify things like that on that show... not that I'll stop watching it because of that... 😀
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I don't watch that show, did they do an episode on this??! Lol I'd love to see a youtube clip of it...
 
THe episode I'm thinking of is called Life During Wartime and while I don't know if there are clips on YouTube, I do know that you can watch past episodes of Grey's A at any time on abc.com's player. It's actually pretty nice of them to have all past episodes up - I appreciate it when I forget to DVR it.

If you'd rather just get the gist, here's part of a synopsis:

Dr. Owen Hunt, the military field surgeon, is back at Seattle Grace, where he's been named chief of trauma. He leads a "skills lab" to help surgical interns and residents learn how to deal with trauma cases. He draws back a curtain to reveal several anesthetized pigs -- each of whom he then stabs! "Go ahead, save their lives," he tells the shocked group. "You're a monster," Izzie says and marches out.
Izzie won't work on the pigs, but she has to work with Hunt, who spends all day informing her of the many medical advances based on animal experimentation. She angrily tells him, "You are torturing animals in an age where we have the technology that no longer requires us to. You want to do that, go ahead, but don't tell me I'm less of a doctor for walking away."
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P.S. Grey's is my porn. Don't critcize. 😉
 
There is a holding period (often 5 or so days), during which the animal is kept in case it is claimed. Following that, however, the animal becomes the shelter's property - and they can euthanize or offer the animal for adoption.


Yes, that is what I meant/said. we are unable to acquire shelter animals until the euth date. The euth date may be the day they are actually euthed due to lack of space, or if the shelter has space they may hang on to them. It is during that holding period that they cannot be taken because they are waiting on a possible owner.

P.S. Grey's is my porn. Don't critcize

House is my porn 😉 Hence why I could never be a clinician....
 
Shanomong said:
I wonder if this is something that's common just to the schools in rural areas? Does anyone know if they do terminal surgeries at UPenn? It's such a high volume hospital I would imagine there are lots of opportunites to practice real, necessary surgeries. Not that the terminal ones aren't real... but you know what I mean 😛.
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No, UPenn has completely eliminated terminal surgeries from its curriculum. So has Tufts, Cornell, RVC (for over 50 years!), and I think UCD as well as some others. Most give their students the options to choose as well. I don't know if its only the case at 'rural' schools that they still do terminal surgeries. Personally, I am not okay with doing a terminal surgery, which is why I chose to apply only to schools where I won't have to do them. I think practicing on live animals is very important to become a good surgeon, but I think there are many viable ways to exclude the practice of terminal surgeries in veterinary education. Like WhatsthFrequency said, many (most?) vet schools don't use terminal surgeries anymore and are continuing to develop the alternatives.
 
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Poochlover, the same could be said by those of us who raised animals for food. The vast majority of people, including vet students, have very little idea of just how much energy and effort goes into raising livestock on small pastoral farms and the connections one obtains with the animals they raise....and most never even want to imagine the shocking reality of industrial farming. So I do sympathize...but not sure if it is really any different than how the shelter staff feels when they have to destroy (in our county, gas) a stray or abandoned dog or cat. I still can't eat pork and can only eat beef if I knew its name and face before it reached my plate. It is very important to me that these animals, regardless of thier fate, have at least a little time enjoying life.

Dearest husband already knows that I would be more likely to work towards recovering an animal and adding it to the pack.

As for human medical education..I think part of the reason it progresses with less speed is that the average pay is better when you do get done....so you can afford to pay for the extra time.
 
Haha! I won't judge... whatever turns you on. That synopsis is pretty dramatic for me though. That said... I'm watching my first ever episode of Desperate Housewives right now, and I think I might be hooked. This show is hillarious.

twelvetigers said:
THe episode I'm thinking of is called Life During Wartime and while I don't know if there are clips on YouTube, I do know that you can watch past episodes of Grey's A at any time on abc.com's player. It's actually pretty nice of them to have all past episodes up - I appreciate it when I forget to DVR it.

If you'd rather just get the gist, here's part of a synopsis:



P.S. Grey's is my porn. Don't critcize. 😉
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Shanomong said:
I wonder if this is something that's common just to the schools in rural areas? Does anyone know if they do terminal surgeries at UPenn? It's such a high volume hospital I would imagine there are lots of opportunites to practice real, necessary surgeries.
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The problem is the people who can afford the "real, necessary surgeries" for their animals also tend to want the "real surgeons" performing the procedures on their animals.

There is also the logistics of it. What happens if a femur fracture doesn't happen to occur during your rotation for you to practice on? What if it does happen and you botch the pin placement on a clients animal?

Terminal surgeries allow the students to get the experience without the huge liability of working on personally owned patients. It also allows students to do procedures that are most beneficial to their education at the time as they can plan which ones they will do. I'd much rather learn how to pin a femur during school than a TPO, TPLO, TTA or any other crazy orthopedic surgery acronym that is more likely to be referred to the teaching hospital(instead of being doing by the referring vet).
 
sumstorm said:
As for human medical education..I think part of the reason it progresses with less speed is that the average pay is better when you do get done....so you can afford to pay for the extra time.
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Not sure I follow that? They get paid for the residency so they're not spending extra $$.... though they make less than the nurses, about minimum wage when you average out the hours worked :smack:
 
david594 said:
The problem is the people who can afford the "real, necessary surgeries" for their animals also tend to want the "real surgeons" performing the procedures on their animals.

There is also the logistics of it. What happens if a femur fracture doesn't happen to occur during your rotation for you to practice on? What if it does happen and you botch the pin placement on a clients animal?

Terminal surgeries allow the students to get the experience without the huge liability of working on personally owned patients. It also allows students to do procedures that are most beneficial to their education at the time as they can plan which ones they will do. I'd much rather learn how to pin a femur during school than a TPO, TPLO, TTA or any other crazy orthopedic surgery acronym that is more likely to be referred to the teaching hospital(instead of being doing by the referring vet).
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Don't know if you read my whole post? I didn't say I was against the practice... just that I didn't think it happened at Penn. And I was right. As for TPLO's and the like... that's what an orthopedic residency is for, no?
 
Shanomong said:
Don't know if you read my whole post? I didn't say I was against the practice... just that I didn't think it happened at Penn. And I was right. As for TPLO's and the like... that's what an orthopedic residency is for, no?
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Right. But you mentioned students learning on animals coming to the teaching hospital for necessary surgeries. You have to consider that all of the teaching hospitals are predominately large specialty referral hospitals. Many of these clients are only there because their regular DVM has referred them there because what the animal needs is beyond their abilities. So many of the procedures that are more common there are going to be the things that are above the skill set a vet student would be looking to. Many of the procedures that would be most beneficial to the students are the ones that the rDVM's are doing and not referring to the large specialty center.
 
Shanomong said:
Don't know if you read my whole post? I didn't say I was against the practice... just that I didn't think it happened at Penn. And I was right. As for TPLO's and the like... that's what an orthopedic residency is for, no?
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Yeah, I have read that during the general 4 years of vet school, the idea is not to become an expert surgeon that knows what to do in every instance, but rather to learn good maneuverability and more basic surgery skills. I could be completely wrong, but I'm inclined to agree that a more specialized surgery would be learned during a residency.

Also, it's very likely that clients paying for expensive procedures don't want a novice doing it. But some schools have solved this problem by having students operate (while supervised) on sick/injured animals of clients who normally wouldn't be able to afford it or shelter animals (a mutually beneficial deal). Of course, clients still may not consent and this type of program would leave less room for planning a regimented surgery curriculum like david said. But it is also a way of reducing the need for terminal surgeries.
 
david594 said:
Right. But you mentioned students learning on animals coming to the teaching hospital for necessary surgeries. You have to consider that all of the teaching hospitals are predominately large specialty referral hospitals. Many of these clients are only there because their regular DVM has referred them there because what the animal needs is beyond their abilities. So many of the procedures that are more common there are going to be the things that are above the skill set a vet student would be looking to. Many of the procedures that would be most beneficial to the students are the ones that the rDVM's are doing and not referring to the large specialty center.
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Idk I think that pertains more to a rural school, like Cornell. VHUP includes emergency, which encompasses all of the normal surgeries, just at different hours or on Sunday =). I work in a hospital that offers the same stuff Penn does (but fewer specialties) and we see everything short of vaccines. And even those get done for our pets and a rescue we work with. I toured Cornell's hospital, and it seems like they deal a lot more with the referrals and on-site colonies than the immediate emergencies because of the remote location... But Penn get's all of the usual stuff, non-referrall, through their emergency clinic. They do financing there which is nice, we send them some stuff when that's an option the client needs.

ETA: hopefulvet21, that is something our hospital does. We have a resident (yea...one lol), and we're about to start an intern program. We had a case today actually that was a financial concern, surgical case, so we called our resident to see if he could do it so that we could secure the lower price. It's beneficial to all involved =), and always supervised.
 
Poochlover11 said:
I think it is always easier to say that terminal surgeries are okay when the only interaction you have with the dog is cutting it open on a surgery table. I use to work for a place that kept dogs for terminal surgeries until it was time for the lab. It is so different when you get to know each dog and spend each day caring for them. It isn't so easy to be okay with terminal surgeries when you get to know the animals personally. I realize that it is important to have hands on experience, but I don't like how quickly some are to desensitize the process.
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What about those of us who are already desensitized?

Maybe it makes me really cold, but having worked in a research cat colony for a year and now doing my own research there, it's easy to realize that these animals are not pet animals. They are animals who have a job to do and a purpose in life. We don't have any terminal research going on at our facility right now, but we do sell cats to others who do terminal research, and it sort of sucks when a staff member or student's favorite cat gets sold off to a lab that we know does invasive or terminal stuff, but it's kind of just something that you learn to deal with on your own terms.

Some people can't deal, and they are obviously not emotionally cut out for it, but some of us are quite good at separating out and balancing our emotions and reactions to that sort of thing, I guess! And I take issue with the implication that the only reason a person could be okay with the idea of terminal surgeries is because they don't "understand."
 
I thought I knew what terminal surgeries are but now I think I am getting confused (maybe just reading too many posts at 4AM?) Anyway, could someone give me a clear definition so I can understand why vet schools are outlawing it?

I think I need to go back to bed...

Oh, and my medical porn tv is Untold Stories of the ER.
 
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Thank you, thank you Nyanko. I don't think I could've managed to say that better. I've worked with pigs and they have every bit as much personality and are just as cute as dogs IMHO. When you come in, you understand that some of them are going to be used for terminal procedures and you deal with it. Just as at the shelter, you realize that some of your favorite cats just aren't going to find homes and you and the staff can't take them all yourselves. So you learn to deal with it.
 
Yes, I know it is important to learn to deal in order to be in the profession. It was hard for me at first because that job was sort of my first experience with that. But I learned to seperate from work, and not get too attached. I just always try to remember though that they are living breathing animals and have their own personalities. Some of them use to be pets, because we got them from shelters. They were usually older, but very kind and so happy to get any attention. I know you have to desensitize, but I just want to make sure I still have some heart left, and not go to far in the other direction.
 
hopefulvet21 said:
No, UPenn has completely eliminated terminal surgeries from its curriculum. So has Tufts, Cornell, RVC (for over 50 years!), and I think UCD as well as some others. Most give their students the options to choose as well. I don't know if its only the case at 'rural' schools that they still do terminal surgeries. Personally, I am not okay with doing a terminal surgery, which is why I chose to apply only to schools where I won't have to do them. I think practicing on live animals is very important to become a good surgeon, but I think there are many viable ways to exclude the practice of terminal surgeries in veterinary education. Like WhatsthFrequency said, many (most?) vet schools don't use terminal surgeries anymore and are continuing to develop the alternatives.
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You all are talking about veterinary curriculums. This is not a veterinary school.
This is human surgeons training. Not like the Grey's show, they don't try to "fix" something that is done. They are learning how to place chest tubes, perform tracheotomies, and other things need in the ER.
 
nyanko said:
And I take issue with the implication that the only reason a person could be okay with the idea of terminal surgeries is because they don't "understand."
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I am sorry, I didn't mean to offend you. I simply feel like some people who do surgeries on the dogs don't know or care where the animal came from. And even though they were used for an experiment, that doesn't mean that they couldn't have been someone's pet. Some of the dogs would have been really good pets. Like I said in my previous post I know it is important to deal-because when you are vet you will have to euthanize animals. To me it is important to maintain some heart and be able to sympathize with owners. Like I said I didn't mean to offend you. I understand that anyone who wants to be a vet needs to learn to deal with this because it is a part of the profession.
 
Sanomong, yes, residents get paid and it is close to min wage.... but for many students with 100k in loans, minimum wage won't cut it, especially if thier income is likely to be around 50k/yr, not 100k/yr. In college, my 3 closest friends all went to med school after college. I was the only one who didn't, because I didn't love human medicine. All of them had grants, scholarships, or options of exchanging work for loan repayment. Those aren't the most common options for vet students. I don't know of any program currently that will repay half your debt for 2 years of work in a designated place while you still get paid, perhaps on the low end, but not minimum wage. The options are very different between med school and vet school. It is easier to recover costs for med school. There are more options available, both in admissions, financial aid, and post-graduation.

Residencies, even after vet school, only make sense if they satisfy some economic realities or are required to practice. Med schools have advantages in both of those areas.
 
chris03333 said:
You all are talking about veterinary curriculums. This is not a veterinary school.
This is human surgeons training. Not like the Grey's show, they don't try to "fix" something that is done. They are learning how to place chest tubes, perform tracheotomies, and other things need in the ER.
Click to expand...

Yes I know that's what the original article was referring to, but someone above asked about UPenn Vet school doing terminal surgeries so I was just answering that question.
 
sumstorm said:
Sanomong, yes, residents get paid and it is close to min wage.... but for many students with 100k in loans, minimum wage won't cut it, especially if thier income is likely to be around 50k/yr, not 100k/yr. In college, my 3 closest friends all went to med school after college. I was the only one who didn't, because I didn't love human medicine. All of them had grants, scholarships, or options of exchanging work for loan repayment. Those aren't the most common options for vet students. I don't know of any program currently that will repay half your debt for 2 years of work in a designated place while you still get paid, perhaps on the low end, but not minimum wage. The options are very different between med school and vet school. It is easier to recover costs for med school. There are more options available, both in admissions, financial aid, and post-graduation.

Residencies, even after vet school, only make sense if they satisfy some economic realities or are required to practice. Med schools have advantages in both of those areas.
Click to expand...

Not really following, sorry. Who makes 50k or 100k? As a first year resident my husband makes 44k. And his student loans are 250k. There is no loan forgiveness for surgical residents, that's more for family practice, which is one small area of human medicine. Vets, in my experience, make an average of 60k out of vet school (not during residency if they choose to do it though), and around 85-100k after completing a one year internship... a good deal more than that if they specialize and have finished a residency. They have to take a much huger pay cut in order to do their residency (where I used to work, interns made 23k... in Manhattan...) but the residencies are much shorter. My husband will be a general surgery resident for 5 years, and if he wants to specialize he will do another 2-3 years in a fellowship depending on which specialty he choses. In the end, he'll make a hell of a lot more than I do, but he'll have invested a hell of a lot more time than I did... so I think it's a fair trade.

And he didn't have scholarships or grants for med school. Most of our friends didn't. And I don't know anyone who participated in the loan forgiveness for working in an underprivelidged area thing... If your friends received all of that aid they're the exception, not the rule. Most med students, if their parents arent paying for the education, end up paying it back in full plus interest. The main advantage they have is a salary that in the end is 3-4x ours... at least if they're surgeons. I can't speak for other fields. I know family practice and pedes make less.
 
Poochlover11 said:
I am sorry, I didn't mean to offend you. I simply feel like some people who do surgeries on the dogs don't know or care where the animal came from.
Click to expand...

I think that can be true for some investigators, too. It's important to maintain respect and compassion for the research animals you're working with, even as you understand why they're here and that their use is important or necessary. I think that's something like what you're trying to say, and I agree with you. 🙂
 
Pandacinny said:
I think that can be true for some investigators, too. It's important to maintain respect and compassion for the research animals you're working with, even as you understand why they're here and that their use is important or necessary. I think that's something like what you're trying to say, and I agree with you. 🙂
Click to expand...


Yes, thanks. 🙂
 
hopefulvet21 said:
Yes I know that's what the original article was referring to, but someone above asked about UPenn Vet school doing terminal surgeries so I was just answering that question.
Click to expand...

Right but UPenn has the ATLS course, so that would be more of a valid comparision, that is what I meant.
 
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