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I e-mailed this to our financial aid advisor earlier today. I really don't know why the big guns weren't aimed at this one a lot sooner.
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I'd like to think AMSA for doing nothing to stop this. I mean, I imagine they get busy:
but I'd think they could at least mention it on their web page.
but I'd think they could at least mention it on their web page.
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AMSA cares nothing at all for medical students. Given their leftist history and ideology, the poorer doctors are the better.
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I posted this as an announcement silly cerb.
But yes, this is a blow to all current 4th years and residents. I posted a link to Sen Dodd's legislation that was introduced specifically for medical education that will go to the committee I believe. We need to get our senators and the committee to pass this ASAP.
But yes, this is a blow to all current 4th years and residents. I posted a link to Sen Dodd's legislation that was introduced specifically for medical education that will go to the committee I believe. We need to get our senators and the committee to pass this ASAP.
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I never look at the announcements.
...and therefore it must be AMSA's fault.
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"Poverty" is a little extreme, don't you think?
Is the Act in question the "Higher Education Access Act of 2007?" Because, if it is, one of the highlights included was interesting: "Reduces interest rates on Stafford and other federally backed loans from 6.8 percent to 3.4 percent over the period from 2008-2013"
Not that it's a fair trade-off - I certainly don't think that current residents and upperclassman med students deserve to pay for us to have a lower-interest loan. Just food for thought.
Is the Act in question the "Higher Education Access Act of 2007?" Because, if it is, one of the highlights included was interesting: "Reduces interest rates on Stafford and other federally backed loans from 6.8 percent to 3.4 percent over the period from 2008-2013"
Not that it's a fair trade-off - I certainly don't think that current residents and upperclassman med students deserve to pay for us to have a lower-interest loan. Just food for thought.
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I don't think the word choice of poverty is extreme at all. We are talking about paying over 10% of our pre-tax salary on student loans. This would be one thing if we were making a decent salary, but we are not. We are making jack squat, working ridiculous hours, will be significantly older than most people entering the workforce. What are we supposed to do if we have families? What if we end up doing our residencies in an expensive city? What if we have an unforseen emergency leaving our spouse unable to work? What is the government going to do when we fail to pay? Make us work more? Take our degrees away?
I can't believe you people aren't up in arms about this👎thumbdown
The inability of Medical Students to get upset about this, and the inability of our representative groups to have stopped it in the first place is why we are going down the sh*tter as a profession. We are so used to taking crap that none of us are even willing to standup for ourselves.
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Digging deeper, I'm actually starting to get angry:
"Provides for $5,000 in loan forgiveness over a period of five years for those employed in areas of national need, including early childhood educators, nurses, librarians, foreign language specialists, highly qualified teachers in bilingual education or in low-income schools, child welfare workers, speech-language pathologists, those engaged in national service, school counselors, and public sector employees (Title I (sec. 131))."
Isn't there a national need for doctors?
"Eliminates the three-year deferment limit under the FFEL, DL, and PL programs for borrowers who are serving on active duty or performing qualifying National Guard duty during a war or other military operation or national emergency. Extends such deferment for 180 days after demobilization. Removes language limiting such deferments to loans for which the first disbursement was made after June 2001."
How else would we be able to keep our servicemen overseas indefinitely, if they had loans to repay?
"Provides for $5,000 in loan forgiveness over a period of five years for those employed in areas of national need, including early childhood educators, nurses, librarians, foreign language specialists, highly qualified teachers in bilingual education or in low-income schools, child welfare workers, speech-language pathologists, those engaged in national service, school counselors, and public sector employees (Title I (sec. 131))."
Isn't there a national need for doctors?
"Eliminates the three-year deferment limit under the FFEL, DL, and PL programs for borrowers who are serving on active duty or performing qualifying National Guard duty during a war or other military operation or national emergency. Extends such deferment for 180 days after demobilization. Removes language limiting such deferments to loans for which the first disbursement was made after June 2001."
How else would we be able to keep our servicemen overseas indefinitely, if they had loans to repay?
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If you look a little more closely, you'll see that the interest rate reduction only applies to undergrads. So no fair tradeoff.
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I didn't see that - where did you find it?
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The average salary of NSGY is still >400,000 how am i going to be in poverty? maybe as a resident of fire island...
Granted, switching off our repayments to reduce college loans is pretty sneaky, and you know that they got away with it by saying "oh doctors make lots of money, they won't notice the difference" and people bought it. Oh well, here's to applying md/phd.
Granted, switching off our repayments to reduce college loans is pretty sneaky, and you know that they got away with it by saying "oh doctors make lots of money, they won't notice the difference" and people bought it. Oh well, here's to applying md/phd.
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Well, for one, we don't all go into neurosurgery. In fact, lots of us are planning on going into lower paid specialties, which admittedly still pay decently, but being $200k in debt coupled with making $140k/year isn't exactly the path to riches. And if you'll read the complaints carefully, you'll see that the discussion is about forcing RESIDENTS to put 15% of their pretty meager salary toward student loans, not neurosurgeons making $400k/year.
And we can't all do md/phds, nor would it be good for medicine if everyone decides to go on that path.
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Bankruptcy won't help anyhow. Educational debt is not forgiven. And, the bankruptcy laws have gotten much stricter with this administration (thanks to the credit card lobby).
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You can consolidate your student loans on the secondary market at a low interest rate and, while you lose the option to defer (which you are going to lose anyways) the payment on the typical debt is not that much.
This law will probably encourage more people who would have deferred to instead consolidate with private lenders. Student loans are all private money with the government acting as the guarantor and paying interest for deferred loans and the principle for those in default. Private lendors snap up medical student debt on the (I guess you'd call it) the tertiary market (sold once by the original lendor to the secondary market but still backed by the government and sold again without a guarantor) because doctors are good finanacial risks.
This law will probably encourage more people who would have deferred to instead consolidate with private lenders. Student loans are all private money with the government acting as the guarantor and paying interest for deferred loans and the principle for those in default. Private lendors snap up medical student debt on the (I guess you'd call it) the tertiary market (sold once by the original lendor to the secondary market but still backed by the government and sold again without a guarantor) because doctors are good finanacial risks.
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deleted36260
Will that is sad to hear. So residents will get hit with ~$350/month to pay. This does NOTHING to help pay the loan back, but makes sure that residents have less money on already pathetic salaries.
Who the hell created and sponsored this??
Who the hell created and sponsored this??
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deleted77919
As stated before most people in medicine will not be neurosurgeons. But even if you are a neurosurgeon, how will your employment be set up? Will you be an independent contractor, if so, watch out for the additional taxes.
First consider your high tax bracket (esp if the dems "roll back" the Bush tax cuts). Next depending on how your group is set up, you might be paying self employment tax (add 15.3%). Your marginal tax rate is (35% federal + State + 15.3% self employment) = >50%. Your average rate will be approaching 50%. That $400,000 has now become $200,000. Still a lot of money, but not nearly so impressive sounding.
Here's a bit on self employment tax and who qualifies as an independent contractor if you are curious.
Independent contractor. People such as doctors, dentists, veterinarians, lawyers, accountants, contractors, subcontractors, public stenographers, or auctioneers who
are in an independent trade, business, or profession in which they offer their services to the general public are generally independent contractors. However, whether these people are independent contractors or employees depends on the facts in each case. The general rule is that an individual is an independent contractor if the payer has the
right to control or direct only the result of the work and not what will be done and how it will be done. The earnings of a person who is working as an independent contractor are subject to SE (self employment) tax.
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deleted77919
Keep in mind current loans are made at 6.8%. Assuming $50k is borrowed/yr and that payments are not made during medical school and a debt load of $200,000 is quite realistic. Assuming even a full 1.0% reduction in rate through consolidation, at 5.8% a 15 year $250,000 loan will have a monthly payment of $1,666.18. Stretch it out to 30 years and it's $1,173.51/month and you get the pleasure of paying that until you are 60 years old (assuming you are not a non-trad . . . and that represents a total payout of $422,459.81). Again, these are fairly conservative because they assume getting a 1.0% rate cut through consolidation.
How well can a resident afford to make payments of $1,173.51/month?
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Well if you look at the bills there is a solution to this, in 2009. You will be required to pay 15% of your income in student loans. 🙄 There goes your retirement if you could even afford that.
The thing that annoys me is for the amount of hours worked, residents should still qualify since they are getting paid just barely minimum wage. But as stated, doctors will have enough money. And I think the reason it passed was because of the overall look of the bill not just the one section.
As I stated above, there is a medical education proposal that was introduced in Mar 2007 that was throw into committee. Nothing else was said about it so its either a dead bill or still in discussion. Either way, you need to contact your representatives/senators about this.
Its sad enough that only 67% of residents got deferment, I think it should be based on loan amount considering anything over $100K is considered avg for most med students. The avg debt is now $145K. Education is increasing overall but now the grad students are getting hurt. 👎
The thing that annoys me is for the amount of hours worked, residents should still qualify since they are getting paid just barely minimum wage. But as stated, doctors will have enough money. And I think the reason it passed was because of the overall look of the bill not just the one section.
As I stated above, there is a medical education proposal that was introduced in Mar 2007 that was throw into committee. Nothing else was said about it so its either a dead bill or still in discussion. Either way, you need to contact your representatives/senators about this.
Its sad enough that only 67% of residents got deferment, I think it should be based on loan amount considering anything over $100K is considered avg for most med students. The avg debt is now $145K. Education is increasing overall but now the grad students are getting hurt. 👎
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Do you think there's a good chance they'll actually fix this?
Having to pay out an extra $400/month is a lot to most residents. That's a car payment. 🙁
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Only way we'll know is if we make enough noise. And yes I completely feel for you. After finding this out my husband is quite pissed b/c I'm not sure how we will handle this next year without deferment. I think we'll have to go on income-based repayment but even THAT is a PITA, esp b/c we were going to work on private loans first which I still HOPE they will be defered. After this mess who knows what the lenders will start doing.
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Without going into the details, I'm only paying about $400 per month (just the interest while a resident), have about $160,000 in consolidatable debt, and consolidated at an interest rate of around three percent. There are trade-offs and it's not a perfect deal but that's life.
As for paying a thousand bucks a month for the rest of your life, so what? It seems like a lot now because most of you have never made more than the minimum wage but if you pick your specialty wisely and stay away from things like pediatrics which typically pays very poorly, $12,000 bucks a year is just a cost of doing business. Additionally, since your interest rate is fixed but inflation is not, in fifteen years that thousand bucks is only going to "fell" like three hundred. My consolidated interest rate is so low that it's like free money. I certainly am not intimidated by paying it.
Philosophically, you can either pay your own way and be beholden to nobody or whine and complain for the gubbmint' to pay your way at which point they own you and can dictate terms.
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This was Sen. Kennedy and his minions!! The thing is that they were aiming for undergrads so that they can get the govs. money back but we became and unforseen casualty in their diabolical plans. I am checking out the link for the bill to correct this nonsense. I know that AMA is working on this with a lot of might, as well. Because this went into the education bill in committee it was quite a suprise to a lot of people and happened withing days of the president's signature. So much for an open transparent congress.
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Well, I agree that the law isn't doing anything to alleviate the undersupply of primary care physicians, but no matter what specialty you choose, residency pay is pretty constant. A pediatrician making ~120k/yr will likely be able to afford 12k in loan payments, but for any resident with a salary in the neighborhood of 45k pre-tax, that's a significant chunk of income.
I haven't looked into consolidation and such yet (only M1), but my economist parents have hinted that rates are not going to be pretty any time soon.
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There is the practical consideration that while your rate is ~3%, I will be graduating with an average rate of closer to 7%, making minimum interest rate payments is more than double. I'm ALL about paying your own way, but I'm unfond of a system in which I am forced to work at slave wages for years due to a licensing law that prevents me from earning enough to make my payments and then changes the rules that would have let me put off those payments until after those years. I read the fine print when I signed, and I'm annoyed that the rules are changing. I would happily abide by the contract that I actually agreed to.
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I'm not sure that the AMA and might (as in strength) should ever be used in the same sentence
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The hours and hours we poured into doing research as undergrads, writing essays, and convincing mounds of really intelligent people that we like research counts for nothing, eh?
Medical education costs much more than the tuition you pay, and much of the difference is funded by sources that eventually trace back to the taxpayer. And to think, you can just go work for pharma after you're done. Give me back my money, darnit.
The NIH publishes reports on the success of their training programs in developing translational research, and right now the consensus seems to be that its too early to telll how successful the MSTP program has been.
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not sure if anyone knows how, at least I don't, else I would.
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Jesus this sucks. Somehow I knew they would find a way to screw us. I been thinking for a while, it's only a matter of time before medicine becomes socialized and those of us who have already taken all these loans are just left out to dry without any program for assistance. Of course, this is not that, but it just reminds me that there is no one concerned with our insane debt load. It used to be possible for you to work over the summer to pay your college tuition and today what can you do - maybe make $3,000 against a $20,000 college tuition or a $35,000 (or more) med school tuition?
Here's a couple of questions for those of you more financially well versed:
1) What does it seem like the interest rate for consolidation will be after graduating this year? I know this is irresponsible not to have any idea, but since in-school consolidation was terminated I stopped paying attention to the rates, as there is nothing I can do.
2) What would happen if you just don't pay? As I understand bankruptcy will not erase student loans, but there is no (am I using this correctly?) lien against anything else of yours? I guess your credit score will go to crap?
Here's a couple of questions for those of you more financially well versed:
1) What does it seem like the interest rate for consolidation will be after graduating this year? I know this is irresponsible not to have any idea, but since in-school consolidation was terminated I stopped paying attention to the rates, as there is nothing I can do.
2) What would happen if you just don't pay? As I understand bankruptcy will not erase student loans, but there is no (am I using this correctly?) lien against anything else of yours? I guess your credit score will go to crap?
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www.capwiz.com and others
I have 2 exams coming up, but others with more free time can look into it. We should do something and stop being such armchair warriors...
Also, here you can find your congressman/senate representative contact info:
http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm
http://www.house.gov/writerep/
If you care about this issue commit to calling your senator(s), congress representatives at least once a week, with your own message or one we can draft here, and return to this post often to report back. I commit to calling twice a week.
Now if you don't commit, stop complaining and take the future financial abuse you very well deserve...
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Here is a website from the TMA (texas med assoc) that you just input your name, address, and other info and it will send an automated letter or email to the congress-person that you designate. You can also edit the letter as you please.
http://capwiz.com/tma1/issues/alert/?alertid=10408956&type=CO&show_alert=1
It only works for Texas zip codes (y'all can use 77030 for Houston), but I figure the more submissions the merrier.
http://capwiz.com/tma1/issues/alert/?alertid=10408956&type=CO&show_alert=1
It only works for Texas zip codes (y'all can use 77030 for Houston), but I figure the more submissions the merrier.
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Unfortunately, studies show that email political campaigns really amount to... nothing.
Now if the Fax option is offered, that's different, but even then, when it comes to the congress, if you want something done, make the phone call, nothing beats the congressional office hearing the voice of their constituency.
Or send your letter
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This is unfortunate. Yet a further deterrent for future doctors considering careers in primary care. With excess interest piling up during residency, I'd bet that more people would shift away from PC and towards more "financially rewarding" specialties.
Are there programs for people who decide (while in medical school, not prior) to pursue PC, that compensate retroactively for service? If there are, I'm sure that these funds/slots are limited/finite. Does anybody know? I am asking because I am interested in being a primary care doc/FP/general IM/geriatrician. Thanks.
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FYI, if anyone is interested in a primary care field, quite a few states have loan repayment scholarships for serving in that state for a number of years after residency, usually ~4. Rules and regulations regarding these programs may vary. I know that both Maryland and Arizona both offer such programs, so check with your school to find out if your state has anything like this.
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deleted77919
There's always the nhsc . . . but they are pretty competitive and want you to commit upfront (and no, don't cover retroactive debt). You owe year for year and have to work in an underserved area in fm, im (general, so no cards fellowship till after your commitment), og/gyn, or psych.
You can also apply for funding through them after getting a job at one of their qualifying sites (post residency, etc). They pay back $25k/yr for 2 years with the possibility of addin gon another year at $35k. It can help but isn't guaranteed (i.e. you have committed to a residency and selected a relatively low paying job and only then can apply) and won't quickly pay off everything. Most positions seem to be offering salaries in the $100k range.
Edit: Here's a link to the Maryland program mentioned above. http://www.mhec.state.md.us/financialAid/ProgramDescriptions/prog_larppcs.asp
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Start your own lawn service, flip some burgers at McD's on break, or find a SO and put her to work... Heck, maybe even fill out some online surveys and watch that 1,173.51/month go down to 1,153.51/month... We are SCREWED!!!!!!
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I completely agree that the government is taking advantage of residents who are already working up to 80 hours a week, and still making about $43,000. I just want to mention, in case it makes anyone feel better, (and I could be wrong) but it's my understanding that this really only has an effect on Federal Subsidized Stafford Loans, so that's at max $8,500/yr, or $34,000 total. The rest is Alternative and Graduate Plus loans, which residents are already finding ways to pay for. So it doesn't affect the full $150,000. If that makes it better. However, I still think we should do something about it. Talk to you local state medical association chapters, and bring it to the AMA, and to your Congressmen and Representatives. It's a start 🙂 In the meantime, I won't be planning on purchasing a home until my residency is long over...
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The reason why subsidized loans are the only affected ones is that residents are essentially losing their deferment option but still have the ability to forbear their loans. During deferment, interest only accrues on unsubsidized loans, and during forbearance, interest accrues on all your loans. So, forbearance and deferment work out the same way for all the unsubsidized loans -- interest accrues.
Unsubsidized Stafford Loans make up the bulk of most of our loans portfolios. Generally, medical students can borrow ~$40k/year in staffords, $8500 of which are subsidized. Very few residents are actually paying these during residency, but yeah, the forbearance deferment distinction means nothing for them.
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Here's a sample letter
Here's a sample calling script (good luck with that, we just got answering machines).
Use this page on the AMA site to find your representatives.
More info on Info on Student Debt and How this affects you?
Here's a sample calling script (good luck with that, we just got answering machines).
Use this page on the AMA site to find your representatives.
More info on Info on Student Debt and How this affects you?
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It would be interesting to see how it would work if all of the residents across the country decided to not show up for the first 2 weeks of July?
The could not outsource the work, because the illegal immigrants make more money than interns. My neighbors housekeeper is getting $14/hr. At 80 hours, with overtime for all hours after 40, that is $70,000/yr. Hell, even the illegal immigrants hanging out if front of Home Depot want $10-12 bucks an hour to dig holes.
I finished up about 7 years ago with $45,000 of loans and only was making $31,000. Having to make payments on that would have hurt.....bad.
The hospitals would have to shut down without residents. I did the work of about 3 or 4 full-time employees when I was an intern. There is power in solidarity. If you are going to go broke, why not go out with a flourish.
The could not outsource the work, because the illegal immigrants make more money than interns. My neighbors housekeeper is getting $14/hr. At 80 hours, with overtime for all hours after 40, that is $70,000/yr. Hell, even the illegal immigrants hanging out if front of Home Depot want $10-12 bucks an hour to dig holes.
I finished up about 7 years ago with $45,000 of loans and only was making $31,000. Having to make payments on that would have hurt.....bad.
The hospitals would have to shut down without residents. I did the work of about 3 or 4 full-time employees when I was an intern. There is power in solidarity. If you are going to go broke, why not go out with a flourish.
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I hope we do lose the economic deferment, maybe that'll knock some fiscal sense into those ridiculous I love medicine so much that I'll work for food types you find in pre-allo.
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They won't realize it until they are in school. So I don't really buy that. They already are seeing the amount of money they have to sink it, you'd think THAT would scare them off alone.
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Confirmation of rumors I've heard and new developments from the AMA, the 20/220 rule is valid until Nov 1 2008. PLEASE CONTACT YOUR REPRESENTATIVES and the Department of Education to have your voices heard! EVERY VOICE COUNTS!
I just received this email:
I just received this email:
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