most competitive programs

josehernandez94 said:

I'm curious as to what are considered the most competitive general psych programs, particularly on the east coast. I'm asking not because I think competitive=best, but so that I have a realistic idea of where I might be able to match.

Thanks a lot for any replies.

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The single most competitive program is MGH/McLean - they don't even grant interviews to folks that the other programs will at least take a look at (oftentimes solely on the basis of the "prestige" of the applicants medical school).

The remainder of the upper echelon (where it's difficult to get a spot, but at least they'll be willing to look you over if your ERAS looks good) would be:

Columbia
NYU
Yale
Johns Hopkins
Cambridge
Harvard Longwood
Penn
Pitt

As always, bear in mind that this is only one man's opinion, and that "competitiveness" is not necessarily a measure of good training.

Howdy DS,

Do you mean that MGH tends 1) not to interview folks from less prestigious med schools, or 2) that other programs will interview some candidates solely on the basis of the prestige of their med school? (Either way, would suggest MGH more competitive...)

Cuz I'm banking on #2 (j/k... mostly)

billypilgrim37 said:

Howdy DS,

Do you mean that MGH tends 1) not to interview folks from less prestigious med schools, or 2) that other programs will interview some candidates solely on the basis of the prestige of their med school? (Either way, would suggest MGH more competitive...)

Cuz I'm banking on #2 (j/k... mostly)

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sorry, I meant option #1

I'd have to agree that MGH/McLean is considered the top program in Psychiatry. While this is a hotly contested topic, US News and World Report puts out its annual "Honor Roll" of America's Best Hospitals. Although any ranking system has its flaws in trying to place a numerical order on institutions with different focuses, this is still the most widely read and accepted of the ranking surveys. It's the one consumed by the lay public.

If you look in the methodology for these 2007 rankings, they surveyed psychiatrists and asked them their opinion as to which hospitals had the best reputation for managing challenging and rare cases. Here they are for psychiatry:

#1 Massachusetts General Hospital, Boston 36.1%
#2 Johns Hopkins Hospital, Baltimore 28.3%
#3 McLean Hospital, Belmont, Mass. 23.0%
#4 New York-Presbyterian Univ. Hosp. of Columbia and Cornell 21.0%
#5 UCLA's Neuropsychiatric Hospital, Los Angeles 20.9%
#6 Sheppard and Enoch Pratt Hospital, Baltimore 15.9%
#7 Menninger Clinic, Houston 14.0%
#8 Mayo Clinic, Rochester, Minn. 13.1%
#9 Yale-New Haven Hospital, New Haven, Conn. 11.5%
#10 Stanford Hospital and Clinics, Stanford, Calif. 10.9%

If you want to see the link, here it is:

http://health.usnews.com/usnews/health/best-hospitals/search.php?spec=reppsyc

PsychMD2100 said:

I'd have to agree that MGH/McLean is considered the top program in Psychiatry. While this is a hotly contested topic, US News and World Report puts out its annual "Honor Roll" of America's Best Hospitals. Although any ranking system has its flaws in trying to place a numerical order on institutions with different focuses, this is still the most widely read and accepted of the ranking surveys. It's the one consumed by the lay public.

If you look in the methodology for these 2007 rankings, they surveyed psychiatrists and asked them their opinion as to which hospitals had the best reputation for managing challenging and rare cases. Here they are for psychiatry:

#1 Massachusetts General Hospital, Boston 36.1%
#2 Johns Hopkins Hospital, Baltimore 28.3%
#3 McLean Hospital, Belmont, Mass. 23.0%
#4 New York-Presbyterian Univ. Hosp. of Columbia and Cornell 21.0%
#5 UCLA's Neuropsychiatric Hospital, Los Angeles 20.9%
#6 Sheppard and Enoch Pratt Hospital, Baltimore 15.9%
#7 Menninger Clinic, Houston 14.0%
#8 Mayo Clinic, Rochester, Minn. 13.1%
#9 Yale-New Haven Hospital, New Haven, Conn. 11.5%
#10 Stanford Hospital and Clinics, Stanford, Calif. 10.9%

If you want to see the link, here it is:

http://health.usnews.com/usnews/health/best-hospitals/search.php?spec=reppsyc

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The thing to bear in mind with USNWR rankings is that they are a measure of reputation for clinical care - not education or competitiveness of training program.

Good point. Certainly, the US News rankings are targeted towards consumers, ie the best place to go for psychiatric care.

I still think they're useful to a residency applicant. The places that provide the best clinical care will tend to be the more competitive places that give some of the best training.

Although most patients don't ask or care about where one trained, a program's reputation can be important for an academic career or a boutique practice.

w00t! Number six, baby! *insert further shameless self-promotion here* *and here*

Doc Samson said:

The thing to bear in mind with USNWR rankings is that they are a measure of reputation for clinical care - not education or competitiveness of training program.

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I also wonder how much of the reputation is based on ingrained pre-conceptions and subjective biases influenced by years of inbreeding within academic medicine. I mean, even if no-name program X gives outstanding patient care and has excellent teaching, will they ever make it on this list without at least pumping out articles? Probably not.

Go Top 10 Baby!!!

not education or competitiveness of training program.

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Problem with lists like this is from my own experience, they tend to rank based on things most residents don't find relevant. I mentioned this in a previous thread but one "ranking" list I've seen based it solely on how much money a program got for research. Research of course is important but its not the only thing. In fact several I believe would put it lower on their priorities when trying to get into a residency.

That being said, (and hats off to you Samson, didn't you graduate from MGH?), MGH deserves its top quality reputation based on the publications I read from the NEJM & their textbooks.

whopper said:

Problem with lists like this is from my own experience, they tend to rank based on things most residents don't find relevant. I mentioned this in a previous thread but one "ranking" list I've seen based it solely on how much money a program got for research. Research of course is important but its not the only thing. In fact several I believe would put it lower on their priorities when trying to get into a residency.

That being said, (and hats off to you Samson, didn't you graduate from MGH?), MGH deserves its top quality reputation based on the publications I read from the NEJM & their textbooks.

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I was an MGH Consult fellow, but am equally proud (perhaps even more so) of my Harvard Longwood residency training.

Don't get swept up by citations in the NEJM... I've heard it referred to as "the local rag" of MGH - just being at MGH vastly increases the likelihood that they'll publish your article. I believe the NEJM offices used to be actually on the MGH campus.

Your question may not be so simple, as if research is of interest to you I think you would have to select UPMC as the clear leader with Barnes Jewish, MGH, and Mayo coming in next. For Consult Liason training, MGH and Mayo are probably your leaders. For Psychotherapy, MGH, Columbia, and other Eastern Seaboard programs reign supreme. For Neuropsychiatry, you can't overlook UCLA (forgive the inclusion of a western coast program). So my point is that overall yes, MGH is easily the most competitive, but if you are looking for areas of focus during your general residency look closer.

Good luck and happy hunting!

ThymeLess said:

Your question may not be so simple, as if research is of interest to you I think you would have to select UPMC as the clear leader with Barnes Jewish, MGH, and Mayo coming in next. For Consult Liason training, MGH and Mayo are probably your leaders. For Psychotherapy, MGH, Columbia, and other Eastern Seaboard programs reign supreme. For Neuropsychiatry, you can't overlook UCLA (forgive the inclusion of a western coast program). So my point is that overall yes, MGH is easily the most competitive, but if you are looking for areas of focus during your general residency look closer.

Good luck and happy hunting!

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I know a number of people who believe Columbia is the best program and hardest to be accepted to. I think it definitely competes with MGH for competitiveness as I know at least 2 people who were turned away by Columbia but accepted to MGH. Plus there is the whole contingent of people who want to practice in New York which increases the competitiveness (and perhaps the strength of residents in those programs). Surprised Cornell has not been mentioned which many consider to be competitive (and possibly elitist). If you look at the list of accepted MGH applicants it is not all from Ivy league schools whereas a place like Cornell is a very high percentage of Ivy's both undergrad and med school.

In addition as far as competitiveness, Penn is becoming ubercompetitive as CBT continues to permeate society given that close interaction with Beck and his disciples occurs regularly. That coupled with its psychoanalytic training and big time research seems to make it the hot program recently as far as competitiveness goes. I also know of at least 2 people who chose it over heavy overtures from MGH.

Still though I think its reasonable to consider MGH, Columbia, Penn, Longwood, UCSF, UCLA, Cornell, NYU, and maybe Yale and Hopkins. Cambridge is a bit of a unique program that I don't know much about but I bet it probably is up there as well and for West Coast, perhaps Stanford is in there too. Thats how I see it...and I'm about 2-3 years away from the process.

worriedwell,

UCSF and UCLA are both on the West Coast.

With all due respect to Doc Samson, I would not place Longwood in the same sentence as the places you listed.

Although Aaron Beck, MD and his daughter, Judith Beck, PhD, have certainly contributed to CBT, I would hardly make the claim that their work places Penn in the top tier of Psych programs. Penn is a great institution but it doesn't have the same weight as the other places mentioned.

PsychMD2100 said:

With all due respect to Doc Samson, I would not place Longwood in the same sentence as the places you listed.

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I'm curious as to why?

Sorry for some reason I naturally sprinkle in those two programs, perhaps because it seems like east coasters still often look at those programs anyway... I admit I am naive about midwest programs too so apologies for leaving those off the list. Anytime somebody asks others to make lists like these it inevitably gets into pissing matches so lets not get carried away here either.

And perhaps I'm wrong about Penn, just word of mouth and personal experience on the trail. I don't know exactly what having "weight" means...but the list I wrote about was in terms of competitiveness to get into based on all the people that want to train there vs who they actually accept. In terms of research and academic weight Penn definitely exceeds that of most on the list and then Pitt obviously has to be added too if that is what you mean by weight.

In terms of competitiveness to get into, I am positive that both John Hopkins and Yale for example, struggle to get the overall matriculants that Penn gets. Perhaps this is not the case with the MGH, Columbia, Cornells, and NYUs of the world, but I was just giving examples of people choosing other great places other than MGH in my original reply. Also keep in mind that there is a contigent that is overall just scared off totally by NYC that looks at these other programs.

And in fact, I think Longwood attracts superb residents and is always highly coveted by applicants, easily on the same level of the list I mentioned. Finally, with all due respect, the USNEWS list does not really resemble the "where do med students want to go for residency" list. There are clearly some broad similarities but its not linear and there is an ebb and flow of "hot" programs that is not reflected in the USNews list because a bunch of old doctors rank those things.

I mentioned CBT only because people are now looking for "well rounded" training in therapy and in meds. Fewer and fewer people are becoming classic analysts and thus they are looking to become eclectically trained as thoroughly as possible. They want to learn all angles from behavior therapy to psychoanalytic to hardcore evidence based psychopharm and neuropsychiatry. This balance is where I have heard Penn has the edge on many of the NYC programs for example. But yeah, overall, and historically, the New York and Boston programs on the east coast have been the most competitive. We aren't talking historically though, we are talking now.

Its also important to note that each program is often looking for a particular type of resident...Hopkins is a good example of this as anyone who has interviewed there realizes. This makes that program top notch to many people and completely turns off many others. Again, though it is splitting hairs to try to rank all of these places too much. Maybe its just fair to say...imho...that its MGH and Columbia and then this next tier that we are discussing, and then everybody else.

Oh and as far as east coast is concerned, it blows my mind that DC hasn't been able to put together a major academic program that competes with these other programs. Maybe the solid Baltimore programs suck out all the talent from the area but you'd think DC would be a decent place to scrape together some diverse psychiatry experiences. I guess politics and not medicine is what drives that town. God knows the politicians need shrinks though.

Finally, if east coast is including the southeast, don't leave out MUSC, Duke, North Carolina, and Emory as I've read and heard of many people loving these places as well.

Best,
Worriedwell

PsychMD2100 said:

worriedwell,

UCSF and UCLA are both on the West Coast.

With all due respect to Doc Samson, I would not place Longwood in the same sentence as the places you listed.

Although Aaron Beck, MD and his daughter, Judith Beck, PhD, have certainly contributed to CBT, I would hardly make the claim that their work places Penn in the top tier of Psych programs. Penn is a great institution but it doesn't have the same weight as the other places mentioned.

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duplicate

worriedwell said:

I know a number of people who believe Columbia is the best program and hardest to be accepted to. I think it definitely competes with MGH for competitiveness as I know at least 2 people who were turned away by Columbia but accepted to MGH. Plus there is the whole contingent of people who want to practice in New York which increases the competitiveness (and perhaps the strength of residents in those programs). Surprised Cornell has not been mentioned which many consider to be competitive (and possibly elitist). If you look at the list of accepted MGH applicants it is not all from Ivy league schools whereas a place like Cornell is a very high percentage of Ivy's both undergrad and med school.

I also know of at least 2 people who chose it over heavy overtures from MGH.

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Agree with most of what you've written. When compared to the various Harvard programs, it would seem Columbia and Cornell attract 'better' residents based on their undergrad. and med. schools. I also know people who interviewed at MGH but were rejected at Cornell. Not sure about Columbia.

I also would like to add Stanford to your list. Sometimes people neglect the excellent West Coast programs (UCLA, Stanford,etc.). Nevermind the southern(emory, musc, UVA, duke) and/or midwestern (northwestern, penn, u. chicago) programs, these programs don't exist in the minds of some on this NE bias board.

HMSPSYCH said:

midwestern (northwestern, penn, u. chicago) programs, these programs don't exist in the minds of some on this NE bias board.

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With Midwest, I'd add UMich.

Also, I'm not so sure Penn is considered in a 'midwestern' program...

worriedwell said:

Its also important to note that each program is often looking for a particular type of resident...Hopkins is a good example of this as anyone who has interviewed there realizes. This makes that program top notch to many people and completely turns off many others.

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This was my impression of Hopkins as well. Interestingly, the PD told me that they have to go rather deep into their rank list before they fill all their slots. So, even though Hopkins is consider #1 on the Biased-Bastard-Child rankings of USNews , I'm not sure they meet the defintion of one of "the most competitive programs."

maranatha said:

This was my impression of Hopkins as well. Interestingly, the PD told me that they have to go rather deep into their rank list before they fill all their slots. So, even though Hopkins is consider #1 on the Biased-Bastard-Child rankings of USNews , I'm not sure they meet the defintion of one of "the most competitive programs."

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What do you mean? What about Hopkins appeals to some people but turns off others?

iheartpirates said:

What do you mean? What about Hopkins appeals to some people but turns off others?

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I think this is a general reference to the McHugh dogma that gets trained at Hopkins. I never interviewed there so I can't speak to my own impressions of the place, but the most indecisive attending I've EVER met was a graduate of the Hopkins residency, leaving a bitter taste in my mouth. I spent way too many weekend afternoons in the psych ER listening to "should I present this patient to Hospital A or Hospital B? Maybe I should discharge her with Mobile Crisis? Yes that's what I'll do... oh Mobile Crisis thinks she's too impaired for them to manage, hmm... Should I present her to Hospital A or Hospital B?"

Yeah, just one attending and she still might have been "the waffler" had she trained anywhere, but still, it was an eye opener to "even renowned residencies produce crappy psychiatrists."

MBK2003

iheartpirates said:

What do you mean? What about Hopkins appeals to some people but turns off others?

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In short, Hopkins is generally not big on psychodynamic therapy or psychotherapy in general. That is not to say they don't teach it, they do. They just have a general philosophy that psychotherapy can be reduced to helping the patient with good common sense advice. At least that is what the PD told me. Overall, the program is very strong in the medical aspects of psychiatry. They also have their interns rotate through the cardiac intensive care unit and they do a lot of medicine. So between the therapy and the medicine, that turns a lot of applicants off.