Searching for a Christian PsyD

IT514 · Jul 9, 2012

psyman said:
As I stated, I'd like to know what is different about these programs as compared to traditional programs.

I will say that I would fully expect a traditional program to challenge a student's worldview more than a faith-based program.

Its fairly simple and straightforward. Folks who go to these programs are Christians, are taught by clinicians who are Christians, and generally agree with one another about core beliefs and assumptions about life in the ontological sense of the word. Though if you think that they sit around and agree with each other all day, you're way off and a bit guilty pidgeonholing a very diverse group of people. Metholodologically, the programs are set up the same way as any other program and use science, research, and practice similarly to any other program. Not too dissimilar from any Catholic institution.

I attended a "traditional program", so I cant speak firsthand, but I seriously looked into a few christian schools. I cant say that anyone challenged anything about my worldview and I did most of that work myself. Its actually what I think I missed the most in going to a traditional program.

Iwillheal · Jul 9, 2012

I did not mean to suggest it was a bad thing...or a good thing. I was sensing from the OP's post that s/he was presenting a comparison between two different value systems both set in stone. And while religious worldview and values can be conceptualized as "set in stone" for the sake of argument (though they do change over time), psychology and psychotherapy should not be conceptualized as such. So "effective practice of psychology" changes all the time and is in fact different between different schools despite most of them adhering to APA ethical code, at least from a legal standpoint. And as much as some psychologists like to think of psychology as a science like physics, it's not. Not even close. Like you say, it is affected by social change. This is not necessarily a bad thing...or good thing...but the influence of social, cultural, and political forces and groups in how we define illness/health and therapy means that our field is different from a purely scientific field like physics.

As far as homosexuality never going back to be seen as pathological, I would like to disagree with that. This is not a blanket statement. But as we learn more and more about brain and mental health, it is possible that some types of homosexuality will be seen as pathological. In particular if some types of homosexuality can be divorced from "identity." Once it's made into a behavior, it's easily pathologized. It will never been seen as a sin because that's the religious view, not psychological view. But pathological, it's possible. Let me clarify that I'm not singling out homosexuality. Pretty much any kind of behavior you can think of can be seen as pathological, as dysfunctional, as harmful. Think of a hetero person "obsessed" with anal sex. Anything that can cause distress and/or dysfunction in some situation can be pathologized. That's why I love comparing DSMs. I recommend everybody do this when they feel depressed. They'll get a real chuckle out of it.

I wish psychology WAS moving in a reliable direction like you say. But I doubt it. Psychology is moving in an exploratory way, like when you're learning a new subject. It explores something, jumps around, goes back to it, a paradigm shift....It's a young science, less than 150 years old, we're just getting started.

KillerDiller · Jul 9, 2012

Iwillheal said:
As far as homosexuality never going back to be seen as pathological, I would like to disagree with that. This is not a blanket statement. But as we learn more and more about brain and mental health, it is possible that some types of homosexuality will be seen as pathological. In particular if some types of homosexuality can be divorced from "identity." Once it's made into a behavior, it's easily pathologized. It will never been seen as a sin because that's the religious view, not psychological view. But pathological, it's possible. Let me clarify that I'm not singling out homosexuality. Pretty much any kind of behavior you can think of can be seen as pathological, as dysfunctional, as harmful. Think of a hetero person "obsessed" with anal sex. Anything that can cause distress and/or dysfunction in some situation can be pathologized. That's why I love comparing DSMs. I recommend everybody do this when they feel depressed. They'll get a real chuckle out of it.

As you say, any behavior can be taken to unhealthy extremes. However, in this case, the psychologist is asked to treat an obsession that happens to involve homosexual behavior, not homosexuality itself. Psychologists treat clients with OCD who have intrusive thoughts about homosexual acts, but in doing so they are not pathologizing homosexuality. When we treat someone for excessive hand-washing, we do not label hand washing itself as a social problem. Homosexuality (or homosexual behavior itself, even when divorced from identity) will not go back into the DSM because, despite psychology looking chaotic at times, there is a progression to it. In this case, the progression mirrors changes in society at large.

Iwillheal · Jul 9, 2012

KillerDiller, I understand what you're saying. I don't know about you but I really don't have a good solution for people who are trying to practice psychotherapy that is in accord with a certain religious worldview. It's not just about homosexuality but what if you're dealing with someone who watches hardcore pornography? Etc.

sabaijae · Jul 9, 2012

Neuropsych2be said:
Westerners are like fish swimming in water. We are so immersed in our cultural context that we don't see the context. This is one reason why I believe that clinical psychologists desperately need to get some exposure to other academic disciplines such as cultural anthropology (which I have a background in) so that they learn to look beyond their limited methodologies and worldviews.

That makes two of us. As an anthro major who has lived abroad for several years - and is about to begin a school psych program - I agree that anthropology and/or a significant period abroad would benefit many psychs (although wouldnt use the words "limited" or "Westerners", as the same can be said for most persons around the world

).

sabaijae · Jul 9, 2012

kid16 said:
I'm all for the expansion of my own personal understanding of the worldviews of others - especially my patients so that I can better treat and understand them ... I have no desire to base my treatment on my personal explicit worldview

You may not have a desire to, but I think Neuropsych was pointing at how persons can implicitly interpret, or "feel"/experience, through one's "worldview"/culture/experience. (This might be something not fully appreciated until you've immersed yourself in a completely different culture for awhile ... ) With that said, I'm not by any means dismissing the entire field of psychology/therapy.

snowcherries · Jul 9, 2012

Iwillheal said:
I did not mean to suggest it was a bad thing...or a good thing. I was sensing from the OP's post that s/he was presenting a comparison between two different value systems both set in stone. And while religious worldview and values can be conceptualized as "set in stone" for the sake of argument (though they do change over time), psychology and psychotherapy should not be conceptualized as such. So "effective practice of psychology" changes all the time and is in fact different between different schools despite most of them adhering to APA ethical code, at least from a legal standpoint. And as much as some psychologists like to think of psychology as a science like physics, it's not. Not even close. Like you say, it is affected by social change. This is not necessarily a bad thing...or good thing...but the influence of social, cultural, and political forces and groups in how we define illness/health and therapy means that our field is different from a purely scientific field like physics.

As far as homosexuality never going back to be seen as pathological, I would like to disagree with that. This is not a blanket statement. But as we learn more and more about brain and mental health, it is possible that some types of homosexuality will be seen as pathological. In particular if some types of homosexuality can be divorced from "identity." Once it's made into a behavior, it's easily pathologized. It will never been seen as a sin because that's the religious view, not psychological view. But pathological, it's possible. Let me clarify that I'm not singling out homosexuality. Pretty much any kind of behavior you can think of can be seen as pathological, as dysfunctional, as harmful. Think of a hetero person "obsessed" with anal sex. Anything that can cause distress and/or dysfunction in some situation can be pathologized. That's why I love comparing DSMs. I recommend everybody do this when they feel depressed. They'll get a real chuckle out of it.

I wish psychology WAS moving in a reliable direction like you say. But I doubt it. Psychology is moving in an exploratory way, like when you're learning a new subject. It explores something, jumps around, goes back to it, a paradigm shift....It's a young science, less than 150 years old, we're just getting started.

To respond directly, I very much agree with you that what the practice of psychology deems as pathological or not is very much culture- and context-dependent. I also believe that based on the research and theory that I currently have access to, the most effective practice of psychology is practice that respects and supports loving and consensual relationships between people of any gender identification. I can agree that psychology is a fluid discipline and still have informed opinions on the best way to do things. We have research that tells us what the current best practices in the field are, and supporting healthy LGBTQ relationships is, to me, clearly a best practice.

wigflip · Jul 9, 2012

KillerDiller · Jul 9, 2012

wigflip said:
While what you say above is probably true, not all members of LGBT communities share that optimism, or trust in the APA.

I'm sure they don't, nor would I expect them to. Psychologists will have to advocate for the profession among the LGBT population for some time, I'd wager.

My point, though, is from the perspective of training psychologists. I don't see any reason to leave it open and teach that maybe, in the future, psychology will backslide on this issue and say that homosexuality is pathological. (Note that I know this is not what Iwillheal was suggesting.) The preponderance of evidence is enough to say that it won't. Yet this is an area where the intersection of psychology and Christianity during training is concerning. Is the training relying on science or Christianity here? That is my main question of these programs. If there is a conflict between epistemologies, which one wins out?

wigflip · Jul 9, 2012

KillerDiller said:
I'm sure they don't, nor would I expect them to. Psychologists will have to advocate for the profession among the LGBT population for some time, I'd wager.

My point, though, is from the perspective of training psychologists. I don't see any reason to leave it open and teach that maybe, in the future, psychology will backslide on this issue and say that homosexuality is pathological. (Note that I know this is not what Iwillheal was suggesting.) The preponderance of evidence is enough to say that it won't. Yet this is an area where the intersection of psychology and Christianity during training is concerning. Is the training relying on science or Christianity here? That is my main question of these programs. If there is a conflict between epistemologies, which one wins out?

Yeah, I agree. (Deleted my previous post because I think I made a factual error).

On a (somewhat) related note: of possible interested to folks interested in DSM V and the politics of GID diagnoses (note that some have mis/used GID childhood diagnosis as rationale for intervening to attempt to "divert" future homosexuality):
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...a7V3qv&sig=AHIEtbRrJ1y1byi9IwLxLVY9huuVpTYITw

paramour · Jul 10, 2012

What is going on in here?

Now we're pathologizing anal sex? C'mon, folks, I know plenty of hetero- individuals who "obsess" over the act and don't find it at all distressing. I'd be careful what actions we choose to use as examples... Where'd I get lost?

Qwerk · Jul 10, 2012

Iwillheal said:
KillerDiller, I understand what you're saying. I don't know about you but I really don't have a good solution for people who are trying to practice psychotherapy that is in accord with a certain religious worldview. It's not just about homosexuality but what if you're dealing with someone who watches hardcore pornography? Etc.

Are you saying that it's impossible to be a religiously-oriented clinician without pathologizing behavior that mainstream clinicians would see as normal (e.g. being gay, watching porn)? I know religious therapists, and non-religious therapists who practice with religious clients, who might disagree with you there.

paramour said:
What is going on in here?

Now we're pathologizing anal sex? C'mon, folks, I know plenty of hetero- individuals who "obsess" over the act and don't find it at all distressing. I'd be careful what actions we choose to use as examples... Where'd I get lost?

This.

Iwillheal · Jul 10, 2012

One, you guys are overthinking it. I mentioned anal sex because it's the first thing that popped into my head perhaps because of a case study I had read earlier that day or mentioning homosexuality earlier or whatever. The key word here was "obsessed." Two, as for Qwerk's point, I never said it's "impossible." I was simply pointing out that I don't have a "good solution." Perhaps a religiously-oriented clinician can enlighten me as to how they make decisions when there are different and at times conflicting values that can guide their action in a particular situation.

psychb4flight · Jul 12, 2012

aequitasveritas said:
If I wanted to use Jesus to help people I would be a pastoral counselor.
If I wanted to be a Psychologist...I would be a Psychologist.

Wow, how long have you been stuck in the lab? In psychotherapy, clients use spirituality as a coping resource quite frequently.
Perhaps you might want to:
A) Join or review Div. 36 of the APA
B) look at some of the recent research on spirituality, or consult any number of books, videos or peer-reviewed articles on the subject (I've provided a very cursory sample below)
C) stop speaking outside of your area of expertise

A few quick references from a simple Google search:
http://www.division36.org/
http://www.division36.org/Conference/index.html - A conference this year on the topic
http://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/rel/index.aspx - A nice little journal published by the APA
Addressing Issues of Spirituality and Religion in Psychotherapy http://www.apa.org/pubs/videos/4310743.aspx - A video on the topic
Integrating Spirituality Into Treatment: Resources for Practitioners - http://www.apa.org/pubs/books/431726A.aspx - Another book on the topic

JeyRo · Jul 12, 2012

psychb4flight said:
Wow, how long have you been stuck in the lab? In psychotherapy, clients use spirituality as a coping resource quite frequently.
Perhaps you might want to:
A) Join or review Div. 36 of the APA
B) look at some of the recent research on spirituality, or consult any number of books, videos or peer-reviewed articles on the subject (I've provided a very cursory sample below)
C) stop speaking outside of your area of expertise

A few quick references from a simple Google search:
http://www.division36.org/
http://www.division36.org/Conference/index.html - A conference this year on the topic
http://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/rel/index.aspx - A nice little journal published by the APA
Addressing Issues of Spirituality and Religion in Psychotherapy http://www.apa.org/pubs/videos/4310743.aspx - A video on the topic
Integrating Spirituality Into Treatment: Resources for Practitioners - http://www.apa.org/pubs/books/431726A.aspx - Another book on the topic

Isn't acknowledgement and incorporation of a clients spiritual practices into therapy a little different than saying "I want a Christian PsyD?"

psychb4flight · Jul 12, 2012

aequitasveritas said:
I can jive to the worldview. But "worldviews" of C. (Christianity) needs to be deconstructed.

I'm not referencing any programs...just concepts.

What does a "C." Psychologist do with a young person developing who is struggling with sexuality...either trying to awkwardly get laid as teens will do...or is struggling with being being gay or is confused about being gay or straight.
Beliefs come out in the session in subtle ways. Does the "worldview" of C. involve a human's right to a full sexual development and sexual life...or does it adhere to what's actually written in the Bible?

Things like this impact how one views the human condition.

A few reflections. We all have to adhere to the same set of ethical codes and standards of practice, and as you probably already know, teens struggling with their sexuality are experiencing challenges in their sexual development (DSM-IV TR). An ethical psychologist (whether Christian, Buddhist, etc.) has the same code of ethics and standards of practice as a non-religious practitioner. Practica, internship, post-doc, and consultation of our work in therapy allows us to explore our own counter-transference while holding us to the same standards of practice. If a practitioner's own interpretation of a religious text interferes with his or her ability to deliver competent services, that's their own issue to be resolved in consultation and supervision, and a referral may be warranted for better client/therapist fit.

psychb4flight · Jul 12, 2012

JeyRo said:
Isn't acknowledgement and incorporation of a clients spiritual practices into therapy a little different than saying "I want a Christian PsyD?"

Semantics are important, and the OP's academic level is too. I'll assume the OP is Christian and wants to concentrate or undertake research in the area; in that case, spirituality seems fitting. The term Christian Psychologist is not an oxymoron as long as a person can fulfill their obligations to both, and plenty of us do.

psychb4flight · Jul 12, 2012

Iwillheal said:
One, you guys are overthinking it. I mentioned anal sex because it's the first thing that popped into my head perhaps because of a case study I had read earlier that day or mentioning homosexuality earlier or whatever. The key word here was "obsessed." Two, as for Qwerk's point, I never said it's "impossible." I was simply pointing out that I don't have a "good solution." Perhaps a religiously-oriented clinician can enlighten me as to how they make decisions when there are different and at times conflicting values that can guide their action in a particular situation.

Yes, you really roweled them up with your anal sex example.

Perhaps you should try meeting or interviewing some professors or practitioners who are Christian and in practice. I've worked for 3 state universities and have found psychologists at each who were delighted to entertain the topic.

psychb4flight · Jul 12, 2012

Jegg said:

Chuck Norris called. He wants his likeness to stop being confused with the One he worships. Norris actually wrote a number of Christian-themed books, but you didn't look that up, now did you?

psychb4flight · Jul 12, 2012

Chase3557 said:
I am entering the final year of my undergrad majoring in both Religion and Psychology. I have a 3.94 GPA right now, but I don't have any experience. I am scheduled to take the GRE at the end of the summer. I would like to go to one of the APA certified Christian PsyD programs next fall, but I'm just trying to figure out how many I should apply to and what my chances are to get accepted. I am married and have enough saved up now to pay for the first semester up front. Based on their program, location, and cost of living (taking student housing into account) I have listed the schools in order from my favorite to least favorite. What do you guys think? Any feedback is helpful.

1. George Fox
2. Fuller
3. Regent
4. Wheaton
5. Rosemead
6. Azusa Pacific

Congrats on your fine GPA and upcoming application process. I can't vouch for those programs, but I have a colleague who attended #5 6 years ago and loved it. I have worked and trained in both secular and religious settings, and here are a few considerations:

1) Is it necessary for you to attend a Christian PsyD. program? I ask this question, because some programs are religiously affiliated and even have their religious affiliation in the school's name but do little research, offer few to no classes or offer few practica/training experiences in the area.
2) How many classes does the psychology program offer with a concentration in spirituality?
3) What are the number of recent publications and dissertations that focus on spirituality (that students have completed)? Look at the research and see if it interests you.
4) What faculty members are actively/currently involved in research and practice incorporating a Christian spiritual perspective? Role models and mentors are important.
5) Perhaps the most important question. How much is the program going to cost you and can you find employment after graduation? You can always pursue additional workshops, supervision and research after obtaining your PsyD., but if the school's graduates aren't finding jobs, your efforts in applying to and finding such a program may not be in your best interests. It's not uncommon for PsyD. programs to run 100,000 or above, and employment after graduation is important!

KillerDiller · Jul 12, 2012

psychb4flight said:
Perhaps you should try meeting or interviewing some professors or practitioners who are Christian and in practice. I've worked for 3 state universities and have found psychologists at each who were delighted to entertain the topic.

I don't think anyone on here is doubting that someone can be a Christian and a psychologist. I'm certainly not doubting that. What I am doubting is that a program that places Christian spirituality ahead of science is an appropriate place to receive training as a psychologist. I know Catholic schools do not train students in this way, but nobody on this thread has yet verified that programs representing other denominations do not.

psychb4flight · Jul 12, 2012

KillerDiller said:
I don't think anyone on here is doubting that someone can be a Christian and a psychologist. I'm certainly not doubting that. What I am doubting is that a program that places Christian spirituality ahead of science is an appropriate place to receive training as a psychologist. I know Catholic schools do not train students in this way, but nobody on this thread has yet verified that programs representing other denominations do not.

Agreed. I'd also like to hear a few perspectives from others who have trained in programs that are religiously affiliated or offer a concentration in the area. It's my hope that spirituality is used as a tool to complement a scientific perspective not replace it. If a school taught a spiritual perspective in lieu of the psychological one, it would be a great disservice (IMO) in preparation for the EPPP, licensing and practice as a psychotherapist.

bmedclinic · Jul 13, 2012

Ultimately, I decided to not go that route, but I cant fault the OP for wanting that.
I decided, as someone harshly responded, that it was okay for me to have my faith and be a Psychologist that's a christian, not a Christian Psychologist.

Either way, from what I've heard, Baylor has a PsyD and they're "Christian".

Iwillheal · Jul 13, 2012

bmedclinic said:
Ultimately, I decided to not go that route, but I cant fault the OP for wanting that.
I decided, as someone harshly responded, that it was okay for me to have my faith and be a Psychologist that's a christian, not a Christian Psychologist.

You sound a little hurt by that poster's comment. I'm sure there are people who are somehow making it work, which is why I was hoping a Christian therapist could clarify how it's does it's done in practice. Compromises must be involved though. Reality is that in practice in a professionalized society, there is not a lot of rooms for Christian values when they are in conflict with values inherent to the practice of the profession or the law. Once you make peace with the fact that religion does not has as much legal power in the society as it did decades and centuries ago, you may be able to make this work.

LETSGONYR · Jul 13, 2012

I don't know if anyone else has heard of this school, but I know that there is a school in the DC area that specifically teaches psychology from a catholic perspective. https://ipsciences.edu/. They have a Psy.D. program, though it is not accredited by the APA (I believe they applied for accreditation, but I didn't care enough to see if it was granted or not heh).

On one of my externships, a fellow extern came from that program. I know that myself (and my supervisors) had doubts about his clinical skills... not sure if that was specifically about him or the program though.

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