Interesting OEC stuff from their website

Thanx for the info. Now that's a serious scam if I've ever heard of one. I really hope somehow an end can be put to this, or at the very least no proliferation. A friend of mine interviewed there and he felt like it seemed like a factory, corporate atmosphere. Imagine if this spreads to other specialties.

Jediwendell said:

Here are the salary figures from their website.

Good business sense.

In the first seven years you will earn 150K or 40% of NET profits, whichever is greater. SO, in order to make more than 150, you will have to have net proffits for the business of greater than 375K. If you assume that the office will have 50% overhead, then you will have to make greater than 750K gross. That means that they will be making 225 thousand dollars off of each resident when they are done, if they max out their production.


If you assume that you will gross 1,000,000, and that the overhead is a more likely 40% for a big company like OEC, then you will have 600K net. With that net you will still only get 240,000. The company will then make 360K on your hard work. If you are in years 13+ you will still make only 360K for their 240K. Over a ten year period, that 225k that you are giving them each year is a boatload of money. You would be better off as a GP in most instances.

With this set up you are taking home 16-20 % of collections, depending on the overhead. WOW!


An example for private practice: If you see 60 ortho patients per year at 5500 per case, that is 330,000. If you can keep your overhead to 40-50% (which you should be able to do, starting five patients per month), then you will have 165K.

Another example for those that need to do ortho so bad: You are a GP and do three crowns per day, average, charging 700 a pop. That is 10500 a week if you work five days. Assume 65% overhead and you have 3675 a week. If you work 50 weeks per year you are making 190K.

The last example doesn't include fillings, cleanings, etc, so it is probably even low for a high power practice. Most GPs that we had interview last year for ortho said they would be taking a big money hit to go into ortho, because most of them are in high level cosmetic practices.

Summary: OEC is out to get your money, plain and simple. Be careful what you sign up for.

Caveat: If you know what you are signing up for and understand what they are going to be doing to you, have fun!

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Jediwendell said:

An example for private practice: If you see 60 ortho patients per year at 5500 per case, that is 330,000. If you can keep your overhead to 40-50% (which you should be able to do, starting five patients per month), then you will have 165K.

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Do you think most orthodontists net 165K per year? Just curious.

cuneatus2 said:

Do you think most orthodontists net 165K per year? Just curious.

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If you look at the averages put out by the ADA, the average orthodontists makes more than $100k above the $165k mark.

How competitive is it to get into OEC?

how competitive is it to get into prostitution?

Johnson22 said:

How competitive is it to get into OEC?

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I heard rumor of an email going around today that there were still OEC scholarship positions available for 2006... very heartening to hear that!

jpollei said:

I heard rumor of an email going around today that there were still OEC scholarship positions available for 2006... very heartening to hear that!

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Very good news indeed!

cuneatus2 said:

Very good news indeed!

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I feel like people in this thread are just afraid that OEC practitioners will be dipping in the pockets of traditionally trained orthodontists in the future (market saturation). The schools have thier initial accredidation, let them live. There are bigger things to worry about in this world besides money. OEC provides a viable option for many doctors interested and patients that need it. I know a child in Denver that was only able to receive treatment becasue of OEC. how many of you would be willing to knock down that 5500 price tag for the financially challenged on a REGULAR basis? One or two cases a year probono is far from contributing to society.

inyomouf said:

I feel like people in this thread are just afraid that OEC practitioners will be dipping in the pockets of traditionally trained orthodontists in the future (market saturation). The schools have thier initial accredidation, let them live. There are bigger things to worry about in this world besides money. OEC provides a viable option for many doctors interested and patients that need it. I know a child in Denver that was only able to receive treatment becasue of OEC. how many of you would be willing to knock down that 5500 price tag for the financially challenged on a REGULAR basis? One or two cases a year probono is far from contributing to society.

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The gripe against OEC has nothing to do with money. It has to do with:

-Opposing one man who is using his wealth to try and change the concept of "private practice" into a personal investment system under the false pretenses of "access to care for everyone." He's simply buying in bulk so to speak; increase the number of cases you produce and you still break even at a decreased cost.
-The potiental for tiered orthodontic care, or at the very least a perception of tiering in the eyes of the publinc and referring gp's. If OEC was good for the profession, you can believe the AAO would support it as they have the establishment/expansion of other traditional orthodontic programs who try and accommodate the increasing number of people in "need" of orthodontic care. (Ironic that 95% of ortho is a want, not a need, further substantiating that there isn't truly an access to care "need").
-Priorities. If cost were the limiting factor, patients could use any number of payment-plan alternatives that exist (Care credit, etc.) I'd be interested to see if any of those who claim they can't affort traditional ortho fees, but could afford OEC fees have a big screen tv, or huge dvd collection, or new car, etc... Why don't you call the Best Buy guy and tell him that his home theater systems are too pricey, and that he should know a few G's off for me, a financially challenged student. It's the exact same thought process.

I'm not trying to be a jerk; just maintaining that braces are not not necessary--with few exceptions--for optimal oral health. They are an extra...if you want 'em, then make it a priority over another want.

inyomouf said:

I feel like people in this thread are just afraid that OEC practitioners will be dipping in the pockets of traditionally trained orthodontists in the future (market saturation). The schools have thier initial accredidation, let them live. There are bigger things to worry about in this world besides money. OEC provides a viable option for many doctors interested and patients that need it. I know a child in Denver that was only able to receive treatment becasue of OEC. how many of you would be willing to knock down that 5500 price tag for the financially challenged on a REGULAR basis? One or two cases a year probono is far from contributing to society.

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The gripe against OEC has nothing to do with money. It has to do with:

-Opposing one man who is using his wealth to try and change the concept of "private practice" into a personal investment system under the false pretenses of "access to care for everyone." He's simply buying in bulk so to speak; increase the number of cases you produce and you still break even at a decreased cost.
-The potiental for tiered orthodontic care, or at the very least a perception of tiering in the eyes of the publinc and referring gp's. If OEC was good for the profession, you can believe the AAO would support it as they have the establishment/expansion of other traditional orthodontic programs who try and accommodate the increasing number of people in "need" of orthodontic care. (Ironic that 95% of ortho is a want, not a need, further substantiating that there isn't truly an access to care "need").
-Priorities. If cost were the limiting factor, patients could use any number of payment-plan alternatives that exist (Care credit, etc.) I'd be interested to see if any of those who claim they can't affort traditional ortho fees, but could afford OEC fees have a big screen tv, or huge dvd collection, or new car, etc... Why don't you call the Best Buy guy and tell him that his home theater systems are too pricey, and that he should know a few G's off for me, a financially challenged student. It's the exact same thought process.

I'm not trying to be a jerk; just maintaining that braces are not not necessary--with few exceptions--for optimal oral health. They are an extra...if you want 'em, then make it a priority over another want.

the gripe seems to be with the contractual obligations involved and corporate involvement in postgraduate dental education. not just ortho residents and practicing orthodontists are concerned. medical societies, educational organizations and others have stated their surprise and concern that OEC had such a relatively easy time in obtaining initial accreditation. i don't agree with jpollei's access to care argument. if a pt feels they have a need they deserve at least a consultation and treatment as long as it is not harming them. there are access to care issues in all specialties of dentistry -in my opinion OEC's answer to this problem is not the solution, but another problem in and of itself.

Jpollei, you argument is so ignorant to me its ridiculous. I challenge you to go to an inner city school in my hometown (Pitt) and see how many kids with moderate to severe malocclusions have ortho (not many). Then, walk down the street in Chapel Hill to the local high school and look for the same thing. the number of kids with these problems will be relatively nonexistent. The reason is that ppl like you wont go to central Pitt and provide these kids with the ortho that middle class kids can often afford. Then you make the generalization that all these ppl have big screens and new cars...how ignorant is that? The candidates for OEC know what the situation is concerning their contracts. If they dont want that option, they dont have to take it. I am happy for you that you matched into ortho but concerned about practitioners with your type of attitude.

molarama said:

the gripe seems to be with the contractual obligations involved and corporate involvement in postgraduate dental education. not just ortho residents and practicing orthodontists are concerned. medical societies, educational organizations and others have stated their surprise and concern that OEC had such a relatively easy time in obtaining initial accreditation. i don't agree with jpollei's access to care argument. if a pt feels they have a need they deserve at least a consultation and treatment as long as it is not harming them. there are access to care issues in all specialties of dentistry -in my opinion OEC's answer to this problem is not the solution, but another problem in and of itself.

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Agree with everything you said 100%. The indentured servitude is a huge problem...don't know how I overlooked that one. And apparently I was unclear about the portended access to care issue--which really exists only because OEC is trying to make it one. People are welcomed to pursue an ortho consult if they wish, but being financially limited or any other precluding circumstance shouldn't be a criteria for entitlement to treatment at a reduced fee (the niche OEC is trying to fill) when that treatment is generally considered to be elective.

By the way, our dean is headed to Vegas to do their site accreditation soon...I'll be interested to hear what his opinion of their OEC program is.

inyomouf said:

Jpollei, you argument is so ignorant to me its ridiculous. I challenge you to go to an inner city school in my hometown (Pitt) and see how many kids with moderate to severe malocclusions have ortho (not many). Then, walk down the street in Chapel Hill to the local high school and look for the same thing. the number of kids with these problems will be relatively nonexistent. The reason is that ppl like you wont go to central Pitt and provide these kids with the ortho that middle class kids can often afford. Then you make the generalization that all these ppl have big screens and new cars...how ignorant is that? The candidates for OEC know what the situation is concerning their contracts. If they dont want that option, they dont have to take it. I am happy for you that you matched into ortho but concerned about practitioners with your type of attitude.

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I really didn't want to post too much anymore but just can't help myself, especially with people who want to continue defending OEC.

The reason you don't see many inner city kids with ortho is because all these kids need general dental work!!! not ortho. No right minded orthodontist would put braces on kids with rampant caries like most of these kid have. What the others are trying to say to you is ortho is the last thing any of these kids need as far as dental work is concerned. They need proper oral health education -- both the kids and the parents, they need sealants, they need fillings, they need endo to save their bombed out teeth, they need extraction of the tooth thats causing the big swelling in their jaw, they need a bridge to replace that central they lost because their mom's new boyfriend punched them in the mouth, on and on, etc., etc. Who the fricken is thinking about orthodontics --- they need general dentistry. Ortho is the last thing they need. That is why the access of care argument that OEC proclaims is a bunch of crap. I said this before, if they were really worried about access of care they would open up a private Pedo program, that would be more sincere. Read all the crap articles about GKAS program and you can hear all the horrible statistics about how inner city kids aren't getting access to general dental care and your going to tell me they need ortho? really a bunch of crap.

"People like you won't go to cental Pitt...." -- niether will pedodontists, general dentists, oral surgeons, etc, etc. --- so whats your point??

yes your right, it may be about money, its about the CEO of OEC making money thats what its about.

With your kind of thinking, I assume you wouldn't mind if some joe blow open up a private dental school all over the country with the same contractual agreement as OEC, would you. Then saturate the crap out of the profession even more --- to the point that dentists are like carpenters and plumbers or any other tradesman. How nice that would be.

If you want to join OEC because you can't get into a traditional ortho program then go ahead that is your perrogative (and I commend you on your decision or anybody else who knowingly joins them) but don't try to defend an insidious cancer mucking up the dental profession.

I'm sure the reason there are open OEC spots still is because applicants look at the salary and the 7-year slavery and realize what an absurd deal it is. There are relatively new general dentists that make more than $150k a year. It isn't impossible, that's for sure.

dort-ort said:

The reason you don't see many inner city kids with ortho is because all these kids need general dental work!!! not ortho. No right minded orthodontist would put braces on kids with rampant caries like most of these kid have. What the others are trying to say to you is ortho is the last thing any of these kids need as far as dental work is concerned. They need proper oral health education -- both the kids and the parents, they need sealants, they need fillings, they need endo to save their bombed out teeth, they need extraction of the tooth thats causing the big swelling in their jaw, they need a bridge to replace that central they lost because their mom's new boyfriend punched them in the mouth, on and on, etc., etc. Who the fricken is thinking about orthodontics --- they need general dentistry. Ortho is the last thing they need. That is why the access of care argument that OEC proclaims is a bunch of crap. I said this before, if they were really worried about access of care they would open up a private Pedo program, that would be more sincere. Read all the crap articles about GKAS program and you can hear all the horrible statistics about how inner city kids aren't getting access to general dental care and your going to tell me they need ortho? really a bunch of crap.

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Well said. No one ever died because they had crooked teeth. Comprehensive treatment planning means eliminating pain and infection first, neither of which is solved with braces.

griffin04 said:

Well said. No one ever died because they had crooked teeth. Comprehensive treatment planning means eliminating pain and infection first, neither of which is solved with braces.

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If you had my horrible smile, you would have died.

Jediwendell said:

Here are the salary figures from their website.

Good business sense.

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I'm with you. Keep on preachin' it brother.

Wow.. I had no idea! good thread.

Jediwendell said:

You know, I just tried to post something informative about OEC instead of rhetoric, just so people could see how much the company is taking advantage of people. Many people don't understand the concept of gross versus net profits. If you do, great for you. This is a typical response from somebody that has specialist envy and thinks all specialists are idiots. So why don't you go work for OEC. Then you can make 16% of collections. It isn't about access to care at all. Look at the numbers above. If Lazzara was a good guy he would donate 90% of that 200K he will make off of each of his new "employees". That would be about serving the underpriviledged. But instead he will go buy a new yacht. Plenty of underpriviledged kids here in San Antonio get braces. We don't need OEC down here, that is for sure. But if you feel that they are saving the world, you can go get taken advantage of. OEC is what they refer to as "the slippery slope", my friend. Once it happens with one specialty, it will spread to others, and then to general dentistry. How will having an OEC sponsored dental school help the community? Probably won't, particularly if they offer the substandard care that many dental mills provide. No treatment is better than bad treatment.
The only hope is that the OEC stock is about as high as my vertical.

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The other force needs to come into play. If orthodontics or any other specialty is really specialized in both skill and knowledge then the scope of practice, rigors of board examination (specialty boards) should support the fact that their specialists really are a clear step above a GP in terms of knowledge and skill and that the daily proceedures would be out of the scope of the general practitioner. What is the pass/fail rate of Orthodontic board examinations? What happens to people who matriculate through an ortho program yet don't pass boards? Some specialties can be practiced by a GP with alot of interest. They make it hard for others to practice the scope by protecting its information. I did alot of most of the specialties as a dental student (except OMFs and ortho-ortho because they were a little protectionistic and I hated it, OMFS because tell me what a GP can do outside of dental alveolar that an OMFs does?) That is why I did OMFS and I would have a hard time doing the other specialties. I could have learned a big hunk of the other specialties from just being a GP with interest- not OMFS.... this is just another view on what does it mean to be a specialist and what is that specialty doing to clearly show that you can't just take some CE and have interest and do just what a specialist does....legitimize the training/scope of practice....

esclavo said:

this is just another view on what does it mean to be a specialist and what is that specialty doing to clearly show that you can't just take some CE and have interest and do just what a specialist does....legitimize the training/scope of practice....

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*cough* endo *cough*

I know alot of Gp's that do IV thirds. I actually got trained in the military doing them. I think that your point of specialties is very general.. Sure as GP's you are not qualified to do Orthognathic surgeries, Cleft lip/palate repairs etc. but most oral surgeons don't do them either. So that leaves good ol wizzies, that several GP's do under IV sedation (Fentanyl/Versed). So every specialty has GP involvement. Oral surgery has just as many general pratice dentists practicing their specialty as any other.

esclavo said:

The other force needs to come into play. If orthodontics or any other specialty is really specialized in both skill and knowledge then the scope of practice, rigors of board examination (specialty boards) should support the fact that their specialists really are a clear step above a GP in terms of knowledge and skill and that the daily proceedures would be out of the scope of the general practitioner. What is the pass/fail rate of Orthodontic board examinations? What happens to people who matriculate through an ortho program yet don't pass boards? Some specialties can be practiced by a GP with alot of interest. They make it hard for others to practice the scope by protecting its information. I did alot of most of the specialties as a dental student (except OMFs and ortho-ortho because they were a little protectionistic and I hated it, OMFS because tell me what a GP can do outside of dental alveolar that an OMFs does?) That is why I did OMFS and I would have a hard time doing the other specialties. I could have learned a big hunk of the other specialties from just being a GP with interest- not OMFS.... this is just another view on what does it mean to be a specialist and what is that specialty doing to clearly show that you can't just take some CE and have interest and do just what a specialist does....legitimize the training/scope of practice....

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Mayo Ortho said:

I know alot of Gp's that do IV thirds. I actually got trained in the military doing them. I think that your point of specialties is very general.. Sure as GP's you are not qualified to do Orthognathic surgeries, Cleft lip/palate repairs etc. but most oral surgeons don't do them either. So that leaves good ol wizzies, that several GP's do under IV sedation (Fentanyl/Versed). So every specialty has GP involvement. Oral surgery has just as many general pratice dentists practicing their specialty as any other.

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If they don't perform those, then who does and what do they do?

Mayo Ortho said:

I know alot of Gp's that do IV thirds. I actually got trained in the military doing them. I think that your point of specialties is very general.. Sure as GP's you are not qualified to do Orthognathic surgeries, Cleft lip/palate repairs etc. but most oral surgeons don't do them either. So that leaves good ol wizzies, that several GP's do under IV sedation (Fentanyl/Versed). So every specialty has GP involvement. Oral surgery has just as many general pratice dentists practicing their specialty as any other.

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Just like GPs who do endo, ortho, etc, these 3rd molar cases are cherry-picked. They keep the easier ones and send out the difficult ones. I've never heard of a GP digging into the coronoid or behind the orbit for those deep displaced impactions.

Implants have a similar story. If there's bone and the patient is healthy, GPs will place the implants. I can't imagine too many GPs doing iliac crest harvests to restore bone to an entire maxilla.

Being a specialist isn't about which procedures you perform. Being a specialist is about being the last and final stop for patients/problems nobody else can handle. If a solution to a patient's problem exists, then a specialist can handle it. There's no issue of trying to decide what your comfort level is with each patient (whether or not to refer).

This goes for all specialties.

Mayo Ortho said:

I know alot of Gp's that do IV thirds. I actually got trained in the military doing them. I think that your point of specialties is very general.. Sure as GP's you are not qualified to do Orthognathic surgeries, Cleft lip/palate repairs etc. but most oral surgeons don't do them either. So that leaves good ol wizzies, that several GP's do under IV sedation (Fentanyl/Versed). So every specialty has GP involvement. Oral surgery has just as many general pratice dentists practicing their specialty as any other.

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GP's do dental alveolar surgery (which they should). Very few do anesthesia (sedation, deep sedation, and generals). Can they give a little oral sedation? If they think they can. The far majority don't/won't because it is when life/death and significant morbidity are involved, teeth are teeth but life is life. Orthognathic, pathology (oral and facial), neck pathology, comprehensive medical work up and evaluation, advanced infection, cosmetic facial surgery... Dental alveolar surgery is only 1/8th of the training scope of OMFS... The other seven are what legitimize the specialty. The rigors of board examination and percentage of those that pass further demand rigorous proficiency. I think OMFs is the most specialized of the specialities for that reason and the one worthy of my exteneded effort....

Jediwendell said:

Don't you love being the bottom of the funnel? Guaranteed, if I saw a patient coming into the dental school in any form of wheel chair, I was going to see them. Wheelchair= OMS referral. I think OMS is the specialist of dental specialists. They will always be called upon to bail out the others.

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Wheelchair, restraints, beligerent, can't get an exam, can't get xrays, kid with public aid insurance= OMFS referral... sad but true. For having such a severe disdain for rectal exams, I still deal with alot of crap....

Like I had mentioned before all AEGD programs in the Military have their residents become certified in IV conscious sedation. Their are nearly 60 general dentists a year trained. Several split from the military and are practicing IV sedation and third molar removal. Several other AEGD programs at dental schools are also certifing their students in IV sedation.
By the way oral sedation is gay and is more like candy. The titration and metoblism are very unpredictable. (even for all of the oral surgeons I have seen use it) A pre-op valium to take the edge off maybe before surgery.

I realize that if an oral surgeon practices to his or her full scope of care that the procedures are vast and complex and require the extra training. But several oral surgeons limit their scope of care to only wisdom teeth and implants because their is less stress and more $$$. Very few after school ever do Orthognathic surgeries. And they all site the same reasons. The risk vs reward scale is not in their favor.
Now with several GP's placing implants along with perio programs and even pros progrmas involved with placement, the exclusivness of the oral surgeons practice is changing. I feel they are by far the most compitent but other specialties saw all the money and wanted a piece of the pie. I am not a real fan of some of the GP's placing implants. Because I don't think that the two week course that many take is sufficient.

esclavo said:

GP's do dental alveolar surgery (which they should). Very few do anesthesia (sedation, deep sedation, and generals). Can they give a little oral sedation? If they think they can. The far majority don't/won't because it is when life/death and significant morbidity are involved, teeth are teeth but life is life. Orthognathic, pathology (oral and facial), neck pathology, comprehensive medical work up and evaluation, advanced infection, cosmetic facial surgery... Dental alveolar surgery is only 1/8th of the training scope of OMFS... The other seven are what legitimize the specialty. The rigors of board examination and percentage of those that pass further demand rigorous proficiency. I think OMFs is the most specialized of the specialities for that reason and the one worthy of my exteneded effort....

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I agree getting sued for baggin a lingual nerve as a general dentist sucks. But it sucks for a surgeon as well. If it is routinely happening obviously your not qulified in doing the cases you have selected and need to quit. I have seen several IAN's bagged by the surgeons on BSSO. Crap happens.

Jediwendell said:

Many that do eventually quit because of the medicolegal stuff involved. Getting sued for a lingual nerve as a GP is a whole different ball of wax than if you are an OMS. The idea behind GPs doing things that a specialist does is: if you do it, you should do it as well as the specialist. We all know this doesn't happen for many GPs, but $$ talks. That is when the complications get referred. A good GP/specialist relationship should probably be some of that, but a nice referral situation otherwise.

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Mayo Ortho said:

I agree getting sued for baggin a lingual nerve as a general dentist sucks. But it sucks for a surgeon as well. If it is routinely happening obviously your not qulified in doing the cases you have selected and need to quit. I have seen several IAN's bagged by the surgeons on BSSO. Crap happens.

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Not to quibble, but there's a HUGE difference between a tooth and a BSSO. Especially for large advancements where you know the nerve will get stretched.

Mayo Ortho said:

Like I had mentioned before all AEGD programs in the Military have their residents become certified in IV conscious sedation. Their are nearly 60 general dentists a year trained. Several split from the military and are practicing IV sedation and third molar removal. Several other AEGD programs at dental schools are also certifing their students in IV sedation.
By the way oral sedation is gay and is more like candy. The titration and metoblism are very unpredictable. (even for all of the oral surgeons I have seen use it) A pre-op valium to take the edge off maybe before surgery.

I realize that if an oral surgeon practices to his or her full scope of care that the procedures are vast and complex and require the extra training. But several oral surgeons limit their scope of care to only wisdom teeth and implants because their is less stress and more $$$. Very few after school ever do Orthognathic surgeries. And they all site the same reasons. The risk vs reward scale is not in their favor.
Now with several GP's placing implants along with perio programs and even pros progrmas involved with placement, the exclusivness of the oral surgeons practice is changing. I feel they are by far the most compitent but other specialties saw all the money and wanted a piece of the pie. I am not a real fan of some of the GP's placing implants. Because I don't think that the two week course that many take is sufficient.

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I am an HPSP from the AirForce and none of my 6 buddies who are IV certified feel competent that they can offer the service without more hastle, equipment, insurance, trained assistants, crash cart, and office site certification.

I don't mind GP's, periodontists, endodontists, prosthodontists or anyone else placing implants. I actually think that for a straight forward implant, if the one who places can restore it then he controls the entire process. Implants are simple. Big sinus lifts and implants, big bone grafts and implants etcetera are a different story. I've heard of periodontists getting orthopedic surgeons to harvest hip for the them, which in my opinion is fine too. As long as that periodontist has someone competent that can back his crap up if he runs into a hurricaine. But I still think we do a better job than orthopedic surgeons. In our hospital (12 orthopedic surgeons-3 oral surgeons), we have by far less complications, shorter hospital stays, better patient satisfaction (I will admit we take about 1/4 to 1/3 less quantity of bone on average). I watched an orthopedist take posterior hip, and it was brutal. Those guys must think that the soft tissue is just to keep the bones from drying out. I didn't go into OMFS to do 3rds and implants for the rest of my life. I could have saved myself 3/4 of my grief and just learned another way.

They must have been at Ouffett or Langley. Most that go thru including all those I keep in touch with are currently using their IV certification and chuckin wisdom teeth. It must depend on where you practice as far as insurance goes. I practiced in the midwest and checked into IV insurance and was shocked on the price. It wasn't as bad as I would have thought, seeing how much some of the GP's were charging for it.

I can appreciate your wanting to do more of a broad spectrum of Oral surgery. You definitely are not the norm of those in practice currently. Good for you. I think that the reward as far as personal satisfaction must be great. I have worked with Oral surgeons on Pierre Robin, Treacher Collins, Aperts and the like, I definitley am amazed by the overall changes.

By the way where did you do you AEGD? I bet your glad to be done. Don't forget that after the 8 years are up you need to disenroll yourself!

esclavo said:

I am an HPSP from the AirForce and none of my 6 buddies who are IV certified feel competent that they can offer the service without more hastle, equipment, insurance, trained assistants, crash cart, and office site certification.

I don't mind GP's, periodontists, endodontists, prosthodontists or anyone else placing implants. I actually think that for a straight forward implant, if the one who places can restore it then he controls the entire process. Implants are simple. Big sinus lifts and implants, big bone grafts and implants etcetera are a different story. I've heard of periodontists getting orthopedic surgeons to harvest hip for the them, which in my opinion is fine too. As long as that periodontist has someone competent that can back his crap up if he runs into a hurricaine. But I still think we do a better job than orthopedic surgeons. In our hospital (12 orthopedic surgeons-3 oral surgeons), we have by far less complications, shorter hospital stays, better patient satisfaction (I will admit we take about 1/4 to 1/3 less quantity of bone on average). I watched an orthopedist take posterior hip, and it was brutal. Those guys must think that the soft tissue is just to keep the bones from drying out. I didn't go into OMFS to do 3rds and implants for the rest of my life. I could have saved myself 3/4 of my grief and just learned another way.

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Mayo Ortho said:

They must have been at Ouffett or Langley. Most that go thru including all those I keep in touch with are currently using their IV certification and chuckin wisdom teeth. It must depend on where you practice as far as insurance goes. I practiced in the midwest and checked into IV insurance and was shocked on the price. It wasn't as bad as I would have thought, seeing how much some of the GP's were charging for it.

I can appreciate your wanting to do more of a broad spectrum of Oral surgery. You definitely are not the norm of those in practice currently. Good for you. I think that the reward as far as personal satisfaction must be great. I have worked with Oral surgeons on Pierre Robin, Treacher Collins, Aperts and the like, I definitley am amazed by the overall changes.

By the way where did you do you AEGD? I bet your glad to be done. Don't forget that after the 8 years are up you need to disenroll yourself!

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I went straight from dental school to OMFS. I still owe my time. There was 7 of us total in our class in AF HPSP. I keep in good contact with all of them. They are all very conscientious and responsible practitioners. They were all top notched in dental school. 4 of them are starting endo programs this fall one is going to do ortho. My three years of active duty are still in front of me.

I feel for you. I was a general dentist while I was in. But the heads of the dental corp are usually 50+ years old dentists that tell the specialists how to do their jobs. Gets pretty old quick. Also your squadron commander will probably be nurse also telling how to go about your job. Best to seperate after your commitment. Hopefully you can get a nice overseas tour and then bail. Good Luck

esclavo said:

I went straight from dental school to OMFS. I still owe my time. There was 7 of us total in our class in AF HPSP. I keep in good contact with all of them. They are all very conscientious and responsible practitioners. They were all top notched in dental school. 4 of them are starting endo programs this fall one is going to do ortho. My three years of active duty are still in front of me.

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As somebody who signed up for the 7 years of indentured servitude, I am beginning to see what con artists they are. They have already changed the contract after we committed to them. When we signed on with them the contract said we weren't financially responsible for the losses incurred in the first couple of years. (I felt this was a great deal, since I could learn ortho on their dime) Then a couple of days before the residency started, and 9 months after I turned down a couple of other ortho schools (contrary to popular belief some of us could get into other ortho programs, we just don't want to live on the other side of the country), they hand me another contract which says that I am now financially liable if the practice doesn't make money. They told me sign it or don't start school next week.
Don't believe that crap about opening two offices for you. They will tell you that they are opening two offices for you and you need 22 starts a month to pull in $5-600K/ year. They told me that, now they are telling me that I have to earn my second office. (probably 4 years into the contract so that I can pay off all the office expenses). So now one office has to have 44 starts. Another thing is they have a ton of "corporate expenses". They send 6 people down to your office to "fix" something and you have to pay for their travel expenses, and their entertainment. They take their sweet time to reimburse you, and now they are sending fake patients into the offices to spy. You will never end up making more than 150K/year, because the cost to open all these new ortho programs is coming directly from your practice. It is considered an expense. If you build a million dollar practice for them (which takes a lot of work), after overhead, and their take, you will make less than $200K. I could pick my nose all day and make $150K! Where's the incentive? This business is so poorly run, and the doctors who deal with OEC are mostly unhappy. If this is your only way to do ortho, you have to do what you have to do. The positive side of OEC is that you are guaranteed $150K even if all you do is pick your nose. So you can take your $150K, and work in another office and make about $200-250K. Plus they paid for school.

Is there are way that you can just drop the contract, pay for school, and not deal the OEC headache?

Firm said:

...Then a couple of days before the residency started, and 9 months after I turned down a couple of other ortho schools (contrary to popular belief some of us could get into other ortho programs, we just don't want to live on the other side of the country), they hand me another contract which says that I am now financially liable if the practice doesn't make money. They told me sign it or don't start school next week. ...

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Is that legal for them to go back on their original deal? You had already signed a contract, right?

This reminds me of a scam going on here in Texas with Family Practice physicians. There is a "corporate" group that recruits these guys straight of of residency to serve the underserved areas in south Texas. They lure you there with a great deal and good financial incentives. Then 6 months into the job they fire you. They wait about a week and call you back to offer you a new contract (modified to their liking)....this is after you've invested in the community, your kids are in school, the wife has her friends, etc. You're "stuck" to a certain degree. I'm not sure why those physicians don't just pull out and leave. I would have no problem pulling my family up and moving to give those guys the finger.

kato999 said:

Is there are way that you can just drop the contract, pay for school, and not deal the OEC headache?

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Good point. If they cancelled your contract, why can't you cancel theirs?

toofache32 said:

Good point. If they cancelled your contract, why can't you cancel theirs?

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They didn't cancel the contract. They created another one, and told me a few days before school to sign it or don't show up to school. I could have challenged it in court, but I would not have started school on time. They told me "You can't afford to go to court with us", which is true. They tried to change the contract a third time, but they didn't have the leverage. Watch out, if they have an advantage over you, they will take it. The company is so poorly run, that their current (daily) finances may dictate they contract you get.

Firm said:

They didn't cancel the contract. They created another one, and told me a few days before school to sign it or don't show up to school. I could have challenged it in court, but I would not have started school on time. They told me "You can't afford to go to court with us", which is true. They tried to change the contract a third time, but they didn't have the leverage. Watch out, if they have an advantage over you, they will take it. The company is so poorly run, that their current (daily) finances may dictate they contract you get.

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Good point. You can't fight a corporation with deeper pockets than you. Down with The Man!

Firm said:

As somebody who signed up for the 7 years of indentured servitude, I am beginning to see what con artists they are. They have already changed the contract after we committed to them. When we signed on with them the contract said we weren't financially responsible for the losses incurred in the first couple of years. (I felt this was a great deal, since I could learn ortho on their dime) Then a couple of days before the residency started, and 9 months after I turned down a couple of other ortho schools (contrary to popular belief some of us could get into other ortho programs, we just don't want to live on the other side of the country), they hand me another contract which says that I am now financially liable if the practice doesn't make money. They told me sign it or don't start school next week.
Don't believe that crap about opening two offices for you. They will tell you that they are opening two offices for you and you need 22 starts a month to pull in $5-600K/ year.

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Sorry to hear you found out about what a scam OEC really is. I hope to those that want to sign with OEC read this. However, I have absolutely no sympathy for you. No one can tell you what a professionally destructive decision it is to sign up with OEC; luring, dumb, green, innocent, fresh energetic meat out of dental school or from anywhere else. You really have to find out for yourself how much of a scam this is -- and unfortunately you did. Good luck for the next 9 yrs. and good riddins to your early retirement. By the way do you remember your following quote about OEC:

This seems to be an OEC bashing forum. I believe that it's the orthodontists fault that the OEC has developed. For a long time orthodontists have been content to open suburban practices, charge high prices, and work minimal hours, while at the same time limiting the number of people who can get into ortho programs. 20-30 years of this resulted in the OEC. Someone on here said that "the OEC is trying to ruin the integrity of ortho programs". I think that the ortho programs ruined there integrity when they limited their spots, and accepted only legacies, and people who donated large amounts of money. A practice is something most ortho residents can't afford right away. It may take 3-4 years to get started, why not learn on Lazzara's dime.
I'll close on this.

Lazzara is not a bad guy, he's a grandfather in his 60's and has more money than he knows what to do with. For him this isnt all about money, it's about changing the way orthodontics has worked for the past 30 years. I agree that things do need to change.
I hope that we can have a civil discussion on this topic without name calling and insults.

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That quote was from thread called "ortho match day" so look it up if you want to refresh your memory. Lazzara is not a bad guy and its not about money for him --- what a joke -- he will be laughing all the way to the bank all on account of you and all the others he's able to lure into his indenture service agreement. "Why not learn on Lazzara's dime" -- your not -- your learning on your dime and much more.

All the bullshiit that OEC will be sticking to you -- you've only just seen the surface -- just wait till you are in practice. I have absolutely NO sympathy for you. You've just signed 9 yrs of your life away. But its all good because you will be picking your nose and making 150k -- if you want to think of that as a good way to make a living and it makes feel better about your situation then its all good -- but its kinda sad.

Firm
We all should applaud your honesty. We need to get the word out about these guys. No one deserves to go thru what you are. I suppose you can't really go public with this due to your contractual commitment. Please give us as much info on your experiences as possible.

Thanks again and good luck

Firm said:

As somebody who signed up for the 7 years of indentured servitude, I am beginning to see what con artists they are. They have already changed the contract after we committed to them. When we signed on with them the contract said we weren't financially responsible for the losses incurred in the first couple of years. (I felt this was a great deal, since I could learn ortho on their dime) Then a couple of days before the residency started, and 9 months after I turned down a couple of other ortho schools (contrary to popular belief some of us could get into other ortho programs, we just don't want to live on the other side of the country), they hand me another contract which says that I am now financially liable if the practice doesn't make money. They told me sign it or don't start school next week.
Don't believe that crap about opening two offices for you. They will tell you that they are opening two offices for you and you need 22 starts a month to pull in $5-600K/ year. They told me that, now they are telling me that I have to earn my second office. (probably 4 years into the contract so that I can pay off all the office expenses). So now one office has to have 44 starts. Another thing is they have a ton of "corporate expenses". They send 6 people down to your office to "fix" something and you have to pay for their travel expenses, and their entertainment. They take their sweet time to reimburse you, and now they are sending fake patients into the offices to spy. You will never end up making more than 150K/year, because the cost to open all these new ortho programs is coming directly from your practice. It is considered an expense. If you build a million dollar practice for them (which takes a lot of work), after overhead, and their take, you will make less than $200K. I could pick my nose all day and make $150K! Where's the incentive? This business is so poorly run, and the doctors who deal with OEC are mostly unhappy. If this is your only way to do ortho, you have to do what you have to do. The positive side of OEC is that you are guaranteed $150K even if all you do is pick your nose. So you can take your $150K, and work in another office and make about $200-250K. Plus they paid for school.

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dort-ort said:

Sorry to hear you found out about what a scam OEC really is. I hope to those that want to sign with OEC read this. However, I have absolutely no sympathy for you. No one can tell you what a professionally destructive decision it is to sign up with OEC; luring, dumb, green, innocent, fresh energetic meat out of dental school or from anywhere else. You really have to find out for yourself how much of a scam this is -- and unfortunately you did. Good luck for the next 9 yrs. and good riddins to your early retirement. By the way do you remember your following quote about OEC:



That quote was from thread called "ortho match day" so look it up if you want to refresh your memory. Lazzara is not a bad guy and its not about money for him --- what a joke -- he will be laughing all the way to the bank all on account of you and all the others he's able to lure into his indenture service agreement. "Why not learn on Lazzara's dime" -- your not -- your learning on your dime and much more.

All the bullshiit that OEC will be sticking to you -- you've only just seen the surface -- just wait till you are in practice. I have absolutely NO sympathy for you. You've just signed 9 yrs of your life away. But its all good because you will be picking your nose and making 150k -- if you want to think of that as a good way to make a living and it makes feel better about your situation then its all good -- but its kinda sad.

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Dort-ort,
Let's just keep things real for a minute. This is an Ortho residency, and whether you go OEC, or non-OEC you're still going to be an orthodontist. Life could be worse, I could be digging ditches for a living. What is sad is that you don't realize this. Comparing OEC vs Non-OEC is like comparing Porsche and Lambourgini's. First, the programs are 2 years. So the comittment is actually 7 years, not 9(Unless you only plan on doing some 6 month ortho course). Second, I'll probably make more coming out of school than you will, without the hassle of the senior orthodontist telling me how to practice. I even am willing to bet that I will probably make as much as you will the first seven years out, and I know that I will make more than you 15 years out, so there goes my retirement. Third, Lazzara is about more than money, he's about power and influence. There is no traditional ortho program in the country that could have taught me some of the lessons that I have learned here. Don't get me wrong, I really don't want to see corporate orthodontics succeed either. I don't believe it will. I just want to pass on a few lessons that I've learned when dealing with big business.

Firm said:

Dort-ort,
Let's just keep things real for a minute. This is an Ortho residency, and whether you go OEC, or non-OEC you're still going to be an orthodontist. Life could be worse, I could be digging ditches for a living. What is sad is that you don't realize this. Comparing OEC vs Non-OEC is like comparing Porsche and Lambourgini's. First, the programs are 2 years. So the comittment is actually 7 years, not 9(Unless you only plan on doing some 6 month ortho course). Second, I'll probably make more coming out of school than you will, without the hassle of the senior orthodontist telling me how to practice. I even am willing to bet that I will probably make as much as you will the first seven years out, and I know that I will make more than you 15 years out, so there goes my retirement. Third, Lazzara is about more than money, he's about power and influence. There is no traditional ortho program in the country that could have taught me some of the lessons that I have learned here. Don't get me wrong, I really don't want to see corporate orthodontics succeed either. I don't believe it will. I just want to pass on a few lessons that I've learned when dealing with big business.

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Firm -- its fine, you made your decision, you are the one that has to live with it, just accept and admit it was not the best decision. And I really commend you for speaking honestly about OEC.

You have many things wrong however -- No you are not going to be an orthodontist when you are done -- you will be an indentured servant doing orthodontics. Yes life could be worse digging ditches, I agree -- but so could doing molar endo all day long.

You are going to tell me comparing traditional ortho programs and OEC is like comparing Porsche and Lambourgini, sorry but I differ completely. Let me explain -- I have never made the argument that faculty, education, or the ability of the OEC programs to train their "indenture" residents was going to be inferior -- money can buy good facilities and good faculty and thats what Lazzara has done, thats fine. The argument for me has solely been what and how your professional or more so "indentured" life will be after you are done with your OEC residency. As well as ruining the objectivity of the application process as well as far reaching negative precedent for dentistry and professional schools OEC will have. Each and every day once you are out -- you will be told how your office will be run and you will have to answer to management -- you will have given up your professional autonomy. Your assistants will not have the same support for you or the same respect for you since you are not writing their paychecks. Sure no one is going to tell you how to move teeth --- but thats the least of your worries once in private practice, as you will soon find out (as a matter of fact, moving teeth is the fun part) all the other things involved is the hard part. When you have the freedom to change your practice to how you want it to be it is a joy. You will not have this ability for a very long time. You will have to live with that. It will eat at you each day of that 7 years. You will come to see that in time, you are already starting to see it now. Thats the problem I have with OEC.

I hope people realize that there should be some sanctity in professional schools. Otherwise we are going towards the like of optometrist, pharmacists, and chiropractors. I don't want that. If you like that then thats fine.

Regarding having to commit to nine years once joining OEC --- 2 yrs residency plus 7 yrs of indentured servitude equals nine years to me. Unless I am missing something, thats a long time to sacrifice a professional career and a big price to pay. Especially giving up your prime years to someone.

Regarding you making more money -- it is really silly for you to bring this up. It shows what your true intentions are. It shows to me that truly in your mind, this is all about money isn't it? If thats the case then you can kiss money goodbye by joining OEC. For now lets forget about how OEC is taking advantage of people, how Lazzara is ruining the professionalism of orthodontics, forget about how he is setting the precedent to water down all of dentistry, on and on. Well if you want to compare about money I will tell you. I graduated ortho residency in 1999, I went to a state school so my debt from dental school was only around 20k although I worked part time during school and that helped, the ortho residency I went to had GME funding at the time so I didn't have any debt from ortho residency (actually got paid), after ortho residency my first job -- I was offered -- was 250k/yr, did that for 2 yrs (with all the clinical autonomy I wanted and I could leave anytime I wanted but you have to make sure you have that explicit in the contract -- good attorney a must). Once I clearly knew how I wanted to practice I bought an existing practice and molded it to my liking and now after 2 yrs am making 3-4 times what I made as an associate, quickly paying off my debt, and am on target to retire at 45 yrs of age -- technically 47 per my advisor. Thats 14 yrs from now. At that point I will work because I want to, not because I have to. I must say its not like that for everyone and I think I got lucky with the people I associated with and made the right choices along the way to be at this point. So in summary, if thats what your outlook is with OEC, then yes you have me beat, and you will be doing better than me. Although my practice is still growing. Keep in touch and we'll compare notes once you are out and in one of those Imagine ortho offices.

As far as Lazarra is concerned -- I don't care what you think he is about.
You just have to accept the choices you make and how it affects your professional career -- good or bad. Its encouraging that you are honest and letting others know the true color of OEC. Then if others still decide to do OEC, they know what they are getting into. Best of luck.

dort-ort said:

I graduated ortho residency in 1999, I went to a state school so my debt from dental school was only around 20k although I worked part time during school and that helped, the ortho residency I went to had GME funding at the time so I didn't have any debt from ortho residency (actually got paid), after ortho residency my first job -- I was offered -- was 250k/yr, did that for 2 yrs (with all the clinical autonomy I wanted and I could leave anytime I wanted but you have to make sure you have that explicit in the contract -- good attorney a must). Once I clearly knew how I wanted to practice I bought an existing practice and molded it to my liking and now after 2 yrs am making 3-4 times what I made as an associate, quickly paying off my debt, and am on target to retire at 45 yrs of age -- technically 47 per my advisor. Thats 14 yrs from now. .

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OK, this paragraph has made up my mind...as a GP, I will try my hardest to only refer to Imagine for the rest of my career. NOBODY in the dental field should be making $1 million dollars from a single practice. If this estimate is correct (i really doubt it is), then you are the prime example of why OEC exists. Nobody is going to feel sorry for you that you might have some competition in town...even if half of your business goes down the toilet, then your still making 500k/year. Will OEC cause the cost of orthodontics to drop....yeah. Is this a bad thing?...if your financial boasts are correct, then hell no!!!

I think that Firm was correct with his post when he said that the orthodontists themselves caused the creation of OEC. If the optometrists had their say, they would probably be happy making 1M/year also. And I'm sure if a set of glasses cost 4-5 thousand dollars, they probably would.

Quit acting like your so much better than all other professionals and that your profession would be ruined if you are not allowed to make the salary you make. Face up and tell the truth already...your only beef with OEC is the economic threat they place on you.....what the hell do you care what some poor sap residents do that can't get into traditional residency programs.