A hot topic: LYING ABOUT YOUR RACE.

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nebbione

Yes ladies and gentlemen. There has been much interest in a recent, facetious thread entitled "Backdoors to medical school." Indeed, one such backdoor does exist and in fact, I am watching its effects unfold before me as one of my female colleagues manipulates it and interviews on a weekly basis to the twenty or so schools to which she has applied.

Mexican? Hispanic? Sure, why not. Native American? By what definition. I have not played the card, but surely some have - and worst, some are in our very own cycle. They are among us, and I guarantee you, not all interviewers realize that the student before them has arrived before them for a race-related reason, giving them an even greater advantage to ease their way in without underlining their tactic or even defending it with elaborate stories.

Then, Michigan's e-mail about continuing with its current policy despite the votes of the citizens of its State. What is this about? Outright defiance? What is wrong with economic considerations of applicants? These are questions that I am not attempting to answer in this thread - but to simply propose.

The bottom line is. If you want to experiment, DO NOT enter a race on the application for AMCAS. Then, for each school individually, enter a race of your choice. The results will be empirical and self-evident. Eventually, universities, particularly the left-leaning Michigan and other Ivies, will bind together to ensure that no such scams are played. But in that case, you could just lie across the board!

Fantastic. Let the games begin.
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nebbione said:
Yes ladies and gentlemen. There has been much interest in a recent, facetious thread entitled "Backdoors to medical school." Indeed, one such backdoor does exist and in fact, I am watching its effects unfold before me as one of my female colleagues manipulates it and interviews on a weekly basis to the twenty or so schools to which she has applied.

Mexican? Hispanic? Sure, why not. Native American? By what definition. I have not played the card, but surely some have - and worst, some are in our very own cycle. They are among us, and I guarantee you, not all interviewers realize that the student before them has arrived before them for a race-related reason, giving them an even greater advantage to ease their way in without underlining their tactic or even defending it with elaborate stories.

Then, Michigan's e-mail about continuing with its current policy despite the votes of the citizens of its State. What is this about? Outright defiance? What is wrong with economic considerations of applicants? These are questions that I am not attempting to answer in this thread - but to simply propose.

The bottom line is. If you want to experiment, DO NOT enter a race on the application for AMCAS. Then, for each school individually, enter a race of your choice. The results will be empirical and self-evident. Eventually, universities, particularly the left-leaning Michigan and other Ivies, will bind together to ensure that no such scams are played. But in that case, you could just lie across the board!

Fantastic. Let the games begin.
Click to expand...

While I do beleive there may be some people who take advantage of this...just remember that most are legitimatly that race and ethinicity and regardless of whether it is unfair or not...do not judge them for answering the questions medical schools ask...they are not the ones who put the question in place so do not respond in anger/jealousy/animosity to anyone who puts down a race as part of the application to medical school
 
You give us very little credit if you don't think that we see right through the ruse, particularly when one gives one's place of birth, parents' names and current locations, and languages spoken.

Open file interviewers see what is written and see the applicant, talk with the applicant, and if it doesn't add up, the evaluation isn't going to be favorable.

I like to ask, "In your view, what are the greatest health problems that in the ___ community?"

If an applicant is a member of the community (as is claimed), it should be an easy question to answer.
 
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Thing is, in the real world, it doesn't matter what the person thinks he is. Matters how society sees you.

A bi-racial fella is always gonna be "just another (enter racist insult here)" to someone. Sad but true.

dc
 
Yeah, lying about race or putting "undeclared" is just asking for trouble IMO.

I think too many people try too hard. I've never been through the interview process myself, but I'd imagine there is a certain respect for "honest applicants":D
 
tncekm said:
Yeah, lying about race or putting "undeclared" is just asking for trouble IMO.

I think too many people try too hard. I've never been through the interview process myself, but I'd imagine there is a certain respect for "honest applicants":D
Click to expand...

Is "undeclared" considered "dishonest?" It's optional, so I didn't mark it just because I don't believe med schools have any business knowing and therefore evaluating based on race. It's not like I try to misrepresent myself though. In interviews when asked how I learned Spanish (I'm not Latino), I tell them in school and through travel and service experiences. Hasn't caused me trouble once yet.
 
I don't think undeclared is a "bad" thing, but to me seeing and undeclared mark would come off as "please assuming I'm a URM so I can get an interview". But, I don't know any better than anyone else...I don't do the interviewing :D
 
My unmistakably white friend from Oklahoma "applied" to be a Cherokee. Basically what she told me is all you have to do is prove that you are related to one Cherokee some way, no matter how distant of a relative, and that gives you a Cherokee status.
 
physiclas87 said:
My unmistakably white friend from Oklahoma "applied" to be a Cherokee. Basically what she told me is all you have to do is prove that you are related to one Cherokee some way, no matter how distant of a relative, and that gives you a Cherokee status.
Click to expand...

u know "lying" is only going to get you so far in life, unless ur a lawyer
 
LizzyM said:
You give us very little credit if you don't think that we see right through the ruse, .
Click to expand...

LEZZYM, you give us very little credit if you dont think we can see right through your ruse (mainly denying racial quotas exist)
 
szhao said:
u know "lying" is only going to get you so far in life, unless ur a lawyer
Click to expand...

IF A THIEF STOLE YOUR WALLET AND YOU TOOK HIM TO COURT AND THE COURT SAID THAT THE THEIF DID NOTHING WRONG WOULD YOU have a ethical problem of stealing it back if you were given the chance. Or better yet if you could use a loophole and legally get it back would you?
 
I have read applications and interviewed people this year who claimed URM status that seemed "dubious" to me. I wrote my recommendations taking that into consideration.

Fewer than half of all applicants get admitted. The proportion of URM who are admitted is lower than the proportion of all applicants who get admitted. So how does lying on the application equal an unfair advantage that guarantees admission??
 
I second LizzyM. If you claim to be a minority, you better be prepared to show that basically every aspect of your life identifies you as a minority (This is pretty obvious when you interact with "true minorities"). There will be minority faculty and students (certainly some from your supposed background) involved in the admissions of All (minority or otherwise) students. It is too easy to detect liers.
 
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i find it little irritating that some ppl get the "benefit" of the minority label based on a technicality like:

A. someone who is african and american (ie parents immigrated from africa 20 years ago) being labeled african american

B. someone who's north african (like egyptian) being labeled african american.


while i guess both are true, i think its defeating the purpose that schls have in mind when they ask.

but then again what should someone like "A" do when filling out the race question?

we should just forget about the whole minority thing, and look more at overall disadvantages (poverty, etc) the student had to overcome.
 
Question: I'm Jewish by blood, could I put that on my formal application instead of Caucasian?
 
The OP's suggestion of putting different races on different applications sounds like a good way to throw away a couple thousand dollars. I can think of 20 strip clubs where that money would be better spent.
 
I've seen plenty of people manipulate the system at UofM for undergrad, mainly for listing "hispanic" down when really they only have a single grandparent who fits that description... however you'll be eaten alive if you try that **** for graduate admissions.

as for Michigan's "defiance," there was nothing in Propoal 2 that specifically calls out AA as illegal. Until the State Supreme Court tells them that their policy is illegal thru a series of lawsuits, they can basically do whatever the hell they want. Keep in mind that the SCOTUS ruled in Michigan's favor with similar wording in federal laws as Proposal 2 exists now; however, the state court tends to be in conservative hands who have a bit of an "activist" streak (ex: Markman, Taylor, Young).
 
tncekm said:
seeing and undeclared mark would come off as "please assuming I'm a URM so I can get an interview".
Click to expand...
I disagree. The point of the undeclared option is to eliminate any prejudices/biases an adcom might have in the initial screening of an app, however unintentional. For this reason, I put undeclared on my apps because, like humble said, I don't think race should be a factor in my admission. I'm not a URM, I'm an ORM, and as this thread suggests, most URMs (or people pretending to be URMs) definitely divulge that info on their app because it will probably help them, at least in the initial stages of the process.
 
Lorienne7 said:
I disagree. The point of the undeclared option is to eliminate any prejudices/biases an adcom might have in the initial screening of an app, however unintentional. For this reason, I put undeclared on my apps because, like humble said, I don't think race should be a factor in my admission. I'm not a URM, I'm an ORM, and as this thread suggests, most URMs (or people pretending to be URMs) definitely divulge that info on their app because it will probably help them, at least in the initial stages of the process.
Click to expand...
I agree with you that the undeclared option should be just that, but I think that some of the people responsible for your admitance may look down on it, so to me eliminating the possibility of any such disagreement is just a good idea.
 
Hi.

I lied about my race. I said I was black. At first my interviewers didn't want to believe me because not only am I actually Greek but my parents are Macedonian Greeks, i.e. the Swiss of the Hellenic world.

So we went around and around. I'd give some proof, they'd refute it. I tried busting a rhyme, they cited Vanilla Ice. I railed against "the Man," they yawned as every white liberal does this. I even tried a few break dance moves but despite my baggy pants, apparently MC Hammer sold out and is now considered a white man.

Desperate, I broke out the ebonics but I wasn't very convincing. Sure I could manage to say "axe" for ask but correct conjugation of verbs gave me away.

Finally I dropped the big one. Let's just say that after I zipped my trousers and sat down I had established my street cred. The rest is history.

Sincerely,

P. Bear, MD
Emergency Medicine Resident
No Moussaka, No Peace
 
oh, and I'd say the vast majority of those I know who list themselves undeclared are asians who feel that they're at an even greater disadvantage than whites.
 
Panda Bear said:
Hi.

I lied about my race. I said I was black. At first my interviewers didn't want to believe me because not only am I actually Greek but my parents are Macedonian Greeks, i.e. the Swiss of the Hellenic world.

So we went around and around. I'd give some proof, they'd refute it. I tried busting a rhyme, they cited Vanilla Ice. I railed against "the Man," they yawned as every white liberal does this. I even tried a few break dance moves but despite my baggy pants, apparently MC Hammer sold out and is now considered a white man.

Desperate, I broke out the ebonics but I wasn't very convincing. Sure I could manage to say "axe" for ask but correct conjugation of verbs gave me away.

Finally I dropped the big one. Let's just say that after I zipped my trousers and sat down I had established my street cred. The rest is history.

Sincerely,

P. Bear, MD
Emergency Medicine Resident
No Moussaka, No Peace
Click to expand...

:laugh: :laugh: That was great. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
 
maestro1625 said:
oh, and I'd say the vast majority of those I know who list themselves undeclared are asians who feel that they're at an even greater disadvantage than whites.
Click to expand...

hee hee, you caught me :D
 
if med schools actually followed their own rules, ie. no preference given to applicants based on racial/ethnic background, we wouldnt be having this issue would we?
 
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nebbione said:
Yes ladies and gentlemen. There has been much interest in a recent, facetious thread entitled "Backdoors to medical school." Indeed, one such backdoor does exist and in fact, I am watching its effects unfold before me as one of my female colleagues manipulates it and interviews on a weekly basis to the twenty or so schools to which she has applied.

Mexican? Hispanic? Sure, why not. Native American? By what definition. I have not played the card, but surely some have - and worst, some are in our very own cycle. They are among us, and I guarantee you, not all interviewers realize that the student before them has arrived before them for a race-related reason, giving them an even greater advantage to ease their way in without underlining their tactic or even defending it with elaborate stories.

Then, Michigan's e-mail about continuing with its current policy despite the votes of the citizens of its State. What is this about? Outright defiance? What is wrong with economic considerations of applicants? These are questions that I am not attempting to answer in this thread - but to simply propose.

The bottom line is. If you want to experiment, DO NOT enter a race on the application for AMCAS. Then, for each school individually, enter a race of your choice. The results will be empirical and self-evident. Eventually, universities, particularly the left-leaning Michigan and other Ivies, will bind together to ensure that no such scams are played. But in that case, you could just lie across the board!

Fantastic. Let the games begin.
Click to expand...

You can't claim Native American unless you have a verification card.
 
istream said:
if med schools actually followed their own rules, ie. no preference given to applicants based on racial/ethnic background, we wouldnt be having this issue would we?
Click to expand...

Nope.
 
maestro1625 said:
oh, and I'd say the vast majority of those I know who list themselves undeclared are asians who feel that they're at an even greater disadvantage than whites.
Click to expand...

I thought marking asian would give me an advantage?
 
CptCrunch said:
The name gives us away.
Click to expand...
If my race/ethnicity could be identified by my name, then I would probably go ahead and mark it down since the adcoms will assume it anyway. However, my name is very "white" sounding so I like to keep 'em guessing ;) Of course, when I show up for my interview, my cover's blown...
 
maestro1625 said:
comes with the paranoia of being "overrepresented."

...so basically, no, no it wont.
Click to expand...
As someone else mentioned, often the name is a dead giveaway for most asians. If my last name were Takayama, for example, would they think I was scottish or Japanese?
 
well if Seinfeld has taught us anything... just beacuse your name is "Chang" does not make you Chinese ;)
 
LizzyM said:
Does AMCAS ask to see and verify the card? I don't believe that it does.

Race and ethnicity on the AMCAS is self-idenfication, IIRC.
Click to expand...

Yeah I think they do, pretending that you're Native is a big deal and you can probably get in trouble. Maybe not initially just on an application, but to get any benefits I'm sure htey do verify.
 
politicly INcrt said:
IF A THIEF STOLE YOUR WALLET AND YOU TOOK HIM TO COURT AND THE COURT SAID THAT THE THEIF DID NOTHING WRONG WOULD YOU have a ethical problem of stealing it back if you were given the chance. Or better yet if you could use a loophole and legally get it back would you?
Click to expand...

i would be angry for a momment, but its just a wallet, i would feel that the judical system did be a great injustice, BUT if it was meant to happen it happens, money can always be earned again, not something i would care too much over. HOWEVER i fail to see your anology to this situtation, please clearify on pm.
 
BeatrixKiddo said:
Yeah I think they do, pretending that you're Native is a big deal and you can probably get in trouble. Maybe not initially just on an application, but to get any benefits I'm sure they do verify.
Click to expand...


What benefit? To share in the casino money or get certain government benenfits you may need to prove membership but "self-identifying" on AMCAS and later being offered admission to a private school is not going to involve any formal "verification"

Granted, lying on an application is grounds for dismissal but if the instructions say "self-identify" it is hard to challenge one's "self-identification".

And there is always the possibility that one made an error. I recently reviewed an applicant who claimed Finnish as a primary language as well as two other languages, but not English. :confused: Very strange but I think that Finnish and English are close together on the pull down menu and the applicant made an honest mistake.

That said, the B.S. detectors go into overdrive when someone claims to be a URM but the rest of the demographic data and the interview don't seem to indicate that this applicant would really add any diversity to the class.
 
My father is welsh and my mom is hungarian, so that makes me:

well hung.


Do you think this helped my admission?
 
Well, for black you pretty much can't do it lol... For Hispanic, it would be hard because, you would have to change your name, learn Spanish, move to Mexico and become a citizen etc… For Native American you need a lot of proof... Finally, if you are caught you will be banned from applying to any US medical school for life…
 
szhao said:
william hung?
Click to expand...
SHE BANGS
1081297418256_William4sm.jpg


william hung is a sex symbol in china!:cool:
 
Newton Bohr MD said:
Well, for black you pretty much can't do it lol... For Hispanic, it would be hard because, you would have to change your name, learn Spanish, move to Mexico and become a citizen etc… For Native American you need a lot of proof... Finally, if you are caught you will be banned from applying to any US medical school for life…
Click to expand...

yo hablo espanol muy bien, no ESTA chino. (get me banned faster than a cheater in css)
 
BeatrixKiddo said:
Yeah I think they do, pretending that you're Native is a big deal and you can probably get in trouble. Maybe not initially just on an application, but to get any benefits I'm sure htey do verify.
Click to expand...

But the benefits of increased admissions at a graduate school is not the same as tax evasion because of "status". Although it may be lying... I don't think it is illegal to put a different race on the application. (they wouldnt be able to prosecute you)

As the school states "this is for research/statistics purposes" and will not be "used for or against you in your application".

Actually.. wouldn't it be illegal for any school to ask you for your "proof of race card" before granting you admission?

That would be interesting if someone took a university to court for that one.. :)
 
I could claim, have the card and everything, but since I am against AA, I put down white, I don't know anything about cherokee indians, my grandpa was 100%, but died before I was born, man it was tough being 25% indian, real tough, I think everything should be given to me

BeatrixKiddo said:
You can't claim Native American unless you have a verification card.
Click to expand...
 
LizzyM said:
What benefit? To share in the casino money or get certain government benenfits you may need to prove membership but "self-identifying" on AMCAS and later being offered admission to a private school is not going to involve any formal "verification"

Granted, lying on an application is grounds for dismissal but if the instructions say "self-identify" it is hard to challenge one's "self-identification".

And there is always the possibility that one made an error. I recently reviewed an applicant who claimed Finnish as a primary language as well as two other languages, but not English. :confused: Very strange but I think that Finnish and English are close together on the pull down menu and the applicant made an honest mistake.

That said, the B.S. detectors go into overdrive when someone claims to be a URM but the rest of the demographic data and the interview don't seem to indicate that this applicant would really add any diversity to the class.
Click to expand...
Oh. Yes, that's true, but if they don't use your "race" what purpose does it serve on an application? Obviously they do do something with it... ?


bsmcga0 said:
I could claim, have the card and everything, but since I am against AA, I put down white, I don't know anything about cherokee indians, my grandpa was 100%, but died before I was born, man it was tough being 25% indian, real tough, I think everything should be given to me
Click to expand...

Hey it's your choice, you could be getting free immunizations.
 
NufinButTheToof said:
But the benefits of increased admissions at a graduate school is not the same as tax evasion because of "status". Although it may be lying... I don't think it is illegal to put a different race on the application. (they wouldnt be able to prosecute you)

As the school states "this is for research/statistics purposes" and will not be "used for or against you in your application".

Actually.. wouldn't it be illegal for any school to ask you for your "proof of race card" before granting you admission?
Click to expand...

Maybe not for admission but maybe for a scholarship or waiver of fees. Also, I don't think ALL forms say
this is for research/statistics purposes" and will not be "used for or against you in your application". ? Maybe I'm wrong.
 
bsmcga0 said:
I could claim, have the card and everything, but since I am against AA, I put down white, I don't know anything about cherokee indians, my grandpa was 100%, but died before I was born, man it was tough being 25% indian, real tough, I think everything should be given to me
Click to expand...

well if you are 75 percent of any race you usually look 100 percent or damn close... Bruce lee was 25 percent German but, looked 100 percent Asian!!
 
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