Boutique Medicine good/bad

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jpro

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Do you think that practicing like this is a good idea? I think its a good thing since you give more individual attention to your patients.


Panel studies retainer care, practice trends
Physicians who have opted out of health insurance can offer new solutions, lawmakers say.
By Joel B. Finkelstein, AMNews staff. May 17, 2004.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Washington --"What will it take to get physicians excited about practicing medicine again?"

That was the question Sen. Robert F. Bennett (R, Utah) asked a panel of physicians testifying recently before the Joint Economic Committee. Their answer: Opting out of the mainstream, health insurance-oriented system of reimbursement.

Like these physician panelists, a seemingly growing number of physicians are eschewing insurers and Medicare in favor of cash payment and retainer practices, also called boutique practices.

The American Medical Association's Council on Ethical and Judicial Affairs last year determined that the trend is not necessarily a bad thing.

"Retainer practices provide an opportunity for patients to develop a more personalized relationship with their physician," said Council Chair Leonard Morse, MD, in an earlier statement. "But physicians should also make sure that all patients, including those who ... do not pay retainer fees, continue to receive the same quality of care."

The panel of doctors told lawmakers that retainer care allows them the freedom to practice the type of medicine they think most appropriate.

"If a practice is limited to 600 patients, such as in my current practice, then 12 hours a week, or even 18 hours, can be devoted to annual preventive exams, with adequate time still available for routine and urgent care," said Bernard Kaminetsky, MD, a Boca Raton, Fla., internist. By contrast, in a typical practice with 2,500 patients, just doing one-hour annual preventive exams would take 50 hours a week, 50 weeks a year, he said.

The physicians testified that they chose retainer care to avoid spending too much time with paperwork and too little with patients. Conventional practices end up charging uninsured patients more to cross-subsidize the high cost of administration for low-paying patients with private coverage and Medicare, the doctors said.

"The move to cash-based practices is concrete evidence of the atmosphere of fear and frustration in which doctors practice today," said Kathryn Serkes, policy and public affairs counsel for the Assn. of American Physicians and Surgeons. The group says thousands of doctors across the country are choosing this approach.

"Money is not the issue -- control is. More doctors would rather treat uninsured patients, possibly for free, than jump through insurance and government regulatory hoops," she said.

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:spam: +pissed+ I'm surprised no one has ever commented on this. I guess people don't like the idea given the response or lack thereof.
 
I think this is a great idea...I know many psychiatrists in my hometown that do something similar to this. They do fee for service. THey have patients pay by the hour. Someone also posted an article on the forums about a surgeon that had a fee for service practice. He charged a certain fee for a surgery (it wasn't plastics... more like lap choles) then the patient payed, and took the receipt and filed on their insurance to get reimbursed. This also saves us from having to do a ton of paperwork to get paid. I have a friend who is an FP, and he spends 1 hour at the end of every day filling out paperwork. My only question, is can this work for a regular FP or IM or pediatric office? I haven't heard any FP's doing anything like this.
 
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I think it's a pretty cool idea if you have a large enough patient base to cull from. I worked with a private practice ob/gyn who was strictly fee for service. He took care of lots of society ladies, and ran around with Denny Crum, and other local celebs. I watched him get 165 dollar checks about every ten minutes for a quick pap smear and breast exam. He took the entire fee up front and billed the insurance later. He then reimbursed the patient what the insurance paid. This way he was able to recoup his entire fee. Nice.
A FP I am with right now has a buddy who does true botique medicine. He charges around 4000 per person or so per year. For this, he is on call to the patients at all times, and the expense covers regualr checkups as well as routine labs (I think). He has around 300 patients, many pretty healthy. Do the math--4000 x 300= 1,200,000$$$$!!! :eek: He basically live a less stressful life, provides more complete care, spends MUCH more time per visit (read:less likely to be sued), and gets paid a king's ransom for doing something he loves. He wins, the patients win. Everybody's happy. Lucky. Maybe I will work in a fee for service ER someday....not.
 
USAF MD '05 said:
I think it's a pretty cool idea if you have a large enough patient base to cull from. I worked with a private practice ob/gyn who was strictly fee for service. He took care of lots of society ladies, and ran around with Denny Crum, and other local celebs. I watched him get 165 dollar checks about every ten minutes for a quick pap smear and breast exam. He took the entire fee up front and billed the insurance later. He then reimbursed the patient what the insurance paid. This way he was able to recoup his entire fee. Nice.
A FP I am with right now has a buddy who does true botique medicine. He charges around 4000 per person or so per year. For this, he is on call to the patients at all times, and the expense covers regualr checkups as well as routine labs (I think). He has around 300 patients, many pretty healthy. Do the math--4000 x 300= 1,200,000$$$$!!! :eek: He basically live a less stressful life, provides more complete care, spends MUCH more time per visit (read:less likely to be sued), and gets paid a king's ransom for doing something he loves. He wins, the patients win. Everybody's happy. Lucky. Maybe I will work in a fee for service ER someday....not.

$4000 a patient seems excessive. He definitely needs to be in a large area even with only 300 patients unless I am seriously underestimating the market and/or his marketing skills. Does he do Inpatient medicine or OB. With an avg of 3.5 (do not know where I read this) visits per patient a year he must have a crap load of free time. I was thinking somewhere in the $1K range with about 1K patients.
 
I think this is tempting but it defeats the very ethics and principles behind medicine. this is just my opinion. I have thought of practicing medicine like this but I couldn't in good conscience do it. I didn't become a doctor to serve wealthy people alone. I became a physician to serve people (rich or poor). I think this type of medicine is elitist and defies the very idea of what being a doctor is about. More power to those who can practice this form of medicine. I'm sure they are happy but i couldn't do this and feel good about myself. I couldn't do it even for a million dollars. If I was only about money, I would have become a corporate lawyer.
 
not that im planning on doing it myself, but from what i have heard of personal accounts,

many of the docs who do it, also do pro bono stuff, and it is a way at getting back at the insurance companies for giving doctors such a hassel to get paid at all.

i think in an ideal world, i would want to do something similar, though not to the extent of getting 4000 bucks from each patient, but man, something to get around the insurance companies and still help everyone sounds great. you know?

oh well... just thinking...
 
novacek88 said:
I think this is tempting but it defeats the very ethics and principles behind medicine. this is just my opinion. I have thought of practicing medicine like this but I couldn't in good conscience do it. I didn't become a doctor to serve wealthy people alone. I became a physician to serve people (rich or poor). I think this type of medicine is elitist and defies the very idea of what being a doctor is about. More power to those who can practice this form of medicine. I'm sure they are happy but i couldn't do this and feel good about myself. I couldn't do it even for a million dollars. If I was only about money, I would have become a corporate lawyer.

I think a good thing is to let all those unpoor patients you have subsidize the poor reimbursement that is often accompanied with medicaid & CHIP if applicable as well as the poor but widely acceptable reimbursement from HMOs, Medicare, PPOs, etc. I do not think $1000/year considers a person rich. Most people could afford it if they considered healthcare a basic necessity like they do Cable, Internet, TiVo, cars with bling bling and the like.
It reminds of a friend I used to have that opted out of health insurance with the company he worked for b/c he said he needed the money. He apparently had enough money to take vacations, get drunk a few times a week, and buy a new car. Then one day he was screwing around when he was drunk and broke his ankle. He goes to the ER with no insurance. They treat him. He then goes to a orthopod and tells them to bill him. He stiffed them all. Scumbag.
 
Perhaps you could run a split practice. Mornings are for the boutique patients and afternoons could be a "free and reduced" clinic time.
 
If I were to do something like this I would never charge 4000/person. Dang :eek: I would tell my patients to drop their insurance and get catastrophic health insurance only because everything I do for them would be included in the retainer. I would have ~600 patients and the retainer would be around $1000. $1000/12=$83.33 Add that to the catastrophic health insurance cost and you probably save a good bit of money. You obviously won't make 600k, but you would be quite comfortable, and your patients would love you.

I don't know enough about the business side of things to figure out if that would work. Someone with more experience could let me know if I'm full of crap.
 
If someone was to run a boutique practice of the sort, how would s/he take vacation time? I don't think you can put someone to cover you when it's a more personal service, with patients having your cellular, home and work number.
 
Geronimo said:
Perhaps you could run a split practice. Mornings are for the boutique patients and afternoons could be a "free and reduced" clinic time.

But isn't that what most people do anyway? I think most practices have patients that pay in cash and many others that are on various forms of insurance. If you have a busy practice, you will get a fair share of all type of patients.
 
OnMyWayThere said:
If someone was to run a boutique practice of the sort, how would s/he take vacation time? I don't think you can put someone to cover you when it's a more personal service, with patients having your cellular, home and work number.

Exactly, that is the other thing I don't like about it. When you practice boutique medicine, you are going to work for that money you charge them. Think about it. If I'm paying 2K each year to have personal physician, he or she better be around when I'm sick. I could care less about their vacation. You would make more money but you would also feel like their beeyatch too.

It's kind of like being a plastic surgeon. Yes, patients pay premium prices to have cosmetic surgery but then they are the most demanding and irritating. You will have to submit to their every whim because they just paid you a lot of money.

It's not that you are not providing patients the best service you can but when people pay a lot of money for something they tend to abuse their power and a little overdemanding. That is their right so you can't blame them but do you really want to be a rich butler?
 
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jpro said:
If I were to do something like this I would never charge 4000/person. Dang :eek: I would tell my patients to drop their insurance and get catastrophic health insurance only because everything I do for them would be included in the retainer. I would have ~600 patients and the retainer would be around $1000. $1000/12=$83.33 Add that to the catastrophic health insurance cost and you probably save a good bit of money. You obviously won't make 600k, but you would be quite comfortable, and your patients would love you.

I don't know enough about the business side of things to figure out if that would work. Someone with more experience could let me know if I'm full of crap.

I know some people who do and they love it. If you are okay with practicing this type of medicine then I think it's an excellent way to practice. I have never thought of myself as some moral do-gooder. I can't stand people who preach to others on their moral high horse. But for me personally, I couldn't practice this medicine. i know my life would be a lot more comfortable and I would be happier but I wouldn't feel like a doctor if you know what I mean.
 
i was thinking about the vacation issue that goes along with setting up a boutique practice. would it be possible to setup a boutique practice with another doctor in which the understanding is that either one of you will be available at any moment for the patient, thus, making it possible to have vacation time since your partner can cover you?
 
captbadass said:
i was thinking about the vacation issue that goes along with setting up a boutique practice. would it be possible to setup a boutique practice with another doctor in which the understanding is that either one of you will be available at any moment for the patient, thus, making it possible to have vacation time since your partner can cover you?
Of course it is possible, BUT you see... one of the sales pitches to get your patients into a boutique practice is that you are 1 on 1 with them.. they know YOU and YOU are their physician. You know everything about them - their work, stress levels, etc. I don't know how it would settle with someone paying you 4,000 a year and the patient has to see your partner. Just an idea. I'm sure it would work out, but it would be that much harder to keep the patient over the long term if you're not around (on an island enjoying their 4k). I would love to set something like this up, but also keep in mind that it's quite important to have a huge clientele to begin with and cut it down to 500 or so when you offer boutique type practice. Or else you have to have big money in the bank to cover overhead while you get people to sign up from scratch since there won't be enough income in the beginning stages of the practice. I have owned and operated a business and these are some things that I think you should consider from the business end... :thumbup:
 
It's a great Idea. I think since you will be making so much money, you should and could spend some time doing work at free community clinics. That would be fair. This way the people who can't affort medicine can get some well needed help. It's a win/win situation.

I would not charge 4000. I would charge 5000 per pt. and increase my service program. Or I would charge a range of 3500 to 6000 and give them options on the level of service they would get. House call v.s. same day office appointment.

You would need 2 docs to do this. When you take vacation, your partner can cover for you.

5000 average times 150 patients = 750,000 K. minus lets say 100000 overhead. 650,000 per year gross income is not bad. Not bad at all.

It's not for everyone. you have to be able to tolerate those patients who call all the time. But then again, it's only a phone call or a daily visit. Not bad for 650,000 per year.

EH.
 
erichaj said:
It's a great Idea. I think since you will be making so much money, you should and could spend some time doing work at free community clinics. That would be fair. This way the people who can't affort medicine can get some well needed help. It's a win/win situation.

I would not charge 4000. I would charge 5000 per pt. and increase my service program. Or I would charge a range of 3500 to 6000 and give them options on the level of service they would get. House call v.s. same day office appointment.

You would need 2 docs to do this. When you take vacation, your partner can cover for you.

5000 average times 150 patients = 750,000 K. minus lets say 100000 overhead. 650,000 per year gross income is not bad. Not bad at all.

It's not for everyone. you have to be able to tolerate those patients who call all the time. But then again, it's only a phone call or a daily visit. Not bad for 650,000 per year.

EH.

How about having only 1 pateint and charging them 750,000. ;)
 
You know what, people act entitled enough for their $20 co-pay, I can't imagine how insufferable some people would be if they paid me $2K or whatever per year. Like someone else said, you'll basically be their beeyatch.

The other night on call I got 15 minutes of rant from a family member who told me that it was "completely unacceptable" that we did not have a specific diagnosis and treatment plan 24 hours after a previously healthy woman collapsed and required intubation and pressors. When I tried to explain that, first of all, we HAD figured out what it was NOT, and that we had several working ideas about what it WAS, he was unimpressed and all but said, "I want my money back!" He kept using the term "completely unacceptable," as if he were talking to someone in his office who was late filing a report. I was really, really tempted to tell him to take it up with God, but I bit my tongue.

I just have this gut feeling that boutique practice would be full of people like that. No thanks. At least SOME of the people I see in clinic actually seem to appreciate what I'm doing. :p
 
mamadoc said:
You know what, people act entitled enough for their $20 co-pay, I can't imagine how insufferable some people would be if they paid me $2K or whatever per year. Like someone else said, you'll basically be their beeyatch.

The other night on call I got 15 minutes of rant from a family member who told me that it was "completely unacceptable" that we did not have a specific diagnosis and treatment plan 24 hours after a previously healthy woman collapsed and required intubation and pressors. When I tried to explain that, first of all, we HAD figured out what it was NOT, and that we had several working ideas about what it WAS, he was unimpressed and all but said, "I want my money back!" He kept using the term "completely unacceptable," as if he were talking to someone in his office who was late filing a report. I was really, really tempted to tell him to take it up with God, but I bit my tongue.

. :p

I've been tempted to tell them the same thing. Forget the $20.00 co-pay attitude. Try the grief you get from some patients when you're paying their bill. (Medicaid, etc.).
 
novacek88 said:
It's not that you are not providing patients the best service you can but when people pay a lot of money for something they tend to abuse their power and a little overdemanding.

Hmmm. This sounds surprising like my state Medicaid patients for which I my group is paid $9/month per patient, irregardless of how many times they are seen or call the answering service at night. At least with boutique medicine I would be compensated for my efforts.
 
Since there is thoughtful discussion on this thread about boutique medicine, perhaps there would be interest in my view as a potential patient. (My MD is making the switch now.)

I would need to pay an extra $4000 per year, and this would probably cover a maximum of 6 or 7 visits per year, mainly to check my cholesterol. So it would be about $600 per 20 minute visit. That means the MD will be bringing in about $2000 per hour or maybe $16,000 per day if I calculate correctly.

Another problem is the relationship with the MD. By switching to boutique medicine, I understand that the MD will be dropping about 1500 to 2000 patients with the idea of keeping 400 to 600 that will be more profitable than her previous 2000 to 2500 total practice. This means that as a patient I will be VERY, VERY unimportant to the MD. Basically, the MD will have a sea of 1500 to 2000 abandoned patients to chose from if I am too demanding. So I would be very reluctant to call her (the MD) or seek too many appointments. In any case, talking to a $16,000 per day MD about insignificant issues such as cholesterol doesn't make much sence--it would be unconfortable. Certainly I wouldn't be asking her for a physical exam to check for prostate cancer--there would just be too much of an income and status difference.

Now to situate myself in a income and social class sense, I guess I would have income in the $250,000 range with net worth in the $3,500,000 area. Although I have absolutely no information, I would guess that this would put me in the "homeless" or "charity patient" category from the MD's point of view.

From what I can imagine, a patient would need to have net worth in the $10 million (minimum) or better yet $50 million to $100 million to be of any interest to the MD. Therefore, only at this level of wealth would a patient start to have some negotiating power or credibily. Such a patient could invite his MD to a cocktail party or reception, for example, where the MD could attract more clients from the $50 million area, permitting her to eventually dump the $3 million to $5 million "dead enders" like me.

In any case, this is my view as a potential patient. I hope it is of some interest. Also, here is a final point--don't MDs take an oath to provide care for everyone including the poor? If so, wouldn't the boutique MD who is dumping the $3 million dead enders (not to mention the truly poor) be in violation of that oath?
stcol
 
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Wow...this is an old thread. ;)

Interesting to hear this from another perspective, although I'd certainly expect that many people would feel the way you do. "Boutique" medicine isn't for everyone, nor is it the answer to all of our nation's healthcare woes. Most of the doctors who have converted from traditional practices to "boutique" medicine have alienated a large number of patients. It's a lot easier if you start your practice from scratch. As for the fee, I've heard of fees ranging from as little as $500/year to in excess of $20,000/year...your doctor's is somewhere in the middle. The real question that patients have to ask themselves is whether or not this represents a good value. If the answer is "no," then you shouldn't sign on.

don't MDs take an oath to provide care for everyone including the poor? If so, wouldn't the boutique MD who is dumping the $3 million dead enders (not to mention the truly poor) be in violation of that oath?

No, we do not take an oath to care for "everyone." There are many who feel that any discrimination based on the ability to pay is inherently wrong, but it's always been done, and will likely continue to be in the future (many physicians do not accept Medicaid, for example, and many are increasingly limiting their Medicare panels due to poor reimbursement). The bottom line is that if doctors are better-compensated for the care that they do provide, most of them will be better able and more willing to provide free care for the poor. The problem with today's environment is that there's little "fat" left in the system to permit us to do the necessary cost-shifting.

Edit: Most of the people who are doing "boutique" medicine do have a certain number of patients in their panel who they see at reduced or waived fees, at least those I've read about.
 
Since there is thoughtful discussion on this thread about boutique medicine, perhaps there would be interest in my view as a potential patient. (My MD is making the switch now.)

I would need to pay an extra $4000 per year, and this would probably cover a maximum of 6 or 7 visits per year, mainly to check my cholesterol. So it would be about $600 per 20 minute visit. That means the MD will be bringing in about $2000 per hour or maybe $16,000 per day if I calculate correctly.

Another problem is the relationship with the MD. By switching to boutique medicine, I understand that the MD will be dropping about 1500 to 2000 patients with the idea of keeping 400 to 600 that will be more profitable than her previous 2000 to 2500 total practice. This means that as a patient I will be VERY, VERY unimportant to the MD. Basically, the MD will have a sea of 1500 to 2000 abandoned patients to chose from if I am too demanding. So I would be very reluctant to call her (the MD) or seek too many appointments. In any case, talking to a $16,000 per day MD about insignificant issues such as cholesterol doesn't make much sence--it would be unconfortable. Certainly I wouldn't be asking her for a physical exam to check for prostate cancer--there would just be too much of an income and status difference.

Now to situate myself in a income and social class sense, I guess I would have income in the $250,000 range with net worth in the $3,500,000 area. Although I have absolutely no information, I would guess that this would put me in the "homeless" or "charity patient" category from the MD's point of view.

From what I can imagine, a patient would need to have net worth in the $10 million (minimum) or better yet $50 million to $100 million to be of any interest to the MD. Therefore, only at this level of wealth would a patient start to have some negotiating power or credibily. Such a patient could invite his MD to a cocktail party or reception, for example, where the MD could attract more clients from the $50 million area, permitting her to eventually dump the $3 million to $5 million "dead enders" like me.

In any case, this is my view as a potential patient. I hope it is of some interest. Also, here is a final point--don't MDs take an oath to provide care for everyone including the poor? If so, wouldn't the boutique MD who is dumping the $3 million dead enders (not to mention the truly poor) be in violation of that oath?
stcol

Not understanding the "sea of patient he has to choose from if you are too demanding". Have you ever ran a small business?? You live and die by your reputation, if anything he has a huge incentive to keep you happy and healthy.

And no, no one takes an oath they will provide care to anyone, ever unless it mandated by law through an emergency room visit. Where people get this I have no idea.

Does Whole Foods have oath to give you food for free if you are hungry? Does Coca-Cola have an oath to give you soda for free if you are thirsty? Do the exotic dancers have an oath to....:laugh:

There is no oath, forget the oath. If there was one it wouldnt say "to let people live foreverrrrrr....for only 2 dollars."

I love this free lunch mentality, truly touching.
 
Stcol- I thought about it and I want free stuff too, how about forking over some of that hard (or not so hard) earned 3.5 million bucks?

Some of our SDN posters have school loans and are having a hard time making the payments AND eating 3 meals a day. The card board box they are living has some leaks too so we may have to fund some habitats for humanity. Its rough but I feel the "oath" the magical oath you speak of applies to everyone with money.:laugh:
 
Not understanding the "sea of patient he has to choose from if you are too demanding". Have you ever ran a small business?? You live and die by your reputation, if anything he has a huge incentive to keep you happy and healthy.

And no, no one takes an oath they will provide care to anyone, ever unless it mandated by law through an emergency room visit. Where people get this I have no idea.

Does Whole Foods have oath to give you food for free if you are hungry? Does Coca-Cola have an oath to give you soda for free if you are thirsty? Do the exotic dancers have an oath to....:laugh:

There is no oath, forget the oath. If there was one it wouldnt say "to let people live foreverrrrrr....for only 2 dollars."

I love this free lunch mentality, truly touching.

It has to do with that whole BS "doctors are public servants mentality"

Y'know, just like the police are obligated to help you if you're getting mugged.
 
I'll say it in a nicer way than LaDoc.

You can quote me...

It's hard for someone to care about someone else's problems when he has problems of his own.

Apply this to the physician-patient relationship. After years of torture (med school, undergrad, residency) and the insufferable loans (private and stafford) and the sacrifice of years spent studying about a subject that 90% of the people find geeky and 'uncool'..... you kinda want to have something that doesn't put you in total depression.... Having school loans to pay at age of 50 is a sick thing.
 
the MD will be bringing in about $2000 per hour or maybe $16,000 per day if I calculate correctly.

Just for the sake of argument, I checked your math. Here's one way to look at it:

500 patients x $4000 = $2,000,000 annually. Sounds good so far, right (if you're the doc)?

Remember, this is a retainer...not fee for service. Now, you haven't said what benefits are included in this retainer. Let's assume that one of the big benefits for patients is 24/7 access to their doctor (pretty typical for boutique practices), so your doc's now working or on-call all the time. Breaking that down, there are 8760 hours in a year, so (2,000,000 / 8760 = 228) your doctor is essentially charging around $228/hour total to take care of a panel of 500 people, or (228 / 500 = 0.45) roughly forty-five cents per patient, per hour. He's not going to get to keep all of that, since he'll have to cover his overhead, which averages 50-60% in most primary care practices. If he's billing insurance in addition to charging an annual retainer (again, you haven't said), that'll provide additional revenues.

Edit: There are probably other "goodies" included in that $4,000 per year aside from 24/7 access, or at least I would hope so. Again, every patient needs to ask themselves whether or not this represents a good value to them. For some, it may, and they don't necessarily have to be millionaires.
 
Just for the sake of argument, I checked your math. Here's one way to look at it:

500 patients x $4000 = $2,000,000 annually. Sounds good so far, right (if you're the doc)?

Remember, this is a retainer...not fee for service. Now, you haven't said what benefits are included in this retainer. Let's assume that one of the big benefits for patients is 24/7 access to their doctor (pretty typical for boutique practices), so your doc's now working or on-call all the time. Breaking that down, there are 8760 hours in a year, so (2,000,000 / 8760 = 228) your doctor is essentially charging around $228/hour total to take care of a panel of 500 people, or (228 / 500 = 0.45) roughly forty-five cents per patient, per hour. He's not going to get to keep all of that, since he'll have to cover his overhead, which averages 50-60% in most primary care practices. If he's billing insurance in addition to charging an annual retainer (again, you haven't said), that'll provide additional revenues.

Edit: There are probably other "goodies" included in that $4,000 per year aside from 24/7 access, or at least I would hope so. Again, every patient needs to ask themselves whether or not this represents a good value to them. For some, it may, and they don't necessarily have to be millionaires.

Are their families included in this? Lab work? Some basic tests? $4000 for just plain seeing a doc several times per year still sounds a lot to me. It probably includes some benefits.
 
Is this style of practice being practiced? and where? Now, out of the 4000 per head is the doc responsible for all the imaging, lab tests, etc, when needed by the patient out of this retainer so to speak?
 
Is this style of practice being practiced? and where? Now, out of the 4000 per head is the doc responsible for all the imaging, lab tests, etc, when needed by the patient out of this retainer so to speak?
 
Is this style of practice being practiced? and where? Now, out of the 4000 per head is the doc responsible for all the imaging, lab tests, etc, when needed by the patient out of this retainer so to speak?
 
Most retainer practices charge around 1800 per patient and give discounts for extras family members. Many times the whole family will be 4000 to 5000 dollars.

The practice model is limited to primary care only. Specialty care is not covered and it would be as if you were going to another doctor. Although they do help coordinate the care with the specialist much better.

I've seen them limit their practice anywhere from 50 patients to 1000.

MD2 limits their practice to 50 patients and charges anywhere from 12500 to 25000 dollars per patient.

Services included are based on the price one pays. It can be anywhere from same day appointment, and medication refill same day, same hour, to house calls and going to their specialist visit with the patient. Most will visit the patient in the hospital but won't manage their care in the hospital.

If it is a solo provider doing this, they usually state in the contract the number of days they will be on vacation or CME. Many will also limit the number of calls and emails. It is not a buffet.

If there are 2 docs they can help each other out with vacations etc.
Not every practice can have this type of care. The patient base has to fit the profile.

KentW posted something in here once about an administration fee. Like 10 dollars per month to cover emails, refills etc. There are practice that are starting to do this as well. They don't want to refuse care or lose their patient base so instead they charge 120 dollars per year per patient for better service. It still adds up. 120 x 3000 = 360K per year.
This Path won't get rid of the 40 patient per day problem but it might make it worth doing.

There are companies that evaluate your practice to see if it will be a good fit for any of these models of practice.

My opininon: It is going to happen much more especialy in primary care.

It will be harder in some specialties due to the nature of the cases.
 
It has to do with that whole BS "doctors are public servants mentality"

Y'know, just like the police are obligated to help you if you're getting mugged.

I missed the public service oath day in medical school. I also missed the day they were handing out the public checks to pay for school. Come to think of it, I also missed day they handed out the government public service pension contributions. Weird I know.

When Salliae Mae cuts me a break will be the day I cut my fellow Americans one. We can only dream that day will come.
 
Is this style of practice being practiced? and where? Now, out of the 4000 per head is the doc responsible for all the imaging, lab tests, etc, when needed by the patient out of this retainer so to speak?

Lots of options there, and it'll vary from practice to practice along with the retainer fee.

Here's a practice in my area that's doing it: http://www.premierphysiciancare.com/

Edit: This is what they offer, according to their web site (they also have a detailed "infomercial" that you can watch):

* A comprehensive annual physical examination by your personal doctor
* An individualized wellness plan for each patient
* A complete fitness evaluation at our Premier Health Club
* 24-hour access to our physicians, 365 days a year
* Guaranteed same day or next day appointments
* House calls, whenever medically necessary
* NO WAITING, on-time office visits
* Personal assistants to help you with appointments, test scheduling, and insurance
* Coordination care with specialists and follow up with you on the results of these visits
* Limited Membership to serve you better

I don't know what their fee is.
 
Since there is thoughtful discussion on this thread about boutique medicine, perhaps there would be interest in my view as a potential patient. (My MD is making the switch now.)

I would need to pay an extra $4000 per year, and this would probably cover a maximum of 6 or 7 visits per year, mainly to check my cholesterol. So it would be about $600 per 20 minute visit. That means the MD will be bringing in about $2000 per hour or maybe $16,000 per day if I calculate correctly.

Another problem is the relationship with the MD. By switching to boutique medicine, I understand that the MD will be dropping about 1500 to 2000 patients with the idea of keeping 400 to 600 that will be more profitable than her previous 2000 to 2500 total practice. This means that as a patient I will be VERY, VERY unimportant to the MD. Basically, the MD will have a sea of 1500 to 2000 abandoned patients to chose from if I am too demanding. So I would be very reluctant to call her (the MD) or seek too many appointments. In any case, talking to a $16,000 per day MD about insignificant issues such as cholesterol doesn't make much sence--it would be unconfortable. Certainly I wouldn't be asking her for a physical exam to check for prostate cancer--there would just be too much of an income and status difference.

Now to situate myself in a income and social class sense, I guess I would have income in the $250,000 range with net worth in the $3,500,000 area. Although I have absolutely no information, I would guess that this would put me in the "homeless" or "charity patient" category from the MD's point of view.

From what I can imagine, a patient would need to have net worth in the $10 million (minimum) or better yet $50 million to $100 million to be of any interest to the MD. Therefore, only at this level of wealth would a patient start to have some negotiating power or credibily. Such a patient could invite his MD to a cocktail party or reception, for example, where the MD could attract more clients from the $50 million area, permitting her to eventually dump the $3 million to $5 million "dead enders" like me.

In any case, this is my view as a potential patient. I hope it is of some interest. Also, here is a final point--don't MDs take an oath to provide care for everyone including the poor? If so, wouldn't the boutique MD who is dumping the $3 million dead enders (not to mention the truly poor) be in violation of that oath?
stcol

That was one confusing post. You have been studying for too long.

:confused: :sleep: :idea:
 
Since there is thoughtful discussion on this thread about boutique medicine, perhaps there would be interest in my view as a potential patient. (My MD is making the switch now.)

I would need to pay an extra $4000 per year, and this would probably cover a maximum of 6 or 7 visits per year, mainly to check my cholesterol. So it would be about $600 per 20 minute visit. That means the MD will be bringing in about $2000 per hour or maybe $16,000 per day if I calculate correctly.

stcol

I have to admit, your math is way off...

Lets say he has 60 patients total? Each paying $4000 per year? $240,000. NOW we are talking much fairer pay for someone seriously at your (and your family's) beck and call. Effectively on call 365 days a year.... but lets take out the 4 weeks off and 2 weeks CME... 323 days. Lets say most patients dont need to see the docs 2 day a week (very reasonable considering he is covering a very small number of people and people dont want to see docs in the weekends. If they do then they probably didnt need to see them the monday or something like that). So that's 5/7 of what we got and therefore effective work days is 231. Now lets calculate the rate... It's more like $43 per hour.... luckily I truly believe most patients dont need to see the docs. It's low rate but ITS ALL paid and wont go to collections!

How much do you pay for a premium for a family of 4? Like $400 a month? That's $4800 a year. Sure the premium covers medications and hospital... but hey... better quality of care costs money.... hence we say nothing in life is free... otherwise you might as well go see an NP or a PA... they usually charge a lot less of less quality (which may or may not be significant to you at this stage of your life.)
 
NOW that you have the effective working hours... NOW you can multiple the numbers they are making... So... lets say he has 60 patients total? Each paying $4000 per year? $240,000.

No...he's keeping 400-600 patients, according to the OP.

You really have to think outside the box with this retainer stuff. You can't try to equate the fee to an hourly rate, or anything related to fee-for-service. It's not fee-for-service. How much is your life and your health worth? For some people, that's what it boils down to. Look at the practice's link that I posted above, particularly their infomercial, and it'll make more sense.
 
No...he's keeping 400-600 patients, according to the OP.

You really have to think outside the box with this retainer stuff. You can't try to equate the fee to an hourly rate, or anything related to fee-for-service. It's not fee-for-service. How much is your life and your health worth? For some people, that's what it boils down to.

I edited my post while you were posting.. too fast for me Kent.
 
This type practice is about individuals who want quality, personalized, care in a comfortable atmosphere at a comfortable pace.

They want to be able to ask questions and not feel hurried along. They don't want the doctor to have one hand on the door and the other out the door while they are with them.

It's the difference between a 2 star hotel and a 5 star hotel. You get a room in both but you would rather be in the 5 star. BUT some people just want a room and thats ok too.

I can't tell you how many people complain about the lack of time with the doctor.

Do you want cable internet or dial up?

If I charge an extra 50 dollars per month from patients and keep only 1000 patients but promise them they will get the time they need with me and their messages will be answered on time and their specialist visits will be coordinated, what is wrong with that?

I get to see like 15 pts per day and they get more time with me.
 
What you're really buying when you sign on with a "boutique" practice is the doctor's time. Time costs money, and it's not being adequately reimbursed under most current insurance plans. If that ever changes, "boutique" practices will become less attractive to doctors and patients alike. I don't see that happening any time soon, however. If anything, I think we're going to see more doctors trying to find ways to break free of the stranglehold that insurance companies have on the doctor-patient relationship. "Boutique" practices are only one solution to the problem...there are others, but you have to be creative as well as careful to avoid running afoul of insurance and Medicare law. This has been discussed in previous threads.
 
Are their families included in this? Lab work? Some basic tests? $4000 for just plain seeing a doc several times per year still sounds a lot to me. It probably includes some benefits.

I was referring to a practice near Stanford University which is converting to "an exclusive concierge style practive." The cost is as follows--
$300/mo for an individual
$500/mo for a couple
$100/mo per high school or college age child.
You have to keep your existing health care plan (not HMO though)
The notification letter says, "For those on Medicare, covered services will still be billed to Medicare under their rules." The letter also says, if you are under an HMO, you will need to convert to a PPO, Medicare, or other insurance plan if you want to join our service."

The only benefits seem to be easier and longer appointments and access by cell phone. An annual physical may be included but it is hard to tell.

From what I can tell, the younger MDs in the practice have pretty much outstanding reputations for ability, character, etc (younger means age 35 to 50). The older MD seems to be an old time macho jerk, i.e. "I am the MD so I will tell you what you need" school of medicine.

Is it possible that the big bucks in the new concierge practice will go to the older jerk as head of the practice. Or will all the MDs share more or less equally?
 
The older MD seems to be an old time macho jerk, i.e. "I am the MD so I will tell you what you need" school of medicine.

Is it possible that the big bucks in the new concierge practice will go to the older jerk as head of the practice. Or will all the MDs share more or less equally?

The older older generation of docs are still living in the land of (I know what's good for you so you better listen)... these dinosaurs are a dying breed at this point. It's unfortunate but ever since the HMOs invaded, we started losing these people.... why do I think it's unfortunate? Because they are the ones that genuinely cared... yes you heard me say it... they were hardasses but they cared... it TICKED them off when you didn't do what you were supposed to do for the better of your heatlh and they were not afraid to show it and called jerks for it...

The newer breed are struggling to stay alive in this non-paying system riddled with lawsuits and lack of compensation, so they will be nice to you as long as you are paying. I wont accuse myself and my generation of not caring...because we all do... but listen to what i said before.

It's hard to care about the problems of the others when you have many problems of your own.

Apply this to the doctor/patient relationship and compensation for effort. And so the boutique medicine comes out....
 
I was referring to a practice near Stanford University which is converting to "an exclusive concierge style practive." The cost is as follows--
$300/mo for an individual
$500/mo for a couple
$100/mo per high school or college age child.
You have to keep your existing health care plan (not HMO though)
The notification letter says, "For those on Medicare, covered services will still be billed to Medicare under their rules." The letter also says, if you are under an HMO, you will need to convert to a PPO, Medicare, or other insurance plan if you want to join our service."

The only benefits seem to be easier and longer appointments and access by cell phone. An annual physical may be included but it is hard to tell.

From what I can tell, the younger MDs in the practice have pretty much outstanding reputations for ability, character, etc (younger means age 35 to 50). The older MD seems to be an old time macho jerk, i.e. "I am the MD so I will tell you what you need" school of medicine.

Is it possible that the big bucks in the new concierge practice will go to the older jerk as head of the practice. Or will all the MDs share more or less equally?

I doubt there is equal sharing. Big bucks usually flow towards the established practice owner, but you can inquire.

Also realize this probably an attempt to provide some increased capacity for FM in the Palo Alto area. NO ONE, especially not family docs wants to practice in Silicon Valley unless they have a high income wage earning spouse. Medicine in SV is zero sum game for most. I would put it near the bottom of desirable places to start a practice due to insanely high overhead, blistering corporate taxes that only huge companies like Apple and Cisco seem to avoid and massive government regulations put into place by bleeding heart San Fran leftists.

I would equate practicing medicine there to kids who post-college move to SF, get some crap office job and blow 100% of their income on rent, beer and partying. Not likely to attract intelligent, business minded long term physicians.
 
I was referring to a practice near Stanford University which is converting to "an exclusive concierge style practive." The cost is as follows--
$300/mo for an individual
$500/mo for a couple
$100/mo per high school or college age child.
You have to keep your existing health care plan (not HMO though)
The notification letter says, "For those on Medicare, covered services will still be billed to Medicare under their rules." The letter also says, if you are under an HMO, you will need to convert to a PPO, Medicare, or other insurance plan if you want to join our service."

The only benefits seem to be easier and longer appointments and access by cell phone. An annual physical may be included but it is hard to tell.

From what I can tell, the younger MDs in the practice have pretty much outstanding reputations for ability, character, etc (younger means age 35 to 50). The older MD seems to be an old time macho jerk, i.e. "I am the MD so I will tell you what you need" school of medicine.

Is it possible that the big bucks in the new concierge practice will go to the older jerk as head of the practice. Or will all the MDs share more or less equally?

So then what's the point of paying this $300/mo if you still have to keep your current PPO health insurance. I thought the whole point of this boutique medicine thing was that so doctors wouldn't have to worry about fighting with insurance companies. So, then this sounds to me like these doctors are trying to scam you if they are charging you a fee/month and also billing the insurance companies. Or maybe I'm not understanding something.
 
So then what's the point of paying this $300/mo if you still have to keep your current PPO health insurance. I thought the whole point of this boutique medicine thing was that so doctors wouldn't have to worry about fighting with insurance companies. So, then this sounds to me like these doctors are trying to scam you if they are charging you a fee/month and also billing the insurance companies. Or maybe I'm not understanding something.

This should help. The practice under discussion appears to fit the Model I definition:

There are three basic models that legitimately can be called concierge medical practices. Although they differ in their economic approaches, they all have two things in common: (i) in one way or another they change the way patients access the physician and (ii) they have fewer patients than traditional practices.

1. Model I: Periodic Fee for Enhanced or Preferred Access. The classic concierge medical practice is one in which the physician accepts an annual or other periodic fee in exchange for granting the patient special access to the physician. A practice might, for instance, require patients to pay $250 per month (or an annual payment of $3,000) for special or privileged access, such as freedom to call the physician's private phone or pager (day or night) or to make a contact via e-mail (and expect a timely response). Same day or no wait appointments, and even house calls, might be included in the special access package. Physicians in this model typically continue to accept insurance payments in the normal fashion and to participate in preferred provider organizations and other private insurance panels. While many of these practices try to include certain elements of medical care in their concierge packages, it is advisable (as explained below) that the special things for which the patient pays the concierge fee be limited to elements of access only and that no medical services be included.

Most practices using this model have transformed from traditional medical practices. Since the more access the concierge patient has to the physician the less time the physician has available to spend with other patients, something has to give, and that give is reflected in a considerable reduction of the physician's patient load, perhaps from as many as 3,000 patients in the traditional practice to 600 or fewer in the concierge model. How this patient load reduction is handled has significant legal, ethical, and social implications.

It is not difficult to see the appeal of this model to the overworked practitioner who perceives herself making too little money while being able to spend less and less time with each patient of a seemingly ever-expanding practice. The revenues generated by the concierge payments allow the physician to shrink her overall patient load while earning the same or even more income, and a reduced workload allows the physician to spend more time with patients and engage in wellness activities for which overworked physicians in the traditional office settings may have little time.

2. Model II: Periodic Fee for Access and Medical Services. The purest form of the classic concierge model is the practice that, in exchange for a set annual or other periodic fee, will not only provide enhanced or preferred access but also primary medical care as well.2 Although medical care is provided as part of the concierge fee, this model typically does not accept private insurance and does not participate in Medicare, leaving the patients to deal as best they can with their own insurance companies for the submission of claims for specific medical expenses. These practices typically recommend that patients maintain medical insurance to cover hospital bills, specialist care, and other medical services that the practice itself cannot provide.

This model is currently under considerable pressure from the Washington State Insurance Commission, the complaint being that a practice operating in this model is essentially acting as an insurance company. The theory is that the medical practice has agreed to provide all the primary medical care the patient needs during a set period of time in exchange for a fee, much like the payment of a medical insurance premium insures coverage of the patient's medical needs during the policy period. To counteract this argument, these practices often require the patient to deposit the concierge fee in a separate fund to which the patient continues to have access and over which she retains control. Only after a certain time has passed, a month for instance, will money be released from the fund to cover the period just ended. The practice then argues that the concierge fee is not paid for future medical services but for services already rendered.3

3. Model III: Per Visit Access Fee. A relatively new but growing variant of the concierge medicine concept is the per-visit fee. In this model the practice may or may not bill the patient's insurance company, but it requires the patient to pay a flat sum for the office visit, at the time of the visit, in addition to billing the patient (or an insurance company) for the medical services rendered during the visit. For instance, the practice might charge $150 per visit, payable in advance at the time of the visit, in addition to charging for the medical services rendered during the visit. The $150 gets the patient virtually immediate access to the physician and possibly other amenities, like a nurse or assistant arranging for other needed medical and laboratory appointments.

If it were not for the troublesome insurance issues (discussed below), this model is not much different than the pre-Medicare private pay-as-you-go medical office common in the middle of the last century. And the physician's patient load can be adjusted simply by adjusting the per-visit fee. If the physician has too many patients, she can simply increase the per-visit charge, and the market will eventually bring her to the desired patient load.

Source: http://www.wnj.com/Concierge_JRM.html
 
Promise them they will get the time they need with me and their messages will be answered on time and their specialist visits will be coordinated, what is wrong with that?

I'm not sure this is over the top "extra care".This is what I offer to my patients (with the caveat that I'm human and that other patients life threatening emergencies will take precedence over responding to their non emergent questions/ forms/ refills--I would presume this must happen even in conceirge medicine) and I don't charge an extra fee. Actually I'm probably well on my way to positioning myself to build conceirge type practice the only problem is probably 50% of my pediatric patients are Medicaid/Medicaid PPO so their parents aren't exactly in a position to pay extra fees.
 
I'm not sure this is over the top "extra care".This is what I offer to my patients (with the caveat that I'm human and that other patients life threatening emergencies will take precedence over responding to their non emergent questions/ forms/ refills--I would presume this must happen even in conceirge medicine) and I don't charge an extra fee. Actually I'm probably well on my way to positioning myself to build conceirge type practice the only problem is probably 50% of my pediatric patients are Medicaid/Medicaid PPO so their parents aren't exactly in a position to pay extra fees.

I have thought about this so much and I have to admit that parents of pediatric patients are the BEST customers for a conceirge type practice. Why? PPO is perfect cause you will get a side pay... Pediatric patients do get sick more often but it's usually not something that couldn't be easily handled. So if you are limiting the number of patients because you switched to Boutique style, then the patients with kids should not increase your work rate much...

It's really a good service to them and you... they are more willing to go into the conceirge deal because they wont need to go to the ER to get an antibiotic the 3 times the kid gets sick per year (unless you feel like it). You will get paid better for it cause you are taking the kids into the deal.
 
I was referring to a practice near Stanford University which is converting to "an exclusive concierge style practive." The cost is as follows--
$300/mo for an individual
$500/mo for a couple
$100/mo per high school or college age child.
You have to keep your existing health care plan (not HMO though)
The notification letter says, "For those on Medicare, covered services will still be billed to Medicare under their rules." The letter also says, if you are under an HMO, you will need to convert to a PPO, Medicare, or other insurance plan if you want to join our service."

The only benefits seem to be easier and longer appointments and access by cell phone. An annual physical may be included but it is hard to tell.

From what I can tell, the younger MDs in the practice have pretty much outstanding reputations for ability, character, etc (younger means age 35 to 50). The older MD seems to be an old time macho jerk, i.e. "I am the MD so I will tell you what you need" school of medicine.

Is it possible that the big bucks in the new concierge practice will go to the older jerk as head of the practice. Or will all the MDs share more or less equally?

I was just discussing this at dinner tonight.....I've been giving flu shots in this area for the last 4 weeks (I'm a pharmacist). I've been made aware of at least 4 practices (1 solo & 3 groups) in this specific area which are going this route....however, their prices are much higher - $3,000-$7,000 per year per person!!!! It seems dependent on the pts age & acuity - at least from what the pts tell me (I wonder why they would mislead me though...) None will bill insurance - that will be soley the pts choice. If there is not a justified drg...how would the pt submit a bill?

None - not one of the pts who have told me about this have signed on - and I've had this conversation with about 25 folks & they are really ticked off since some have been pts for decades, altho that shouldn't make any difference. There is no inherent loyalty or responsiblity on either side - pt or provider.

I gotta see what happens over time. I do know of one guy (fm) who did this in this area about 18 months ago. He finally left private practice to become a hospitalist solely.

The mix of these practices is interesting. Most of the physicians are nearing retirement age (I know 3 who are retiring soon since they are also pts of mine & we chat) - two groups have younger physicians, but many of these are women who choose not to work full time. Lab work & hospitalization is not included in these arrangements. The pts are very worried about who would see them if they need hospitalization.....so they are pursuing other physician groups. This is a big unsure area in the pts minds. To my knowledge....the offer is not open to the medicare, chronically ill pt.

Its amazing how much they tell me when they know I have no vested interest....I am asked for referrals all the time though...
 
I was just discussing this at dinner tonight.....I've been giving flu shots in this area for the last 4 weeks (I'm a pharmacist). I've been made aware of at least 4 practices (1 solo & 3 groups) in this specific area which are going this route....however, their prices are much higher - $3,000-$7,000 per year per person!!!! It seems dependent on the pts age & acuity - at least from what the pts tell me (I wonder why they would mislead me though...) None will bill insurance - that will be soley the pts choice. If there is not a justified drg...how would the pt submit a bill?

None - not one of the pts who have told me about this have signed on - and I've had this conversation with about 25 folks & they are really ticked off since some have been pts for decades, altho that shouldn't make any difference. There is no inherent loyalty or responsiblity on either side - pt or provider.

I gotta see what happens over time. I do know of one guy (fm) who did this in this area about 18 months ago. He finally left private practice to become a hospitalist solely.

The mix of these practices is interesting. Most of the physicians are nearing retirement age (I know 3 who are retiring soon since they are also pts of mine & we chat) - two groups have younger physicians, but many of these are women who choose not to work full time. Lab work & hospitalization is not included in these arrangements. The pts are very worried about who would see them if they need hospitalization.....so they are pursuing other physician groups. This is a big unsure area in the pts minds. To my knowledge....the offer is not open to the medicare, chronically ill pt.

Its amazing how much they tell me when they know I have no vested interest....I am asked for referrals all the time though...


Well unfortunatey, you will get the biased complainers because they can't afford it. If someone can afford it, usually they don't come up to you and complain. Further, the FM docs don't need nearly as many patients to fill their practice so a lot of these patients are being cut cause they cant pay and thus the raining complaints.

These guys are just starting this style... but the only weird thing is that they dont accept any insurance... if they would accept insurance then they can get away with billing the patients less per year because _some_ of the services will be paid by the insurance... Frankly, I see their point completely.. I mean who the heck wants to deal with the accounts payable insurance garbage. Why should the physician always be the one fighting with the insurance for the payment?

On the other hand, it sounds like they will give the patients the bill and have them deal with the insurance company themselves if the patients felt like it. Would you give the flu shots or work in a pharmacy if 70% of your time is unpaid? Didn't think so... Same should go for physicians.

Bottom line... both sides don't care... yes there is no loyalty when it comes to money.

GO BOTIQUE!:)
 
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