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militarymd

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  1. Attending Physician
This is a case I did a few years ago.

Lady in her early 30's. She has hx of PPCM....EF 10 to 15% with severe conduction abnormality and has AICD in place...function both as backup DDD pacer and defibrillator...although she reports no shocks in the year prior to the scheduled surgery.

Cardiology has her pretty well tuned up....only requires Lasix with dietary indiscretions or viral illnesses.

She is scheduled for nephrectomy for renal carcinoma.

What monitors would everyone want?
 
CARDIAC TRANSPLANT

if you do the case you have to carefully inform patient that she very well many not survive.. BUt the monitors to use are the works.. 5 lead ekg, spo2, NIBP plus invasive bp, bladder catheter, swan ganz catheter

major concerns fluid shifts.. and how her heart will tolerate the procedure.. and turn the aicd off preop and put some zol pads on her
 
You know, you guys are seriously making me think about anesthesia with all your awesome cases. I'm gonna have to think about it. Any helpful advice please PM me.
Lisa PA-C
applying MD 2006

redstorm said:
CARDIAC TRANSPLANT

if you do the case you have to carefully inform patient that she very well many not survive.. BUt the monitors to use are the works.. 5 lead ekg, spo2, NIBP plus invasive bp, bladder catheter, swan ganz catheter

major concerns fluid shifts.. and how her heart will tolerate the procedure.. and turn the aicd off preop and put some zol pads on her
 
redstorm said:
CARDIAC TRANSPLANT

if you do the case you have to carefully inform patient that she very well many not survive.. BUt the monitors to use are the works.. 5 lead ekg, spo2, NIBP plus invasive bp, bladder catheter, swan ganz catheter

major concerns fluid shifts.. and how her heart will tolerate the procedure.. and turn the aicd off preop and put some zol pads on her

You're right. Transplant was in her future, but I'm not sure of her chances of getting one because of her malignancy.

My planned monitors for her was exactly as you described.

My resident and I brought her into the OR and sedated her and started placing all her lines...R IJ was last.

My resident was an experienced CA-3, and when he went to find the R IJ with the 21 ga seeker needle, brownish green fluid was aspirated into the 3 cc syringe rathter than dark blood.

He said "WTF?"...then I said "WFT?"....followed by the surgeon saying "What have you done to my patient?"

OK now what?
 
redstorm said:
CARDIAC TRANSPLANT

if you do the case you have to carefully inform patient that she very well many not survive.. BUt the monitors to use are the works.. 5 lead ekg, spo2, NIBP plus invasive bp, bladder catheter, swan ganz catheter

major concerns fluid shifts.. and how her heart will tolerate the procedure.. and turn the aicd off preop and put some zol pads on her

Speaking of "le swan" do y'all have any tips for us nascent CA's on not just how to float em, but how to best interpret them. I believe I understand the fundamentals but I'm not confident in my capabilities in using them clinically.
 
Brownish green fluid.. Couldnt be the thoracic duct thats on the left

do you have a hemothorax.. assuming the patient is oxygenating well and the airway pressures are normal.. I mean it could be a pneumo.. who knows.. or a pleural effusion from metastatic renal cell ca// ???? more info is needed..


lets put it this way. .i would not doa AAA repair without a swan.. You are giving so much fluid and at some point you have to know whether or not you are putting the patient into failure.. I mean you can give 10 -15 liters or crystalloid and 6-7 units of blood. in those cases.. How the hell do you know whats going on with that much fluid without a swan.. It really guides your fluid management... If the blood pressure is LOW and PA pressures are high then you know what to do.. IF the blood pressure is low and the pa pressures are lo then its safe to give more fluid.. thats a simplistic summary but thats the jist of it..
 
That's an entire post by itself regarding the swan. Of all of the AAA's I did in residency we never used a swan. Forty of my pump cases were done with attendings who trained at Texas Heart and thus no swan for those cases either. For the AAA's, we'd set the vent rate and tidal volume, set our anesthetic at an optimum level for the patient, and put a piece of tape over the rate and TV control knobs labeled "Do not touch".

From the end tidal CO2, we could then determine if the CO was up or down and in combination with the CVP, urimeter, etc. make a judgement on hemodynamics. Also never had a problem with those patients and these were mostly VA disasters.
 
Not to ignore the question about PACs, but we should probably start a separate thread just about it. (We ultimately did this case without a SWAN)

The patient is kind of obese, but her neck was reasonably long. My resident is excellent, so I was almost 100% sure that he did not enter the R chest to draw back pleural fluid or an anomalous thoracic duct.

Patient was still awake at this point and did not have any new complaints.

The fluid was pretty dark and serous in consistency....did not look like lymph.


So what next?
 
What was the stage of the renal cell CA? Did she have known renal vein or IVC involvement preop?
 
asdash said:
What was the stage of the renal cell CA? Did she have known renal vein or IVC involvement preop?

Cancer was localized...hence the scheduled nephrectomy without plans for CPB in atrial resection of tumor. 🙂
 
Ah. Swing and a miss. 🙂


militarymd said:
Cancer was localized...hence the scheduled nephrectomy without plans for CPB in atrial resection of tumor. 🙂
 
militarymd said:
My resident was an experienced CA-3, and when he went to find the R IJ with the 21 ga seeker needle, brownish green fluid was aspirated into the 3 cc syringe rathter than dark blood.

I had never seen anything like it. The urologists had never seen anything like it. So I went next door and found a general surgeon who said it looked like we had aspirated a cyst of some sort from probably the thyroid gland.

He said to go ahead and send the fluid for cytology, gram stain, cell count.

We send the fluid, and proceed to place a LIJ cordis without difficulty, but then tried for the next 45 minutes to float a swan without success. My resident, then me, then the general surgeon....while the urologist tapped his foot impatiently.

Patient is still awake.

What would everyone do now?
 
I would get a stat chest film to find out whats going on.. when you say you couldnt float the swan do you mean you couldnt put it in the heart or was it going into the heart but not in the pA and staying in the RV.. IF it was in the rv i would just leave it there. IT can provide some information, but then again she has arrhythmogenic potential with the aicd and all so thats a tough call. YOu cant get it into the PA because its a big dilated heart and its coiling in the RV. thats whats going on..so I think i would keep plugging away until it went into the pA.. I personally wouldnt do the case w/o the swan.you are guessing the entire case without it..


UT southwestern.. I think the standard of care is to use a swan for a AAA repair.. unless you have some other way of ascertaining myocardial function besides blood pressure.. Thats a big case potential for ionotropes etc you need to know where you stand you cant be guessing. I think the swan helps you. you cant be afraid to use it..
 
and i dont give a **** about the urologist tapping his foot
 
militarymd said:
I had never seen anything like it. The urologists had never seen anything like it. So I went next door and found a general surgeon who said it looked like we had aspirated a cyst of some sort from probably the thyroid gland.

He said to go ahead and send the fluid for cytology, gram stain, cell count.

We send the fluid, and proceed to place a LIJ cordis without difficulty, but then tried for the next 45 minutes to float a swan without success. My resident, then me, then the general surgeon....while the urologist tapped his foot impatiently.

Patient is still awake.

What would everyone do now?

LIJ swans are a toughy because of the multiple curves in vessels. A left subclavian follows a little more of the natural curve of the swan and might be easier to put in.

However, since you had the LIJ sheath in, you could just transduce a CVP alone. Not ideal obviously, but most of our nephrectomies are not bloodbaths anyway.

Oh, and screw the urologist 😉
 
Justin4563 said:
UT southwestern.. I think the standard of care is to use a swan for a AAA repair.. unless you have some other way of ascertaining myocardial function besides blood pressure.. Thats a big case potential for ionotropes etc you need to know where you stand you cant be guessing. I think the swan helps you. you cant be afraid to use it..
Most of our AAA repairs are done swan-less. That seems to be the general trend overall, especially in private practice. We'd be much more likely to use it with a ruptured AAA, but an elective repair? Not likely any more.
 
how would you monitor the function of the heart without a swan on a triple a.. how do you defend not using a swan... I think the only defense is tee
 
Multiple attempts by 3 experienced physicians...never got RV tracing....My resident first, then me, then the general surgeon who also attends in the ICU with me.

So the options are keep trying until you get it...go without it...go a different approach and stick her again.

I stopped using SWANs in major blood baths about 4 years ago as long as the EF is >30% (arbitrary number) and as long as I could get one in during the case if I needed to.
 
redstorm said:
how would you monitor the function of the heart without a swan on a triple a.. how do you defend not using a swan... I think the only defense is tee


Myocardial failure as a cause of hypotension in the OR is extremely rare (not including cpb cases)....so you could argue there is no need to monitor function of the heart.
 
Justin4563 said:
I would get a stat chest film to find out whats going on.. when you say you couldnt float the swan do you mean you couldnt put it in the heart or was it going into the heart but not in the pA and staying in the RV.. IF it was in the rv i would just leave it there. IT can provide some information, but then again she has arrhythmogenic potential with the aicd and all so thats a tough call. YOu cant get it into the PA because its a big dilated heart and its coiling in the RV. thats whats going on..so I think i would keep plugging away until it went into the pA.. I personally wouldnt do the case w/o the swan.you are guessing the entire case without it..


UT southwestern.. I think the standard of care is to use a swan for a AAA repair.. unless you have some other way of ascertaining myocardial function besides blood pressure.. Thats a big case potential for ionotropes etc you need to know where you stand you cant be guessing. I think the swan helps you. you cant be afraid to use it..

A Swan is not standard of care that I know of. Definitely not afraid to use it. Just use other monitors and variables to calculate cardiac function and volume status. If you look at EtCO2, urimeter, respiratory variation on the A line, CVP, etc. it all adds up to the clinical picture. That being said, I've put in more than 200 PAC's in my residencies and I certainly like the extra variables to look at along with the infusion ports. Just don't absolutely have to have one to do any case.
 
I hate to be sarcastic.. but you can do a case without an ekg.. and look at the pulse oximeter wave form for perfusion and blood pressure to see if any ischemia is going on.. but why would you do a case without an ekg..

The swan gives you information that you normally have to guess at.. anormal Pulmonary artery pressure makes me less concerned about a failing ventricle when they clamp// The PAC is exquisitely sensitive with regards to the performance of the ventricles... how long will looking at the urine tell you about a failing ventricle.. and if you have a cvp in.. go the extra step and float the swan
 
As for monitors...


For those wanting a Swan, how exactly will this affect your mgmt? She has a poorly functioning heart in the first place, and with a history of PPCM her compliance is not going to be normal. If her compliance isn't normal, how are you going to translate these pressures into volume status? There is an argument for trending the data, but I would argue there are better tools.

Why not use a TEE? Especially if this Cordis isn't going well, seems like you could get the requisite information to manage the patient without irritating an already electircally-finiky RV. If you were still deadset on the Swan, would you use a pacing swan?

Taking the US one step further, I'd consider asking a radiologist to come US the neck. Can't be sure how extensive that first cyst was, or if it was infected. Is there any indication the IJ was violated? If so, concern for sepsis/seeding valves?

Mighty tired after moving, sure I overlooked some rather simple concepts, apologies if I dumb down this awesome thread.
 
Gator05 said:
For those wanting a Swan, how exactly will this affect your mgmt?


I wanted a Swan because I wanted to be able to measure cardiac output during a potentially LONG case....would affect whether I use an inotrope or vaspressor during hypotension.

Never got blood during cyst aspiration on the Right side.
 
VentdependenT said:
Speaking of "le swan" do y'all have any tips for us nascent CA's on not just how to float em, but how to best interpret them. I believe I understand the fundamentals but I'm not confident in my capabilities in using them clinically.

Good point, Vent, and you're not alone. A study a few years ago showed the MAJORITY of practicing physicians were not well versed in how to interpret PAC data. We'll have to make a thread of the basics of interpreting PAC data.
 
Justin4563 said:
I would get a stat chest film to find out whats going on.. when you say you couldnt float the swan do you mean you couldnt put it in the heart or was it going into the heart but not in the pA and staying in the RV.. IF it was in the rv i would just leave it there. IT can provide some information, but then again she has arrhythmogenic potential with the aicd and all so thats a tough call. YOu cant get it into the PA because its a big dilated heart and its coiling in the RV. thats whats going on..so I think i would keep plugging away until it went into the pA.. I personally wouldnt do the case w/o the swan.you are guessing the entire case without it..


UT southwestern.. I think the standard of care is to use a swan for a AAA repair.. unless you have some other way of ascertaining myocardial function besides blood pressure.. Thats a big case potential for ionotropes etc you need to know where you stand you cant be guessing. I think the swan helps you. you cant be afraid to use it..


I adamantly disagree- PAC placement is absolutely not standard of care for AAA repair. The only time I put them in for AAA is if the patient has SEVERE myocardial dysfunction or has exceedingly high pre-op pulmonary artey pressures.
Prospective data on PAC's impact on reducing morbidity/mortality is not as great as one would think, as I recall.
 
Anyways, while the general surgeon was trying to float the swan, I went and got a fluoroscopy unit, put some lead on, and floated the swan under fluoroscopic guidance...that took 30 seconds....I was kicking myself for trying that long before going to the next step.

It turns out that the pacing leads from her AICD was probably getting in the way of the swan....fluoro made it easy.

So, now we induce the patient, and intubate without difficulty.....and I'm walking out of the room (in typical attending fashion when working with CA-3s)...when my resident yells out for me to stay and that something wasn't right with her lungs.

Low compliance, low sats, decreased breath sounds on both sides. Tube in is right place...I can feel the cuff in the sternal notch. Patient isn't light, and there is no wheezing...suctioning of the ETT reveals nothing.

Now what?
 
militarymd said:
Anyways, while the general surgeon was trying to float the swan, I went and got a fluoroscopy unit, put some lead on, and floated the swan under fluoroscopic guidance...that took 30 seconds....I was kicking myself for trying that long before going to the next step.

It turns out that the pacing leads from her AICD was probably getting in the way of the swan....fluoro made it easy.

So, now we induce the patient, and intubate without difficulty.....and I'm walking out of the room (in typical attending fashion when working with CA-3s)...when my resident yells out for me to stay and that something wasn't right with her lungs.

Low compliance, low sats, decreased breath sounds on both sides. Tube in is right place...I can feel the cuff in the sternal notch. Patient isn't light, and there is no wheezing...suctioning of the ETT reveals nothing.

Now what?


HOOOOHHHHHHHHH.....Confuscius say stupid Ameddican doctor who jump to diagnosis veddy fast (me, on the last case) become Taco Bell Manaja...SOOOO,

do you have end tidal, and if so, is the flat upper portion angling up like an obstrucive pattern (bronchospasm?) Bronchospasm could be so severe that there is no wheezing, no end tidal at all, or very little, or no end tidal could mean very low or no cardiac output. Anaphylaxis from pre-op Abx? Air in the belly with resultant diaphragmatic intrusion upward affecting lung volumes?

Stupid Ameddican doctor requesting patients current ECG tracing, BP, HR, end tidal tracing...
 
Gator05 said:
As for monitors...


For those wanting a Swan, how exactly will this affect your mgmt? She has a poorly functioning heart in the first place, and with a history of PPCM her compliance is not going to be normal. If her compliance isn't normal, how are you going to translate these pressures into volume status? There is an argument for trending the data, but I would argue there are better tools.

Why not use a TEE? Especially if this Cordis isn't going well, seems like you could get the requisite information to manage the patient without irritating an already electircally-finiky RV. If you were still deadset on the Swan, would you use a pacing swan?

Taking the US one step further, I'd consider asking a radiologist to come US the neck. Can't be sure how extensive that first cyst was, or if it was infected. Is there any indication the IJ was violated? If so, concern for sepsis/seeding valves?

Mighty tired after moving, sure I overlooked some rather simple concepts, apologies if I dumb down this awesome thread.

thats why you place the swan because she has a bad heart not to find out whether she has a bad heart or not.
Basic premise once again:: If the PA pressures go up the ionotropy of the heart is declining..thats the general rule of thumb.. so thats how its going to help me.. If the blood pressure falls.. as it does so often in a AAA.. HOw do you know what to do? do you guess.>?

and jet.. i th ink it is the standard of care.. that or tee.. you have to be monitoring to performance of the heart in a aaa.
 
Justin4563 said:
thats why you place the swan because she has a bad heart not to find out whether she has a bad heart or not.
Basic premise once again:: If the PA pressures go up the ionotropy of the heart is declining..thats the general rule of thumb.. so thats how its going to help me.. If the blood pressure falls.. as it does so often in a AAA.. HOw do you know what to do? do you guess.>?

and jet.. i th ink it is the standard of care.. that or tee.. you have to be monitoring to performance of the heart in a aaa.

Careful here, Dude. Standard of care is an entity that if you fall below it, you bring out your insurance companies paycheck. I'd venture to say that most AAAs in this country are done without SWANS. There is no literature anywhere that says one has fallen below the standard of care if you decide not to place a swan in an AAA repair.
 
jetproppilot said:
Careful here, Dude. Standard of care is an entity that if you fall below it, you bring out your insurance companies paycheck. I'd venture to say that most AAAs in this country are done without SWANS. There is no literature anywhere that says one has fallen below the standard of care if you decide not to place a swan in an AAA repair.
Agree 100% - and private practice is significantly different than academic practice and residency.
 
PAC is definitely NOT standard of care in any type of surgery. Read any and all of the ASA guidlines/statements on monitoring.

The Swan is only/ever listed as a monitor to "consider using"
 
jetproppilot said:
do you have end tidal, and if so, is the flat upper portion angling up like an obstrucive pattern (bronchospasm?) Bronchospasm could be so severe that there is no wheezing, no end tidal at all, or very little, or no end tidal could mean very low or no cardiac output. Anaphylaxis from pre-op Abx? Air in the belly with resultant diaphragmatic intrusion upward affecting lung volumes?

Stupid Ameddican doctor requesting patients current ECG tracing, BP, HR, end tidal tracing...

I don't remember what the shape was, but there was definitely end-tidal CO2, but the lungs just felt really small when we hand ventilated.

ECG was the patients usually crappy wide complex pattern. BP was normal (100/80)...HR was 80 to 90. Sats were in the low to mid 90's on 100% FIO2

The team (myself, resident, urologist, general surgeon) was scratching our collective heads at this point trying to decide what to do.....proceed with surgery, cancel, or try to figure out how to make patient better.
 
Would you have run off a stat gas to check out discrepancy between PetCO2 and PaCO2, Ph status, just how cruddy the PaO2 is? Could be a usefull adjunct in terms of whats going on the lungs. PE (cancer being thrombogenic + blood pooling in those fat hypokinetic ventricles) or pulmonary edema (poopy EF) with atelectasis thrown in....although the swan should display the latter. Good stuff. I'm intrigued.
 
infection around the lead wires
 
militarymd said:
I don't remember what the shape was, but there was definitely end-tidal CO2, but the lungs just felt really small when we hand ventilated.

ECG was the patients usually crappy wide complex pattern. BP was normal (100/80)...HR was 80 to 90. Sats were in the low to mid 90's on 100% FIO2

The team (myself, resident, urologist, general surgeon) was scratching our collective heads at this point trying to decide what to do.....proceed with surgery, cancel, or try to figure out how to make patient better.

Alright. I don't know whats going on yet, but I know I'm not gonna do the case until we get this ironed out. Going forward with a huge case with an ASA IV looking like death warmed over before the case starts is bad karma. SO, lets see if we can figure out whats going on so we can fix it. Start simple.
Make sure the pulse ox is on the finger correctly. Go through all the endotracheal tube stuff to make sure theres no mucous plug, right mainstem intubation, etc. I'd give a buncha albuterol puffs at this point just for kicks. Does she have a pulmonary embolus? What is her huge A-a gradient from? Sounds like you're delivering the O2 so maybe a problem at the alveolar-capillary membrane level...pulmonary edema from cardiac failure? Intrapulmonary shunt from an embolus? What are her PAC numbers? CO? CI? PAPs? SVR? SVO2?
If nothing pans out from all the above, I'd put in a TEE to assess left and right ventricular function, atrial sizes, pulmonary vasculature, valvular motility, etc.

There. Now I feel more flea-like as I've ordered a million studies and I'll rule out EVERYTHING. :laugh:
 
jetproppilot said:
Alright. I don't know whats going on yet, but I know I'm not gonna do the case until we get this ironed out. Going forward with a huge case with an ASA IV looking like death warmed over before the case starts is bad karma. SO, lets see if we can figure out whats going on so we can fix it. Start simple.
Make sure the pulse ox is on the finger correctly. Go through all the endotracheal tube stuff to make sure theres no mucous plug, right mainstem intubation, etc. I'd give a buncha albuterol puffs at this point just for kicks. Does she have a pulmonary embolus? What is her huge A-a gradient from? Sounds like you're delivering the O2 so maybe a problem at the alveolar-capillary membrane level...pulmonary edema from cardiac failure? Intrapulmonary shunt from an embolus? What are her PAC numbers? CO? CI? PAPs? SVR? SVO2?
If nothing pans out from all the above, I'd put in a TEE to assess left and right ventricular function, atrial sizes, pulmonary vasculature, valvular motility, etc.

There. Now I feel more flea-like as I've ordered a million studies and I'll rule out EVERYTHING. :laugh:

Also get a quick CXR to rule out pneumo since you guys were sticking the neck.
 
Justin4563 said:
thats why you place the swan because she has a bad heart not to find out whether she has a bad heart or not.
Basic premise once again:: If the PA pressures go up the ionotropy of the heart is declining..thats the general rule of thumb.. so thats how its going to help me.. If the blood pressure falls.. as it does so often in a AAA.. HOw do you know what to do? do you guess.>?

and jet.. i th ink it is the standard of care.. that or tee.. you have to be monitoring to performance of the heart in a aaa.


Justin, I understand of this. But when you see the PA pressure increase, what you've seen is the PA pressure increase, and nothing more. We pretend that pressure=volume, but it doesn't, especially in this sick (and stiff) heart. With that said...

Using central venous pulse oximetry, and/or continuos cardiac output, makes a bit more sense. However, CCO relies on a stable RR interval which this patient may not have with her h/o arrythmia (especially with the Swan tickling her already sensitive RV). (Our central venous pulse oximeters rely on a probe in the PA anyway, I think.)

This patient is already going to have elevated PA pressures, and so how will you discern what is "too high" for her with a standard Swan? When her BP drops, what then will be the PA pressure at which you act?
 
gator,

I dont know how else to get a cco unless you have a pa catheter in..

mixed venous oximetry or sampling is important as well..


I dont know.. I consistently place swans in my triple a's I do cases alone.. i dont have a resident so i have to be prepared.. the only ones i dont do it is if they do it through the groin or if the surgeon has consistently shown me that he or she is exceptional and the clamp time is reasonable short..
 
jetproppilot said:
Also get a quick CXR to rule out pneumo since you guys were sticking the neck.

Bingo! We did that first.

PA numbers were reasonable....don't remember what they were though.
 
militarymd said:
Bingo! We did that first.

PA numbers were reasonable....don't remember what they were though.


DUDE, WTF? WHERE DID YOU DREDGE UP THIS CXR, FROM THE BURNING GATES OF HELL? Anyway, let me go into eloquently verbose radiologist mode...

"Hello transcriptionist lady, this is Dr Gern Blanston dictating a reading of a portable CXR on patient Gunna Dy Sune, medical record number 867-5309, dated 28 June 2005. This portable chest has adequate penetrance.
An AICD device is visualized and appears to be appropriately positioned. A SWAN-GANZ catheter is also visualized and is appropriately placed in pulmonary zone-two. My eyes are immediately drawn to the utter chaos enveloping this poor patient's chest x-ray. The right upper lung lobe is clearly delineated and is totally whited out, as is the entire left lower lobe, leaving this patient's respiration totally dependent on essentially one lung total. How she is even taking a breath at this point is unknown to me. Also of significance is the widened mediastinum. Alarm bells are going off in my radiologist head with thoughts of impending dissecting aortic aneurysm, but clinical correlation is required. Back to the whited out areas, consider infectious consolidation, excess parenchymal fluid from, but not limited to cardiogenic failure, right mainstem intubation distal to the right upper lobe bronchus, and aspiration of a Taco Bell Mexican Pizza, the latter being an extreme longshot, but I take no responsibility for this reading and clinical correlation is required...." :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

(laughter at this point is a given, but you'd be amazed at how many readings of x-rays come very similar to this...)

Alright...shes got major pulmonary *hit going on here with a weird rhoentgenographic distribution...RUL and LLL whited out...don't think this is peri-operative related, but pull your ETT back a cuppla centimeters and see if she clinically improves..not an aspiration distribution...multilobular infectious pneumonia? Does she have a fever? Increased WBC? Immunosuppression?

No evidence of pneumothoraces...atelectasis? Give her several 1000 mL breaths...

Hard to believe tenacious mucous plugs could cause the "burning in hell" CXR appearance...

OK. If it doesnt resolve with the simple crap I listed, I'm cancelling the case, waking her up, and consulting Military. She may need the operation, but not today, considering her major pulmonary pathology.

I'm gonna go do an ASA 1 knee scope now....
 
This is the actual CXR that we took in the OR. Her preop film was fairly normal, other than cardiomegaly.

As you can see, the general surgeon actually put in a chest tube for that right upper lobe collapse....I disagreed, but he insisted, and the urologist agreed to it.

All that badness developed after intubation. After the film, I bronched her to look for any gross airway abnormalities (anomalous rul takeoff, huge plug, etc.) I found nothing.

At this point (1000 am still working on the patient for a 730 start), everyone wanted to cancel the case.

I took her to the unit, woke her up, treated her with aggressive pulmonary toilet, and extubated the next day.

Here is what happens next. A week later, cytology from the greenish-brown fluid aspiration shows malignant cells!!! She has a second primary 😱

She is scheduled to come back for a combined neck dissection/nephrectomy!!!

No kidding...this is a real case.....

Any thoughts on how to do the combined case? Anyone?

This time, you will have no access to the neck because of the surgical site.
 
militarymd said:
This is the actual CXR that we took in the OR. Her preop film was fairly normal, other than cardiomegaly.

As you can see, the general surgeon actually put in a chest tube for that right upper lobe collapse....I disagreed, but he insisted, and the urologist agreed to it.

All that badness developed after intubation. After the film, I bronched her to look for any gross airway abnormalities (anomalous rul takeoff, huge plug, etc.) I found nothing.

At this point (1000 am still working on the patient for a 730 start), everyone wanted to cancel the case.

I took her to the unit, woke her up, treated her with aggressive pulmonary toilet, and extubated the next day.

Here is what happens next. A week later, cytology from the greenish-brown fluid aspiration shows malignant cells!!! She has a second primary 😱

She is scheduled to come back for a combined neck dissection/nephrectomy!!!

No kidding...this is a real case.....

Any thoughts on how to do the combined case? Anyone?

This time, you will have no access to the neck because of the surgical site.

What was the etiology of the pulmonary whited out areas, and why did they develop after induction? Are they resolved? I wouldnt put her to sleep again until this issue is resolved. Too risky. There is a big possibility she won't survive the surgery, which is 6 hours minimum with deft surgeons (taking into consideration repositioning, down time between procedures, etc), if pulmonary sequelae develop again like they did the first time. There needs to be a cool off period before the huge multi-procedure is done, i.e. chest tube out, pulmonary sequelae resolved, etc.

Anyway, I know you already know all this stuff, but since you asked, heres how I'd do it, assuming the above is accomplished:

1) A-line
2)subclavian 9.0 cordis with PAC. If the subclav is impossible for some reason, I'd do a femoral (which I hate). Doing this case without central venous access is asking for trouble.
3) Standard ASA IV induction. I'd personally achieve somnulence with midazolam, then induce with etomidate, a little sufentanil, and pancuronium (assuming her airway was OK the first time), since her cardiac output is no doubt somewhat rate dependent secondary to poor myocardial compliance, and pancuronium will obviously help you achieve this.
If she tolerated that well, I'd front load with a ton of sufentanil, say 10ug/kg, and use the opiod as a primary part of the anesthetic, effectively minimizing the need for alot of myocardial depressant volatile anesthetic. Then crack a MAC-awake dose of desflurane/sevoflurane.
4)Meticulous temperature maintenance, BAIR Hugger an absolute must (lower body if you have to), fluid warmer for the inevitable transfusion of PRBCS and whatever else you need. Hypothermic induced coagulopathy is something to be avoided in this case.
5) Meticulous urine output observation. At the smallest hint of oliguria, start dopamine 2ug/kg/min
6) Keep her HCT optimized at minimum 28-30
7) Frequent (every hour) blood draws from the A-line for:
a)ABG: an abnormal pH could start a downward spiral. Q hour ABGs will prevent you from missing developing metabolic acidosis, and you can make sure oxygenation and ventilation are kosher.
b)Hb, HCT, platelets: not necessary during the neck part, but if the nephrectomy starts to develop blood loss, you'll be on top of it.
8) Beware of hemodilutionary thrombocytopenia, as it is one of the primary causes of thrombocytopenia in a case requiring alot of crystalloid.
9) A BIS monitor will aid you in depth of anesthesia since this will be a long case.
10) CaCl 1 gram for every four units of transfused PRBCs
11) Since she's such a sick puppy, I'd wanna see a pre-op phosphate level since low phos can contribute to pulmonary failure which is the last thing she needs. If its low pre-op, optimize it.
12) Prevent coagulopathy by being aggressive- be on top of PT, PTT, platelet count, and fibrinogen levels, and transfuse appropriate products for abnormal lab values.
13) Don't extubate her at the end of the case.
 
militarymd said:
This is the actual CXR that we took in the OR. Her preop film was fairly normal, other than cardiomegaly.

As you can see, the general surgeon actually put in a chest tube for that right upper lobe collapse....I disagreed, but he insisted, and the urologist agreed to it.

All that badness developed after intubation. After the film, I bronched her to look for any gross airway abnormalities (anomalous rul takeoff, huge plug, etc.) I found nothing.

At this point (1000 am still working on the patient for a 730 start), everyone wanted to cancel the case.

I took her to the unit, woke her up, treated her with aggressive pulmonary toilet, and extubated the next day.

Here is what happens next. A week later, cytology from the greenish-brown fluid aspiration shows malignant cells!!! She has a second primary 😱

She is scheduled to come back for a combined neck dissection/nephrectomy!!!

No kidding...this is a real case.....

Any thoughts on how to do the combined case? Anyone?

This time, you will have no access to the neck because of the surgical site.
Now to the hemodynamic part of the case:

1)Place a CCO SWAN with SVO2 capability. Maintain CCI of 2 minimum, keep her SVR around 800, and keep SVO2 at 70 minimum. AT the first hint of a falling SVO2, make sure your Hb is optimized, and if it is, increase her cardiac output, preferably with dobutamine, which will keep her heart rate high (of course you dont want it too high since tachycardia is a primary determinant of myocardial oxygen consumption, and too high of a heart rate can lead to myocardial ischemia) while concominantly keeping SVR at low-normal.
2) 5-lead EKG, although if shes got a wide complex to begin with, developing ST changes will be difficult to discern.
3) Consider a phosphodiesterase inhibitor for rising PA pressures, since it'll help the PAPs while concominantly helping with cardiac output, assuming pt is caught up on blood and volume, and hypotension from intra-operative blood loss is not an acute issue.
 
Never figured out why she collapsed her RUL. Consult pulmonary...and they scratched their heads. The CXR did clear by the next day. She has something wrong with her lungs, but no one seem able to figure it out.

One thing good that came out of our flail was that we found out that she tolerated volatile anesthesia well despite her low EF. She did not become hypotensive on induction, and did not become hypotensive during the period of time when we were flailing with here lungs. CO numbers were acceptable and stable.....but I don't remember her numbers, but it was something that kind of surprised everyone.

When she came back...I was on call (come in late on call), so one of my partners got stuck with her. He put a groin cordis in, and he did not put in a SWAN based on my report of good CO during volatile anesthesia....I thought that was kind of a gamble. He had trouble with her lungs also...he intubate quickly after induction, and applied PEEP immediately....to help keep things open, but her compliance was crappy throughout the case.

I came in on call at 1530....the case finished up around 1700...he stayed to finish it....I offered to take over, but he wanted to finish....patient actually did very well and was extubated at the end of the case.....I thought that was probably not a good idea, but she did fine.
 
jetproppilot said:
What was the etiology of the pulmonary whited out areas, and why did they develop after induction? Are they resolved? I wouldnt put her to sleep again until this issue is resolved. Too risky. There is a big possibility she won't survive the surgery, which is 6 hours minimum with deft surgeons (taking into consideration repositioning, down time between procedures, etc), if pulmonary sequelae develop again like they did the first time. There needs to be a cool off period before the huge multi-procedure is done, i.e. chest tube out, pulmonary sequelae resolved, etc.

Anyway, I know you already know all this stuff, but since you asked, heres how I'd do it, assuming the above is accomplished:

1) A-line
2)subclavian 9.0 cordis with PAC. If the subclav is impossible for some reason, I'd do a femoral (which I hate). Doing this case without central venous access is asking for trouble.
3) Standard ASA IV induction. I'd personally achieve somnulence with midazolam, then induce with etomidate, a little sufentanil, and pancuronium (assuming her airway was OK the first time), since her cardiac output is no doubt somewhat rate dependent secondary to poor myocardial compliance, and pancuronium will obviously help you achieve this.
If she tolerated that well, I'd front load with a ton of sufentanil, say 10ug/kg, and use the opiod as a primary part of the anesthetic, effectively minimizing the need for alot of myocardial depressant volatile anesthetic. Then crack a MAC-awake dose of desflurane/sevoflurane.
4)Meticulous temperature maintenance, BAIR Hugger an absolute must (lower body if you have to), fluid warmer for the inevitable transfusion of PRBCS and whatever else you need. Hypothermic induced coagulopathy is something to be avoided in this case.
5) Meticulous urine output observation. At the smallest hint of oliguria, start dopamine 2ug/kg/min
6) Keep her HCT optimized at minimum 28-30
7) Frequent (every hour) blood draws from the A-line for:
a)ABG: an abnormal pH could start a downward spiral. Q hour ABGs will prevent you from missing developing metabolic acidosis, and you can make sure oxygenation and ventilation are kosher.
b)Hb, HCT, platelets: not necessary during the neck part, but if the nephrectomy starts to develop blood loss, you'll be on top of it.
8) Beware of hemodilutionary thrombocytopenia, as it is one of the primary causes of thrombocytopenia in a case requiring alot of crystalloid.
9) A BIS monitor will aid you in depth of anesthesia since this will be a long case.
10) CaCl 1 gram for every four units of transfused PRBCs
11) Since she's such a sick puppy, I'd wanna see a pre-op phosphate level since low phos can contribute to pulmonary failure which is the last thing she needs. If its low pre-op, optimize it.
12) Prevent coagulopathy by being aggressive- be on top of PT, PTT, platelet count, and fibrinogen levels, and transfuse appropriate products for abnormal lab values.
13) Don't extubate her at the end of the case.

UH OH! 😱 I made a mistake. In 8), I spoke of dilutionary thrombocytopenia, and I meant to write DILUTIONARY FIBRINOGENEMIA. SO, beware of coagulopathy from DILUTIONARY FIBRINOGENEMIA. Sorry.
 
militarymd said:
Never figured out why she collapsed her RUL. Consult pulmonary...and they scratched their heads. The CXR did clear by the next day. She has something wrong with her lungs, but no one seem able to figure it out.

One thing good that came out of our flail was that we found out that she tolerated volatile anesthesia well despite her low EF. She did not become hypotensive on induction, and did not become hypotensive during the period of time when we were flailing with here lungs. CO numbers were acceptable and stable.....but I don't remember her numbers, but it was something that kind of surprised everyone.

When she came back...I was on call (come in late on call), so one of my partners got stuck with her. He put a groin cordis in, and he did not put in a SWAN based on my report of good CO during volatile anesthesia....I thought that was kind of a gamble. He had trouble with her lungs also...he intubate quickly after induction, and applied PEEP immediately....to help keep things open, but her compliance was crappy throughout the case.

I came in on call at 1530....the case finished up around 1700...he stayed to finish it....I offered to take over, but he wanted to finish....patient actually did very well and was extubated at the end of the case.....I thought that was probably not a good idea, but she did fine.

Alls well that ends well. Thanks for the cerebral stimulation, Chi. 👍 👍
 
There is nothing that a generic lipitor can't fix. Feel free to try it and experience your health take a turn to the best.
 
lol. thank god for pharmaceutical bots.


I read this entire thread (great case btw) to find it was bumped by the above.

PS:

VentdependenT said:
Speaking of "le swan" do y'all have any tips for us nascent CA's on not just how to float em, but how to best interpret them. I believe I understand the fundamentals but I'm not confident in my capabilities in using them clinically.


you've come a long way, huh?
 
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