MD/PhD in 5-6 years

Online Graduate Programs in Medical Human Anatomy
This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
mercaptovizadeh

mercaptovizadeh

ἐδάκρυσεν ὁ Ἰησοῦς
15+ Year Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2004
Messages
6,894
Reaction score
2,398
Members don't see this ad.
Is it possible? I heard of a professor who completed her MD/PhD in 5 years at VCU. Do schools have a time minimum, or do you just have to complete a certain set of tasks in any amount of time. I am not really looking forward to 8 years.
 
Possible? Yes. Likely? Hell no!

To complete both the MD and the PhD requirements in 5 years:

1. Her PhD would pretty much have to have been completed already
2. Her PhD program let her take some severe shortcuts
3. Her MD program let her take some severe shortcuts

In addition to one or more of the above, a lot of luck AND hardwork (no "or" operator here) would also be needed.

The courseload alone for the PhD program makes it hard to graduate in 6 years, much less 5. Again, you have to very lucky and very hardworking. Your project has to use techniques that yield results quickly. If you had to make your own KO mouse... well, it's going take longer than if you can use bacteria which grow in a day.

I would think most, if not all MSTP's encourage quick completion since it benefits everyone. I don't know of any "time minimum", but most caps are on how long you can stay.

-X

mercaptovizadeh said:
Is it possible? I heard of a professor who completed her MD/PhD in 5 years at VCU. Do schools have a time minimum, or do you just have to complete a certain set of tasks in any amount of time. I am not really looking forward to 8 years.
Click to expand...
 
VCU does not include the traditional 4th year of the medical education in their program. You dont get that second year of rotations essentially; this along with doing work in possibly a biochem based discipline (which seems to average about 3-4 years to complete by the looks and sound of it), and being tenacious and lucky would all add to a 5 year MD/PhD program.



xanthines said:
Possible? Yes. Likely? Hell no!

To complete both the MD and the PhD requirements in 5 years:

1. Her PhD would pretty much have to have been completed already
2. Her PhD program let her take some severe shortcuts
3. Her MD program let her take some severe shortcuts

In addition to one or more of the above, a lot of luck AND hardwork (no "or" operator here) would also be needed.

The courseload alone for the PhD program makes it hard to graduate in 6 years, much less 5. Again, you have to very lucky and very hardworking. Your project has to use techniques that yield results quickly. If you had to make your own KO mouse... well, it's going take longer than if you can use bacteria which grow in a day.

I would think most, if not all MSTP's encourage quick completion since it benefits everyone. I don't know of any "time minimum", but most caps are on how long you can stay.

-X
Click to expand...
 
mercaptovizadeh said:
Is it possible? I heard of a professor who completed her MD/PhD in 5 years at VCU. Do schools have a time minimum, or do you just have to complete a certain set of tasks in any amount of time. I am not really looking forward to 8 years.
Click to expand...

I got my MD from VCU, and yes, they have a reputation for graduating MD/PhD's pretty quickly. Five years is insane, though. If it's true, then I'm willing to bet that there were some additional factors that contributed to the swift completion. I could envision someone who was in the Masters program before starting med school, kept working on the same project during M1 and M2 years, and then managed to slam dunk his/her project afterwards in 1-1.5 years.

The problem with super-fast MD/PhD's is that I have now seen multiple faculty actively snort at anyone who finishes in less than 8 years. Sure, their opinions might change if they find out that said MD/PhD is a superstar, but it happens.
 
There is a faculty member here at my program that finished his MD/PhD in 5 years. He told me that he basically spent medical school in the lab (attendance was optional--just had to study for and pass the exams). Still, this is quite a remarkable feat.
 
mercaptovizadeh said:
Is it possible? I heard of a professor who completed her MD/PhD in 5 years at VCU. Do schools have a time minimum, or do you just have to complete a certain set of tasks in any amount of time. I am not really looking forward to 8 years.
Click to expand...
5 years, even 6 years? I'd say it's pretty much impossible since the MD alone takes four years. A good program will require at least 7 years for both, with three solid years dedicated to the lab and a lot of luck will be needed for that to happen.
 
There is a faculty member here at my program that finished his MD/PhD in 5 years. He told me that he basically spent medical school in the lab (attendance was optional--just had to study for and pass the exams). Still, this is quite a remarkable feat.
Click to expand...

i wonder if we're thinking of the same person - a graduate from cornell/rockefeller now on ucsf's faculty [http://cc.ucsf.edu/people/lingappa_vishwanath.html]...
 
5 years total is insane. 6 even unless there was previous experience involved. My graduate program now has a 3 year minimum because of people thinking they could do it in 2 (not MD/PhDs but regular PhDs).

Honestly, if you are not willing to put in the potential 8 years, MD/PhD isn't for you because it requires a lot of commitment for your entire life....

mercaptovizadeh said:
Is it possible? I heard of a professor who completed her MD/PhD in 5 years at VCU. Do schools have a time minimum, or do you just have to complete a certain set of tasks in any amount of time. I am not really looking forward to 8 years.
Click to expand...
 
kassie said:
5 years total is insane. 6 even unless there was previous experience involved. My graduate program now has a 3 year minimum because of people thinking they could do it in 2 (not MD/PhDs but regular PhDs).

Honestly, if you are not willing to put in the potential 8 years, MD/PhD isn't for you because it requires a lot of commitment for your entire life....
Click to expand...

I strongly disagree with a minimum time requirement and think it is immensely counter-productive.

The point of a PhD is not to spend a specific amount of time in a lab--graduate school isn't medical school. It is to learn how to think about and do science. If you happen to be someone who can finish the program requirements and produce a quality thesis in less than 3 years, then why have an arbitrary program requirement impeding your progress?

I do think that 5 years is very fast and extremely rare, but should not be ruled out a priori.
 
Vader said:
I strongly disagree with a minimum time requirement and think it is immensely counter-productive.

The point of a PhD is not to spend a specific amount of time in a lab--graduate school isn't medical school. It is to learn how to think about and do science. If you happen to be someone who can finish the program requirements and produce a quality thesis in less than 3 years, then why have an arbitrary program requirement impeding your progress?
Click to expand...
I agree. On one aspect, you have somebody who spends 10 years in a PhD without any publications and graduates because "it's just time to leave." Then on the other hand, you have the superstar who publishes a multitude of papers in two years and is told that he/she needs to spend one or two more years because a two year PhD is ridiculous.

What kind of crap is that? If departments are going to have a rule regarding minimum # of publications needed to be eligible to defend one's thesis, then they should f*cking stick with it. None of this double-standard BS. Either that or they should just eliminate these kind of rules.

Some people develop quicker than others. Some people are just more talented in this business. Luck is a factor; however, a good student will translate that luck into productivity in a timely manner. They should be rewarded by being allowed to finish and wrap up quickly.
 
Vader said:
I strongly disagree with a minimum time requirement and think it is immensely counter-productive.

The point of a PhD is not to spend a specific amount of time in a lab--graduate school isn't medical school. It is to learn how to think about and do science. If you happen to be someone who can finish the program requirements and produce a quality thesis in less than 3 years, then why have an arbitrary program requirement impeding your progress?

I do think that 5 years is very fast and extremely rare, but should not be ruled out a priori.
Click to expand...

Agree. If anything, I get rather upset when I hear about grad programs keeping their students for more than 5 or 6 years. Why is it that PhD programs continue to increase in duration as time passes? 7-8 years for a PhD alone is borders on criminal. Unless a person is investigating the most obscure of defenses, why would they need that much time, nor want to spend that much time on a 30k stipend slaving away?
 
Belfagor said:
Agree. If anything, I get rather upset when I hear about grad programs keeping their students for more than 5 or 6 years. Why is it that PhD programs continue to increase in duration as time passes? 7-8 years for a PhD alone is borders on criminal. Unless a person is investigating the most obscure of defenses, why would they need that much time, nor want to spend that much time on a 30k stipend slaving away?
Click to expand...

Hehe, what 30k stipend are you talking about? Last I checked, stipends for MD/PhD were as low as 18.5k (at Dartmouth), and as high as 26k (I think one of the NYC programs). No one is making 30k to my knowledge.

Andy and Vader: I agree with you 100%. That's why I posted the question.
 
mercaptovizadeh said:
Hehe, what 30k stipend are you talking about? Last I checked, stipends for MD/PhD were as low as 18.5k (at Dartmouth), and as high as 26k (I think one of the NYC programs). No one is making 30k to my knowledge.

Andy and Vader: I agree with you 100%. That's why I posted the question.
Click to expand...
Yeah, start talking about low 30K salaries, and you're now in the postdoc salary range...this is after you spend 10-15 years doing a PhD. My stipend in grad school reached about 22 or 23K before I graduated.
 
AndyMilonakis said:
I agree. On one aspect, you have somebody who spends 10 years in a PhD without any publications and graduates because "it's just time to leave."
Click to expand...

I've seen this one two and also disagree with this M.O.

I never said I agreed with the minimum. My grad program did not have a pubs requirement. And publishing in some journals are easier than others. If someone has 2-3 1st author pubs in Nature, Science, or a major journal in their field in ONE year without 20 other authors, let them be on their way but I personally haven't seen it...

However, I also believe that if you can finish an entire thesis in one year starting from scratch (no previous experience in the lab), WITH coursework, then you should take one more year and make it kick-a**. It could be award-winning with one more year of work if you're that good.

I still stand by my opinion that if you're in it for the shortest PhD ever, then you should think again. No one can predict how these things will go so you can be very disappointed.
 
kassie,

i wasn't bashing you or disagreeing with you. i was just expressing an opinion on a matter which does stir up my emotions.

kassie said:
I never said I agreed with the minimum. My grad program did not have a pubs requirement. And publishing in some journals are easier than others. If someone has 2-3 1st author pubs in Nature, Science, or a major journal in their field in ONE year without 20 other authors, let them be on their way but I personally haven't seen it...
Click to expand...
 
🙂 okee. we all have a right to express our opinioins!
after 4 long years in the lab I have a lot of opinions hahaha

AndyMilonakis said:
kassie,

i wasn't bashing you or disagreeing with you. i was just expressing an opinion on a matter which does stir up my emotions.
Click to expand...
 
mercaptovizadeh said:
Hehe, what 30k stipend are you talking about?
Click to expand...

Wishful thinking 😳 .
 
kassie said:
I still stand by my opinion that if you're in it for the shortest PhD ever, then you should think again[/U].
Click to expand...

I don't think anybody really wants to make a record by finishing a PhD in six months.
 
mercaptovizadeh said:
Is it possible? I heard of a professor who completed her MD/PhD in 5 years at VCU. Do schools have a time minimum, or do you just have to complete a certain set of tasks in any amount of time. I am not really looking forward to 8 years.
Click to expand...

I interviewed at VCU back in '99. As I recall, they advertised getting an MD/PhD in 6.5 yr. Basically they were very specific about which labs you could work in, and they pretty much cut out MS4. When I asked about this, the Director replied that "Most of the 4th year is fluff" anyway.

I can't see how you could get done in 5yr. We've had MD/PhD students barely get done in 7yr, and some of these had previous Masters, so they got out of most grad courses. Most do 8-9 total, with the PhD taking 4-5 yr. We've alsohad a few outliers taking 7-10 years in the PhD part, but luckily those are few and far between!
 
mercaptovizadeh said:
Is it possible? I heard of a professor who completed her MD/PhD in 5 years at VCU. Do schools have a time minimum, or do you just have to complete a certain set of tasks in any amount of time. I am not really looking forward to 8 years.
Click to expand...

I interviewed at VCU back in '99. As I recall, they advertised getting an MD/PhD in 6.5 yr. Basically they were very specific about which labs you could work in, and they pretty much cut out MS4. When I asked about this, the Director replied that "Most of the 4th year is fluff" anyway.

I can't see how you could get done in 5yr. We've had MD/PhD students barely get done in 7yr, and some of these had previous Masters, so they got out of most grad courses. Most do 8-9 total, with the PhD taking 4-5 yr. We've also had a few outliers taking 7-10 years in the PhD part, but luckily those are few and far between!
 
mercaptovizadeh said:
Is it possible? I heard of a professor who completed her MD/PhD in 5 years at VCU. Do schools have a time minimum, or do you just have to complete a certain set of tasks in any amount of time. I am not really looking forward to 8 years.
Click to expand...
If everything goes my way, I could very well finish my program in 6 years because:

1) I already have a Master's degree from this school and plan to get a PhD in the same department.

2) I plan to work with my SAME advisor from my Master's program on a project related to my previous work.

Still, I'm leaving room for my program to take at most 7 years total to finish.

I think before dismissing the idea that someone could finish/did finish in less than 7 years, one should examine the facts first. For some folks, this idea isn't far fetched.
 
mdphd2b said:
I interviewed at VCU back in '99. As I recall, they advertised getting an MD/PhD in 6.5 yr. Basically they were very specific about which labs you could work in, and they pretty much cut out MS4. When I asked about this, the Director replied that "Most of the 4th year is fluff" anyway.

I can't see how you could get done in 5yr. We've had MD/PhD students barely get done in 7yr, and some of these had previous Masters, so they got out of most grad courses. Most do 8-9 total, with the PhD taking 4-5 yr. We've also had a few outliers taking 7-10 years in the PhD part, but luckily those are few and far between!
Click to expand...

Wait, I thought Pitt was 6 years. Even the director makes a statement to that effect, that he doesn't like 7 years and really doesn't like 8 years. I guess I missed something.
 
mercaptovizadeh said:
Wait, I thought Pitt was 6 years. Even the director makes a statement to that effect, that he doesn't like 7 years and really doesn't like 8 years. I guess I missed something.
Click to expand...

Yeah, that's what he wishes, but I don't think anybody has graduated in 6 years yet! He uses it as a motivator or something. He also likes to "forget" about the one student who now is in his 10th graduate (!!) year.
 
mercaptovizadeh said:
Wait, I thought Pitt was 6 years. Even the director makes a statement to that effect, that he doesn't like 7 years and really doesn't like 8 years. I guess I missed something.
Click to expand...

LOL...like everyone else I'd say it's an individual basis--what project/dept/advisor you end up choosing, and ultimately what your thesis committee lets you do! Never heard of 6 years here. 7yr may now be a possibility with the new curriculum, b/c they have removed the Interdisciplinary requirement for the 1st year of PhD, so you can basically join your lab after MS2. Also requiring lab rotations the summer before starting med school have helped some people pick a lab sooner, and continue with it during the med school year. BUT all of this just started happening in the past year or so, so we don't have any hard data on how fruitful this will be! In general it sounds like the proposed changes will be good, b/c it cuts out a lot of the "extra" crap we older students were required to do 🙁

Those of us in the older curriculum had different requirements. In my class, we have all moved on to our 4th year of PhD. In the class before me, only 1 person managed to defend in 3 years.
 
I always advocate asking for hard facts from MD/PhD programs you're looking into. The appropriate question would be "What is the average time to graduation for your students over the past few years?" Though, I always felt like I was getting the evil eye from alot of people when I asked straightforward questions like this to cut through the recruiting nonsense...

At Penn the average time to graduation is 7.54 years, and a big part of this time is that we basically cut 4th year out. However, some students elect to take 4th year anyways for various reasons. There are rare 6 year graduates (like the last MD/PhD in my lab!). They are scrutinized because of the stigma of not having "a good PhD", so I really don't think they are graduating prematurely. The standard for my department is 3 papers and a thesis and you can consider yourself done. In imaging, you can bang out 3 papers pretty quickly, and as such, the 6 year graduates are mostly imagers.
 
it's also possible that a short phd is due to a lot of related work as an undergraduate or post-bacc, even in the same lab. If they almost got a phd during their undergrad years why not finish it off and get med school paid for? I know a couple of people in that position
 
microTAS said:
it's also possible that a short phd is due to a lot of related work as an undergraduate or post-bacc, even in the same lab. If they almost got a phd during their undergrad years why not finish it off and get med school paid for? I know a couple of people in that position
Click to expand...

I agree this is another exception. If you want to stay at the same institution for your MD/PhD, then no one can stop you really from going back to your old lab. This especially works out for people who were previously technicians. Then they can jump right in on their project w/minimal training, and even continue working in their lab during their free afternoons in MS1 and MS2. In our program, students can do more than 1 rotation in the same lab if they're sure about joining it, so in theory all that "rotation" time could actually be on their thesis project. This means the student could defend their comps earlier (qualifying exam), and begin to amass dissertation credits for graduation ASAP.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

C
  • Question Question
MD/PhD Gap Year Advice Needed
Replies
5
Views
329
Maebea
M
visualtrick
MD/PHD school list help
Replies
18
Views
3K
RockClimberMed
R
E
WAMC MD/PHD at t30 school as a reapplicant
Replies
2
Views
569
trilobites10294814
trilobites10294814
B
MD + PhD at separate institutions?
Replies
2
Views
1K
Fencer
Fencer
Anthodite
Pre-MD/PhD Advising?
Replies
6
Views
1K
Fencer
Fencer
Top