URM benefits???

Being URM has no added benefit whatsoever.

*puts large bullseye target on back and steps out into a large field filled with landmines*

crazy_cavalier said:

Being URM has no added benefit whatsoever.

*puts large bullseye target on back and steps out into a large field filled with landmines*

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I think that URM, given the history of our society and the current problems in medicine, are given more leniency as far as numbers are concerneced.

horhay said:

Im just curious about how being an URM can help one get into medical school. I thought affirmative action was not an acceptable practice for admitting students...or is that just for undergrad work. Sorry if there are already posts on this topic, the search is still down. Thanks a lot!

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A) your post makes no sense...
B) Why do you care??? Worry about yourself

MarzH05 said:

I think that URM, given the history of our society and the current problems in medicine, are given more leniency as far as numbers are concerneced.

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I hate to see this stereotype. I am an URM and I have good scores; so, no leniency needed.

I believe AA has set quotas for specific background/ethnicity, whereas URM is a status that medical schools consider along with everything else (AA and URM are different). They take URM into special consideration, to attempt to increase the diversity of the school (diversity in every aspect, considering that URM more likely come from different cultures and might be able to relate to some patients better than most due to their background/upbringing).

Disadvantaged status is completely different, and is related to your socioeconomic background and hardships you might have faced.

Both of the above are taken into special consideration when they are reviewing your file for medical school. It depends on each medical school how much weight they place on this, but I am guessing it is minimal (less than gpa/mcat/extracurriculars/lor).

I hope that helped.

JG198 said:

I hate to see this stereotype. I am an URM and I have good scores; so, no leniency needed.

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I have good scores too (and am URM). Its understandable that others that have average scores dislike this policy (everyone wants to equally become a physician and it IS competative).

In all, I am for diversity in every form/matter and I think its beneficial for physicians to be able to identify with all cultures/backgrounds/socioeconomic status to best serve ALL patients.

JG198 said:

I hate to see this stereotype. I am an URM and I have good scores; so, no leniency needed.

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I am not a URM, so my opinion may be worthless, but anyways...

I can see how some socioeconomically disadvantaged URM students may have worked as hard or harder than "white" students, and have as great or greater desire to become a doctor, but due to their uncontrollable situation could not perform as well in school. I can also see how recruiting URMs creates more minority doctors, who can at least serve as leaders for the minorities, and hopefully help to correct the differences in health care that exist between the "whites" and the minorities.

However, I can also see how a URM who has managed to perform very well, regardless of their situation, would be upset to receive "special treatment" over other applicants, but would rather be viewed through colorblind eyes as an excellent applicant through the work they did, not the handicap they may have started with.

To the OP, I have no idea how different schools really view URMs, but I'd hope it takes into account the things I mentioned above.

dajimmers said:

I am not a URM, so my opinion may be worthless, but anyways...

I can see how some socioeconomically disadvantaged URM students may have worked as hard or harder than "white" students, and have as great or greater desire to become a doctor, but due to their uncontrollable situation could not perform as well in school. I can also see how recruiting URMs creates more minority doctors, who can at least serve as leaders for the minorities, and hopefully help to correct the differences in health care that exist between the "whites" and the minorities.

However, I can also see how a URM who has managed to perform very well, regardless of their situation, would be upset to receive "special treatment" over other applicants, but would rather be viewed through colorblind eyes as an excellent applicant through the work they did, not the handicap they may have started with.

To the OP, I have no idea how different schools really view URMs, but I'd hope it takes into account the things I mentioned above.

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Well, in that case, they can just refuse to report their race on AMCAS. That way they won't receive any "special treatment," at least not until interviews. I know someone who is 1/4 Native American who refused to list his race on AMCAS. I don't think he has great stats, but I think he did it so that he wouldn't doubt himself and think that perhaps his ethnicity played a role in his acceptance.

mercaptovizadeh said:

Well, in that case, they can just refuse to report their race on AMCAS. That way they won't receive any "special treatment," at least not until interviews. I know someone who is 1/4 Native American who refused to list his race on AMCAS. I don't think he has great stats, but I think he did it so that he wouldn't doubt himself and think that perhaps his ethnicity played a role in his acceptance.

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what a *****(referring to your friend)... Does the guy who got in with 3.9 and 30 feel he "earned it" any less than the guy who got in with 4.0 and 40???

mercaptovizadeh said:

Well, in that case, they can just refuse to report their race on AMCAS. That way they won't receive any "special treatment," at least not until interviews. I know someone who is 1/4 Native American who refused to list his race on AMCAS. I don't think he has great stats, but I think he did it so that he wouldn't doubt himself and think that perhaps his ethnicity played a role in his acceptance.

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I admire his integrity, but at the same time--applying to medical school is so expensive and time-consuming, it's better to do it once and do it well. If that means working the system, so be it. And the sad thing is, even if you are a URM and know that you have great scores and made it on your own merit, there will always be those who think you got in just because you're a URM. So overall I don't think you gain that much emotionally by not listing your URM status.

None of us have control over our ethnicities or our immediate family situation. I would like to believe my application would be as competitive as it is without being a URM, and I don't try to parade as someone disadvantaged in anyway because growing up I was not in any way. It is my effort to do nothing but present myself in the most candid manner possible and I never seriously mull over the effect of my ethnicity on my application, and leave it up to admissions committees as to whether or not that makes my application "better".

Does my ethnicity make my application more competitve? probably. Will I seriously ever think about or care about if I only got into X school because of my ethnicity? No.

I received a scholarship as an incoming freshmen based on my URM status, along with i think around 50 other kids. There was a huge uproar in the local paper concerning whether such recruitment was appropriate. Did I care? No, I took advantage of the gift and got a 3.9 in engineering and am applying to medical school. One of my best friends with the same scholarship kicked as much ass and is going to grad school at MIT next year.

I think at the end of the day we will be judged by what we do rather than how we got there. Medical schools take into consideration the paths that each of us must take on the journey to the choice of medicine as a profession and consider the obstacles that we have had to overcome in parallel with our grades, ECs, and MCAT scores. This part of your application is called the Personal Statement, and I think a well-written, inspiring personal statement has the potential to capture an admissions committee member's attention more than any two numbers can.

catalystman said:

what a *****(referring to your friend)... Does the guy who got in with 3.9 and 30 feel he "earned it" any less than the guy who got in with 4.0 and 40???

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such a good point!

yourmom25 said:

URMs get recruitment letters from schools. non-URMs get shot in the foot.

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College football players get letters from the NFL but it doesn't mean they get to PLAY in the NFL!

arghh...get over it already. URM have to work just as hard as non-URM. So anyone who thinks they get "special treatment" needs to let that idea go. URM status is a quality that adcom take into consideration in an attempt to diversify the campus. I am certain that adcoms evaluate other qualities much in the same way for the same purpose.

JG198 said:

I hate to see this stereotype. I am an URM and I have good scores; so, no leniency needed.

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Uhhh.....so am I. Just because you have good scores does not negate what I was saying. Read the post by Elastase, he summed it up better.

MarzH05 said:

Uhhh.....so am I. Just because you have good scores does not negate what I was saying. Read the post by Elastase, he summed it up better.

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Thank you!

yourmom25 said:

URMs get recruitment letters from schools. non-URMs get shot in the foot.

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This is not true... I am URM and I did not recieve any kind of recruitment letter from any school...

this thread will self destruct in three....two.....one....

URM threads become more heated toward the end of the process... wait until April

I'm not a URM, I got a recruitment letter from Washington St. Louis. I think that's something they do a lot.

On a related note, I've noticed no one on this board complains about being female as an unfair advantage. Does this mean we've moved past it? Perhaps it is foreshadowing of fewer arguments over URM status.

yourmom25 said:

URMs get recruitment letters from schools. non-URMs get shot in the foot.

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I am a URM and have recieved about a box worth of recruitment letters from medical schools. These letters mean nothing, the two schools that I applied to that sent me letters have not invited me for an interview.

Chinorean said:

I'm not a URM, I got a recruitment letter from Washington St. Louis. I think that's something they do a lot.

On a related note, I've noticed no one on this board complains about being female as an unfair advantage. Does this mean we've moved past it? Perhaps it is foreshadowing of fewer arguments over URM status.

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I got lots of recruitment letters and emails too. I think many schools just send them out in batches to people with certain MCAT scores, and some schools just to anybody with any MCAT score at all!

As far as women, at least 50% of people entering medicine these days are female. So no, it's not an issue, at least as far as med school. But it's still an issue for certain specialties, like surgery. It would be nice if the same thing happens with URMs, but it's going to take a lot of work lower down throughout the entire education system (meaning from kindergarten, or even before, up). Hopefully at least our attitudes will change as they have with women in medicine. Good point to bring up, though.

StartingLine3 said:

I am a URM and have recieved about a box worth of recruitment letters from medical schools. These letters mean nothing, the two schools that I applied to that sent me letters have not invited me for an interview.

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Schools often want students with certain attributes to know that they are welcome at ____ Medical College. Some schools make recruiting trips to the historically black colleges, to the Ivies, to Jesuit collges, etc. to recruit from those pre-med programs. It certainly doesn't mean that a particular applicant from that school is sure to be offered an interview or offered admission. Likewise, I think that some schools can buy mailing lists of potential pre-med applicants who have certain attributes. Again, getting an informational brochure of this type doesn't mean that you'll be offered an interview.

mercaptovizadeh said:

Well, in that case, they can just refuse to report their race on AMCAS. That way they won't receive any "special treatment," at least not until interviews. I know someone who is 1/4 Native American who refused to list his race on AMCAS. I don't think he has great stats, but I think he did it so that he wouldn't doubt himself and think that perhaps his ethnicity played a role in his acceptance.

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wow thats really admirable. i think he should get special recognition for that and everyone should know. hmm youre right about the interviews though, that can be a little hard to get around. also the name factor can give away a lot.

sanche60 said:

this thread will self destruct in three....two.....one....

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it just reveals the latent hostility that this topic creates, not only on sdn but in society. its a shame. i dont think threads on it should ever be stopped--let them flesh themselves out fully. you can stop speech but you cant stop thoughts

yourmom25 said:

i know. i was never saying URMs automatically get in because they are recruited. yet i personally harbor some resentment for URMs because i have witnessed someone with a similar situation to mine get into far more schools (high-tier no doubt) whereas i got jack****. it's just a little resentment though, nothing that i get worked up about.

and yes this topic has been beaten to death. like shredder, i think it is important to continue dialogue on potentially divisive topics. it's healthy for all of us.

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I agree with you on the resentment, although I might be resenting something a bit different. I saw the video on why URMs get in with lower stats in which Dr. Cohen said that URMs are disadvantaged in their schooling and it would therefore make sense that they achieve lower scores. But you've got to realize that it is mostly the African American dude from White Town, CT who is getting the preferential treatment and NOT the one from Harlem, NY. To say that the African American guy from a high socioeconomic status is not capable of achieving scores like his white counterparts is blatant racism. I think that my resentment, along with many others', would vanish if the AAMC simply based its system on socioeconomic status, in which those who are honestly disadvantaged would get preferential treatment. I would support such a system vehemently. I think the AAMC simply does NOT want those from low socioeconomic status and are therefore truly disadvantaged, and the AAMC is therefore using this current system to shush up civil rights activists who might bring up some media attention.

Shredder said:

it just reveals the latent hostility that this topic creates, not only on sdn but in society. its a shame. i dont think threads on it should ever be stopped--let them flesh themselves out fully. you can stop speech but you cant stop thoughts

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I think you may have misinterpretted my post, I was simply predicting the flame war which would ensue in this thread. I am a minority, and have no problem with people discussing such things, as long as they have an educated opinion to share.

NJDUDE said:

I agree with you on the resentment, although I might be resenting something a bit different. I saw the video on why URMs get in with lower stats in which Dr. Cohen said that URMs are disadvantaged in their schooling and it would therefore make sense that they achieve lower scores. But you've got to realize that it is mostly the African American dude from White Town, CT who is getting the preferential treatment and NOT the one from Harlem, NY. To say that the African American guy from a high socioeconomic status is not capable of achieving scores like his white counterparts is blatant racism. I think that my resentment, along with many others', would vanish if the AAMC simply based its system on socioeconomic status, in which those who are honestly disadvantaged would get preferential treatment. I would support such a system vehemently. I think the AAMC simply does NOT want those from low socioeconomic status and are therefore truly disadvantaged, and the AAMC is therefore using this current system to shush up civil rights activists who might bring up some media attention.

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Ok, so if we were to use socioeconomic factors as a factor there would be problems too, right? The only difference is that one's skin color would not be cause.

There are so many ways to cheat the tax system it is not funny. There have been programs that showed parents how to claim a specific status so that their child received more need-based aid, grant money, etc...

I do not think we can ignore the disparities in primary and secondary education though. Much of our potential for development is established while we are young.

NJDUDE said:

I agree with you on the resentment, although I might be resenting something a bit different. I saw the video on why URMs get in with lower stats in which Dr. Cohen said that URMs are disadvantaged in their schooling and it would therefore make sense that they achieve lower scores. But you've got to realize that it is mostly the African American dude from White Town, CT who is getting the preferential treatment and NOT the one from Harlem, NY. To say that the African American guy from a high socioeconomic status is not capable of achieving scores like his white counterparts is blatant racism. I think that my resentment, along with many others', would vanish if the AAMC simply based its system on socioeconomic status, in which those who are honestly disadvantaged would get preferential treatment. I would support such a system vehemently. I think the AAMC simply does NOT want those from low socioeconomic status and are therefore truly disadvantaged, and the AAMC is therefore using this current system to shush up civil rights activists who might bring up some media attention.

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Its funny how so many people feel like a victim b/c of URM recruitment. Maybe I will sympathize if, when you do become a doctor one day, you are mistaken as a janitor b/c people are not used to seeing a minority doctor.

Below there are, among other things, some numbers of the population breakdown of a few minority populations in Texas from a similar thread. There are examples of URMs that do have the resources to be successful. But when I look at the numbers and see that even at undergraduate institutions in Texas that the Hispanic percentage is ~7% (these numbers are not below), mostly because most Hispanics in the state cannot afford to go to college, I feel just fine with the way the system is set up.

Entitlement; *Sigh*... For those that continue to think the system is against them, you have invariabley thought this since you started school, so you should have done what was necessary to overcome these phantom obstacles from the get go. Things may not work out the way you imagined, but you do not have URM recruitment to blame for it.


http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=3142337

Bernito said:

The census bureau reports that the Texas population is split as follows:

32% Hispanic/Latino (probably 30% is Mexican American)
11% African American
2.7% Asian (assuming most are Indian Asian or Chinese, SE asian is probably 0.5%)

All things being equal, by chance we would expect the average MS class of ~200 to have 60 Mexican Americans, 20 African Americans and 5 Asians (1 or 2 SE Asian). I don't have my MSAR handy but I am sure that there were much less than 60 MAs and 20 AAs. Hence the underrepresented part of URM.

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Bernito said:

It is naive to think people are being punished by the recruitment of URMs. We are talking maybe 20 slots taken up by these students per class. Lets say we open up 10 of the slots (b/c the URMs are competitive on their own). Will 10 more slots, or even all 20, suddenly make an applicant competitive where he/she wasn't before?

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Bernito said:

SES should be considered, but this is a difficult task. Race, on the other hand, is something you cannot fake. I knew of someone that "forgot" to list a parent on tax returns (his parents were split, but both still were paying for school) in order to be categorized in the lowest bracket and become eligible for financial aid. This is not even that bad of an example, I am sure there are worse. Can we trust our fellow pre-meds? Some, but not all. Why are MCAT test sites run like detention centers? Because some pre-meds have and will continue to try to cheat the system.

Sure recruiting URMs is an imperfect measure to fix the problem, but there is no better alternative that can be implemented fairly.

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06applicant said:

Great point
Statistically, recruitment of URMs barely changes a non-URMs chances. A study done by Harvard and Princeton in 1999 found that AA only decreased a white's chances of acceptance into one of the top 20 undergrads by 1.5%.

I bet med school numbers are similar

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riceman04 said:

I do agree with you on the problems that could arise with using socio-economic status. It is very easy to claim a certain socio-economic status that is not truly representative of one's income and property values. In fact, there was this one guy who was successfully getting students applying to undergrads to give false information on their tax form so that they could be eligible for extra need-based benefits that are made available to those belonging to a lower socio-economic class.

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Will there ever be a day when Affirmative Action will no longer be used? At what point do the schools say, "Ok, we don't need to use the policy anymore"? That day, I don't think will ever come. Let's face it, the US is divided by race. On many government and non-government documents, the race of a person is noted, even down to taking out a loan at some institutions. When there's a hard division among society based on race, you get these types of issues.

In Canada, there are many people from different cultures and races, I would even argue it maybe more diverse than the States (per capita). There is no affirmative action policy nationwide at all. Just something to think about.

what are the criteria for underadvantaged/disadvantaged?

letmein!please? said:

what are the criteria for underadvantaged/disadvantaged?

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Self reporting like all these things.

It's probably smart to use some sort of yardstick, like food stamps, AFDC, free lunches, or something, or you might misjudge and end up looking like a whiner if questioned.

Jon Davis said:

Will there ever be a day when Affirmative Action will no longer be used? At what point do the schools say, "Ok, we don't need to use the policy anymore"? That day, I don't think will ever come. Let's face it, the US is divided by race. On many government and non-government documents, the race of a person is noted, even down to taking out a loan at some institutions. When there's a hard division among society based on race, you get these types of issues.

In Canada, there are many people from different cultures and races, I would even argue it maybe more diverse than the States (per capita). There is no affirmative action policy nationwide at all. Just something to think about.

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You would hope so, and I do think so (although it is not AA). It used to be that women were recruited in a similar fashion into medicine, but now that the % of women is about the same as the US popl'n of women (~50%) they are not. URM recruitment will end if and when the % also becomes representative.

Bernito said:

Its funny how so many people feel like a victim b/c of URM recruitment. Maybe I will sympathize if, when you do become a doctor one day, you are mistaken as a janitor b/c people are not used to seeing a minority doctor.

Below there are, among other things, some numbers of the population breakdown of a few minority populations in Texas from a similar thread. There are examples of URMs that do have the resources to be successful. But when I look at the numbers and see that even at undergraduate institutions in Texas that the Hispanic percentage is ~7% (these numbers are not below), mostly because most Hispanics in the state cannot afford to go to college, I feel just fine with the way the system is set up.

Entitlement; *Sigh*... For those that continue to think the system is against them, you have invariabley thought this since you started school, so you should have done what was necessary to overcome these phantom obstacles from the get go. Things may not work out the way you imagined, but you do not have URM recruitment to blame for it.

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I really don't feel like a victim of the system. I just feel that the medical profession is using a word of truth while seemingly having not-so-good intentions. It is true that there are people who are disadvantaged, and I support putting their application on top of mine, but I am just saying that the AAMC should be more objective if they truly wanted to uphold the standards they claim. And trust me, no matter what it seems like, they do have the resources to figure out who is disadvantaged and who is not. Finally, let me ask you this. How far do you think we, as a society, should go in giving disadvantaged people priorities? I mean, at what point do they lose their "disadvantaged" status? Let's say I'm a minority student who got accepted to Harvard for undergrad with mediocre SATs relative to other Harvard matriculants. Am I still disadvantaged when I apply to medical school? Residency? I mean, come on... Going to Harvard gives me the best resources in the world. Why am I still disadvantaged when I apply to medical school? How many "shots" of disadvantaged status do I get? They seem to be endless.

yourmom25 said:

i know. i was never saying URMs automatically get in because they are recruited. yet i personally harbor some resentment for URMs because i have witnessed someone with a similar situation to mine get into far more schools (high-tier no doubt) whereas i got jack****. it's just a little resentment though, nothing that i get worked up about.

and yes this topic has been beaten to death. like shredder, i think it is important to continue dialogue on potentially divisive topics. it's healthy for all of us.

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wow, resentment for URMs as a whole group? really? i don't go around resenting people with enough money to pay for an MCAT class, or to take a whole post-bac year to finish pre-med requirements. individuals pi$$ me off, not entire groups.

somewhere2010 said:

wow, resentment for URMs as a whole group? really? i don't go around resenting people with enough money to pay for an MCAT class, or to take a whole post-bac year to finish pre-med requirements. individuals pi$$ me off, not entire groups.

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No joke. I'm not a URM, but I would like to hear what people think the disadvantages of being a minority are, not just academic disadvantages but everywhere. I think those far outweigh the "benefits" afforded to URMs in academics. I would readily become white just so I wouldn't have to deal with all of the disadvantages.

NJDUDE said:

I agree with you on the resentment, although I might be resenting something a bit different. I saw the video on why URMs get in with lower stats in which Dr. Cohen said that URMs are disadvantaged in their schooling and it would therefore make sense that they achieve lower scores. But you've got to realize that it is mostly the African American dude from White Town, CT who is getting the preferential treatment and NOT the one from Harlem, NY. To say that the African American guy from a high socioeconomic status is not capable of achieving scores like his white counterparts is blatant racism. I think that my resentment, along with many others', would vanish if the AAMC simply based its system on socioeconomic status, in which those who are honestly disadvantaged would get preferential treatment. I would support such a system vehemently. I think the AAMC simply does NOT want those from low socioeconomic status and are therefore truly disadvantaged, and the AAMC is therefore using this current system to shush up civil rights activists who might bring up some media attention.

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I think its sad that ppl like you cannot wrap their brains around the fact that even Blacks from high socioeconomic backgrounds are still burdened by some of the the same racism and disadvantages of those with lower socioeconomic backgrounds. Regardless of how much money I have or my parents have, I will always be seen as a BLACK girl, and not as a human being. Like a previos poster said, when (and if) the day comes that a policy such as this is no longer needed, then it will be discontinued. I think some of you have a hard time understanding that the BLACK EXPERIENCE is and will always be beyond your comprehension. You don't know what it's like day in and day out to be a Black woman or man in America. The same applies to other URM. I think it's outright ridiculous for you to ever think that you are in a position to determine which individuals are deserving of this status or who has disadvantages and who doesn't.

And what's this nonsense about preferential treatment? Recruitment of URM is in no way hindering you or any other non-URM from getting into med school. Get over yourself.

And Yourmom: stop crying about someone elses success. Did it ever occur to you that perhaps you didn't stand out? Maybe you just weren't cuttin it. You might want to work that out instead of assuming that your friends URM status is what got him in and not you.

MissMary said:

Regardless of how much money I have or my parents have, I will always be seen as a BLACK girl, and not as a human being.

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I think that's a little extreme. I'm not going to argue that there is racism still in the US, but I don't think that a large proportion of people would identify you as BLACK before being human.
Also, I think you're being unfair to Yourmom. What he's saying is that this person shared similar stats and ecs and still got in ahead of him... It's unfair to accuse him of not considering the fact that the other person might have had different activities and such.

MissMary said:

I think its sad that ppl like you cannot wrap their brains around the fact that even Blacks from high socioeconomic backgrounds are still burdened by some of the the same racism and disadvantages of those with lower socioeconomic backgrounds. Regardless of how much money I have or my parents have, I will always be seen as a BLACK girl, and not as a human being. Like a previos poster said, when (and if) the day comes that a policy such as this is no longer needed, then it will be discontinued. I think some of you have a hard time understanding that the BLACK EXPERIENCE is and will always be beyond your comprehension. You don't know what it's like day in and day out to be a Black woman or man in America. The same applies to other URM. I think it's outright ridiculous for you to ever think that you are in a position to determine which individuals are deserving of this status or who has disadvantages and who doesn't.

And what's this nonsense about preferential treatment? Recruitment of URM is in no way hindering you or any other non-URM from getting into med school. Get over yourself.

And Yourmom: stop crying about someone elses success. Did it ever occur to you that perhaps you didn't stand out? Maybe you just weren't cuttin it. You might want to work that out instead of assuming that your friends URM status is what got him in and not you.

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Well, someone has to decide, because someone did decide. Is it outside everyone's comprehension? If so are we just doing something totally random?

We need to be ready to talk about it and decide what the disadvantages are and how much, if any, preference is needed to offset.

mashce said:

I think that's a little extreme. I'm not going to argue that there is racism still in the US, but I don't think that a large proportion of people would identify you as BLACK before being human.
Also, I think you're being unfair to Yourmom. What he's saying is that this person shared similar stats and ecs and still got in ahead of him... It's unfair to accuse him of not considering the fact that the other person might have had different activities and such.

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Huh???? So its appropriate to first assume that someones race is what gave them "leverage" or "allowed them to get ahead" before assessing the quality of your own application or before entertaining the idea that they may have been an all-around better candidate? Um...right. What he's assuming is that less was required of his friend simply because of his URM status. That's ludicrous. I'm sitting here trying to figure out when the last time being Black put me ahead of anyone else...and I just can't seem to think one up.

Furthermore, being resentful to a class of ppl because you feel that they somehow have the opportunity to do less and still get into medical school is pure nonsense. That kind of thinking is truly sad.

I appreciate your opinion, but mine has not changed.

MissMary said:

Huh???? So its appropriate to first assume that someones race is what gave them "leverage" or "allowed them to get ahead" before assessing the quality of your own application or before entertaining the idea that they may have been an all-around better candidate? Um...right. .

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What I'm saying is that he did not assume that race was what gave them leverage before assessing the quality of his application. He felt that his application was either equal or superior to that of his minority friend. I'm not arguing for or against AA, but I think you're putting words in his mouth.

MissMary said:

Furthermore, being resentful to a class of ppl because you feel that they somehow have the opportunity to do less and still get into medical school is pure nonsense. That kind of thinking is truly sad. .

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Also what most people who oppose AA feel resentment agains is not blacks or hispanics, but rather a system that gives preference to something other than merit...

MissMary said:

I think it's outright ridiculous for you to ever think that you are in a position to determine which individuals are deserving of this status or who has disadvantages and who doesn't.

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It is nearly impossible for non-URMs to understand the URM experience. We would need unbiased arbitrations to help us get rid of pre-conceived notions before we can establish a fruitful dialogue on this subject - and believe you me, that will not be happening on SDN

....are we just doing something totally random?

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Um......yes.

We need to be ready to talk about it and decide what the disadvantages are and how much, if any, preference is needed to offset.

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I doubt that SDN would be the appropriate forum to change something this huge and I certainly don't think that anything we decide here would be of any consequence. However, I do understand your point. I think this topic could be an interesting one as long as ppl have something intelligent to contribute. So far there has been quite a bit of talk of resentment and "preferential treatment". It's all rubbish if you ask me....

MissMary said:

Um......yes.

I doubt that SDN would be the appropriate forum to change something this huge and I certainly don't think that anything we decide here would be of any consequence. However, I do understand your point. I think this topic could be an interesting one as long as ppl have something intelligent to contribute. So far there has been quite a bit of talk of resentment and "preferential treatment". It's all rubbish if you ask me....

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SDN isn't the appropriate forum to change anything and nothing we decide on here has any bearing. However, I think it's important that small groups of people learn to debate topics of importance to all of society. It's the only way we can share our views, educate each other, and end up with some sort of consensus. The decisions end up being made by academic leadership, judicial decisions, or legislation, but the consensus on what needs to happen should come from us, the people.

It might start as rubbish, but if minorities don't take the time to patiently add in their viewpoints, how are other people going to understand? You want the majority to understand the disadvantages you feel you've faced, but you're already dismissing their concerns. If both groups do that, there's no basis for discussion. We all have a hand in how civil and educational a debate becomes and we can only do it by listening.

I understand how the URM thing works. I'm personally against the concept. I think any preference should be based on socioeconomic factors and/or where a student went to school during their formative years. I'm partially Native American and checked that as well as white when I applied. The minute I published that in my MDApplicants, I got comments like "URM". Yeah, my 36 MCAT didn't have anything to do with my acceptances So I feel a see a certain amount of both sides. I don't think we'll ever get away from racism until we stop using race to make so many decisions, though. If race is ever going to be irrelevant, we need to face that it's already irrelevant.

First off I am new here and, I find the AA debate to be absolutely disgraceful… I understand that many of you are gunner pre-meds who love to sabotage others for a slight benefit but, this is beyond comprehension… Do URM’s get an advantage??? YES but, it is a slight advantage:

http://home.sandiego.edu/~e_cook/vault/medical/sanfrancisco/ucsf-med-97.html
http://home.sandiego.edu/~e_cook/vault/medical/losangeles/ucla-med-97.html

especially at the top schools… All of you need to stop hating and worry about yourself … ~2000 URMs get in every year BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOo bit*hes that is something to cry about… And, many of them are qualified to get into some med school so, why not worry about yourself????…

I think many of you just hate URM's and can't stand to see them of equal footing with you... racist sh*ts!!!!

lucklucknow said:

First off I am new here and, I find the AA debate to be absolutely disgraceful… I understand that many of you are gunner pre-meds who love to sabotage others for a slight benefit but, this is beyond comprehension… Do URM’s get an advantage??? YES but, it is a slight advantage:

http://home.sandiego.edu/~e_cook/vault/medical/sanfrancisco/ucsf-med-97.html
http://home.sandiego.edu/~e_cook/vault/medical/losangeles/ucla-med-97.html

especially at the top schools… All of you need to stop hating and worry about yourself … ~2000 URMs get in every year BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOo bit*hes that is something to cry about… And, many of them are qualified to get into some med school so, why not worry about yourself????…

I think many of you just hate URM's and can't stand to see them of equal footing with you... racist sh*ts!!!!

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Your links don't support your words. Further, your inflammatory tone doesn't add anything positive at all. A civil debate only comes from being civil.