Every medical school you ask advice from right now will give you a slightly different answer. Unless you are gung ho about one school, applying to many diverse schools is critical to maximize your chance of success. Even applying with a Ph.D., medical schools care about your undergraduate GPA and they care about it a lot. It's a well-known fact that graduate school GPA's are a little more subjective. However, unless you have a ton of C's or worse in the undergraduate sciences (coupled with your nice graduate school GPA) I would not recommend repeating undergraduate courses. I see a lot of posts on SDN recommending this and I've even heard some premed advisors recommend this but, honestly, as a Ph.D. applicant, If you can handle upper division science courses and you are well-published, there's nothing whatsoever to be gained from repeating chem 101, bio 101 etc. or doing more postbacc undergraduate classes. It's lunacy and I'll justify this statement in the next paragraph.Creightonite said:
Good luck!.
Interesting. I actually had a mixed experience, and it is pretty difficult for me to draw any clear conclusions based on the schools' stated missions from my outcomes. I applied to four state schools, and then most of the rest were private research-oriented schools. All of the schools that rejected me, whether pre-secondary or post-interview, were private research-oriented schools. My state schools are familiar with my college and have accepted previous alums. So they did waive their UG GPA requirements and accept me, as did a couple of other public schools that I applied to in two other states to which I have ties. On the other hand, like you, most of the schools that ended up accepting me were private research-oriented schools, so....Scottish Chap said:
. You will be in a better place to figure things out after that since you can at least get out with a masters. BUT, I would encourage you to hang in there. PhD programs were never meant to be a trip to Disneyland... The MCAT can be prepared for, its a standardized exam, regardless if its on paper or in electronic format. I took the MCAT twice already, earning a 36 nearly 3 years ago. Obviously when I apply to med school after finishing my PhD, I will have to take the MCAT again. The MCAT is indeed challenging, but certainly overrated. Your worse enemy in this game, and in life is YOURSELF. Don't psych yourself out, but also know where your limits are, and maximize on your strengths. Hope that helps!Creightonite said:
Scottish Chap said:Every medical school you ask advice from right now will give you a slightly different answer. Unless you are gung ho about one school, applying to many diverse schools is critical to maximize your chance of success. Even applying with a Ph.D., medical schools care about your undergraduate GPA and they care about it a lot. It's a well-known fact that graduate school GPA's are a little more subjective. However, unless you have a ton of C's or worse in the undergraduate sciences (coupled with your nice graduate school GPA) I would not recommend repeating undergraduate courses. I see a lot of posts on SDN recommending this and I've even heard some premed advisors recommend this but, honestly, as a Ph.D. applicant, If you can handle upper division science courses and you are well-published, there's nothing whatsoever to be gained from repeating chem 101, bio 101 etc. or doing more postbacc undergraduate classes. It's lunacy and I'll justify this statement in the next paragraph.
I have several friends who did an M.D. after their Ph.D. Of those friends with undergraduate GPA's between 3.0 and 3.3, a fine MCAT performance coupled with publications is how they sold themselves. It's true that many schools screen heavily on the undergraduate GPA (especially state schools) and some of them even use a computer program to do this so they won't even see that fact that you've distinguished yourself as a research scholar. Expect to be screened out by many of those schools, so you must apply widely. If you are in communication with only one medical school that you are dying to attend, you pretty much have to do what they ask and you can ignore my advice which is intended for the general Ph.D. applicant with a couple of red flags in their application. To increase your chances, I would still apply widely anyway. I know too many people who have been 'promised' things by admissions ccommittees before application only to be devastated if things did not go as they expected. In the and, an offer of admission is a committee decision.
If you sell yourself tastefully, you can get into medical school. Expect to be taken more seriously by research-oriented schools who will anticipate your career goal of being a clinician-scientist and they may recognize your research accomplishments a little better. It's a well-known fact by people who have taken this route that an applicant with a very 'average' GPA and/or MCAT is more likely to get into a private medical school because they can admit whomever they please. Note: I am not implying that private medical schools have uniformly lower standards. Private medical schools make so much money from RO1's and tuition etc. and, unlike state schools that are mandated to pump out x number of doctors per year (so they're not going to chance you flunking out), private schools don't work that way. Much like QofQuimica, I did not have an undergraduate GPA and, unlike QofQuimica, my MCAT performance was pretty mediocre so I know I was screened out by some schools right away. I expected it and so I didn't take it personally. With a good graduate school GPA and several high-impact publications, guess which schools took me most seriously as a Ph.D. applicant to medical school?.....the higher-ranked private schools. I didnt believe it when I was told to expect this before I applied, but thats exactly what I experienced.
You can't change your past so don't punish yourself. Take as many graduate courses as your school will allow and do well in them. Study for the MCAT like your life depended on it and try to scoop up as many publications and awards as you can during your Ph.D. Also be aware that all medical schools will want to see sustained evidence of health care experience and exposure so you know what youre getting yourself into. In the end, a Ph.D. is just a piece of paper that demsonstrates perseverance and the training in medical school requires very different intellectual and personal traits. This is the best way you can market yourself. If I can get in, you can too. Lastly, be careful what you wish for: you might just get it!
George, I'm in something of a similar situation (finishing my PhD in the next year, have known for a couple years that ultimately I don't want a job as "just" a research professor), so I empathize. I also agree you should stick through and finish the degree, *especially* since you have an involved and supportive PI. Does he know your plans to apply to med school? Sit down with him soon and have a heart-to-heart. Tell him you're extremely appreciative of his support and inspired to work hard and do great research for his lab, but that ultimately you want to get a project completed and move on. Make it clear that you want to get out fast by *working harder*, not by doing an easier project. If from the outset you have your eyes on a goal, the two of you can devote a lot of early energy to designing a project that will progress quickly and will ideally leave you with publishable information no matter the results you actually get (e.g. a negative result will be as interesting as a positive result, or any of a number of possible outcomes will be interesting, etc.) Your PI will support you and push you hard to get done fast, particularly if you hold up your end of the bargain (work hard, deliver publishable data quickly). I know from experience that if you *don't* start out with a strong timeline you will very quickly find yourself wandering down interesting but time-consuming side lines to explore little quirks in your results, and possibly get completely off-course. If instead at every juncture you make a decision based on the ultimate content of your thesis, and figure you can leave the interesting side experiments to some future grad student, staying on track should be very do-able.pargeo712 said:
Thank you for your encouraging words. Not everyone might agree but I try to be as honest as I can and I only reply to threads I have personal experience of. All the best, and don't give up if this is what you really want to do. Things look a little clearer once you're on the other side of the admissions line.thecaptain said:
kate_g said:
My friend who was a 6th year PhD student also lead a 'double life' for 18 months while he was getting ready to apply to medical school. His biggest fear was that his P.I. would be angry and think that he was wasting his Ph.D. He eventually told his P.I. and, like most people (myself included), one's worst fears are never confirmed and his P.I. was his biggest advocate in the end. My friend is now through medical school and starting his residency at Johns Hopkins this week.Immuno-guy said:
