Pre-Allo FAQ Series: Are EC's really required, and if so which ones?

DoctorPardi said:

This is another installment of the Pre-Allo FAQ Series of threads. Basically I'll be offering the community a common topic or question and leaving it to you guys to decide on the best answer. Debate and discussion is allowed and welcomed. The goal is to include the community in answering some of the most common questions pre-meds are interested in.

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There are plenty of threads about Extracurricular activities and how important they are to applications. So this will be our next topic in our Pre-Allo FAQ series.

The main discussion should be focused on:
1) How important are they?
2) Which EC's should I do?
3) How do I get involved in an EC (research, volunteering, clinical experience etc)? Maybe users could talk about how they personally got involved in whatever EC they did.

Later on I plan on covering specific extracurricular activities in more depth individually so for now talk about them in the broader collective sense. Although feel free to elaborate and contribute as you'd like too.

Thanks again to the community for participating 🙂

Also let me remind everyone that all of the old threads can be found in the Pre-Allo Information Thread.

Pre-Allopathic FAQ Series:

-Pre-Allo FAQ Series:What is more important GPA or MCAT?

-Pre-Allo FAQ Series: Does it matter what university you graduate from?

-Pre-Allo FAQ Series: How many schools should I apply too?

-Pre-Allo FAQ Series: How Do I Write My Personal Statement?

DoctorPardi said:

There are plenty of threads about Extracurricular activities and how important they are to applications. So this will be our next topic in our Pre-Allo FAQ series.

The main discussion should be focused on:
1) How important are they?
2) Which EC's should I do?
3) How do I get involved in an EC (research, volunteering, clinical experience etc)? Maybe users could talk about how they personally got involved in whatever EC they did.

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EC's are usually unofficial requirements, although a number of schools seem to strongly suggest that an applicant have particular ones, either directly, or indirectly through their secondary application (they are essentially construed as requirements when the secondary asks you to write a 500 word essay on your clinical and/or community service experience) and interviews ("so, tell me about your clinical experience."). Don't apply without them.

Solid EC's are in fact vital to a successful application. While they are clearly not as important as your MCAT score and UGPA (these have the capacity to trump EC's), they round out everything and give the adcoms a sense of who you are beyond the numbers. They give the adcoms another dimension in which to draw conclusions about your suitability to the profession. Not only that, but good EC's are places from which you can draw good stories to tell in your numerous essays and interviews. You need to tell a good story of yourself; you need to convince, in an evidence-based manner, that you demonstrate the qualities of a good candidate for a specific medical school and as a candidate for becoming a physician in general. Some of these qualities include, professionalism, leadership, interest in community service/volunteerism, ability to deal and communicate with patients (who are often smelly and messy), knowledge of the profession/lifestyle, integrity, ability to research, and ability to act under pressure.

Yes, it's a tall order. If you've done years of good extracurricular activities that demonstrate these qualities, you are in good shape. Some ways to show the aforementioned qualities are to participate in clinical experiences, community service/volunteer activities, roles in which you take initiative, teaching experiences, research, etc. I think by far the most commonly asked about experiences are community service/volunteer, clinical experiences, and research. Other activities, such as artistic endeavors, can further enhance your application, but are not as important. However, keep in mind that demonstrating other interests outside of medicine/sciences, i.e., that you are a multi-dimentional being, is very favorable, as adcoms don't want one-note sambas for doctors. Future doctors need to know how to relate to a variety of patients, who themselves are mult-dimensional beings, with varied interests.

Another important activity, while not really an EC, but fairly important nonetheless, is shadowing a physician. You need to know what the profession entails on a day-to-day level. Shadowing can really help you build an argument that you understand this. It will help during an interview.

Anyway, that's what I have right now.

A few random comments - some recycled from long-ago posts:

An an "EC", employment of any kind certainly belongs in the "Experience" section of the AMCAS and it will be taken into account by the adcoms. Working in health care is fine but the lessons learned in any servcie sector job can translate to the service of medicine. Blue collar work is acceptable, too, particularly if it gives you a glimpse into a world that you'd otherwise not know. If working is related to the financial hardship you and your family faced as you were growing up (did you work in HS? did your wages help to cover family living expenses? what % of your tuition/fees in college was covered by your earnings?) the you might want to check the "hardship" box as well and fill out that section of the AMCAS. That too, will be taken into consideration.

If you aren't working in a health care setting, volunteering there will provide you with the opportunity to be face-to-face with sick people. Far away from a hospital? Look into the possibility of volunteering at a nursing home or rehab facility. There may be volunteer opportunities in your community in outpatient clinics that serve the poor & uninsured. Hospice programs that provide friendly visitors/respite for caregivers are another option.

Go for the experience of what it is to "serve", go for the experience of getting to learn about the experience of the sick/dying. Once you've got your foot in the door you will have an opportunity to meet physicians and some of them may give you the opportunity to gain shadowing experiences that will expand your access to the inner workings of the facility. (e.g. while I was using the recreational facilities available to doctors & staff, I chatted with a doctor who gave me the opportunity to round with him in the ICU. That led me to be introduced to a surgeon who let me watch him perform a minor procedure in the OR.) The volunteer work might be repetitious & boring but it gets you in the door and gives you access to people who you might not otherwise meet.

If your goal is admission to one of the top 20 medical schools, you should have at least a semester of research experience. This is particularly true at schools where all, or almost all, students are expected to do research as a requirement for the degree.

Do something fun and interesting. This can be studio or performing arts, journalism, athletics, a political cause, a hobby.

Leadership opportunities in campus groups or off-campus are good as is the opportunity to sit on a panel or board of the University (e.g. Dean's advisory committee). This includes the Greek system which can provide opportunities for leadership and organziational skills.

After talking to a UCSD admissions person, I have come to realize that the two most essential activities are 1) Clinical volunteering/job 2) Research. Everything else is just gravy. All said and done, it seems like having a high MCAT score and GPA weights more in terms of gaining an acceptance.

All EC's are meaningless unless they include dead african babies...


On a serious note, you have to be able to show adcom's you actually know what you're getting into which is why at least some clinical experience is an unspoken requirement. Service is a big deal too. As a physician you will be serving others which is why they look highly upon volunteerism medically related or not. Research is gravy, but if you didn't screw up and were actually proficient it says you didn't just partner up with the smart kids in each lab and you can actually handle equipment.

Don't know what happened to the long post I made earlier so I'll retype it now.

1. How important are ECs?

From my experience while there will always be exceptions to the rule, the general rule of thumb is that ECs are important because getting numbers isn't enough in a time when more and more applicants are applying. They need something to further trim down all the potential candidates and ECs sort of helps trim down the stack more. A person could have decent numbers but absolutely be wrong for a given school which is why they use other factors like ECs and essays to distinguish you. Another point is that by doing some sort of clinical experience they want to know that you've talked with physicians and healthcare workers and know what you are getting yourselves into since its hard to turn back once you are in the midst of medical education and residency training.

2. What kind of extracurriculars should one do?

There is no laundry list of things that one should do or the exact amount one should do it. However, there are some basic things that premeds generally have when applying:

1. Clinical exposure. I'll expand on this one in a minute.
2. Some sort of Volunteerism.
3. Research
4. Leadership

Besides those things, a lot of schools like to see innovative things and things that set you apart from others via your artistic endeavors and personal talents like music, dance, sports, etc. something fun as LizzyM would call it.

I'd also like to point out the following categories are listed on AMCAS for your ECs section:

1. Employment -military
2. Employment -nonmilitary
3. Volunteerism-clinical/medical
4. Volunteerism-non clinical/non medical
5. Teaching/tutoring
6. Research/lab
7. Honors/Awards/Recognition
8. Conferences Attended
9. Presentations/Posters
10. Publications
11. Extracurriculars/Hobbies/Avocations
12. Leadership not listed elsewhere
13. Intercollegiate Athletics
14. Artistic Endeavors
15. Other



So as you can see several different things are included in the ECs department and one kind of EC can be split into diferent categories.

For instance, research can be categorized into research/lab category in which you describe what you did in the lab and how long you spent time in the lab etc. On the other hand, you can also use the presentations/poster category or conferences attended category or publications if you presented your research or published your research or if you attended a conference where you presented your research.

The unspoken rule is that you want to have clinical exposure to some extent and that clinical exposure can come in the form of employment, volunteering, shadowing, etc. I've been told though that you should do some volunteering and shadowing not substitute shadowing for volunteerism. That, however, does not mean people haven't gotten in with only doing one or the other. The process is subjective as I implicated before.

I'll continue on this post more later.

Say your state school avg MCAT is around a 28-29, and you have slightly below this, with a fairly well-rounded distribution.

What an admissions person (personnel of some sort) told me was that 40% of the class has approx. the avg. score or below that state avg. Hence, it is important to distinguish yourself in other aspects. How else can one stand out amidst people with the same stats, some above (w/o guarantees either) and some below? What would seem like a green light---since everyone has volunteered, etc etc??

Furthermore, she went on to emphasize just how important the personal statement is and how much you need to show that you are capable of a 30 even if you do not have one...furthermore defending that you will go in to medicine whether or not you get into medical school (those were her words).

docolive said:

What would seem like a green light---since everyone has volunteered, etc etc??

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Be interesting. Your ECs and PS should make a reader say "what an interesting person! Wouldn't it be fun to have an opportunity to chat?" This could mean being a good story teller and having something worth telling. (your PS & secondary essays) It can also mean having at least one EC that seems particularly interesting. I interviewed one guy who had been responsible for hiring and supervising the cook at his frat house, another who had a few months (and enough savings) to take a cooking course at the Cordon Bleu in Paris, and one who buys vintage items (I don't want to be too specific here) on Ebay, refurbishes them, and sells them for fun & profit.

LizzyM said:

Be interesting. Your ECs and PS should make a reader say "what an interesting person! Wouldn't it be fun to have an opportunity to chat?" This could mean being a good story teller and having something worth telling. (your PS & secondary essays) It can also mean having at least one EC that seems particularly interesting. I interviewed one guy who had been responsible for hiring and supervising the cook at his frat house, another who had a few months (and enough savings) to take a cooking course at the Cordon Bleu in Paris, and one who buys vintage items (I don't want to be too specific here) on Ebay, refurbishes them, and sells them for fun & profit.

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thanks!

I agree with LizzyM. Be interesting. Do things you are passionate about.

In regards to question 3, I never answered that before so I'll answer now then expand upon 2 cuz that's a question with a very long answer.

3. How does one go about obtaining ECs?

This may vary from school to school but here at USF here's some tips:

1. For research if you are in the honors college you might want to talk to the Dean of the Honors college because they have a lot of ties with people in the medical school and other facilities. Another way to go about it is to ask peers who are doing research who they do research with and whether their PIs would be willing to take on another student. Another idea would be to get together with one of your undergrad science professors and do research with them by asking them if they'll allow it.

2. For volunteering, go to the major hospitals, hospice centers, and nursing homes in your area and find out who is the volunteer coordinator there. This question takes more time because it really depends on type of volunteering. But these are just a few ideas. There are also organizations like Hands on Tampa Bay or at our school we have Volunteer USF and alternative spring break and Camp Boggy Creek as community volunteering. Look into organizations like that or other major organizations like Red Cross, Habitat for Humanity, etc.

3. Shadowing. For this I always recommend students near teaching facilities to email a polite email to different academic physicians because they are more willing then private physicians to help out with shadowing. At least that is how it is at USF.

that's the short ended answer. I'm going to have to put a few more posts on this thread to expand upon all the smaller fine tune details of some things regarding question 2.

3.

I wanted to expand upon my posts some more.

What are some common clinical experience types?

Volunteering with any of the following: a hospital or out patient clinic, a hospice center, a nursing home, or as an EMT are the most common types. Volunteering with a hospital often includes the following kind of positions: volunteering in waiting rooms like the surgical waiting rooms helping patients' family members out, volunteering as an escort by taking patients from one place to another (wheelchair pushing and delivering samples to labs), volunteering with childlife in either a hospital or clinic doing arts and crafts activities with children, playing games to them, reading to them, etc. Also, other hospital volunteering includes feeding patients. Those are all generally fine but don't go for a clerical volunteering position or gift shop/cafeteria position if you can avoid it.

Hospice centers tend to be very hands on in getting patient contact with terminally ill and dying patients. Nursing homes often have opportunities to do similar activities to that of which you do with childlife. Things like arts and crafts, bingo, or other such activities.

Volunteering as an EMT-B is probably the most interactive in terms of exposing you directly to some basic clinical skills.

For jobs which give clinical experience the following are some of the most common jobs: phlebotomy, CNA, Patient Care Tech (PCT), EMT-B, LPN/RN if you have a nursing degree from previously, Imaging assistant for radiology, working in a doctor's office, etc.

Other clinical experiences may also be obtained via going on foreign medical mission trips, volunteering with the red cross, volunteering with the health department near you, acting as a translator at an out patient free clinic. Making beds and preparing rooms at a free clinic are also considered.

Shadowing is also clinical experience but if you can help it try not to substitute it for volunteerism but rather use it as an addition to the other stuff.

Clinical experience and research trump the rest of them. And by research, I don't mean cleaning the beakers for the grad students after hours.

Don't get too bogged down in student organizations - they take way more time than they should. Only volunteer for something you LIKE doing (I was a camp counselor, which was fun), otherwise, you should be getting paid for it. 😀

TheProwler said:

Clinical experience and research trump the rest of them. And by research, I don't mean cleaning the beakers for the grad students after hours.

Don't get too bogged down in student organizations - they take way more time than they should. Only volunteer for something you LIKE doing (I was a camp counselor, which was fun), otherwise, you should be getting paid for it. 😀

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yeah I agree with you about clinical experience and research trumping other things. Research should show substantial lab work and if possible is even better when it results in poster presentations/oral presentations, conferences, and/or especially publications.

1) How important are they?
Use common sense. What will you talk about during your interview? Your grades? Your MCAT? How you studied for those two numbers? Hell no.

2) Which EC's should I do?/How do I get involved in an EC?
The easiest EC to get into is something you enjoy and have been doing for a while, probably since high school, although you can most certainly "pick up" something during college. I would recommend something with athletics - namely because at the very least, you would have gone to practices, maybe some tournaments, perhaps picked up some teaching skills. The problem with things like "Iranian Students Association" or "Korean American Students Association" is that adcoms know this type of bullsh*t, where you go sit in on a meeting and then write yourself down as a member on your app.

You need something with substance, something where you contribute either to a team or the general community. Then on top of that, it is best to get involved in administrative duties, becoming a president or whatever. For example, I had been doing martial arts since high school. When I got to college, I joined a club that was very similar to the style I did in high school. Went to all the practices, got the belts, etc.

But the stuff that the med schools care about came next - I was president of the club for three years. Being the president, I had to organize practice times, tournament trips, and oversee the other officers. I also organized seminars with organizations outside of school, as well as other clubs in school, even helping set up an open mat full contact sparring meet for all the martial arts clubs in school. I also got a good amount of teaching experience, both the club and also kids classes that we held for the general community for inner city school kids.

On top of that, by being president of the club, I was automatically a representative to the university sports council, and also the student activities commission - became very well versed in budgeting and school financial matters, and got somewhat involved in student government. So basically, if you play your cards right, one thing will lead to another, if you put in the work. Just going to some stupid student interest group's one meeting a semester isn't going to cut it, because when adcoms ask you about it in the interview and you have nothing to say, you will look like a bser. My experience with university athletics and also just training martial arts came up in over half of my interviews, and one of them it nearly took up the entire talk.

I want to mention some things about my research experience, since it was so good. I was pretty lucky; the way I got my position was by going to the university cancer center website and getting a list of lab emails. I just went down the list emailing random PhDs and MDs asking if they needed an undergrad assistant. The first one to email me back - I went to her lab and haven't left since.

Part of making a research experience worth it is learning as much as you can, and integrating yourself into the team. For once, just drop the premed crap and be there for the sake of being a lab member, not some greedy premed. Because it will be more rewarding than you can imagine. Get to know your lab techniques and protocols and why you do things, rather than simply following instruction manuals. When doing your experiments, keep a focus on the question you are trying to answer, and why you are taking the steps you chose. This will help you later in interviews when they ask about your projects.

Integrating yourself into the lab team is pretty critical, because your fellow labmates who are most likely PhDs, grad students, and med students know more than you about probably everything science related. They can make your life great, or they can just ignore you, and in some cases I've heard, can make your life hell. Learn to network early, who knows, some of these post docs and doctors can write you LORs or even act as contacts for advice or help way down the road. If you walk in there for the sole purpose of having crap to write on your app, they will know it and they will treat you accordingly.

Basically that applies to pretty much anything in ECs, and I suppose this is my bottom line. Don't do them because you're a snotty overachieving premed. Do them to enrich yourself professionally and personally, and totally run with it as far as you can. Open whatever doors they offer, take whatever opportunites drop into your lap as a result.

And don't fill your app with crap. Adcoms will laugh at you.

I've got a question about depth of EC's. I think the rest of
my app looks pretty good with 3.95 cum GPA, 36 MCAT, 40+ hrs of physician shadowing, leadership positions held in continually active campus organizations, and lots of lab experience working in the pharmaceutical industry (my major is biochem engineering).

My dilemma arises when it comes to volunteer experience. I've helped with blood drives and youth health awareness programs put on with my school's pre-health student club. But- I haven't had a consistent "went out on my own and found it" sort of volunteer experience. I plan on applying to med school this summer and I've just started doing 4-5 hrs/week at a local nursing home. From what I've read, it almost seems like the longstanding individual crusade/experience is all that counts to adcoms and without that people reek of "false devotion". Is this correct or do you think I'll be okay?

mongrel said:

I've got a question about depth of EC's. I think the rest of
my app looks pretty good with 3.95 cum GPA, 36 MCAT, 40+ hrs of physician shadowing, leadership positions held in continually active campus organizations, and lots of lab experience working in the pharmaceutical industry (my major is biochem engineering).

My dilemma arises when it comes to volunteer experience. I've helped with blood drives and youth health awareness programs put on with my school's pre-health student club. But- I haven't had a consistent "went out on my own and found it" sort of volunteer experience. I plan on applying to med school this summer and I've just started doing 4-5 hrs/week at a local nursing home. From what I've read, it almost seems like the longstanding individual crusade/experience is all that counts to adcoms and without that people reek of "false devotion". Is this correct or do you think I'll be okay?

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I don't think that they would consider your involvement with the pre-health student club is "false devotion". The fact is that you've been volunteering in health-related activities and that shows at least some interest. I would think it would be good to have a longstanding individual crusade/experience and someone who has something like this probably has "better volunteer experience" than you, but, then again, your extracurriculars are what you make of it. If you can expand on your experiences and show personal depth when relating these experiences, you can turn your sporadic volunteering into more of a gain than it normally would give you. As many would say: "quality over quantity". I have a hunch that you'll be fine(if you're smart about applying).

I agree that research and clinical experience are the two most important, but I also think that clinical experience is far more important than research.

Not having research is doable, hell I didn't have any, but not knowing what medicine is about, that is a big problem.

The importance of clinical and research experience has been highlighted already. So I would like to emphasize the stuff that makes you an interesting candidate. I would say that my clinical experience (EMT, some shadowing) and research experience (summer after sophomore year and all of year off) definitely improved my application a lot. However, it wasn't talked about during my interviews all that much. I got many many more questions about my semester abroad (Italy), and my experience with Lion Dance (how many Black people do you know are on a lion dance team?). Many medical schools aim to have a well-rounded student body which makes them more interesting and in turn attract more interesting students. So if you have unrelated talents and/or interests, pursue them. Don't plan every second of your life around your medical school application (i.e. do what you like to do in addition to the things that can traditionally help your app), and it can positively impact the way adcomms see you as well as make interviews easier (I'd rather talk about Italy than my research).

I'm just wondering if 3 years experience volunteering and working with clients with developmental disabilities counts as clinical experience? I have a strong understanding of what the responsibility is to care for someone.

doctorbettyrock said:

I'm just wondering if 3 years experience volunteering and working with clients with developmental disabilities counts as clinical experience? I have a strong understanding of what the responsibility is to care for someone.

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Poise this question in the adcom thread too to get LizzyM's feedback.

My feedback is that you should also do a little bit of shadowing just to understand a doctor's lifestyle is like and so forth.

sponge said:

I would say that my clinical experience (EMT, some shadowing) and research experience (summer after sophomore year and all of year off) definitely improved my application a lot. However, it wasn't talked about during my interviews all that much. I got many many more questions about my semester abroad (Italy), and my experience with Lion Dance....

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Don't confuse what the adcom looks for in deciding to grant an interview with what an interviewer will want to talk about in the interview. If the goal is to get to know you "as a person" and to determine if you are "well rounded" the interviewer may choose to talk about something unusual rather than grades (or research - at schools that value that).

LizzyM said:

A few random comments - some recycled from long-ago posts:

An an "EC", employment of any kind certainly belongs in the "Experience" section of the AMCAS and it will be taken into account by the adcoms. Working in health care is fine but the lessons learned in any servcie sector job can translate to the service of medicine. Blue collar work is acceptable, too, particularly if it gives you a glimpse into a world that you'd otherwise not know. If working is related to the financial hardship you and your family faced as you were growing up (did you work in HS? did your wages help to cover family living expenses? what % of your tuition/fees in college was covered by your earnings?) the you might want to check the "hardship" box as well and fill out that section of the AMCAS. That too, will be taken into consideration.

If you aren't working in a health care setting, volunteering there will provide you with the opportunity to be face-to-face with sick people. Far away from a hospital? Look into the possibility of volunteering at a nursing home or rehab facility. There may be volunteer opportunities in your community in outpatient clinics that serve the poor & uninsured. Hospice programs that provide friendly visitors/respite for caregivers are another option.

Go for the experience of what it is to "serve", go for the experience of getting to learn about the experience of the sick/dying. Once you've got your foot in the door you will have an opportunity to meet physicians and some of them may give you the opportunity to gain shadowing experiences that will expand your access to the inner workings of the facility. (e.g. while I was using the recreational facilities available to doctors & staff, I chatted with a doctor who gave me the opportunity to round with him in the ICU. That led me to be introduced to a surgeon who let me watch him perform a minor procedure in the OR.) The volunteer work might be repetitious & boring but it gets you in the door and gives you access to people who you might not otherwise meet.

If your goal is admission to one of the top 20 medical schools, you should have at least a semester of research experience. This is particularly true at schools where all, or almost all, students are expected to do research as a requirement for the degree.

Do something fun and interesting. This can be studio or performing arts, journalism, athletics, a political cause, a hobby.

Leadership opportunities in campus groups or off-campus are good as is the opportunity to sit on a panel or board of the University (e.g. Dean's advisory committee). This includes the Greek system which can provide opportunities for leadership and organziational skills.

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Hello,

Currently I work full time as a clinical research associate- in the mass general cancer center protocol office (no patient contact).
(I am taking Medical Terminology free of charge as well - this place is a great hospital to work for!)
I also work part time as a personal trainer and soon to be nutrition consultant.
I have also started a pre-med volunteer program at the brigham and women's hospital- 60 hours inpatient and outpatient then 80 hours in a department (then shadowing a physician).

Is this enough for experience? does working in clinical research (no patient contact) serve as clinical or research experience?

I wasnt sure if I should be looking into a different part time research coordinator (patient contact), lab research, or secretarial job within the hospital for "clinical experience". Does training clients (exercise testing & prescription, designing programs, and consulting in fitness and nutrition) count ?

Many Thanks in Advance
CiaoCiao ~ Christina😕

Pardi, we've been on this topic for more than a month.

Next.

eternalrage said:

Pardi, we've been on this topic for more than a month.

Next.

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Thanks for the reminder Eternal, and sorry for the delay. The newest Pre-Allo FAQ Series thread can be found here:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=395122

Also if any of you have ideas for new threads feel free to PM them to me, I am always up for suggestions.