2007 MD/PhD Match

(source: was there)
Child Neurology - Cornell
Faculty Position - IEI/Vanderbilt
Internal Medicine - UAB
Neurology - UPenn
Neurosurgery - UAB
Pathology - Brigham
Pathology - UPenn

WashU (source: website)
Child Neurology - UPenn
Child Neurology - Rochester
Dermatology - U of Washington
Dermatology - U of Washington
Internal Medicine - Brigham
Internal Medicine - MGH
Internal Medicine - Stanford
Internal Medicine - UPenn
Internal Medicine - UT Southwestern
Internal Medicine - WashU
Neurology - UCSF
Neurology - UCSF
Orthopaedic Surgery - UCI
Pathology - Brigham
Pathology - MGH
Pathology - UCSF
Pediatrics - WashU
Pathology - WashU
Psychiatry - MGH
Psychiatry - WashU
Radiology - WashU

Minnesota (source: crossreferenced match list to website)
Dermatology - Minnesota
Internal Medicine - Chicago
Internal Medicine - Minnesota
Psychiatry - Wisconsin
Deferred
Deferred

Einstein (source: website)
Anesthesiology - Stanford
Emergency Medicine - NYU
Internal Medicine - Mt. Sinai
Neurology - Partners/Harvard
Ophthalmology - MEEI/Harvard
Orthopaedic Surgery - UCDavis
Pathology - Brigham
Pathology - Montefiore/Einstein
Pediatrics - Harbor/UCLA
Radiology - BID
Radiology - Montefiore/Einstein

U of Washington (source: website)
Internal Medicine - U of Washington
Internal Medicine - U of Washington
Internal Medicine - U of Washington
OB/GYN - USC
Pathology - Brigham
Pathology - Stanford
Pathology - U of Washington
Radiology - U of Washington
Radiology - U of Washington
Deferred (Postdoc)
Unknown
Unknown

Emory (source: PM)
Internal Medicine - Johns Hopkins
Neurology - Partners/Harvard
Pediatrics - UPenn

Vanderbilt (source: crossreferenced match list to website)
Anesthesiology - Stanford
Internal Medicine - Brigham
Internal Medicine - MGH
Internal Medicine - Northwestern
Internal Medicine - Vanderbilt
Neurology - UPenn
OB/GYN - Stanford
Pediatrics - Vanderbilt
Urology - Cornell

Iowa (source: website)
Anesthesiology - UAB
Anesthesiology - WashU
Pediatrics - Iowa
Patholgy - Iowa
Psychiatry - Columbia/NYPH
Emergency Medicine - UNM
Internal Medicine - U Michigan
Dermatology - NYU
Oto - Iowa
Rad Onc - Iowa

Yale (source:cross-referenced match list to web site)
Dermatology – Yale
Internal Medicine – Brigham
Internal Medicine – MGH
Internal Medicine – Yale
Internal Medicine/Research – Mayo
Neurosurgery – MGH
Pediatrics – CHOP
Plastic Surgery – Stanford
Psychiatry – Yale
Radiation Oncology – MSKCC
Radiation Oncology – UCSF
Radiology – Michigan
International Health Policy and Research

Doctor&Geek said:

Pittsburgh (source: crossreferenced matchlist to website)
Dermatology - UPenn
Internal Medicine - Pitt
Internal Medicine - Pitt
Neurology - UCLA
Radiology - Johns Hopkins

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We actually have 2 MS4's going into pediatrics, both matched at CHOP

Revised list for Pitt:
Dermatology - UPenn
Internal Medicine - Pitt
Internal Medicine - Pitt
Neurology - UCLA
Pediatrics - UPenn/CHOP
Pediatrics - UPenn/CHOP
Radiology - Johns Hopkins

.

General Surgery - UMich
Internal Medicine (Research) - Cornell (Presbyterian)
Pathology - UPMC
Radiation Oncology - Henry Ford

Is it just me, or is that a lot of Harvard students for one year? 2004-2006 there were 13-15 graduates/year.

UTSW Source: PDF sent to UTSW students
UTSW (Neurology)
UTSW (Prelim)/UCSD (Radiology)
MGH (IM)
UTSW (prelim)/UCSF (Derm)
UCSF (Peds)
UTSW (Peds)
Pitt County Memorial Hospital (IM)
George Washington U (IM)
Hopkins (IM)
UT Houston (IM)
UCSF (Path)
Yale (IM)
Banes Jewish WashU (Neuro)
UTSW (Prelim)/ Harvard (Child Neuro)
Defer

Anyone got the #'s for Columbia? I wonder how many dermatology residents they place a year. There seems to be a lot of exciting new skin researchers coming out of some of the top places... Thanks for any info! Yale would be interesting too.

.

Penn (Source: Internal e-mail)
Internal medicine - Harvard (Brigham & Women's)
Internal medicine - Penn (HUP)
Neurology - Penn (HUP)
Pediatrics - UCSF
Internal medicine - Duke
Opthalmology - SUNY Stony Brook
Anesthesia - Penn (HUP)
Pathology - Harvard (Mass General)
Anesthesia - Johns Hopkins
Pathology - UCSF
Neurology - Penn (HUP)
Ophthalmology - USC
Dermatology - St. Luke's-Roosevelt-NY
Orthopaedic surgery - Penn (HUP)
Pediatrics - Columbia
Internal medicine - Harvard (Brigham & Women's)
Radiation oncology - MD Anderson
Radiology - Penn (HUP)
Pediatrics - Penn (CHOP)
Pediatrics - Harvard (Boston Children's)
Dermatology - Yale
Radiology - Penn (HUP)
Radiology - Penn (HUP)
Pediatrics - Penn (CHOP)

Dr.Watson said:

Thanks Myempire1 and D&G!

And yes, it does seem like a lot of Harvard grads for one year. Anyone know the explanation? Maybe they're getting people out faster these days and they're graduating with the longer mstps?

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It's a combination of a couple of things--as you point out, this year was sort of a perfect storm between people who took longer (9-10 yrs) and people who are going through faster (7-8 years, though 7 is less common). This is most likely a result of structural changes instituted here a couple of years ago. Also, there are a variable number of HST (almost invariably HST, not NP) students who come in "second cycle" after the 2nd year of med school.

In case you're curious, here's the breakdown in terms of overall length:

6 yrs: 1
7 yrs: 4
8 yrs: 8
9 yrs: 12
10 yrs: 3

.

Derm - UTSW
IM - Brigham and Women's
Ortho - CCF
OB - UAB
Peds - Rainbow Babies
Peds - UCSF
Rad/Onc - USC

Doctor&Geek said:

I'm surprised - 200 matches, nary a single general surgery match!

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see my post above

~1/200, still a very small crowd! maybe i will improve that stats in a few years.

UCSF
UPenn - neurology
UPenn - internal medicine
UCSF - psychiatry
UCSF - neurology
Hopkins - opthalmology
Brigham & Women's - internal medicine
MA Eye & Ear Infirmary - otolaryngology
Brigham & Women's - internal medicine
MGH - internal medicine
UCSF - dermatology
Yale - psychiatry

.

Dr.Watson said:

Hah, that's why all those programs with 7 yr averages are looking quite nice to those of us about to begin =).

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Don't fool yourself- ADCOMS fudge all the data anyway. If you want a real feel for how long it takes, you have to find the older MSTP students.

gbwillner said:

Don't fool yourself- ADCOMS fudge all the data anyway. If you want a real feel for how long it takes, you have to find the older MSTP students.

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Amen to that. It's amazing how even at the "7.5" programs, there's more than a few niners floating around. Gosh I hope it's not me. I might even "know" it won't be me, but I doubt anyone enters a 7.5 program thinking they'll be the niner..

.

Neuronix said:

Yeah, how many programs have 7 year averages these days? I mean Penn has a 7.5x year average if you pool everyone who's ever done the program. If you just take the past few years, it's more like 7.9x.

But this trend is happening at all schools. The requirements to get a PhD in science just keep increasing. Things like "3 publications to PhD" are becoming more absurd in a world where each publication needs to tell a long story on its own.

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Agreed--very few programs have an average near 7. Much more common is 7.5-8 years. The thing about averages is that they are just that--averages. There is a spread, with some students taking less time 6-7 and others taking more 8-9.

At my program, there has been a dramatic decrease in time to graduation since they instituted some major changes (i.e. reduced rotations, ability to take grad school classes during the first two years, reduced class requirements, pushing students to take the oral exam after 1 year in grad school, requiring thesis committee meetings every 6 months, etc). Goes to show how much streamlining can help. So there are some "holdovers" from the old system that are finally graduating after 9-10 years, as well as students who have benefited by the current system and are finishing in the more reasonable 7-8 years total.

Nonetheless, as Neuronix points out, the bar is constantly being raised for the acceptability of manuscripts, which makes absolute requirements ridiculous. The truth is though that publications are important--even those from graduate school for MD/PhD students. It will look peculiar to residency programs if one has a PhD but no publications. This is especially true for combined residency/fellowship molecular medicine programs that are very competitive.

I agree with the statement above. Our school has about a 8.5 year average right now. I would say that up through last year, about 50% got out in 8 years, 35% in 9-10 years, 15% in 7 years.

The administration at our school realized how long the grad school was taking our students and have adjusted our requirements a little. They now allow us to return to 3rd year anytime between July and Jan 1. This gives us more flexibility with defending and returning. We are also excused from a few month's worth of 4th year electives.

Because of this change, I am going back in late summer/fall and will save a year.... Too bad my MS4 will be a less chill though...

voojagig said:

Anyone got the #'s for Columbia? I wonder how many dermatology residents they place a year.

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Columbia 07:
Anesthesia - U Michigan
Rad Onc - UCSF
IM - Barnes-Jewish (Wash U)
Peds - Columbia
Psych - Stanford
Deferred

Small graduating class this year; we're 7 and 8 years off from two entering classes that were both unusually small (7 students each).

I don't recall any MSTP students going into derm recently but there are a lot of straight-MD students who do it.

To get out in 7 takes hard work, the right project, and luck. Much of it is institution and department dependent, but if you want to get out sooner:

1. choose your rotations wisely and find a lab early...this way you can hit the ground running in your thesis lab once Step 1 is out of the way.

2. get your grad school requirements out of the way ASAP - get all your classes done and your qualifying exams/prelims done in the first year if at all possible.

3. pick your committee wisely...they will decide when you can finish, meet with them often (q6mo), and always make them feel good about you getting a PhD in only 3-4 years when a trad grad student may take 5-7 (be productive, present your data well, know your stuff). make sure your committee knows from day 1 that you are MSTP and that you will be going back in 3-4 years.

4. don't waste time in the lab...you can be super productive without having to work crazy hours/weekends if you don't waste time in the lab (e.g. surfing the internet while your gel is running rather than reading the lit or setting up another experiment that could be done at the same time)

5. but...you still need to work your butt off. nightimes, weekends, etc...it happens.

6. get lucky...sometimes the hardest workers with the best laid plans still end up taking 5 years...that's how science is.

7. it is not the end of the world if it takes a little longer to go back. if you finish up in the late fall, it might be worth it to stick around for another 8mo and try to crank out another paper - this will help you in the long run and data comes more easily the longer you have been in a lab. Plus, you will be going back and competing against 3rd years who have been in clinical rotations for several months now - you will most likely be outshined and have worse evals. Although if you've been in your PhD for more than 5years, it's probably time to get back whenever you can.

Neuronix said:

Yeah, how many programs have 7 year averages these days? I mean Penn has a 7.5x year average if you pool everyone who's ever done the program. If you just take the past few years, it's more like 7.9x.

But this trend is happening at all schools. The requirements to get a PhD in science just keep increasing. Things like "3 publications to PhD" are becoming more absurd in a world where each publication needs to tell a long story on its own.

Click to expand...

Absolutely true, especially with regard to the publication sizes. Although, 3 people in my original class are finishing this year (in 7 yrs). Though myself and at least one other person could have really pushed it like 2 of them did (ie, going back to clinics while mice were being rederived and while the committee is reading the thesis and having minimal elective time) but it just seemed like too much work and I needed more time to finish a story/choose a specialty, etc. It is a rare bird indeed that just "happens" to finish in 7 these years, and more common in the less biological fields. However, you can make it happen if you REALLY want it by following greg's advice above (though I would add that having a sympathetic PhD advisor is a sine qua non that was left out of an otherwise excellent post).

But the average still ends up around 7.9 because along with those 3 there are folks who have been here for 9-10 years

greg12345 said:

To get out in 7 takes hard work, the right project, and luck. Much of it is institution and department dependent, but if you want to get out sooner:

1. choose your rotations wisely and find a lab early...this way you can hit the ground running in your thesis lab once Step 1 is out of the way.

2. get your grad school requirements out of the way ASAP - get all your classes done and your qualifying exams/prelims done in the first year if at all possible.

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This was all really great advice, especially #1 and #2. I've seen MANY MD-PhDs waste a year by not doing those things. I'll also say that PIs at many "top" labs, in my experience, will throw you out of their offices if you march in and say that you "have to" graduate in 4 years, let alone 3 (I've seen that happen to MD-PhDs as well). So it's a balancing act, and I think that using 7 years as a goal these days is a little bit unrealistic but 8 should be do-able.

Peds - Rainbow Babies (CWRU)
Peds - UCSF
Rad Onc - USC
Derm - UTSW
OB/GYN - Univ of Alabama
Ortho - Cleveland Clinic
Internal Medicine - Stanford
Internal Medicine - Brigham and Women's

My program (VCU/MCV) is pushing for 6 years now (2yrs med, then 3 years PhD, then one year rotations). I am in the 2nd year of the PhD and will likely not be able to finish by one year from now (which would be necessary to match in 2009) but will likely have 6 months off at the end for a post-doc or something. Our new dean doesn't want the MD/PhD to take more than 7 years.

Perhaps it should be pointed out that there a multitude of reasons why people don't "get out" of their PhD's in minimal time, aside from bad luck, poor planning, lack of program support etc... One that I've seen reasonably commonly around here is that people like graduate school, and as a result, sticking around for a bit longer doesn't seem like such a bad thing. Not that people are intent on staying indefinitely, or don't want to eventually go back to medical school - but as I saw my classmates hit 3rd year, and shortly, intern year, my response was not lament that I couldn't be with them, but a sort of relief that it wasn't me yet. There is a lot of interesting stuff to do while you have the flexibility/freedom of grad school - might as well enjoy it while it lasts.

Here is me at each stage of the program over the past 7.5 years:

MS1: yeah, i'm in med school! this is cool!

MS1.5: man, memorizing is getting old

MS 2: memorizing is getting REALLY old

MS 2.5 + pre-STEP 1: ugh, med school sucks, can't wait for grad school to start

PHD1: grad school is amazing! set your own schedule, no more memorizing, my project is a sure fire science paper, guaranteed!

PHD2: now that prelims/classes are done, grad school is EVEN better

PHD3: man, my classmates are all graduated and in residency, the data flow is now a trickle, and the end is nowhere in sight...starting to get bummed out

PHD4: JUST LET ME ESCAPE THE LAB AND GET BACK, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE

MS3: finally back, loving it! way more exciting than gels, blots, mice!

MS3.5: OB-GYN - it would almost be worth it to drop out and become a garbage man rather than finish this rotation

MS4: my friends from med school are attendings, 1st year fellows, or making bank in private practice. at least this is the most amazing year ever.

MS4 (post-match, which is me now): tough decisions to make now - go to the beach or play golf tomorrow? life can be hard sometimes.

Amen to whoever mentioned that having a sympathetic or understanding PI is absolutely key to getting out in a reasonable timeframe. It also helps if your PI has had MD/PhDs previously in the lab and understands that you are in a unique situation. My advisor had never had a MD/PhD before but early on we had talks about "the future" and it was understood that I was hoping to go back in 4 years as long as the data was there, which my boss was totally supportive of. Made all the difference in the world b/c my boss was always thinking along the lines of "well, we'll have time to pursue this aspect of the project and finish this story before June of 2005", etc.

I think that shooting for a 6y MD/PhD is pretty crazy. 1 year of clinical rotations? Do you apply for residency at the beginning of MS3 before you have had any clinical exposure? More importantly, what about MS4 which is the single greatest thing ever invented in the history of mankind? In my opinion an 8 year MSTP is the ideal balance - allows you still have a reasonable lifestyle in grad school without absolutely killing yourself as long as you use your time wisely, but you don't enter residency wearing Depends. I'm just biased b/c it took me 8 though!

greg12345 said:

Amen to whoever mentioned that having a sympathetic or understanding PI is absolutely key to getting out in a reasonable timeframe. It also helps if your PI has had MD/PhDs previously in the lab and understands that you are in a unique situation. My advisor had never had a MD/PhD before but early on we had talks about "the future" and it was understood that I was hoping to go back in 4 years as long as the data was there, which my boss was totally supportive of. Made all the difference in the world b/c my boss was always thinking along the lines of "well, we'll have time to pursue this aspect of the project and finish this story before June of 2005", etc.

I think that shooting for a 6y MD/PhD is pretty crazy. 1 year of clinical rotations? Do you apply for residency at the beginning of MS3 before you have had any clinical exposure? More importantly, what about MS4 which is the single greatest thing ever invented in the history of mankind? In my opinion an 8 year MSTP is the ideal balance - allows you still have a reasonable lifestyle in grad school without absolutely killing yourself as long as you use your time wisely, but you don't enter residency wearing Depends. I'm just biased b/c it took me 8 though!

Click to expand...

Completely agree with you. What specialty did you match in? Future plans??

Doctor&Geek said:

Most of MS4 is a worthless waste of time if you know what you want to do and how to do it - no loss to me.

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I agree with this for the most part. A large part of MS4 is taken up by things like vacation and electives such as "Wilderness Medicine." Of course, it would be great to do another sub-I or do a rotation in the ER, but you will have these experiences during residency for sure and you will catch up. As an MD-PhD who had only 1 post-PhD clinical year, I'm a little bit afraid that I haven't spent as much time with patients as some of my MS 4 colleagues. However, many of them are also afraid because they haven't laid hands on a patient in 6 months (because they were enjoying things like "Wilderness Medicine"), whereas I finished my surgery rotation 2 months ago. I do regret the fact that I didn't do as much FP as my colleagues. I feel that this is real bread and butter that I will never see again as a highly specialized academic whatever.

Residency programs certainly want to see how you did in clinical rotations before they let you in, but this doesn't mean that you have to do 2 clinical years. You should complete internal medicine (at our school, this is done before the PhD). You should also do another major required rotation, such as pediatrics, OB-gyn or surgery, as well as a sub-I. In addition, you should do the rotation in the area you're intersted in going into. All of these should be completed before your Dean's letter goes out (usually mid-October). This will be enough for residencies to evaulate you. I know, because everyone in our school does this and we have had no difficulties with the match. They understand what it means to be an MD-PhD and know from their own experience that having only 1 clinical year won't make you a bad resident.

Please don't take this wrong way and this is just my opinion, but I see some serious disadvantages to organizing an MD/PhD program that way.

1. MS4 certainly has the potential to be a total waste of time, but I think there is something to be said even for that. I have essentially 6 months of vacation. This is the last really carefree time in my life before I enter the grind for 30+ years...I guess I could go roaring into internship straight out of my clinical clerkships, but I kinda like the chance to recharge my batteries, play with my kids, etc. before all hell breaks loose and I am q4 for 9mo. Plus, not all 4th year electives are total throwaways like wilderness medicine...ICU months are great and even cush subspecialty months can be of benefit (e.g. derm). I learned more in 4 weeks in the MICU than I did in all the rest of med school. I only did 4 months in 4th year, but those were 4 quality months with no throwaways (solid primary care bread/butter outpt medicine, hard core bread/butter inpatient medicine, MICU, and neurology) and I definitely feel like I am much stronger/more competent clinically now than I was at the end of 3rd year. Although I will still wet my pants my first call night.

2. Doing IM before PhD: What if you want to do IM? Does it matter that your LORs are 5 years old? Are you able to shine on an IM sub-I and get that great LOR when your original IM clerkship was 4 years ago? I don't know about you, but I'm stupid enough where I could barely remember what my name was after 4 years of grad school, let alone the DDx for acute renal failure.

3. So then you do IM, plus one other required rotation, plus a Sub-I before applying for residency? What if you are trying to decide between anesthesia, rad onc, and radiology? Do you just have to pick one Sub-I to do and decide that is what you want to match in? What if one is early match like Urology? What if you are trying to decide between IM, Peds, ENT, Rad Onc? Are you screwed because there is no possible way to test them all out before you have to apply to residency?

4. Step 2 CK, CS, interviews in the middle of clerkships like surgery, ob-gyn, etc. not to mention studying for SHELFS??? What if you are going for derm or rad onc and have to interview at 40+ rad-onc and prelim programs? When is there time for this? Do you hold your bowels from Nov to Feb to save precious time? More power to you if you can pull this off, but sounds crazy to me.

5. Just curious - is your 6y program MD/PhD or MSTP?

I totally agree with you that residents could be totally competent (even outstanding) with only one year of clinical training under their belt, and that there is definitely something to be said for a 6y MD/PhD track especially if you planning to be primarily a basic scientist with minimal clinical time. But logistically and from a stress/lifestyle perspective it sounds brutal. And then you go straight into a hell year of internship? Y'all are tougher than me.

OK, I need to go to bed now because I am going to the pool tomorrow and I need at least 11h of sleep tonight. Ahhh 4th year!!!!

I agree with greg12345 - 4th year is great. It is great to be able to do a couple of away electives and take some time to study for step 2. The first part of my 4th year was pretty busy with a couple of required rotations, step 2 CK and CS, away rotations, and residency interviews. After being in med/grad school for over 7 years, it is almost necessary to have a real break before starting residency. Plus, the great thing about 4th year rotations is that there is no exam associated with them. That makes a huge difference. You can concentrate on the subtle features, rather than having to constantly study for a braod shelf exam. It takes the stress out and allows you to enjoy and glean more. 4th year rocks!

I should clarify...our program (MD/PhD) is shifting students toward shorter finishing times. I think it would be next to impossible to finish in exactly 6 years...more likely it takes 6.5 years, and you're left with 6-8 months off (many students do a post-doc in their original labs during this period). Also, while we are not required to do the M4, you can still take any electives you like as if you were in the M4 year. We still get full tuition waviers and stipends during this time. So my specific example is: 2 yrs medschool completed, now approaching 2 yrs in the lab. If I could finish and defend by next March (very unlikely...that would be 2.5 yrs for the PhD) I could enter M3 in April. I could get maybe 2-3 rotations in and then interview, and match that March. More than likely I will not finish the PhD until that July/August (3 full years for the PhD), rotate back into M3 with the new incoming class, interview and match with that class that will be doing the M4 while I am in a post-doc position (or just taking a few months off for travel/leisure). No way will it take any of our students 8-9 years. We have one student in his 5th year of the PhD and he will very likely be the last...I think our new dean is sending memos to all PI's (and making suggestions on which PI's and committee members are "MD/PhD friendly") saying plan on 3 years max for MD/PhD students.