DAT Harder/Easier-The Myth Part 2

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doc toothache

doc toothache

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For those who still believe that the DAT has gotten harder over the past year, you may want to check out the January-December 2006 DAT Frequency Tables which have recently been released. For comparison, the statistics from the recent past are included. Some might argue, that, if anything, the changes in the mean scores would indicate that the DAT has gotten easier. However, before you all trip on your keyboard, you might notice that the reported scores are only for first time examinees which numbered 8936. Keep in mind that the total number of applicants who took the DAT during 2006 is closer to ~12.5K. An earlier post addressed the DAT scores and the number of applicants who took the DAT multiple times.

www.ada.org/prof/ed/testing/dat/dat_score_frequency.pdf and

www.ada.org/prof/ed/testing/dat/dat_users_manual.pdf

DAT Frequency Tables


Code: 
	2000	2004	2005	2006


QR	16.73	16.31	16.34	16.83
QR SD	3.27	3.22	3.37	3.48
RC	19.35	18.89	19.03	19.31
RC SD	2.94	3.05	2.89	2.87
Bio	17.32	17.24	17.35	17.77
Bio SD	2.74	2.64	2.67	2.84
Chem	17.27	17.15	17.35	17.90
Chem SD	3.50	3.47	3.49	3.64
Org	17.34	16.99	17.01	17.58
Org SD	3.66	3.71	3.73	3.95
SNS	17.25	17.12	17.21	17.69
SNS SD	2.72	2.68	2.72	2.89
AA	17.60	17.31	17.42	17.88
AA SD	2.56	2.54	2.57	2.70
PA	17.19	16.35	17.19	17.44
PA SD	2.85	2.44	2.79	2.86

Count 	7231	11358	12528	8936
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Where is the 2007 stat? Without that, this thread doesn't mean much.

Because, it is the people who took in 2007 are complaining that it has gotten harder, not the one who took in 2006 and prior.
 
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DailyDrivenTJ said:
Where is the 2007 stat? Without that, this thread doesn't mean much.

Because, it is the people who took in 2007 are complaining that it has gotten harder, not the one who took in 2006 and prior.
Click to expand...

Let's see... we are in June and you already want to know the 2007 stats. Unless you are using a different calendar than some of us use, we are not quite half way there yet.

In terms of complaints about the DAT getting harder, you can rest assured that the 2007 group is not the first nor will it be the last to make such claims. You could be right about this thread not meaning much. On the other hand, if you refreshed your understanding of standardized tests and on the fundamentals of statistical inference we might be having a different dialog.
 
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I wonder if you did an ANOVA what the p-value would be. My guess is that it'd be >0.05.
 
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it is those students who took the DAT since Jan. 1, 2007 who have said it has gotten harder, not the 2004-2006 students. By the end of 2007 we will surely see a slight decrease in those means.
 
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dantheman2007 said:
it is those students who took the DAT since Jan. 1, 2007 who have said it has gotten harder, not the 2004-2006 students. By the end of 2007 we will surely see a slight decrease in those means.
Click to expand...

Well, that will probably make ADCOM's selection task easier this year.;)
 
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doc toothache said:
Let's see... we are in June and you already want to know the 2007 stats. Unless you are using a different calendar than some of us use, we are not quite half way there yet.

In terms of complaints about the DAT getting harder, you can rest assured that the 2007 group is not the first nor will it be the last to make such claims. You could be right about this thread not meaning much. On the other hand, if you refreshed your understanding of standardized tests and on the fundamentals of statistical inference we might be having a different dialog.
Click to expand...

It is purely obvious that you are not understanding what I am saying. I KNOW the 2007 stat is not up. To answer your smart a$$ comment, no I am not using a different calendar as rest of you use.

I said,

"Where is the 2007 stat? Without that, this thread doesn't mean much.

Because, it is the people who took in 2007 are complaining that it has gotten harder, not the one who took in 2006 and prior."

If you want to tell them that the DAT has not changed in terms of difficulty, give them the data that means something to them. Obviously such data is not available thus this post has not much meaning to them.

As far as if the future data will correlate with the rest of the stat is a purely speculation at the moment. Talk about STATS all you want, I am not supporting the idea that the scores will be higher or lower. I am talking in terms of the merit of this very post with the 2007 DAT takers and their complaints about the difficulty of the test.

Do you understand now? If you don't understand that, let me know, I will give you the exact same reply.:D

Don't "refresh" me about the standardized test . I know what they are. Tell me something I don't know.:D
 
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To be honest, I have thought the same thing - this stat doesn't mean much since it is mainly the 2007 test that people think has gotten harder. I know that there are always some people who would complain about the test's difficulty, but it is much more so this year.
 
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DailyDrivenTJ said:
"Where is the 2007 stat? Without that, this thread doesn't mean much.

Because, it is the people who took in 2007 are complaining that it has gotten harder, not the one who took in 2006 and prior."

If you want to tell them that the DAT has not changed in terms of difficulty, give them the data that means something to them. Obviously such data is not available thus this post has not much meaning to them.

As far as if the future data will correlate with the rest of the stat is a purely speculation at the moment. Talk about STATS all you want, I am not supporting the idea that the scores will be higher or lower. I am talking in terms of the merit of this very post with the 2007 DAT takers and their complaints about the difficulty of the test.

Tell me something I don't know.:D
Click to expand...

Since you seem to know everything, this may prove to be too much of a challenge.

However, let's see if we clarify a few things. The first time takers can only make the claim that the DAT is hard, but certainly not harder. Only those who re-took the test for 2nd through 9th time could make that claim. What the 07 group expressed is not much different than the ones expressed by the 06 group. However, anecdotal evidence a trend does not make.


In any case, whether the test was harder or not is not particularly relevant. Even if a given version of the test was more difficult than others, the grades are adjusted to meet a certain norm. This practice is common at universities and dental schools as well.


bkim said:
To be honest, I have thought the same thing - this stat doesn't mean much since it is mainly the 2007 test that people think has gotten harder. I know that there are always some people who would complain about the test's difficulty, but it is much more so this year.
Click to expand...

Contrary to what you two believe, there is a great deal of relevance to the statistical information of the past. It does show that, in spite of all of the possible changes over the years, including the changes in the material covered, the mean averages remain virtually unchanged. You can rest assured that, when the 2007 statistics are in, there will not be much change in the mean scores.
 
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doc toothache said:
Since you seem to know everything, this may prove to be too much of a challenge.

However, let's see if we clarify a few things. The first time takers can only make the claim that the DAT is hard, but certainly not harder. Only those who re-took the test for 2nd through 9th time could make that claim. What the 07 group expressed is not much different than the ones expressed by the 06 group. However, anecdotal evidence a trend does not make.


In any case, whether the test was harder or not is not particularly relevant. Even if a given version of the test was more difficult than others, the grades are adjusted to meet a certain norm. This practice is common at universities and dental schools as well.




Contrary to what you two believe, there is a great deal of relevance to the statistical information of the past. It does show that, in spite of all of the possible changes over the years, including the changes in the material covered, the mean averages remain virtually unchanged. You can rest assured that, when the 2007 statistics are in, there will not be much change in the mean scores.
Click to expand...
It seems that the DAT has been revised/changed sometime early this year. It's just a reasonable guess, I know I have no solid evident to support it. If that's true, we won't know for sure until later when the 07/08 data comes out.
 
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bkim said:
To be honest, I have thought the same thing - this stat doesn't mean much since it is mainly the 2007 test that people think has gotten harder. I know that there are always some people who would complain about the test's difficulty, but it is much more so this year.
Click to expand...

Take it from someone who has been around for 2 years now - people ALWAYS claim it's getting harder. 2007 isn't any different than the years before.
Which should be good news...

If they did make it harder, they would have to let everyone know that the 2007 tests cannot be compared to the tests from the previous years. Because if they don't that totally nullifies the point of a standardized test. And don't forget that your DAT score is good for 3 years.

When they revamped the SAT, they made it clear that scores from year XXXX and up were not compared to those of XXXX-1 and down
 
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doc toothache said:
Since you seem to know everything, this may prove to be too much of a challenge.
Click to expand...

Can you make any come back without smart a$$ comments like that? Reply after reply.. That works only when you are right and looks really pitiful when you are wrong. :D

Read what I have posted.

I will re-type what I typed before like I said before. :smuggrin:

"As far as if the future data will correlate with the rest of the stat is a purely speculation at the moment. Talk about STATS all you want, I am not supporting the idea that the scores will be higher or lower. I am talking in terms of the merit of this very post with the 2007 DAT takers and their complaints about the difficulty of the test."

Please re-read and understand the underlined post before stating what you THINK and CLAIM I believe. You seemed to have a problem reading between the lines.

I underlined key points for you.:thumbup:
 
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DailyDrivenTJ said:
..."As far as if the future data will correlate with the rest of the stat is a purely speculation at the moment. ... I am not supporting the idea that the scores will be higher or lower. ...

...You seemed to have a problem reading between the lines...
Click to expand...


Nothing supports better how strongly you believe in your conviction than taking a non committal stand.

One might be tempted to read between the lines if there was something within the lines.

As far as the 07 stats go, a course in statistics would not hurt or you can wait the year out to convince yourself of the obvious.
 
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Hey I havent posted so much but I ve been around over a year now. It seems that whats happening this summer is the same thing that happened last year. Those who took the test from January-May seem to claim the test is harder and then as the summer goes on these claims seem to fizzle as more and more 22's 23's 24's and even 25's start showing up on SDN. Personally this seems like it could be that those who take the DAT in the summer spend more time (and I mean concentrated time) studying and therefore do better. Of those who took the DAT in Jan and Feb, many had to juggle additional schoolwork and couldnt focus completely on the DAT. By the summers end when 23's are commonplace I expect the claims that the DAT is SO MUCH HARDER THIS YEAR to be the exception thread, not one in every three.
 
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doc toothache said:
Nothing supports better how strongly you believe in your conviction than taking a non committal stand.

One might be tempted to read between the lines if there was something within the lines.

As far as the 07 stats go, a course in statistics would not hurt or you can wait the year out to convince yourself of the obvious.
Click to expand...

Once again! Alright let's see how many times you can make smart a$$ comments like that without much argument.

Claim after claim, why do make so many claims of your own interpretation and call it good? Are you like this in real life? You like feeding words in people's mouth don't you? I hate when people do that. It is not someone else's fault if you don't get it.

conviction mahass.

You are so entertaining and amazing, doc toothache! :D
 
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I've never understood why it matters if they make it harder. It is a standaradized test so even if it is harder, the scores will just be distributed differently. It seems to me that only the raw scores would change, not the actual scores.
 
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I will make myself clear and I am out.

toothache argues that the test has not gotten harder and he presents statistical data FROM the PAST to PROVE the CURRENT issue.

In a nutshell, what I am saying is presenting a statistical data to "prove" something is somwhat stupid and it is only a speculation because it did not happened yet. He is judging the difficulty of the test based on the statistical data. 2007 stat is not available, 2007 ain't over yet. Tell me that you are NOT guessing what 2007 stat is going to be like, toothache.

It might be a good indicator for what it likely to be but it sure ain't no proof. If you say this is debunking myth, then you need to get your myth straight about statistic. Like I said, I could careless if it will go up or down or even stays the same, but what I am saying is toothache's this very post does nothing but speculation using old data.

I don't like hearing excuses how the test has gotten harder to justify lack of scores, but I am sure no a$$hole to publicly shut people up like this and actually make them believe without a proof. There isn't any proof until next year, period.
 
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DailyDrivenTJ said:
I will make myself clear and I am out.

toothache argues that the test has not gotten harder and he presents statistical data FROM the PAST to PROVE the CURRENT issue.

In a nutshell, what I am saying is presenting a statistical data to "prove" something is somwhat stupid and it is only a speculation because it did not happened yet. He is judging the difficulty of the test based on the statistical data. 2007 stat is not available, 2007 ain't over yet. Tell me that you are NOT guessing what 2007 stat is going to be like, toothache.

It might be a good indicator for what it likely to be but it sure ain't no proof. If you say this is debunking myth, then you need to get your myth straight about statistic. Like I said, I could careless if it will go up or down or even stays the same, but what I am saying is toothache's this very post does nothing but speculation using old data.

I don't like hearing excuses how the test has gotten harder to justify lack of scores, but I am sure no a$$hole to publicly shut people up like this and actually make them believe without a proof. There isn't any proof until next year, period.
Click to expand...

I totally agree with you and even take it a step further. I think that comparing scaled scores to measure test difficulty is fundamentally flawed. When the test is scaled, it is supposed to remove the element of test difficulty. Comparing scores after this is done should result in similar scores across the board (as has occured here). If you want to see if a test has become harder over time, you would need to compare the raw scores that were used to compute the scaled scores above and see if they changed over time.
 
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People think the dat had gotten harder because we don't know or we haven't gotten any tips from those who had recently taken the dat. Over the past decade(s), the same old 4 versions (some might ask me to prove it, I'd say do an achieve search, I don't have the time to dig up evidents) of the dat had been reused and many people had somewhat gotten ideas of what the questions was like, or even the exact same questions. It helped people to focus on the parts that might be tested on. Unfortunately the new version had just come out (see above) and IMO, that is the reason people claim the dat had gotten hard.
 
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