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DO Anes

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I am an academic physician and AOA Health Policy Fellow. Osteopathic medicine is in trouble and your help is needed. Our colleges are rapidly expanding without regard to preposterous levels of tuition, postgraduate education or overall quality. The Rocky Vista shcool in Denver will be the first for-profit medical school in the US since 1935, when all for-profit schools were intentionally closed. It is owned by the same investors who own the American University of the Caribbean in St. Maarten. When this becomes widely known, it will destroy our credibility in the medical world. DO's will be seen as the lowest of the low and the profession will be regarded as just another money making scheme. THIS CANNOT BE ALLOWED TO STAND. We are a concerned group of DO's, trying to get the following resolution across:

Whereas the Flexner Report of 1910 is widely regarded as having helped reform both osteopathic and allopathic medical education and has served as a continuing reference for judging the quality of contemporary medical schools, and
Whereas Abraham Flexner was highly critical in his Report of for-profit medical education, noting : “Such exploitation of medical education, is strangely inconsistent with the social aspects of medical practice. In modern life the medical profession is an organ differentiated by society for its highest purposes, not a business to be exploited.", and
Whereas all for-profit schools of osteopathic and allopathic medicine in the U.S. were either converted into not for profit institutions, or were forced to close by 1935, and
Whereas osteopathic medical education should be held to a standard at least equal to, if not exceeding, allopathic medical education, and
Whereas the accreditation standards of the Liaison Committee on Medical Education (LCME) explicitly prohibits for-profit medical schools, therefore be it resolved that,
The House of Delegates strongly disapproves the establishment of any college of osteopathic medicine operated on a for-profit basis.

Get the word out and write to everyone you know. Get involved. At any official gathering, wear the following name badge:
I DISAPPROVE!
DOCTORS NOT DOLLARS
If this generation does not act, the profession will perish.
Members don't see this ad.
 
Who can be contacted, and what, if any, discussion on this topic is taking place at the higher levels of the AOA? I know that the AOA has stated in the past that it is not in charge of accreditation, but that seems to be a pass-the-buck kind of response. If the AOA were to pass a resolution condemning the idea of a for profit medical school and refuse to acknowledge the school as a valid osteopathic medical school (despite COCA's accrediation), I would think that would have serious ramifications.

Nearly every student and physician I've talked to on this issue has weighed in heavily against the idea of a for-profit medical school. Who is in charge of this and why are they not listening to the profession they exist to serve? It's embarrassing that the school would even be considered accreditation status.

Edit: Found this for those interested...
...I invite you to officially communicate your position on for-profit schools by writing a letter to COCA and addressing it to:

Dr. Konrad Miskowicz-Retz, PhD,
Secretary Commission on Osteopathic College Accreditation
142 E. Ontario Street
Chicago, IL 60611
Click to expand...
 
Despite strong popular opposition to the for-profit school, we are having a hard time getting a resolution to the membership for a vote. Pressure on the AOA delegates and trustees will show that we do not approve of this. The AOA is a membership organization. It is time for the membership to be heard.
I DISAPPROVE!
DOCTORS NOT DOLLARS
 
Members don't see this ad :)
OP - I understand your frustration, but what makes you think this school will not just be viewed as a Carrib. osteopathic school that happens to be inside the US boarders?

I mean, everything I have seen about the school heebs me out and I am sure will have the same effect on residency directors, hospital administrators, etc.
 
the name alone makes me disapprove of the school.

i was a student of the future dean... although he's a very good teacher, i cannot support the expansion of this institution.
 
DO Anes said:
I am an academic physician and AOA Health Policy Fellow. Osteopathic medicine is in trouble and your help is needed. Our colleges are rapidly expanding without regard to preposterous levels of tuition, postgraduate education or overall quality. The Rocky Vista shcool in Denver will be the first for-profit medical school in the US since 1935, when all for-profit schools were intentionally closed. It is owned by the same investors who own the American University of the Caribbean in St. Maarten. When this becomes widely known, it will destroy our credibility in the medical world. DO's will be seen as the lowest of the low and the profession will be regarded as just another money making scheme. THIS CANNOT BE ALLOWED TO STAND. We are a concerned group of DO's, trying to get the following resolution across:

Whereas the Flexner Report of 1910 is widely regarded as having helped reform both osteopathic and allopathic medical education and has served as a continuing reference for judging the quality of contemporary medical schools, and
Whereas Abraham Flexner was highly critical in his Report of for-profit medical education, noting : "Such exploitation of medical education, is strangely inconsistent with the social aspects of medical practice. In modern life the medical profession is an organ differentiated by society for its highest purposes, not a business to be exploited.", and
Whereas all for-profit schools of osteopathic and allopathic medicine in the U.S. were either converted into not for profit institutions, or were forced to close by 1935, and
Whereas osteopathic medical education should be held to a standard at least equal to, if not exceeding, allopathic medical education, and
Whereas the accreditation standards of the Liaison Committee on Medical Education (LCME) explicitly prohibits for-profit medical schools, therefore be it resolved that,
The House of Delegates strongly disapproves the establishment of any college of osteopathic medicine operated on a for-profit basis.

Get the word out and write to everyone you know. Get involved. At any official gathering, wear the following name badge:
I DISAPPROVE!
DOCTORS NOT DOLLARS
If this generation does not act, the profession will perish.
Click to expand...

Agree 100%.

For Profit medical schools: 😡 👎
Tuition at most Osteopathic medical schools: 👎thumbdown
Having graduated from one of the few Osteopathic state schools affiliated with a major university: 😀 👍

Encouraging everyone in the known universe to not apply to the schools with outrageous tuition and for-profit status!

jd
 
Yeah, the tuition is outrageous! I can't believe I could get the same education for as low as $10,000/year... It's a nice setup with a desperately captive audience though.
 
For Immediate Release​
​
Physicians push back against irresponsible growth of osteopathic medical schools – A concerned group of senior osteopathic physicians is mounting a national campaign of information and protest regarding irresponsible growth of medical schools in their profession. “We are alarmed by the emergence of a for-profit osteopathic school in Denver. If allowed to open, the Rocky Vista School of Osteopathic Medicine will be the first for-profit medical school in the United States since 1935, when all for-profit schools were intentionally closed.” said George Mychaskiw, DO, a pediatric cardiac anesthesiologist and Vice Chairman of Anesthesiology at the University of Mississippi School of Medicine. The Rocky Vista school is owned and operated as an investment by a group who also own and operate the American University of the Caribbean, a for-profit medical school in St. Maarten, Netherlands Antilles. “The Council on Osteopathic College Accreditation may permit for-profit schools, but that does not mean we, as physicians, have to approve of this policy,” said Mychaskiw. The Liaison Committee on Medical Education, the accrediting body for allopathic, or MD, schools, specifically prohibits for-profit medical schools. For-profit medical schools are also illegal in some states, such as Kansas. The concerned group of physicians hopes to raise awareness of this disturbing development through a campaign of professional education and advocacy. They strongly feel that the profession must police itself to assure continued quality of education and patient safety. In a dramatic development, Dr. Mychaskiw will be presenting these concerns in an open forum at the national meeting of the American Association of Colleges of Osteopathic Medicine, Thursday, June 28 in Baltimore, MD.

For more information contact: George Mychaskiw II, DO, FAAP
[email protected]
 
Taus said:
DO Anes: Thank you very much for what you're doing, it is truly appreciated. The AOA's proverbial "passing the buck" to COCA over the last few years is nauseating and quite frankly embarrassing.
Click to expand...

Yeah, that's lame. Someone really wants to make some $$$.
 
DO Anes said:
For Immediate Release
Physicians push back against irresponsible growth of osteopathic medical schools – A concerned group of senior osteopathic physicians is mounting a national campaign of information and protest regarding irresponsible growth of medical schools in their profession. "We are alarmed by the emergence of a for-profit osteopathic school in Denver. If allowed to open, the Rocky Vista School of Osteopathic Medicine will be the first for-profit medical school in the United States since 1935, when all for-profit schools were intentionally closed." said George Mychaskiw, DO, a pediatric cardiac anesthesiologist and Vice Chairman of Anesthesiology at the University of Mississippi School of Medicine. The Rocky Vista school is owned and operated as an investment by a group who also own and operate the American University of the Caribbean, a for-profit medical school in St. Maarten, Netherlands Antilles. "The Council on Osteopathic College Accreditation may permit for-profit schools, but that does not mean we, as physicians, have to approve of this policy," said Mychaskiw. The Liaison Committee on Medical Education, the accrediting body for allopathic, or MD, schools, specifically prohibits for-profit medical schools. For-profit medical schools are also illegal in some states, such as Kansas. The concerned group of physicians hopes to raise awareness of this disturbing development through a campaign of professional education and advocacy. They strongly feel that the profession must police itself to assure continued quality of education and patient safety. In a dramatic development, Dr. Mychaskiw will be presenting these concerns in an open forum at the national meeting of the American Association of Colleges of Osteopathic Medicine, Thursday, June 28 in Baltimore, MD.

For more information contact: George Mychaskiw II, DO, FAAP
[email protected]
Click to expand...


I hope progress will be made in tomorrow's meeting.
 
These may be a stupid questions, but I honestly want to understand what is going here. Please don't jump down my throat. What determines whether a school is non-profit or for profit? Is it not doing any research, is it the cost, or whether it is a public or private school make a difference? Would a for profit school get federal and/or state funding? Would a for profit school lower admissions standards?
 
For-profit = slaves to investors. All profits are re-distributed to share-holders. Think most businesses, google, oil companies, etc.

Not-for-profit = re-invest all "profit" back into the institution or placed into grants/accounts to defray future costs or for future expansion.

jd
 
Thanks Delaughter. Anyone know the answer to the second two questions I asked regarding federal and state funds and admission standards. I also don't see how a school can be run that way. If all the money is being sucked out of it how can it provide its students with a top notch education. With medicine advancing how could the school update any equiptment or improve anything in the school if all the money is being sucked out of the school.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
It is absolutely irresponsible that the AOA would even think of approving a for-profit osteopathic medical school funded and founded by investors who own a caribbean medical school. It completely underestimates the history and withstanding tradition of osteopathic medicine which drew me in to the profession in the first place. For the first time I am very worried about the direction of the profession. Keep up the fight against this change for I fear money, the rush to grow, and existing exposure of this school may allow it to continue.
 
DO Anes said:
Get the word out and write to everyone you know. Get involved. At any official gathering, wear the following name badge:
I DISAPPROVE!
DOCTORS NOT DOLLARS
If this generation does not act, the profession will perish.
Click to expand...

While I don't foresee myself attending any official gatherings in the near future, I would urge those who disapprove of for-profit osteopathic medical schools to display their support in their signature.
 
Good luck tomorrow with your presentation, Dr. Mychaskiw. Let us know how it goes.
 
Kappy1 said:
Thanks Delaughter. Anyone know the answer to the second two questions I asked regarding federal and state funds and admission standards. I also don't see how a school can be run that way. If all the money is being sucked out of it how can it provide its students with a top notch education. With medicine advancing how could the school update any equiptment or improve anything in the school if all the money is being sucked out of the school.
Click to expand...

I don't know that anyone can really answer the second and third questions. There have not been any For-Profit medical schools in over 70 years, as noted in the above posts, so we cannot estimate how the financial status would affect admission standards or whether the school would be eligible for federal funds. Since the school is going to be a private institution, it automatically does not qualify for many sources of federal funding, but I would assume (caveat noted) that the school would still be eligible to offer federal financial aid - but I cannot be sure.

Regarding admission standards: I would anticipate that unless students refuse to apply to this school, that the admissions standards will be below the average for DO schools, as seems to be the trend with all newer schools, and it would eventually naturally rise to about average. I don't know what effect, if any, the financial status of the school would have on the admissions standards - again, unless they did not receive many applications for their seats because students refused to support a for-profit medical school.

I would be concerned, however, that the institution would be more concerned with making money and profit than educating students in a meaningful way or bettering their facility or hiring the best faculty. We all know how for-profit businesses work: they want the most productivity for their dollar, and they most definitely do not pass the savings on to the consumer (the student), they send the money to their stock-holders and administrative staff - who's ever heard of a CEO of a medical school, eh?

ok, enough babbling.

jd
 
The bottom line with for-profit schools is that they make money from federal aid. Students are eligible for aid, so the schools try to recruit as many kids as possible. The money goes into the pockets of the investors without them thinking twice about the quality of education they provide for their students.
For-profit schools are a dangerous gambit. All they have to do is make sure their profits surpass inflation, and their investors are happy. PERIOD. This means increasing class size every year, and/or hiking tutition to beat inflation. At the same time, while making money, the quality of education is at huge risk.
 
DO Anes said:
I am an academic physician and AOA Health Policy Fellow. Osteopathic medicine is in trouble and your help is needed. Our colleges are rapidly expanding without regard to preposterous levels of tuition, postgraduate education or overall quality. The Rocky Vista shcool in Denver will be the first for-profit medical school in the US since 1935, when all for-profit schools were intentionally closed. It is owned by the same investors who own the American University of the Caribbean in St. Maarten. When this becomes widely known, it will destroy our credibility in the medical world. DO's will be seen as the lowest of the low and the profession will be regarded as just another money making scheme. THIS CANNOT BE ALLOWED TO STAND. We are a concerned group of DO's, trying to get the following resolution across:

Whereas the Flexner Report of 1910 is widely regarded as having helped reform both osteopathic and allopathic medical education and has served as a continuing reference for judging the quality of contemporary medical schools, and
Whereas Abraham Flexner was highly critical in his Report of for-profit medical education, noting : “Such exploitation of medical education, is strangely inconsistent with the social aspects of medical practice. In modern life the medical profession is an organ differentiated by society for its highest purposes, not a business to be exploited.", and
Whereas all for-profit schools of osteopathic and allopathic medicine in the U.S. were either converted into not for profit institutions, or were forced to close by 1935, and
Whereas osteopathic medical education should be held to a standard at least equal to, if not exceeding, allopathic medical education, and
Whereas the accreditation standards of the Liaison Committee on Medical Education (LCME) explicitly prohibits for-profit medical schools, therefore be it resolved that,
The House of Delegates strongly disapproves the establishment of any college of osteopathic medicine operated on a for-profit basis.

Get the word out and write to everyone you know. Get involved. At any official gathering, wear the following name badge:
I DISAPPROVE!
DOCTORS NOT DOLLARS
If this generation does not act, the profession will perish.
Click to expand...

Good luck...
 
Apparently they are a nonstock, for-profit corporation. Here's what I found regarding non-stock for-profits (from answers.com):

There are potential reasons for forming a non-stock, for profit corporation.

A corporation created solely to act as nominal owner of some property might not need to have shares of stock because all of the directors or members would have been co-owners. For example, owning a safety deposit box in a corporate name: if the corporation is non-stock, the directors of the corporation are not its owners, and thus have no personal ownership of shares of stock of the corporation, and as the safety deposit box is in a corporate name, it is not listed as belonging to the directors either.
By not filing as a non-profit, it is not necessary to obtain IRS registration and fees. For corporations being operated for short-term purposes, this may be adequate.
While members of a non-stock corporation are not entitled to dividends, if it is a for-profit corporation, they are entitled to share in the proceeds in the event the corporation is liquidated; this is not available if the corporation is non-profit; if a non-profit is liquidated, all the proceeds must either be donated to another surviving non-profit or escheated to the government.
In the event of a for-profit corporation being formed for a single business purpose such as a one-shot transaction, i.e. construction of an apartment building, at the end of the transaction (when the apartments are sold) the corporation can be "wound up and dissolved" (liquidated) and the profits paid to the members or directors without deduction. But if it is a stock corporation, it may be necessary to pay taxes on the profits, then pay the benefits as dividends, which are taxable to the recipients. (This problem is often referred to as "double taxation.") A payback of the assets of a corporation would generally be tax-free until all of the original capital invested in the corporation were returned. Thus use of a for profit non-stock could be used to legally avoid certain taxes.
While stock in a corporation is considered an asset and reportable (and could be seized in the case of a lawsuit or a government confiscation or nationalization), being a member of a corporation or a director is not an asset and thus is not subject to seizure or reporting for asset purposes. Thus it may be used to hide or obscure assets without doing anything illegal.
Someone is incorporating a business for liability protection, but is not really interested initially in being able to sell the business. A company can always switch from stock to non-stock and vice-versa at any time, usually by paying a small fee to change the articles of incorporation, and potentially a stock fee if the corporation changes from non-stock to stock. (Changing from non-profit to for-profit is generally not allowed absent special permission.) Generally the renewal fees on a non-stock corporation can be substantially less than a stock corporation. For example, the fee for incorporating any non-stock or incorporating a stock corporation up to a small number of shares, say 40,000 might be $200, but a year later, at renewal, the renewal fee for a non-stock corporation would be $50, while the stock corporation would have a renewal fee of $50 plus a stock fee of perhaps another $200 or so.

Basically, they make money if the school is liquidated or sold. Kind of a scary thought. Also, it is unnerving that nonstocks can be a way to create assets on behalf of board members without having to register them with the IRS until they are considered capital gains.
 
I'd rather crank out a ton of physicians to meet our shortage than battle with CRNAs, PAs, NPs, and other mid-level practitioners for jobs which will cut our salaries and lower quality of care. I don't think it'll have any impact on how DOs are viewed - they'll all go through the same amount of training and be competent doctors.
 
I'll be looking into this more closely and I think we should have SOMA chapters across the country start asking questions ... has there been an explanation put forth by the AOA??
 
DO Anes said:
For Immediate Release
​
Physicians push back against irresponsible growth of osteopathic medical schools – A concerned group of senior osteopathic physicians is mounting a national campaign of information and protest regarding irresponsible growth of medical schools in their profession. “We are alarmed by the emergence of a for-profit osteopathic school in Denver. If allowed to open, the Rocky Vista School of Osteopathic Medicine will be the first for-profit medical school in the United States since 1935, when all for-profit schools were intentionally closed.” said George Mychaskiw, DO, a pediatric cardiac anesthesiologist and Vice Chairman of Anesthesiology at the University of Mississippi School of Medicine. The Rocky Vista school is owned and operated as an investment by a group who also own and operate the American University of the Caribbean, a for-profit medical school in St. Maarten, Netherlands Antilles. “The Council on Osteopathic College Accreditation may permit for-profit schools, but that does not mean we, as physicians, have to approve of this policy,” said Mychaskiw. The Liaison Committee on Medical Education, the accrediting body for allopathic, or MD, schools, specifically prohibits for-profit medical schools. For-profit medical schools are also illegal in some states, such as Kansas. The concerned group of physicians hopes to raise awareness of this disturbing development through a campaign of professional education and advocacy. They strongly feel that the profession must police itself to assure continued quality of education and patient safety. In a dramatic development, Dr. Mychaskiw will be presenting these concerns in an open forum at the national meeting of the American Association of Colleges of Osteopathic Medicine, Thursday, June 28 in Baltimore, MD.

For more information contact: George Mychaskiw II, DO, FAAP
[email protected]
Click to expand...

I wish you luck!
 
...I invite you to officially communicate your position on for-profit schools by writing a letter to COCA and addressing it to:

Dr. Konrad Miskowicz-Retz, PhD,
Secretary Commission on Osteopathic College Accreditation
142 E. Ontario Street
Chicago, IL 60611

I urge everyone to write and voice your disapproval. If e-mail is your thing, his address is [email protected].
 
Taus said:
yes...their explaination has consistantly been that "the AOA can't do anything about it....COCA controls the opening of schools".....f'ing horse$hit....a pathetic example of passing the buck
Click to expand...

The way I've heard it explained is that COCA can't deny an application for accreditation if the applicant is complying with all rules/standards of COCA. If COCA were to do so (i.e. violate their own accreditation rules), it could lead to an investigation and possibly even a revocation of COCA's federally granted authority to accredit medical schools.

COCA's current rules don't explicitly prohibit a for-profit school. Possibly because there hasn't been one in 100 years, it hardly seemed like something there needed to be explicitly stated. I don't know. I also don't know why they don't just change their rules now, but maybe it's not that simple to do. Maybe if they were to do that, the company could bring a complaint to the federal government, claiming "discrimination" because the rules were changed simply to squash their efforts. Who knows.

Now, I'm not sure I entirely buy those explanations, but "ooo, it's the evil AOA out to ruin the profession again" agruments don't carry a lot of weight for me. Even when they do things I don't like, I know they at least have a logical reason, although I may not agree with it.

While I do have concerns about a for-profit school, I'm not sure how I feel about the seemingly knee-jerk, vehement reactions here. A "for-profit" school won't make much of a profit if they have poor facilites, poor instructors and charge double the tuition of non-profit schools. They might get a few students who couldn't get in anywhere else and are desparate, but I wouldn't consider that a successful school. They will succeed if they build a good school, one with excellent facilities and professors, one that students will WANT to go to. When you think about it, profit may give them an extra motive to provide a high quality education.

For profit corporations are responsible for some of the greatest successes and technological advances in our society. Of course, they are also responsible for a lot of damage and corruption and other terrible things. But just because it is for-profit doesn't mean it's inherently bad.

The fact that there are no shareholders is interesting. It makes me wonder what their motivation is, if they only make money when they sell it. I can't imagine it's all that easy to sell a medical school. Who would buy it?
 
Boner said:
...I invite you to officially communicate your position on for-profit schools by writing a letter to COCA and addressing it to:

Dr. Konrad Miskowicz-Retz, PhD,
Secretary Commission on Osteopathic College Accreditation
142 E. Ontario Street
Chicago, IL 60611

I urge everyone to write and voice your disapproval. If e-mail is your thing, his address is [email protected].
Click to expand...

Thanks for the contact info, I am composing my own letter now.
 
Here's the text of the letter I sent, any of you who wish to do the same, please feel free to send something similar.

Dear Dr. Miskowicz-Retz,

As an osteopathic medical student, I am deeply concerned with the precedent being set by COCA's approval of the opening of a for-profit osteopathic medical school in the U.S. (Rocky Mountain Vista in Colorado.)

Our profession is a well respected and flourishing one for many reasons, the most important of which is our insistence on holding ourselves to the same educational and professional standards as our allopathic brethren. This has been the state of affairs for nearly 100 years, since the publishing of the Flexner report.

A quote from the report regarding for-profit medical schools:

“Such exploitation of medical education, is strangely inconsistent with the social aspects of medical practice. In modern life the medical profession is an organ differentiated by society for its highest purposes, not a business to be exploited."

I urge COCA to consider this issue in light of our history, and enact regulations that will protect the integrity of our profession for another 100 years.

Thank you for your time, and take care.

Sincerely,

Red Beard, OMS-II
Western University of Health Sciences
College of Osteopathic Medicine of the Pacific
Click to expand...
 
julia645 said:
The way I've heard it explained is that COCA can't deny an application for accreditation if the applicant is complying with all rules/standards of COCA. If COCA were to do so (i.e. violate their own accreditation rules), it could lead to an investigation and possibly even a revocation of COCA's federally granted authority to accredit medical schools.
Click to expand...
Not attacking you here or expecting you to answer, but why can't they just add new criteria?

While they're at it they might want to go ahead and put a stop to all these new DO schools sprouting up everywhere. Do something like the allopathic counterpart and require huge sums of money be available before approval can be granted.
 
Boner said:
...I invite you to officially communicate your position on for-profit schools by writing a letter to COCA and addressing it to:

Dr. Konrad Miskowicz-Retz, PhD
Click to expand...

One question: does anyone happen to know if Dr. Miskowicz-Retz is a physician or just a PhD? If the answer is "a PhD", there is a potential conflict of interest here; more medical schools mean more teaching and research jobs for PhDs while degrading the degree and employment opportunities for Physicians.

Personally, I'd feel more comfortable if PhDs did not play a role in dictating the future of a Physician's profession. There's simply not enough in common when it comes to the "real world".
 
they still have to pass the COMLEX, and COMLEX PE (or whatever that Philladelphia place is called)...

For-profit/not-for-profit issue put aside for a moment, if we can have good quality residency programs for all of our DO and MD grads, I think the more doctors the better, to a certain extent...

However, I know that that's a VERY loaded statement...
 
http://www.aacom.org/insideome/2007-05-May.asp#item12.1

Dear Editor:

I read with dismay your brief article “New COM Breaks Ground” (in the April 2007 newsletter). In a very politically correct manner, you simply state that Rocky Vista University COM will be the first for-profit medical school in the United States since the early 20th Century. While I fully understand AACOM’s role of representing all the accredited COMs, regardless of corporate structure, I find myself asking, “Isn't anyone going to point out the elephant in the center of the room?!”

Consider the words of one author, commenting on American medical education at the time of the 1910 Flexner Report:

“… many American medical schools were ‘proprietary’,” namely small trade schools owned by one or more doctors, unaffiliated with a college or university, and run to make a profit. A degree was typically awarded after only two years of study. Laboratory work and dissection were not necessarily required. Many of the instructors were local doctors teaching part-time, whose own training left something to be desired.” (1910 Flexner Report)

Is there anyone out there who believes that a for-profit COM is anything aside from a throwback to the pre-Flexner era? Not only is Rocky Vista the first for-profit medical school since the intentional closure of such institutions by 1930, it is owned and operated as an investment by the same owners of the American University of the Caribbean in St. Maarten, Netherlands Antilles.

Expecting a student to come to a major, high-cost-of-living metro area, pay exorbitant tuition rates and then practice low-reimbursement primary care in rural, underserved areas is, at best, unrealistic and, at worst, smoke and mirrors to obscure the motives behind this business enterprise.

COCA conveniently ignores its own Standard 7, which states, “The COM must make contributions to the advancement of knowledge and the development of osteopathic medicine through scientific research.” (COM Standards and Procedures) How much funding is going to be re-invested into research at a for-profit medical school? How much research and NIH funding do the American University of the Caribbean generate? And why are we in a rush to accredit another free-standing osteopathic medical school, a university in name only, with no established affiliate institution?

Since the time of A.T. Still, this profession has struggled to establish credibility and acceptance in the larger world of medicine. Now, when we are stronger than ever, AOA, COCA and AACOM all seem either unable or unwilling to prevent this giant, and possibly fatal, step backward.

Shame on us.

George Mychaskiw II, DO, FAAP
Professor and Vice-Chairman
Department of Anesthesiology
Chief of Anesthesia, Blair E. Batson Children’s Hospital
University of Mississippi School of Medicine
Jackson, Mississippi
 
But if you step back... more than anything else, I think it mostly just LOOKS real bad. 🙄

Honestly, we have thousands of foreign medical grads accepted into american residencies every year. And several hundred of them are coming from for-profit caribbean medical schools. Why is it so different that the school happens to be on our soil? Or that they are distributing D.O. degrees? At least this will be a school recognized by the AOA and thus under the AOA's watchful eyes... (haha, you can try to refrain from laughing if you want).

Now I don't want to let this degenerate into a discussion as to whether or not for-profit education is any better or worse than ours (you can meander into the caribbean medical school forum to hear lots of opinions on that)... but the fact is that many (most?) carib grads match and end up being contributing members of the medical community all the same.
 
Terpskins99 said:
At least this will be a school recognized by the AOA and thus under the AOA's watchful eyes... (haha, you can try to refrain from laughing if you want).
Click to expand...

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

I tried... I really did!! 😉
 
Not attacking you here or expecting you to answer, but why can't they just add new criteria?

While they're at it they might want to go ahead and put a stop to all these new DO schools sprouting up everywhere. Do something like the allopathic counterpart and require huge sums of money be available before approval can be granted.
Click to expand...

You're right, I don't have an answer! I don't know enough about COCA now and I'm not motivated enough to find out 🙂

I've thought of a better analogy for what I was trying to say in my first post. Think of the efforts in the past that were used to prevent blacks from voting. They tried poll taxes, that you had to have a certain amount of money to vote. Then they tried "tests" so that if you couldn't answer detailed questions about the constitution, then you couldn't vote. Both of those were challenged and eventually abolished because they were discriminatory.

Now, if COCA changes the rules and says a) you must be a non-profit or b) you must have a $50 million dollar endowment, couldn't the schools come back and agrue discrimination? In some ways, they'd actually be right, because COCA is changing their rules to specifically to prevent those schools from opening. Maybe the new rules would be better for the long term health and growth of the profession, but it still would probably mean a lengthy legal battle. And it might mean serious consequences for COCA and the AOA if they lose.

While the AOA leadership is not publicly condeming the for-profit school, they also aren't too gung-ho about it either. I haven't read anything in which they come out in favor of it or say anything positive about it, which makes me think that they may disagree, but for whatever reason are keeping it to themselves.
 
This bothers me a bit. I'm sure that there are ways this could work out for the best, but when I look at the students I graduated college with who had degrees in science and wanted to get in med school but didn't, I have to wonder if this is where they will go. The national average MCAT score is a 21 and the national average for ppl accepted to medical schools is a 27. It's obvious that no one with a chance of getting in to a reputable school will be trying to get in here, so is the point just to get more doctors? There's got to be some equity between getting more physicians and the quality of physician you will get, and the thing is we have to play devils advocate b/c we don't know for sure what quality of education they will get. It could turn out to be great, but I for one don't think so. I had several friends, @ my small southern university, that thought about going to the Caribbean for med school but didn't because they couldn't get in here and didn't want to leave the States...if this school is opened it gives them an opportunity to do just that and trust me, these guys did not need to be going to medical school. I worry that if it is successful it will open the door to other similar schools in the US and that the D.O. profession will suffer for it. I am against this school opening b/c although it may turn out for the good, I think the potential for harm to the profession outweighs the potential for good. That's my .02 and I will be sending my letter tomorrow.

Andy
 
This thread has been viewed nearly a thousand times. Most poeple seem to be against the Rocky Vista for-profit school. If everyone wrote a letter to the AOA leadership, it would be an irresistible force!

I DISAPPROVE!
DOCTORS NOT DOLLARS
 
DO Anes said:
If everyone wrote a letter to the AOA leadership, it would be an irresistible force!
Click to expand...

So, they would actually reconsider this if enough people chimed in? There's potentially that much pull? Its disheartening that its even an issue in the first place.
 
DO Anes said:
This thread has been viewed nearly a thousand times. Most poeple seem to be against the Rocky Vista for-profit school. If everyone wrote a letter to the AOA leadership, it would be an irresistible force!

I DISAPPROVE!
DOCTORS NOT DOLLARS
Click to expand...
So should we send the letter to COCA or the AOA?
 
I too believe that for profit schools are a disgrace to our profession and it was this that compelled me to talk about this to one of the board members for the Rocky Mountain Vista school when I had the opportunity to do so back in Feb.

Let me start by saying that many AOA BOT members are heading this school and involved in its development. The person I talked to, is a BOT member that is also on the BOT for our school.

When we heard about this school and this particular individuals involvement, myself and my fellow SOMA officers decided to inquire about this school when the BOT member visited our school. We left our conversation with this individual quite impressed with this schools plans. While on paper this school is for-profit, the school itself (as well as the proposed ancillary schools) has in place protection from the drive for profit (the exact legal information I do not have) and is not for profit nor do they answer to stock owners. Students will be eligible for financial aid just as all other schools. The for profit aspect will stem from the land the school sits on and the developments around the school including apartment complexes and businesses. I can also state that this school is in the finalization process of putting into place 300 new residency spots in the Colorado area which will be open in 2010 by the earliest in some top hospitals in some large cities in Colorado including the Denver area.

So I don't want to come off as an apologist for this school, but I do ask that those of your with questions about this school please email those involved with its development and get first hand information, this particular individual I had a conversation with was quite open to discussing this school and explaining its development.

This school seems to recognize and is addressing a major issue with our profession (lack of residency spots) despite its for profit label which is more than we can say about many of the other new schools.
 
DO Anes said:
This thread has been viewed nearly a thousand times. Most poeple seem to be against the Rocky Vista for-profit school. If everyone wrote a letter to the AOA leadership, it would be an irresistible force!

I DISAPPROVE!
DOCTORS NOT DOLLARS
Click to expand...

With the way the AOA functions, increased opposition may actually spark plans to build 10 more identical schools😡
 
Medicfletch said:
I too believe that for profit schools are a disgrace to our profession and it was this that compelled me to talk about this to one of the board members for the Rocky Mountain Vista school when I had the opportunity to do so back in Feb.

Let me start by saying that many AOA BOT members are heading this school and involved in its development. The person I talked to, is a BOT member that is also on the BOT for our school.

When we heard about this school and this particular individuals involvement, myself and my fellow SOMA officers decided to inquire about this school when the BOT member visited our school. We left our conversation with this individual quite impressed with this schools plans. While on paper this school is for-profit, the school itself (as well as the proposed ancillary schools) has in place protection from the drive for profit (the exact legal information I do not have) and is not for profit nor do they answer to stock owners. Students will be eligible for financial aid just as all other schools. The for profit aspect will stem from the land the school sits on and the developments around the school including apartment complexes and businesses. I can also state that this school is in the finalization process of putting into place 300 new residency spots in the Colorado area which will be open in 2010 by the earliest in some top hospitals in some large cities in Colorado including the Denver area.

So I don't want to come off as an apologist for this school, but I do ask that those of your with questions about this school please email those involved with its development and get first hand information, this particular individual I had a conversation with was quite open to discussing this school and explaining its development.

This school seems to recognize and is addressing a major issue with our profession (lack of residency spots) despite its for profit label which is more than we can say about many of the other new schools.
Click to expand...


So, if all of these noble things are true, then why is the school incorporated as a Colorado for-profit corporation? Why not a non-profit? Why are no other medical schools in the US for-profit? I am licensed in Colorado and very familiar with the medical community. There is NO WAY that the state can support 300 new residencies by 2010. Do you understand that this would represent greater than 10% of all osteopathic residency slots nationwide? Colorado is actually a very small medical community. And if all of these noble things are true, then why are the investors, owners of the American University of the Caribbean, doing this, if not to make money? Are they that philanthropic? Members of the AOA BOT and Colorado society are members of Rocky Vista's BOT. Does anyone have a problem with the conflicts of interest?
All I hear about this school is what "good guys" the people running it are. Why do we have to rely on their benevolence? All the rest of the world will see and will need to know is that it is a Colorado FOR-PROFIT corporation. Given that, it wouldn't matter if Albert Schwetzer was running it.

I DISAPPROVE!
DOCTORS NOT DOLLARS
 
jonb12997 said:
they still have to pass the COMLEX, and COMLEX PE (or whatever that Philladelphia place is called)...

For-profit/not-for-profit issue put aside for a moment, if we can have good quality residency programs for all of our DO and MD grads, I think the more doctors the better, to a certain extent...

quote]
I have to agree with jonb here. Regardless of whether it is a for-profit/non-profit or whatever the students will still have to pass the COMPLEX. You know the actual STANDARDIZED test that all DOs have to take. From what I've heard they are actually working somewhat with the people from Colorado University in order to get things underway and considering their school has an average GPA of 3.7 and MCAT of 32 hopefully Rocky Mtn Vista will at least be a descent school to go to in the future.
Im still a little confused of why people are so upset about the For-profit idea anyways. So what our tuition money goes to one man as opposed to a huge corporation or bank. At least someone has stepped in and decided to get the osteopathic ball rolling in Colorado.
Click to expand...
 
emlopez2 said:
jonb12997 said:
they still have to pass the COMLEX, and COMLEX PE (or whatever that Philladelphia place is called)...

For-profit/not-for-profit issue put aside for a moment, if we can have good quality residency programs for all of our DO and MD grads, I think the more doctors the better, to a certain extent...

quote]
I have to agree with jonb here. Regardless of whether it is a for-profit/non-profit or whatever the students will still have to pass the COMPLEX. You know the actual STANDARDIZED test that all DOs have to take. From what I've heard they are actually working somewhat with the people from Colorado University in order to get things underway and considering their school has an average GPA of 3.7 and MCAT of 32 hopefully Rocky Mtn Vista will at least be a descent school to go to in the future.
Im still a little confused of why people are so upset about the For-profit idea anyways. So what our tuition money goes to one man as opposed to a huge corporation or bank. At least someone has stepped in and decided to get the osteopathic ball rolling in Colorado.
Click to expand...

First of all, for-profit means that the money IS going to a corporation or bank instead of back into the school. Anyways, medical schools are not meant to be and should not be factories which churn out medical students who are able to pass the boards. The goal is to train the physicians as best as possible to provide the best possible care not to train them with as little money as is possible to make them mediocre doctors.

Also, even if the quality of education turns out to be excellent their will always be a stigma attached to that school and thus to osteopathic medicine in general. Remember that people who go to a carribean medical school also have to pass the USMLE like allopathic students but I guarantee they are not first in line on lists for open residency positions.
Click to expand...
 
Is there any indication as to whether the school will actualy indeed gain accredidation?
 
Most dramatic OP ever
 
If you would really like to save the profession, I think there are many other problems that need attention first. We need to tackle curriculum problems in "established" schools first. The laughable amount of education I've received in embryo and genetics comes to mind. Also, 3rd-year Family Practice clerkships based out of offices where the doctor does majority cash-only pain management is another issue that comes to mind. I'd also like to trade one of my required THREE months of rural rotations for a neurology rotation (but I guess neuro is not important??). Or perhaps I'm wrong and that pain.. err I mean Family Practice clerkship covered everything that particular M3 needs to know about neurology. I'm sure the rest of the DO schools out there aren't perfect either.
 
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