Opposition to Rocky Vista For-Profit Osteopathic School

JackieTreehorn said:

He's asleep! I guess he can't hear me. Log cabins are soundproof I guess. Might want to wash the maple syrup out of your ears.

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you make me laugh.

ForbiddenComma said:

If this thread is a plane, then Jackie is Mohammed Atta!

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How come I get all the blame? Do igloos insulate people from criticism? We both took more or less friendly banter and started an argument. But you would never criticize McGillGrad-bet he gets you the cheap beer

DO Anes said:

Unfortunately, the American way has also resulted in 47 million uninsured and medical expenses as the leading cause of personal bankruptcy, while the US ranks 43rd in overall health status. There is an economic and demographic storm looming, given the number of retirees entering the system. If we believe that physician-directed health care is truly in a patient's best interest, then the medical profession must address these issues. We alreay have demonized (rightly or wrongly) Pharma, HMO's, etc. for the profit motive. Are we now to add medical education? When the storm hits, if the profession has not acted ethically and responsibly, then someone (the government?) will take draconian actions to put an end to windfall profiteering on the blood of patients. Of course, by then the owners of the for-profit schools wll have cashed in and moved on to another "investment".

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You know, I was very understanding of your argument before this, but I think "windfall profiterring on the blood of patients," is a little extreme and patently silly. Someone trying to sell something (education) to someone who wants it (future med students) is doing no such thing. Saturating the market with DOs may very well be bad for DOs, but only because of a personal profit motive on the part of the physicians (something I have no problem with). Of course they want to be paid well for their services. DOs becoming more prevalent simply gives many of those 47 million uninsured better access to a physician. The status of the DO degree, while significant to those in the medical community, means essentially nothing to a guy who needs a cath. If quality suffers, the AOA should consider pulling the accreditation. However, being for-profit means nothing.

Keep in mind the limiting factor is residency spots. More DOs doesnt necessarily mean better access to care, however as there are unclaimed residency spots each yr you could make that argument.

A for profit school means nothing to me. For all the non-profit types perhaps you should find out what the top person in your med school or college makes a yr. It is a big big number, they are working, for profit just means that they are more likely to be efficient and look for efficiency and perhaps pay shareholders.

Since when is making a profit a bad thing? If you are opposed go to a different school.

EctopicFetus said:

It is a big big number, they are working, for profit just means that they are more likely to be efficient and look for efficiency and perhaps pay shareholders.

Since when is making a profit a bad thing? If you are opposed go to a different school.

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You didn't read my post about Ross. Some for-profit may work well, but just as in the case of Ross, students are shafted in the pursuit of profit for the shareholders. In the for-profit system, the students are dead last in priorities because of the unlimited supply of desperate wanna-be medical students.

McGillGrad said:

You didn't read my post about Ross. Some for-profit may work well, but just as in the case of Ross, students are shafted in the pursuit of profit for the shareholders. In the for-profit system, the students are dead last in priorities because of the unlimited supply of desperate wanna-be medical students.

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This kind of happens in most of the not-for-profit schools as well. Students are always last at top medical centers, because they bring in less money than other persuits even with the exhorbitant tuition prices. One solid work-up on a sick patient with a hospital stay can generate your entire tuition for the year in a couple of days. Most schools have financial interests in their hospitals. Research also > tuition money. Follow the money, even at the not-for-profits. As I said, this just makes RVU honest.

Miami_med said:

This kind of happens in most of the not-for-profit schools as well. Students are always last at top medical centers, because they bring in less money than other persuits even with the exhorbitant tuition prices. One solid work-up on a sick patient with a hospital stay can generate your entire tuition for the year in a couple of days. Most schools have financial interests in their hospitals. Research also > tuition money. Follow the money, even at the not-for-profits. As I said, this just makes RVU honest.

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Yeah I went to a nonprofit and you know what.. we were dead last in priority. no one cared about us much.

EctopicFetus said:

Yeah I went to a nonprofit and you know what.. we were dead last in priority. no one cared about us much.

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Considering that you have no idea what it is like to be in a for-profit school, your opinion means nothing (in this regard) and furthers the whining spoiled brat stereotype of American medical students.

So whats the difference from this Rocky balboa school and a school like NYCOM? When I was visiting NY I heard adds on the radio for NYIT that sounds just like Devry or ITT tech. NYCOM is on the NYIT campus and isn't nyit a for profit school? If they are not they sure due sound like a devry with their radio adds.

NYIT is a non-profit, private college.

From my understanding of it, nonprofit schools will shovel money back to the schools, while for-profit schools can and do shovel money back to their investors and top executives. There are laws for maintaining nonprofit status, and I believe how much money is spent on the institution itself is one of them (whereas there is no incentive for for-profit schools institution). I bet a corporate lawyer could better explain the distinction.

I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that for-profit schools will be great, not everything for profit benefits society and medical education is for the betterment of society, and not just a money making enterprise (although it can be both).

So, here is my take on this, tell me what you think....

The pros and cons of a for profit school are difficult to really predict. You are either beholden to the shareholders, or to the board. You need to make money in either case. It is true at some not for profit institutions the money that goes in gets funneled into exhorbitant salaries for those at the top.

That said, there are many things to be worried about when it comes to this new school. First off, it was founded by a developer who created a Carribean school. He wanted to get his hands in the US, and went first to the LCME, but they would not accredit him, and refused to allow a for profit school. As a second choice he went to the AOA who at this time seem to be accrediting school like it is going out of style. I have heard that the people he has running the school are decent, but his motives are suspicious. I personally do not trust the first for profit school in the US in 100 years in his hands.

One implication of a for profit school is that it needs to cater to the shareholders first and foremost. Some things, like arranging new residencies, do not add to the bottom line. Somthing like this, that is already neglected by other schools would be off the agenda in a for profit situation.

I know that there is the ongoing cry of a doctor shortage, and I know that the AOA thinks it is doing its part to deliver more doctors to those places that need it most, but the way that they are going about it is irresponsible. They are diluting quality in exchange for quantity, and they are accepting scraps that fall off the allopathic table. The old guard at the AOA needs to rethink their strategy. Maybe a bit more quality would be better than the lust for quantity.

To fix any "shortage" which is really more of a maldistribution, we don't need new medical schools. We need more residency slots. Many FMGs are already trying to come who don't get spots. Adding more schools simply adds more AMGs to compete against FMGs for the same spots. That doesn't mean that people shouldn't be able to open more schools, but the impact on the total number of physicians has got to be close to zero.

With due respect to everyone's opinions,


I have no interest in "railing" on RVU. I don't think that osteopathic medicine will fall apart, and I'm not here to debate health care reform.

I am a proud student of an osteopathic medical school and I am deeply concerned about the decision to allow a school organized as a "for-profit" corporation.

First and foremost, this action represents a failure of leadership to share a vision with the osteopathic membership. The community of osteopathic physicians and students, do not want "for profit" medical schools. Not a one has existed in the United States for the past 100 years, and I see no compelling reason why that should change, and none has been offered by the AOA leadership. By permitting a for-profit school to open, the AOA and COCA made a decision that effects all of us within the community.

Though many choose not to acknowledge this fact, the accredidation standards for opening a new school of osteopathic medicine are less rigorous than those for an allopathic school. This was true before RVU was granted provision approval, and there were many in the community already concerned about this fact. By allowing RVU to begin admitting students, COCA loosened those standards even further.

Ultimately, medicine is a function of a trust that exists between doctors and their patients. Any individual physician can gain or lose this trust, due to their own diligence or negligence, but the foundation of this trust rest on a contract between the public and the medical establishment. That contract says that we as a profession will police ourselves to ensure a minimum level of competence, compassion and knowledge.

The osteopathic profession has worked hard to achieve independence and equality in negotiating this public trust, and now enjoys wide acceptance within the US medical establishment for it separate set of standards to educate physicians.

This is not to be taken for granted. Already, the trust of osteopathic graduates for the standards of their own community has eroded to the point that over 2/3rds choose not to continue their training within the osteopathic community after graduation. Two-thirds is an awfully big number. One can rhetorically dismiss this fact with platitudes, but the overwhelming fact remains, the overwhelming majority of D.O. graduates feel they can get better training in an ACGME accredited program, not an AOA accredited one.

At a time when osteopathic graduates lead the nation in amount of debt upon graduation, (link) why is the AOA not responding to this by asking for greater reinvestment of revenue into financial aid programs, and to build the endowment of existing schools to ensure financial stability into the future?

At time when many of these new schools struggle to find a reasonable number of quality comprehensive clinical rotation sites for their 3rd and 4th year students, why is the AOA supporting the creation of even more schools that will have the same problems?

There are serious problems within the osteopathic community that require a vision and strong leadership. There are an increasing number of us that realize that not only is that vision and leadership lacking, but that our leaders are actively pursuing a course of action that takes the profession in the wrong direction.

Osteopathic leadership should raise the bar in the standard of pre and post graduate osteopathic medical education. The quality of the indication is the best asset in ensuring a healthy future for the osteopathic profession in the future.

The DO-difference must be that Osteopathic medical education makes better doctors for patients, not better profits for investors.

bth

Instead of stopping new medical schools from opening up, we should promote more individuals to open schools so we can meet the great Crisis that we are about face!!

According to WSJ: 150,000 physician shortage in 15 years
according to AMA: over 24,000 students that are potentially qualified can not get into medical school purely because there are just not enough seats.

every year close 5000 students go to American based medical schools outside of the country to get their MD, and then come back and practice here. They all attend "FOR PROFIT" schools. I dont see anyone raising a red flag on that.

Non-profit schools are just as much money makers as the for Profit ones!! The only difference is that instead of "dividends" they get large salaries. The word Non-Profit is just a tax term to make you feel all nice warm inside.

Now what do you think is going to happen when we(all physicians = MD + DO) can not fill the physician shortage???? PAs and NPs are going to get more and more power and they will come in and do the same job(mostly not as good secondary to lack of experience and education) for much less money... Hmmmm... that just means one thing for us... More CUTs!!!

Now instead of focusing on what the tax term is behind the corporation that started the school, why dont we focus on having these for profit and non profit schools that are making a ton of money began to fund some residency spots!!

There is a for-profit allopathic medical school in the process of obtaining accreditation: http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/20...dical-school-medical-degrees-medical-students

It was interesting to read all these posts from 4 years ago. Starting from the top of the thread, I expected more people to be against the idea of Caribbean-style schools popping up in the US, but the opposition to the idea was light. Is this still the case?

morning said:

There is a for-profit allopathic medical school in the process of obtaining accreditation: http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/20...dical-school-medical-degrees-medical-students

It was interesting to read all these posts from 4 years ago. Starting from the top of the thread, I expected more people to be against the idea of Caribbean-style schools popping up in the US, but the opposition to the idea was light. Is this still the case?

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Many people are still highly opposed. However, I cannot wait to see some of the explanations/reactions if the MD school in Palm Beach is approved.

$50,700 as the first years tuition. Usually brand new schools start out on the lower side and climb pretty rapidly in their tuition. I can't even imagine...

MLT2MT2DO said:

$50,700 as the first years tuition. Usually brand new schools start out on the lower side and climb pretty rapidly in their tuition. I can't even imagine...

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Not. Worth. It.

MOHS_01 said:

Not. Worth. It.

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While I would tend to agree you are talking about the demographic that regularly starts threads with titles like, " Would you eat a poop sandwich to get into medical school?"

Tough to reason with them.

This creates a ridiculous conflict of interest.

If I'm a pharm company (or device company), I see this as a golden opportunity to buy my way into the medical school curriculum. When for a (relatively) small fee your drug can be taught as the best SSRI or the best anti hypertensive drug on the market, this will harm patients and our healthcare system at large for the benefit of for profit schools and pharmaceutical companies.

To the "free-marketiers" out there, just remember that this isn't a free market. Health care is (and probably always will be) a guild type structure. This isn't just a free-market decision of individuals deciding to pay for a for-profit medical school. Your decision to attend a for-profit med school affects far more than just you. Your treatment of patients will be effected, your prescribing patterns will be effected, etc. Hope this school gets crushed before it can get off the ground. People already have trouble trusting docs as it is. How do you think it will be when you go to Pfizer medical school?

DoctwoB said:

This creates a ridiculous conflict of interest.

If I'm a pharm company (or device company), I see this as a golden opportunity to buy my way into the medical school curriculum. When for a (relatively) small fee your drug can be taught as the best SSRI or the best anti hypertensive drug on the market, this will harm patients and our healthcare system at large for the benefit of for profit schools and pharmaceutical companies.

To the "free-marketiers" out there, just remember that this isn't a free market. Health care is (and probably always will be) a guild type structure. This isn't just a free-market decision of individuals deciding to pay for a for-profit medical school. Your decision to attend a for-profit med school affects far more than just you. Your treatment of patients will be effected, your prescribing patterns will be effected, etc. Hope this school gets crushed before it can get off the ground. People already have trouble trusting docs as it is. How do you think it will be when you go to Pfizer medical school?

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I find this an interesting argument... But I don't think it holds much weight, because those docs that are currently under the employ of places like Pfizer, etc. are already teaching at medical schools you feel are Public or non-profit private schools. My point is that you find these docs everywhere and there is no reason to believe that these docs or researchers will flock to for-profit schools.

My largest concern about for-profit schools is the cost of education once they have graduated a few classes. Right now they seem within normal limits, but with so many people not being accepted into medical school I'm sure these applicants would be willing to pay whatever price they needed to in order to get a medical education.