Postbac at Univ of Penn

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Alvarez13

Alvarez13

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I'm not seeing much info on University of Pennsylvania's postbac program. Anyone in it? What are the pros and cons? I see they have linkages to Univ of Penn and Univ of Pittsburg, so that sounds great too.

I also was wondering on what you guys think about doing your postbac in the state where you want to go to med school? Univ of Penn and Univ of Pittsburg are both excellant medical schools and I would love to go to either. There's also a lot of other med schools in Pennsylvania to choose from. A lot of state schools seem to look at residency as a plus and I'm trying to have as much going for me as I can.

A little about me: I'm graduating Dec 07 with a BS in Mech Engineering and a minor in Biomechanics at the University of Florida. GPA will be slightly above a 3.4 and I have a massive amount of extracirrics, 3 internships with GE and Siemens, and have volunteered in ERs and Surgical Centers for quite sometime now. I also have a year of Chem and a year of Phys w/ labs under my belt. I think Philadelphia would be a great city to find work in as well, so hopefully I can do the program at night/weekends.

Just looking for some feedback and would love to meet people going into the program. I believe Oct 1 is the first day they start looking at spring 2008 apps.
 
I started out there, but I didn't like the overall program.
All of the classes are once a week at night, which I found hard to take, especially since I was working a lot of hours at the time.

Some of the faculty is good, some not so good. A large number of them aren't Penn faculty; part-time teachers from other schools.

The comment about the curve is also true. It is pretty strict and they set it around C+ or B- for the mean. This might be okay in UGrad, but in classes with mainly smart students who all want to go to med school, I found it hard to get too high above the mean. That being said, if you do well there you should be in good shape to get in somewhere. Also, if you take summer classes, the tuition is like twice as high.

I transferred to another school to finish up, and I will be starting med school next fall.
 
Thanks for the comments.

Another option for me is at University of North Florida. It's probably not as hard of a program and I would come out with much higher grades. There's just no linkage opportunities and not as good of a name.

What do you think is more valuable? To make good grades or to come from a really well known program and not do as well?
 
Alvarez13 said:
Thanks for the comments.

Another option for me is at University of North Florida. It's probably not as hard of a program and I would come out with much higher grades. There's just no linkage opportunities and not as good of a name.

What do you think is more valuable? To make good grades or to come from a really well known program and not do as well?
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Good grades - this is not even a close call - do it at a CC if that is the most convenient and cost effective place, too, but regardless, if you make a 3.0 in your post bacc from Penn, you can just about kiss med school bye bye...
 
postbacker said:
Good grades - this is not even a close call - do it at a CC if that is the most convenient and cost effective place, too, but regardless, if you make a 3.0 in your post bacc from Penn, you can just about kiss med school bye bye...
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I'm not sure about that statement. I believe Penn has linkage programs where the minimum requirement is 3.1 and people do often link with those numbers.
 
drizzt3117 said:
I'm not sure about that statement. I believe Penn has linkage programs where the minimum requirement is 3.1 and people do often link with those numbers.
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You will have to back that up with FACTS - post bacc linkages are limited at all of these schools, and they are awarded only to the very BEST students, not the students with a 3.0 post bacc GPA...unless you are claiming that 100 percent of the students in the Penn post bacc program get linkages, I cannot believe what you are saying is true...
 
Lokhtar said:
I've actually heard similar things. People with a 3.2+ often do link very successfully. The 'problem' is that the median is frequently set to C+ or B-, meaning half the class (all post-baccers) will be below that 3.0 average. So the people who get a 3.0+ are the top post-bac students already.
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Well I said something about a 3.0, and then the next dude was talking about 3.1, and now you are talking about 3.2+...I think we are moving in the right direction, but I still don't believe it without FACTS...

For instance, how many total linkage slots are there available through the Penn program? And then how many people complete the program each cycle? And can somebody deliver the post bacc class GPA stats to us (mean, median, range, etc)? Let's get some facts in here before we resort to "I heard" as the source of claims that people with a low 3.X are getting linkage acceptances through Penn...
 
ahh postbacker...

Most of what people are saying here are true. Penn has linkage programs with maybe 10 schools many of which require a 3.1-3.2 gpa AT PENN in bio/chem/orgo/physics....some linkages with penn med for instance require higher (3.6)....before i started i thought this was a joke. Now that i'm finishing up i can say that these classes are no joke and doing this well is actually very difficult.

If you do well (B+'s) you are in good shape for med school. Specifically local schools (drexel, temple, pcom) appear to really like penn grads/post-baccs.

If anyone wants/needs facts i believe they are only available when inquiring about admission to the program. I DO KNOW that any pre-health student (never taken a science course) is eligible for the 7-10 linkages and you apply early in the year before you wish to matriculate. For "special science" students (people finishing pre-reqs or improving record) there are currently two linkages with drexel and RWJ...these are MUCH harder to get and are only open to essentially the top students interested....

if you think you'll only get a 3.0 or so at penn you probably shouldn't come unless you are interested in DO schools (which is fine i am!)....if you think you can crack a 3.5 here you should be in excellent shape for both md/do
 
mynamewastaken said:
ahh postbacker...

Most of what people are saying here are true. Penn has linkage programs with maybe 10 schools many of which require a 3.1-3.2 gpa AT PENN in bio/chem/orgo/physics....some linkages with penn med for instance require higher (3.6)....before i started i thought this was a joke. Now that i'm finishing up i can say that these classes are no joke and doing this well is actually very difficult.

If you do well (B+'s) you are in good shape for med school. Specifically local schools (drexel, temple, pcom) appear to really like penn grads/post-baccs.

If anyone wants/needs facts i believe they are only available when inquiring about admission to the program. I DO KNOW that any pre-health student (never taken a science course) is eligible for the 7-10 linkages and you apply early in the year before you wish to matriculate. For "special science" students (people finishing pre-reqs or improving record) there are currently two linkages with drexel and RWJ...these are MUCH harder to get and are only open to essentially the top students interested....

if you think you'll only get a 3.0 or so at penn you probably shouldn't come unless you are interested in DO schools (which is fine i am!)....if you think you can crack a 3.5 here you should be in excellent shape for both md/do
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Assuming what you are saying about linking with a low 3.x gpa, I would argue that if you do NOT link through Penn, you have KILLED your cumulative GPA for other med schools...

I have looked at the Penn website and downloaded the brochure, and although they are very pretty, there is virtually no information on any of this...I still don't believe that linkages are possible with that low of a GPA without seeing it in writing from an official source...
 
I think that can be true. If you have a weak undergrad GPA and then get a 3.2 BCPM at Penn and don't link you might have a problem.

Penn does typically admit only "strong" students with above average undergrad GPA's so some students are still fine provided they get B's-B+'s BCPM and have a >3.5 overall....i mean like anywhere it's a balancing act but the program has some very nice features and really gives you every advantage possible....the rest is up to the student.
 
mynamewastaken said:
I think that can be true. If you have a weak undergrad GPA and then get a 3.2 BCPM at Penn and don't link you might have a problem.

Penn does typically admit only "strong" students with above average undergrad GPA's so some students are still fine provided they get B's-B+'s BCPM and have a >3.5 overall....i mean like anywhere it's a balancing act but the program has some very nice features and really gives you every advantage possible....the rest is up to the student.
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The linkage schools on the Penn website are not exactly "high up" on my list, either...

I honestly think that "linkage" programs sound great in principle, but in reality if you are a really strong student, you don't need a linkage program and most likely are not all that interested in the schools that offer the linkages...and if everything you and others are saying about grades at Penn is true, you could actually be painting yourself into the corner there where your only option is to link to Drexel or one of the other schools..
 
I would be ecstatic to go to ANY school listed as a link on penn's site....postbacker you must be a very strong applicant congrats.

I think in general post-baccs are not too picky.
 
I am currently a senior nursing student at Penn with a 3.2 gpa, not bad for our nursing program...and am hoping to go directly into a postbacc somewhere. I'm guessing from reading this post that continuing on at Penn(through the post bac pre-health program) would be a bad idea , given my less than stellar gpa. Any thoughts?
 
Postbacker, linkage programs arent for everyone, but they eliminate a lot of the stress in the process. I decided not to link and to take an extra year. Right 2/3 of the ppl i entered my postbac are m2s at gw/pitt and i am just applying. They also knew in aug that they just needed a 3.5 in the program and 9 on each section of the mcat and they were good to go. (Scripps)
 
mynamewastaken said:
I would be ecstatic to go to ANY school listed as a link on penn's site....postbacker you must be a very strong applicant congrats.

I think in general post-baccs are not too picky.
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I, too, would go to any school listed on the Penn website if it was my only option...my point is that none of those schools is ranked very high up on my list of "desirable" schools...I am hoping to get into one of my state schools first...and then there are maybe 15 to 20 OOS schools I may want to give a shot...and perhaps then I would consider some, but not all, of the Penn linkage schools...and to me, that is the biggest drawback of linkage programs - you only get to apply to one - it is a "one and done" system - of course if you don't get the linkage, you are free to apply elsewhere...

As to my "strength" as an applicant - I am in the middle of a post bacc, doing very well...my cum GPA remains high (3.9+) but I anticipate a few bumps in the road...I am at least 8 months away from taking an MCAT, so who knows...I was not interested in any linkage programs when I looked for a post bacc, so for me, it is an overrated feature...

Finally it seems like some potentially bad info is floating around here on "how low can you go" RE GPA to get in one of these linkages through Penn, so all I can say is "caveat emptor" and make sure you get the facts from either Penn or the linkage schools...something just doesn't "smell right" to me about a 3.0 GPA being good enough to link anywhere...
 
postbacker said:
I, too, would go to any school listed on the Penn website if it was my only option...my point is that none of those schools is ranked very high up on my list of "desirable" schools...I am hoping to get into one of my state schools first...and then there are maybe 15 to 20 OOS schools I may want to give a shot...and perhaps then I would consider some, but not all, of the Penn linkage schools...and to me, that is the biggest drawback of linkage programs - you only get to apply to one - it is a "one and done" system - of course if you don't get the linkage, you are free to apply elsewhere...

As to my "strength" as an applicant - I am in the middle of a post bacc, doing very well...my cum GPA remains high (3.9+) but I anticipate a few bumps in the road...I am at least 8 months away from taking an MCAT, so who knows...I was not interested in any linkage programs when I looked for a post bacc, so for me, it is an overrated feature...

Finally it seems like some potentially bad info is floating around here on "how low can you go" RE GPA to get in one of these linkages through Penn, so all I can say is "caveat emptor" and make sure you get the facts from either Penn or the linkage schools...something just doesn't "smell right" to me about a 3.0 GPA being good enough to link anywhere...
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Clearly schools don't value a 3.1 from Penn the same as they would for other schools. IIRC The Dartmouth linkage from Penn requires a 3.1.

Whether or not you consider Dartmouth or U Penn to be attractive medical schools or not, I would argue that most applicants would.

Also, while you do only get to apply to one school as a linkage student, depending on how it is set up, you find out earlier whether you receive conditional acceptance (earlier than EDP even, late august/sept) and just need to meet the requirements of the linkage in the program and on the MCAT. As I said in another post, I believe these GPA requirements differ quite a bit between programs. IIRC the DMS linkage from BM requires a 3.5 or 3.75, I can't remember the number, while the number from U Penn is 3.1 or 3.2.
 
I am a Penn Postbac student and the numbers are true. You can link to Temple, and I believe Drexel, with a 3.2. You also have to pull 9's on each section of the MCAT, which could be challenging for some.

Here is the real deal at Penn. Ok the basic science classes can suck, particularly gen chem. It is really tough and curved to that C+/B-. MOST of the students are pre-med, but not all. It is a pre-health program, so there are some people there for the PA program or nursing, but it is mostly pre-med. Not everyone is a gunner pre-med. A friend took the first semester with the post bacs and the second with the undergrads. He got the same grade both times. So, to sum up, the postbac basic science classes are challenging, but no more challenging then the undergrad classes (some might even argue that they are a tad easier, particularly since the undergrads are advised not to take any courses at our college if they are pre-med!)

Now, here is the hidden truth about the Penn program. The special science classes are MUCH easier than the basic science classes. Therefore, many of my friends that are linking (I'm not, I had taken the pre-reqs ages ago and don't qualify...but I retook gen chem to refresh and prep for mcat) are taking a combination of these easier special science classes with their basic sciences. This means they are at Penn for at least two years, some people are there for three or more if they need to do any serious gpa repair. But, you can bring up your bpcm gpa signficantly with these upper level classes. And, the linkage schools don't require you to take all of the basic sciences first.

The linkages are competitive, there are about ten to fifteen competing for each spot. I would argue though that if you have the grades and have taken enough credits to prove yourself, that you will likely be recommended to interview. At that point, it depends on how well you interview at the school. You also have to maintain your gpa after you are provisionally accepted, but that usually isn't a problem if you got a good gpa in the first place (and balance out those tough classes with easier ones).

Aside from the linkage stuff, I think it looks really good to the med schools if you do well here. The staff has been proactive getting the admissions directors to either come to Penn or having us visit them at their schools. They are always very complementary of their med students who came from our post bac, so that reflects well.

If anyone has any questions, PM me as I don't check this board that often. Good luck to everyone.
 
Lshapley said:
I am a Penn Postbac student and the numbers are true. You can link to Temple, and I believe Drexel, with a 3.2. You also have to pull 9's on each section of the MCAT, which could be challenging for some.

Here is the real deal at Penn. Ok the basic science classes can suck, particularly gen chem. It is really tough and curved to that C+/B-. MOST of the students are pre-med, but not all. It is a pre-health program, so there are some people there for the PA program or nursing, but it is mostly pre-med. Not everyone is a gunner pre-med. A friend took the first semester with the post bacs and the second with the undergrads. He got the same grade both times. So, to sum up, the postbac basic science classes are challenging, but no more challenging then the undergrad classes (some might even argue that they are a tad easier, particularly since the undergrads are advised not to take any courses at our college if they are pre-med!)

Now, here is the hidden truth about the Penn program. The special science classes are MUCH easier than the basic science classes. Therefore, many of my friends that are linking (I'm not, I had taken the pre-reqs ages ago and don't qualify...but I retook gen chem to refresh and prep for mcat) are taking a combination of these easier special science classes with their basic sciences. This means they are at Penn for at least two years, some people are there for three or more if they need to do any serious gpa repair. But, you can bring up your bpcm gpa signficantly with these upper level classes. And, the linkage schools don't require you to take all of the basic sciences first.

The linkages are competitive, there are about ten to fifteen competing for each spot. I would argue though that if you have the grades and have taken enough credits to prove yourself, that you will likely be recommended to interview. At that point, it depends on how well you interview at the school. You also have to maintain your gpa after you are provisionally accepted, but that usually isn't a problem if you got a good gpa in the first place (and balance out those tough classes with easier ones).

Aside from the linkage stuff, I think it looks really good to the med schools if you do well here. The staff has been proactive getting the admissions directors to either come to Penn or having us visit them at their schools. They are always very complementary of their med students who came from our post bac, so that reflects well.

If anyone has any questions, PM me as I don't check this board that often. Good luck to everyone.
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Finally, something approaching a "fact" - if the linkages are this competitive (10 to 15 apps for each spot), while I can believe that the "minimum" GPA and MCAT required to apply for a linkage is 3.2/27, can you cite the actual stats for the people who get into the linkages? Surely it is higher than 3.2/27??? Otherwise it makes no sense to me...particularly the 27...I mean isn't that well below the average matriculant MCAT at Drexel? Is it possible some of you are confusing post bacc linkages with 8 year BS/MD programs with guaranteed admissions if you score a balanced 27 plus maintain a minimum GPA?
 
drizzt3117 said:
Clearly schools don't value a 3.1 from Penn the same as they would for other schools. IIRC The Dartmouth linkage from Penn requires a 3.1.

Whether or not you consider Dartmouth or U Penn to be attractive medical schools or not, I would argue that most applicants would.

Also, while you do only get to apply to one school as a linkage student, depending on how it is set up, you find out earlier whether you receive conditional acceptance (earlier than EDP even, late august/sept) and just need to meet the requirements of the linkage in the program and on the MCAT. As I said in another post, I believe these GPA requirements differ quite a bit between programs. IIRC the DMS linkage from BM requires a 3.5 or 3.75, I can't remember the number, while the number from U Penn is 3.1 or 3.2.
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I was not aware that there were linkages to Dartmouth and Penn through the Penn post bacc, so my bad on missing them (and I just looked, and don't see Dartmouth listed on the website, so what gives?). Schools like Drexel and Temple are the ones I referred to as being "lower" on my personal list of desirables...not that there's anything wrong with them...

Linkages are not "automatic" deals for someone, particularly if that someone has only the bare minimum GPA for applying - my point is that surely it is more competitive (read the prior post from an actual Penn student) to actually win one of the linkage spots than is being implied by the minimums...

Whatever...I am not looking for a post bacc...good luck to everyone, but be sure to get the "facts" about how the linkages work through the Penn post bacc if that is what attracts you to it...
 
The MCAT is taken after you are prelimarily accepted into the linkage. What happens is during your first year you take a bunch of classes (mostly basic sciences with a sprinkle of upper levels to help that gpa) and then in the summer, you reply to the program director that you would like to be nominated for linkage to School X. The directors of the Penn program review everyone who wants to be nominated and then officially presents a number of them to School X as official nominees from Penn. For instance, at Jefferson this summer, there about 9 to 11 students nominated from Penn. I believe about 4 or 5 of these were offered the preliminary linkage. I do not know how many people expressed interest, but I believe it is a self-selecting process to a certain extent. Either you have the numbers or you don't. I only feel like you won't be officially nominated by Penn unless you have some red flag, but I could be wrong on this (does anybody know?) For instance, I inquired about a special science linkage to Robert Wood Johnson, but didn't have enough credits at the time to qualify for nomination. Also, as far as I know, the RWJ is the only linkage available to special science students. And, I never heard about Dartmouth either, unless that is something new. I don't think we link there. All the other linkages are for students who have had absolutely no basic science classes before Penn.

Now, with the MCAT. Yes, postbacker, it is low but it is not taken until the Spring after you have been provisionally accepted. Therefore the school is saying, "Ok, you have good grades, good ec's and seem like a good person. We would like to have you. Now, just make sure to get above a 9 on each section on the MCAT and you are good."

Anyway, the whole process seems a lot less stressful to me and I would do it in a heartbeat if I qualified. The wait time is significantly reduced and the MCAT is less emphasized. I don't even think you have to write some great, eye-catching personal statment (although you do have to fill out an AMCAS).

Hope that answers some questions.
 
Lshapley said:
The MCAT is taken after you are prelimarily accepted into the linkage. What happens is during your first year you take a bunch of classes (mostly basic sciences with a sprinkle of upper levels to help that gpa) and then in the summer, you reply to the program director that you would like to be nominated for linkage to School X. The directors of the Penn program review everyone who wants to be nominated and then officially presents a number of them to School X as official nominees from Penn. For instance, at Jefferson this summer, there about 9 to 11 students nominated from Penn. I believe about 4 or 5 of these were offered the preliminary linkage. I do not know how many people expressed interest, but I believe it is a self-selecting process to a certain extent. Either you have the numbers or you don't. I only feel like you won't be officially nominated by Penn unless you have some red flag, but I could be wrong on this (does anybody know?) For instance, I inquired about a special science linkage to Robert Wood Johnson, but didn't have enough credits at the time to qualify for nomination. Also, as far as I know, the RWJ is the only linkage available to special science students. And, I never heard about Dartmouth either, unless that is something new. I don't think we link there. All the other linkages are for students who have had absolutely no basic science classes before Penn.

Now, with the MCAT. Yes, postbacker, it is low but it is not taken until the Spring after you have been provisionally accepted. Therefore the school is saying, "Ok, you have good grades, good ec's and seem like a good person. We would like to have you. Now, just make sure to get above a 9 on each section on the MCAT and you are good."

Anyway, the whole process seems a lot less stressful to me and I would do it in a heartbeat if I qualified. The wait time is significantly reduced and the MCAT is less emphasized. I don't even think you have to write some great, eye-catching personal statment (although you do have to fill out an AMCAS).

Hope that answers some questions.
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Again, thanks for revealing something akin to a fact here...I honestly think some people do not understand the competitive nature of the linkage system - as you have indicated, not all applicants who submit an application get nominated by the post bacc, and then not all those nominated ultimately win a prelim linkage...that is what I am trying to "drill down" for the edification of thread readers...
 
postbacker said:
Again, thanks for revealing something akin to a fact here...I honestly think some people do not understand the competitive nature of the linkage system - as you have indicated, not all applicants who submit an application get nominated by the post bacc, and then not all those nominated ultimately win a prelim linkage...that is what I am trying to "drill down" for the edification of thread readers...
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Yeah, I've seen that at Penn to a certain extent. I think that there is this mindset of "Well, I screwed up in undergrad and all I have to do is take these classes at this postbac and I'll get into med school X, no problem!" But the truth is that the postbac classwork, to a certain extent, is just as challenging as the undergrad, and depending on where you did an undergrad it is even more so. Like I said earlier at Penn, it appears to me that the basic sciences are about as difficult as the undergrad basic science classes. You can do some gpa repair with the upper level sciences, but for linkage you need to get above a 3.2 to have a shot. Also, intangibles matter. If the director of the program thinks you appear immature or unprofessional, that is your funeral.

That being said, if you plan to work hard and know you have the ability to excel and be professional, the Penn program (and others) offer a great reward in those linkages. They just don't come as a free perk with the price of tuition.
 
I apologize for my statement regarding DMS. The linkages to DMS are from Columbia, not Penn, (as well as BM) but I believe the GPA number that I quoted is indeed accurate. However, there is a linkage to Penn from Penn, which is certainly going to be very competitive, but another Penn student noted that the minimum GPA for linkage in the program was 3.6. I have no idea whether students that get that number are competitive or not, so I'll defer to other, more knowledgeable people about that.

As far as linkage goes, at least from Scripps (and I assume BM/Goucher, who are similar in their linkage profiles) there is a minimum GPA/MCAT cutoff (9 on each section, 3.5 GPA in the program) and you are essentially eligible for an interview after doing well in summer general chemistry (I think 80% of people who take those two classes get As) and as far as I know, no one who has applied to the linkage program to GW has failed to obtain conditional acceptance assuming that they are finishing the program in one year and don't have prior science courses. Not everyone meets the MCAT cutoff but I have not heard of anyone who has failed to obtain the necessary GPA in the program.

IIRC, GW generously gives people who fail to meet the MCAT cutoff until May of the following year to obtain 9 on each section of the MCAT (at one sitting) for admission in the following year's class.

In my entering class, I believe 8 out of 15 students linked to GW (one took an extra year to qualify but eventually did) and the ones who didn't link chose to apply open pool, and I believe all of the ones who applied for 2007 admission are M1s now, with at least half of those students attending schools in Southern California.

Certainly one can make the argument that top students don't need a top formal postbac program, but my point is that although the 100% acceptance rate is clearly due to the fact that such programs are very selective in who they admit to their schools, certainly the top programs have been very successful in having their students admitted to top schools. Certainly much of that is going to be because of the quality of the program, but there is a great deal of support and advising from the administration and the reputation of the postbac programs themselves do seem to matter to some degree, if only because of knowledge of the admissions committees etc.
 
drizzt3117 said:
I apologize for my statement regarding DMS. The linkages to DMS are from Columbia, not Penn, (as well as BM) but I believe the GPA number that I quoted is indeed accurate. However, there is a linkage to Penn from Penn, which is certainly going to be very competitive, but another Penn student noted that the minimum GPA for linkage in the program was 3.6. I have no idea whether students that get that number are competitive or not, so I'll defer to other, more knowledgeable people about that.

As far as linkage goes, at least from Scripps (and I assume BM/Goucher, who are similar in their linkage profiles) there is a minimum GPA/MCAT cutoff (9 on each section, 3.5 GPA in the program) and you are essentially eligible for an interview after doing well in summer general chemistry (I think 80% of people who take those two classes get As) and as far as I know, no one who has applied to the linkage program to GW has failed to obtain conditional acceptance assuming that they are finishing the program in one year and don't have prior science courses. Not everyone meets the MCAT cutoff but I have not heard of anyone who has failed to obtain the necessary GPA in the program.

IIRC, GW generously gives people who fail to meet the MCAT cutoff until May of the following year to obtain 9 on each section of the MCAT (at one sitting) for admission in the following year's class.

In my entering class, I believe 8 out of 15 students linked to GW (one took an extra year to qualify but eventually did) and the ones who didn't link chose to apply open pool, and I believe all of the ones who applied for 2007 admission are M1s now, with at least half of those students attending schools in Southern California.

Certainly one can make the argument that top students don't need a top formal postbac program, but my point is that although the 100% acceptance rate is clearly due to the fact that such programs are very selective in who they admit to their schools, certainly the top programs have been very successful in having their students admitted to top schools. Certainly much of that is going to be because of the quality of the program, but there is a great deal of support and advising from the administration and the reputation of the postbac programs themselves do seem to matter to some degree, if only because of knowledge of the admissions committees etc.
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Acceptance rates can be very deceiving...there is high attrition in some of these "top" programs (e.g., Columbia) and so the number of people who survive and finish the program is much lower than the number who started it, and the program "acceptance rates" are based on the survivors, not the original matriculants...the reported attrition rates at Columbia IIRC are very high, upwards of 50 percent (don't quote me on it, but it was high)...again, caveat emptor...

Earlier on another Penn thread, someone posted a very high (perhaps 95 percent) Penn post bacc med school matriculation rate, but if you read the fine print on the website, this covers all the "pre health" students and includes dental, nursing, PA, etc...and then there is the problem of unaccounted attrition not included in the rate...

My main point in this thread dealt with the linkages through Penn, and finally someone put some numbers up which indicate to me that it is quite competitive to link through Penn, even to "lowly" Drexel and Temple, and not nearly as simple or straight forward as some posters have indicated...anybody who goes to Penn post bacc thinking they can kick back and make less than a B+ average and "link" could be in for a big surprise, that's all I am saying...

Ultimately, your post bacc grades feed into your UG GPA (and for most of us non-trads these post bacc grades constitute most if not all of our BCPM GPA), and it would be foolish to assume that the prestige of the Penn post bacc program will buy you some sort of free pass in the med school admissions game with a low 3.X GPA...the MSAR stats apply to these folks, too...
 
I generally agree with postbacker. Nothing comes easy, you have to work for it. Just getting into a postbac means nothing. As a matter of fact, it is the first step in a long, long journey.

Just want to add something about Penn linkage to Penn. In order to qualify you need an undergrad gpa of 3.6 as well as a postbac gpa of 3.6. That is a very select group. I have no idea what the mcat is, but it must be at least all 9's if not all 10's.
 
postbacker,

The top three top formal postbac programs (BM, Scripps, Goucher) don't have high attrition. While the occasional person does end up not finishing the program, my understanding from discussions with the schools and direct experience is that most of the people (90+% at least) will finish the program, receive their certificates, and the acceptance rates are what they are. While certainly some people are part time, take longer to graduate (either because they are working, or end up deciding they want a lighter course load), and in very rare cases, reapply, it's not a stretch to say that the vast majority of people who enter one of the top formal programs will be in medical school within three years of starting the program.

Penn, Columbia, and HES are not quite at this level for a number of reasons, primarily selectivity. I know a number of applicants with 3.9+ cGPA/1400+ SAT scores that were rejected from these programs for primarily qualitative reasons. They want to know that 1) you have the grades/scores/intelligence to succeed in medical school, and 2) you have the dedication/desire to stick with it even if it is difficult.

One could make the argument that the candidates that do make it into these programs could just as easily get into medical school with an informal postbac for significantly less money, and this is probably true. However, the support, linkage programs, advising, and knowledge and familiarity with the admissions process and ADCOMs that are available through programs that have been around for decades has value and some people think it's worth the investment in their future.

I agree that linkage from other programs (Penn, Columbia) may not be quite as easy, but that is primarily because the programs are less selective so the individual medical schools aren't quite as convinced that the quality of applicants from that program will be as uniformly high. That said, many people do still successfully link from these programs. The advice to do some research on the qualifications necessary to successfully link is good though.

One other comment, Lshapley, while it might be hard to have a 3.6 cGPA and 3.6 in the Penn program and 10s on the MCAT, if that is really what the qualifications are for linkage to Penn, the entering average cGPA/MCAT for Penn is 3.8/35 or higher most years so one could argue that if you could really link there with 3.6 entering, 3.6 cGPA at Penn, and 30 MCAT, that that would be a much easier path.
 
drizzt3117 said:
One other comment, Lshapley, while it might be hard to have a 3.6 cGPA and 3.6 in the Penn program and 10s on the MCAT, if that is really what the qualifications are for linkage to Penn, the entering average cGPA/MCAT for Penn is 3.8/35 or higher most years so one could argue that if you could really link there with 3.6 entering, 3.6 cGPA at Penn, and 30 MCAT, that that would be a much easier path.
Click to expand...

No doubt, I'm just saying it's not money in the bank. Right off the bat, many students at Penn Postbac don't qualify for the Penn Med linkage because their undergrad gpa is below 3.6. Many of the students with >3.6 gpas are at Bryn Mawr, Goucher, etc. Add to that the curved basic science classes where you need to be a standard deviation above the class average to receive an A-, and you can see that it is not automatic.

I can't speak for Postbacker, but I think he was just reacting to people with unrealistic expectations. If you want to argue about a formal vs. informal postbac, then that is another thing altogether.

Also, Penn's tuition isn't outrageous. I don't know about Columbia, et alia. Penn is a bit under $2,000/course, while the undergrad is about $5,000/course. Most people take 3 classes a term, and you get a committee letter after 5 courses.
 
Lshapley said:
No doubt, I'm just saying it's not money in the bank. Right off the bat, many students at Penn Postbac don't qualify for the Penn Med linkage because their undergrad gpa is below 3.6. Many of the students with >3.6 gpas are at Bryn Mawr, Goucher, etc. Add to that the curved basic science classes where you need to be a standard deviation above the class average to receive an A-, and you can see that it is not automatic.

I can't speak for Postbacker, but I think he was just reacting to people with unrealistic expectations. If you want to argue about a formal vs. informal postbac, then that is another thing altogether.

Also, Penn's tuition isn't outrageous. I don't know about Columbia, et alia. Penn is a bit under $2,000/course, while the undergrad is about $5,000/course. Most people take 3 classes a term, and you get a committee letter after 5 courses.
Click to expand...

Thanks, and you are correct about what I was reacting to...I am not arguing formal vs informal, although I now feel qualified to comment on this as I am on the "inside" of one right now...

I am in a formal post bacc at a "top drawer, name brand" college...it has no linkages, but that did not matter to me in the least...but I have not been "blown away" with the support structure or any of the "extras" they do for us - it is a good marketing ploy for them to attract applicants, but I am not so sure that I think they are doing that much for me...the bottom line in any post bacc is that you have to work your tail off and get the grades...but I am glad that my committee letter will come with their letterhead, that's for sure...

I think that with the proper motivation, one can succeed at an informal post bacc just as well, and usually at a much cheaper price tag...and I would tell anyone that if they need to get their pre reqs done at a CC for financial reasons, then go for it...
 
Agreed, postbacker. Don't underestimate the value of that committee letter though. Just take a gander over at pre-allo and look at all the students who have to collect and endless line of recommendations to satisfy the various letters requests (they're nowhere near uniform) from the med schools. All I applied to take my committee letter. If it is a good school, you get the bonus of the prestige.
 
Lshapley said:
Agreed, postbacker. Don't underestimate the value of that committee letter though. Just take a gander over at pre-allo and look at all the students who have to collect and endless line of recommendations to satisfy the various letters requests (they're nowhere near uniform) from the med schools. All I applied to take my committee letter. If it is a good school, you get the bonus of the prestige.
Click to expand...

The committee letter is the #1 reason I chose the formal post bacc I attend over a "do it yourself" post bacc...and it is costing me more $ in tuition and fees...but I think it is worth it...I am just not finding any of the other stuff all that worthwhile, or at least not when you consider the added cost of a formal post bacc...i.e., if there was no committee letter in this deal, I would feel like I am getting ripped off...
 
FWIW - I sent an email to Penn a few days ago, asking about the linkage program, etc., and the reply email today simply gave me a copy of the brochure which is very colorful and pretty but is also very thin on details...so if anyone really wants to know the deal on the linkages, you are going to have to call them, I guess...

I tried...
 
Lshapley said:
Agreed, postbacker. Don't underestimate the value of that committee letter though. Just take a gander over at pre-allo and look at all the students who have to collect and endless line of recommendations to satisfy the various letters requests (they're nowhere near uniform) from the med schools. All I applied to take my committee letter. If it is a good school, you get the bonus of the prestige.
Click to expand...

Is it possible to obtain a committee letter if you don't complete all the pre-reqs in program? For example, I'm going to have a year of Inorganic Chem and a year of Physics before I start my postbac. I'm going to take Biochem, Genetics, and probably Immunology after I get done with those, so I still might end up still having 30-32 credit hrs.
 
Alvarez13 said:
Is it possible to obtain a committee letter if you don't complete all the pre-reqs in program? For example, I'm going to have a year of Inorganic Chem and a year of Physics before I start my postbac. I'm going to take Biochem, Genetics, and probably Immunology after I get done with those, so I still might end up still having 30-32 credit hrs.
Click to expand...

It depends on the school, I guess...if you are doing an informal post bacc at a 4 year college, you certainly should inquire and avail yourself of any services that the pre med committee might offer...not all schools do "committee letters" to begin with...but I think most formal post bacc programs offer this kind of service, mainly so you don't have to go stand in line with all of the other undergrads...
 
I received a committee letter after completing 18 credit hours, which was six courses. That is certainly on the low end for a postbac, the bare minimum at Penn.
 
lshapley, i was just wondering, how many credits do you need to qualify for a special science linkage at RWJ?
 
cannedhead325 said:
lshapley, i was just wondering, how many credits do you need to qualify for a special science linkage at RWJ?
Click to expand...

You need to take 6 3-credit classes to qualify. It is actually an accelerated acceptance program, not a linkage. The difference is you are interviewed in June and then begin school just a couple of months later, whereas with a linkage you have at least a year between interview and the start of classes.

I wouldn't worry too much about this, as I believe it is highly competitive. It is the only opportunity for special science kids, so everyone wants it. My one friend, who did do this linkage, was just a total superstar both as a student and as a person.
 
Hi everyone,

To the people who are in or completed the Penn post bac, how many of your classmates (or, better yet, historically) did Penn Med ultimately accept (via linkage and non-linkage/post-glide)? The number will likely vary year by year, but I'm very curious.

Thanks so much,
NYC
 
Hi everyone,

To the people who are in or completed the Penn post bac, how many of your classmates (or, better yet, historically) did Penn Med ultimately accept (via linkage and non-linkage/post-glide)? The number will likely vary year by year, but I'm very curious.

Thanks so much,
NYC
 
Lokhtar said:
I believe the minimum required to link is a 3.6 and not having had the courses before. With that said, I would think the guys who link/get accepted are those that would have had a chance to get into Penn medical anyway (eg. 3.8, 34+ MCAT, great ECs).

I do not think it would necessarily give you a big advantage whether you did well at a Penn post-bacc or any other well regarded one.
Click to expand...

Well you have no glide year if you are at Penn and link to Penn. If you read the post you'll see that the the OP is interested in avoiding a glide year if it's possible.
 
NYerCartoonist said:
Hi everyone,

To the people who are in or completed the Penn post bac, how many of your classmates (or, better yet, historically) did Penn Med ultimately accept (via linkage and non-linkage/post-glide)? The number will likely vary year by year, but I'm very curious.

Thanks so much,
NYC
Click to expand...

None have even been accepted historically through the linkage because it is brand new. Whoever is accepted this year will be the first, and I believe they just had the interviews last week for it. I have no idea how many have historically gotten in through the traditional route. But really, this doesn't matter. There is no preference shown towards Penn postbac students by the med school that I know of, aside from this new linkage agreement. I have always been under the impression that we have as good (and as bad) a chance as anyone else applying from anywhere else.
 
i was reading through this tread and i came across the term "commitee letter". What is this exactly? Is it a letter that a person gets after finishing a formal postbac?
 
collegegrad said:
i was reading through this tread and i came across the term "commitee letter". What is this exactly? Is it a letter that a person gets after finishing a formal postbac?
Click to expand...

For Univ of Penn, if you take 6 or more classes, the program will write you a letter of recommendation. Univ of Penn's a great school, so I'm sure it would be a nice addition to your application. However, students are still encouraged to get letters from their professors and doctors they've worked with in addition.
 
I talked to one of the program heads today. Apparently I'm not a very good candidate for the pre-health program. While my GPA and experience is great, I've already taken a year of inorganic chem, a year of physics, a semester of bio, and about every other math/physics course you could think of. The pre-health program is mainly looking for people who haven't taken any of the classes yet.

She recommended I apply for Penn's special science post-bac. I should be able to take those last 3 pre-reqs and get into genetics, biochem and some other cool electives later. I'm really hopin' this works out. With me graduating this December and having taken a bunch of the pre-reqs in a weird order, my schedule is pretty screwed up.
 
My boyfriend is about to complete the UPENN program. He is a nontraditional pre med student. He has only gotten 2 B's in the whole program....the rest were all A's..Orgo 1, 2, Physics 1,2...etc....But let me tell you HE HAS STUDIED HIS BUTT OFF!! IT has been intense. We are both hoping that since he completed this program with such great grades and his undergrad GPA is excellent that he has good chance....what do u all think???? This is so nerve racking. I think he would recommend the program to others though...
 
How long does it take to hear from Penn after you apply? Anyone know?

Also, what's the best way to send them your SAT scores?
 
I did undergrad at UPenn, and am now applying for postbacs. I had a 3.78 GPA in English, strong leadership extra-currics, etc. Would this put in me an okay position to link to Penn Med (do you guys think)?

Additionally, which do you think would make more sense: UPenn or BM? (I am awaiting a response from BM currently, though my SATS were 1550, strong science SAT IIs, etc., so I'm hopeful.) Ideally I want to link into Penn, but I'd be happy to link into any of the Philly Med schools.

Which of the two programs (assuming I get into BM, which obviously is not a given) do you think would stand me in better stead?
 
I would say BM as well, even though I am a Penn postbac alum!
 
does anyone know anything about the upenn postbacc special sciences program...not the post bacc lacking pre-reqs, what is the matriculation rate of the special science students, is the program selective (i have a 3.44 and taking mcat april), and whats the curriculum like, is there a thesis invovled?
 
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