AMSA Article on Osteopathic Medicine

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Nice article. It covers a good amount of topics honestly. 👍
 
I applied for it, but was not cool enough. I'm sure a few of the members from the one that denied me are on these boards. 😉 I don't care that much, just wished they knew basic business tact with post interview notifications. Probably didn't like the fact that I questioned there general goals and motivations since the website was down and I had no idea what they wanted to do aside from have doctors speak to us.
 
?I am confused? AMSA is the american medical student association - you don't have to apply, it is a national club that you can join on their website and most schools including many osteopathic schools have chapters on campus. Sounds like your pre-AMSA chapter at school excluded you - are they even allowed to do that?
AMSA is a great organization with lots of good resources for students

MossPoh said:
I applied for it, but was not cool enough. I'm sure a few of the members from the one that denied me are on these boards. 😉 I don't care that much, just wished they knew basic business tact with post interview notifications. Probably didn't like the fact that I questioned there general goals and motivations since the website was down and I had no idea what they wanted to do aside from have doctors speak to us.
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MossPoh said:
I applied for it, but was not cool enough. I'm sure a few of the members from the one that denied me are on these boards. 😉 I don't care that much, just wished they knew basic business tact with post interview notifications. Probably didn't like the fact that I questioned there general goals and motivations since the website was down and I had no idea what they wanted to do aside from have doctors speak to us.
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How do you get rejected from AMSA?
 
i see a day when DO residencies will admit MD students.
 
Unfortunately, the perception lingers that many people attend osteopathic schools because they were unable to get into allopathic schools. In fact, the entrance requirements are fairly similar. Osteopathic schools do place less emphasis on numbers (MCAT scores and GPAs) than allopathic schools, says Shannon, but they place more emphasis on personal characteristics and other attributes.
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This is BS. DO schools KNOW they dont get the same caliber of applicants as MD programs, so therefore they come up with some soft, non-quantifiable, fudge factor as nothing more than a marketing ploy. 🙄



For some people, it may actually be harder to get into an osteopathic medical school. “That it is easier to get in is a common slam [on osteopathic schools], but the data don’t really support that,” says medical historian and M.D. Howell.
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Right 🙄 .................... and this is true because some random idiot named Howell who nobody has ever heard of before, says its true.

Of course no DO article is complete without the 2nd leg of DO marketing, the so-called "MDs treat only diseases, DOs treat the whole person" BS. The NPs claim that exact same bogus marketing ploy.
 
BTW, AMSA also takes at face value everything from aromatherapy to chiropractic. Actual evidence-based medicine is NOT one of their platforms.
 
I think the fact that it's easier to get into is blantantly obvious to anyone who has seen the numbers. Saying they are both as hard to get into is just an appeasment for ignorant people reading the article. I don't see why pointing out that it's easier to get into is a "slam". Not every person who would be a good doctor has planned on going into medicine since they started college, and thus did not get a competitive enough GPA.

I agree about the, "Treat the whole person" trash. It is meaningless.

But what I thought was good about the article was that it covered OMM honestly. Many people just anecdotally throw themselves behind it, but theres really no scientific base for it... They didn't trash it, but they brought up the fact that it's usefulness is mostly to make the student feel useful, and establish a bond between doctor and patient.
 
MacGyver said:
This is BS. DO schools KNOW they dont get the same caliber of applicants as MD programs, so therefore they come up with some soft, non-quantifiable, fudge factor as nothing more than a marketing ploy. 🙄





Right 🙄 .................... and this is true because some random idiot named Howell who nobody has ever heard of before, says its true.

Of course no DO article is complete without the 2nd leg of DO marketing, the so-called "MDs treat only diseases, DOs treat the whole person" BS. The NPs claim that exact same bogus marketing ploy.
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If you take a hard look at the GPA & MCAT data you will see that there are students who are accepted at state allopathic schools like SIU, North Dakota and others who would be below average in GPA & MCAT terms at the most demanding DO schools like PCOM, NYCOM and CCOM.

Dr. Howell teaches at the University of Michigan. Is U of M asking you to interview for a spot on their faculty?

MacGyver, you fall into that 30% of physicians whose narcissism makes them the most common butt of jokes in law firms, architectural firms and CPA firms.

Question: What is the difference between God and a doctor?

Answer: God doesn't think he's a doctor.
 
FinchHead said:
I think the fact that it's easier to get into is blantantly obvious to anyone who has seen the numbers.
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I was speaking to a DO adcom member about this. At their school, they look at the MCAT & GPA to see if they are high enough to pass medical school. After that, they never look at GPA and MCAT again. After crossing that threshhold, it doesn't matter how high you went over. It's the other stuff that's more important to them. Thus, they will obviously admit more lower-stat people than a school who uses stats as a primary consideration.

I don't think it's easier to get in there, just different.
 
AKN said:
I was speaking to a DO adcom member about this. At their school, they look at the MCAT & GPA to see if they are high enough to pass medical school. After that, they never look at GPA and MCAT again. After crossing that threshhold, it doesn't matter how high you went over. It's the other stuff that's more important to them. Thus, they will obviously admit more lower-stat people than a school who uses stats as a primary consideration.

I don't think it's easier to get in there, just different.
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Then we agree number wise, DO is easier to get in to. So outside of numbers, it is pretty much up to EC's, PS, LOR's, and interview. To say DO applicants are consistently better in these areas is not true. I'd say they are exactly on par with MD applicants, going the full scale from mediocre to outstanding. Barring all those factors, it does come down the the numbers, and the numbers are lower for DO.
 
FinchHead said:
Then we agree number wise, DO is easier to get in to. So outside of numbers, it is pretty much up to EC's, PS, LOR's, and interview. To say DO applicants are consistently better in these areas is not true. I'd say they are exactly on par with MD applicants, going the full scale from mediocre to outstanding. Barring all those factors, it does come down the the numbers, and the numbers are lower for DO.
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As a matter of averages across the entire spectrum of MD and DO schools it is undoubtedly true that MCAT scores and GPAs at MD schools are higher than the averages at DO programs. However, I have absolutely no doubt that many people who attend the most competitive DO programs have better numbers than some of the students at the least competitive state MD schools. It would take 10 minutes to see this at mdapplicants.com

One factor that no one wants to mention is pure nepotism. If you look at the numbers at mdapplicants.com and see some of the low outliers who were accepted, you have to wonder how some people got in and others didn't. You will never be able to document "pull". All it takes is a phone call, a wink and a nod.

Look at the last presidential election. Kerry and Bush had SAT's of about 1,200 and they each got into Yale. How did that happen?
 
The real question is - does it matter what the entrance stats are? What should be of interest is what the graduating product is like. If you can pass boards and med school, why in the world does it matter in the slightest what your UGRAD GPA was? Because by that defiition, since IVY schools certainly have better stats than non-Ivy, you shouldn't be allowed to apply to medical school unless you went to a top 50 school.
 
Obnoxious Dad said:
If you take a hard look at the GPA & MCAT data you will see that there are students who are accepted at state allopathic schools like SIU, North Dakota and others who would be below average in GPA & MCAT terms at the most demanding DO schools like PCOM, NYCOM and CCOM.

Dr. Howell teaches at the University of Michigan. Is U of M asking you to interview for a spot on their faculty?

MacGyver, you fall into that 30% of physicians whose narcissism makes them the most common butt of jokes in law firms, architectural firms and CPA firms.

Question: What is the difference between God and a doctor?

Answer: God doesn't think he's a doctor.
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SIU's average matriculant MCAT is 27 and GPA is 3.5 - that's not below any of the DO schools. I don't know about North Dakota, but I can compare SIU and CCOM since I got into both.

Another interesting thing to note is that SIU is one of the few (if not the only) MD school that has their student body scoring above the nat'l avg. on the USMLEs despite lower MCAT scores. To me, that means a good curriculum, and that's what counts in my book.
 
Lokhtar said:
The real question is - does it matter what the entrance stats are? What should be of interest is what the graduating product is like. If you can pass boards and med school, why in the world does it matter in the slightest what your UGRAD GPA was? Because by that defiition, since IVY schools certainly have better stats than non-Ivy, you shouldn't be allowed to apply to medical school unless you went to a top 50 school.
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With so many applicants (upwards of 40K next year probably for both MD and DO), there has to be a way to level the playing field. GPA and MCAT do that. If everyone were evaluated course by course and EC by EC, the application season would be 2-3 years instead of one.

I see nothing wrong with using GPA and MCAT as entrance requirements.
 
megboo said:
SIU's average matriculant MCAT is 27 and GPA is 3.5 - that's not below any of the DO schools.

Another interesting thing to note is that SIU is one of the few (if not the only) MD school that has their student body scoring about the nat'l avg. on the USMLEs despite lower MCAT scores. To me, that means a good curriculum, and that's what counts in my book.
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Please reread my earlier post. I said that schools like SIU had students with numbers that were below average at the most demanding DO programs. With an MCAT average of 27, SIU would have to have some students in the 24-26 range. Those MCAT's would undoubtedly be below the average at PCOM, CCOM and NYCOM.

Thanks for proving my point.🙂
 
megboo said:
With so many applicants (upwards of 40K next year probably for both MD and DO), there has to be a way to level the playing field. GPA and MCAT do that. If everyone were evaluated course by course and EC by EC, the application season would be 2-3 years instead of one.

I see nothing wrong with using GPA and MCAT as entrance requirements.
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Err, I did not say I did either. I said it doesn't matter to the end result what your starting requirements are, if at the end of the four years, the end result is the same.
 
There are allopathic schools like SIU, Florida State, Mercer and Massachusetts that will not accept out of state applicants because of state law restrictions. To make blanket statements about admissions competitiveness between DO and MD programs when that is the case is utterly ridiculous. Furthermore there are URMs who get accepted at allopathic schools who have below average stats at the most competitive DO schools.

Look at the individual data not just the averages.
 
Obnoxious Dad said:
Please reread my earlier post. I said that schools like SIU had students with numbers that were below average at the most demanding DO programs. With an MCAT average of 27, SIU would have to have some students in the 24-26 range. Those MCAT's would undoubtedly be below the average at PCOM, CCOM and NYCOM.

Thanks for proving my point.🙂
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Not really, because the DO schools also take students below their averages. It's really hard to use SIU as an example because the applicant pool is much smaller than say CCOM. SIU is a state school, and they have a preference for southern Illinoisans. They only give out 300-400 secondaries and accepted 150 total last year. They are also a rarity in that they do look past GPA and/or MCAT for interesting candidates as an MD school.

Edit: Obnoxious Dad beat me to this.
 
Lokhtar said:
Err, I did not say I did either. I said it doesn't matter to the end result what your starting requirements are, if at the end of the four years, the end result is the same.
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You started out your post with "The real question is - does it matter what the entrance stats are?"

My point is that there has to be some level to gauge the "starting requirement".
 
megboo said:
You started out your post with "The real question is - does it matter what the entrance stats are?"

My point is that there has to be some level to gauge the "starting requirement".
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And I stand by that comment. It doesn't matter what the entrance stats are in terms of producing an end product. Obviously stats matter to the adcoms because they need to weed out so many applicants, but I don't really care what methods they use to weed people out as long as in the end they are producing doctors.
 
Lokhtar said:
And I stand by that comment. It doesn't matter what the entrance stats are in terms of producing an end product. Obviously stats matter to the adcoms because they need to weed out so many applicants, but I don't really care what methods they use to weed people out as long as in the end they are producing doctors.
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I guess I just interpreted it in a different way.
 
.
 
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Playmakur42 said:
More vintage Obnoxious Dad
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=473593
post #37
I know two women who worked for years as staff nurses in ICU's. They then went to law school and became plaintiffs' personal injury lawyers. They now get the satisfaction of suing pompous physicians who think that nurses are overpaid.
........................................

Why are you, a grown man, trolling around an internet forum for student doctors and making inflammatory comments like this? It seems like you're angry at doctors in general, or perhaps just the choices you've made in your own life.

And remember that post about the nurses becoming lawyers and suing doctors the day your daughter calls you crying because she's a physician being sued by an ambulance chaser over a case that wasn't even her fault. I hope that never happens, but odds are it will.

You make some great posts about finances, which seems to be your area of expertise, then you go and type up this crap. Smarten up, man.

And quit whining about how med school admissions aren't fair (see posts #15,16 this thread). Your rhetoric is just sour grapes.
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It's not sour grapes. I happen to be a well paid professional who lives in one of the most livable cities on the planet. I have a daughter who goes to a rigorous college and I suspect that she will perform well on the MCAT and get into a terrific med school and be a swell doctor.

I cruise these message boards to get information for her. When I encounter revolting, repulsive arrogance and narcissism I can't keep my trap shut. If you will closely examine my provocative posts you will see that this is always the pattern.

The earlier post about nurses becoming plaintiffs personal injury lawyers was made in reaction to posts by an arrogant twerp who thought that nurses were overpaid. I didn't mind his his ignorance. He had never cracked an economics book in his life I'm sure. It was the tone that bugged me.

You can also see from some of my earlier posts that I have mocked my own scientific stupidity. I am a scientific *****. However, I know economics, tax, public policy and the law because I am credentialed in those areas. I try to help people get a grip when they pose questions in an honest effort to get information. I have spent hours preparing some posts about taxes, loans etc. to help students and residents.

Please be on notice, however, that when I see DO and nurse bashing by arrogant jerks, I'm going to bark back.😡
 
megboo said:
OD - why can't your daughter get her own information?
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I cruise SDN rather than my daughter because of: 1) the obvious trolling that occurs to discourage students; 2) the innocent misinformation that's spouted; 3) the addictive qualities of SDN; 4) the humor that I get to enjoy; and 5) the occasional flame war.

By the way, Megboo, I was pulling for you to get into SIU and I thought that going there was the obvious choice for you. You had no need to explain your choice to anyone.
 
Obnoxious Dad said:
I cruise SDN rather than my daughter because of: 1) the obvious trolling that occurs to discourage students; 2) the innocent misinformation that's spouted; 3) the addictive qualities of SDN; 4) the humor that I get to enjoy; and 5) the occasional flame war.
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#3-5 make it the most entertaining, that's for sure!
 
Wow OD, I really hope you're not a lawyer because your arguments fail hard. OBVIOUSLY if you compare one programs lowest acceptances, and anothers highest, it's going to be flip flopped. That just goes unsaid, but the fact that you have to compare in that way to see the results you want actually proves my point.

One factor that no one wants to mention is pure nepotism. If you look at the numbers at mdapplicants.com and see some of the low outliers who were accepted, you have to wonder how some people got in and others didn't. You will never be able to document "pull". All it takes is a phone call, a wink and a nod.
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This is completly inane and irrelevant and gets swallowed whole by my argument I made earlier. No matter what non-numerical factors contribute to someone getting accepted, they will be equal between DO and MD applicants. Wether this is the "pull" you're talking about, or interviews, PS, LOR's and ECs.
 
FinchHead said:
Wow OD, I really hope you're not a lawyer because your arguments fail hard. OBVIOUSLY if you compare one programs lowest acceptances, and anothers highest, it's going to be flip flopped. That just goes unsaid, but the fact that you have to compare in that way to see the results you want actually proves my point.



This is completly inane and irrelevant and gets swallowed whole by my argument I made earlier. No matter what non-numerical factors contribute to someone getting accepted, they will be equal between DO and MD applicants. Wether this is the "pull" you're talking about, or interviews, PS, LOR's and ECs.
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I don't want to be mean but you just seem to be incapable of understanding what I'm trying to say. My point all along has been that there are some people who attend DO schools who are statistically (MCAT & GPA) superior to some people who attend MD schools. I made it very clear that the statistical averages at MD programs are generally higher. These two factoids are not mutually exclusive.

There are some MD programs that simply do not care what your stats are if you are from out of state. If you are a Michigan resident and have a 4.0 from MIT in physics and a 42 on the MCAT you will get turned down at Mercer, Arizona, Massachusetts, SIU and Florida State because you are OOS. It's the LAW.

Florida is about to open two new MD schools and Pennsylvania will open a new MD school in Scranton. Do you think they'll accept people from Wyoming with open arms? I don't.

You can cry all you want but subjectivity, in-state bias and a host of other factors make med school admissions an irrational crap shoot.

At this point I should apologize for the title. I will never take the MCAT myself. I was a bit miffed at the "I really hope you're not a lawyer" crack.
 
Why does someone always try to make a joke of someone doing poorly on the MCAT when they mistype something, don't fix said typo or don't understand what someone is saying?
 
megboo said:
Not really, because the DO schools also take students below their averages. It's really hard to use SIU as an example because the applicant pool is much smaller than say CCOM. SIU is a state school, and they have a preference for southern Illinoisans. They only give out 300-400 secondaries and accepted 150 total last year. They are also a rarity in that they do look past GPA and/or MCAT for interesting candidates as an MD school.

Edit: Obnoxious Dad beat me to this.
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Hey megboo, congrats on SIU! :clap: I was hoping you got in there. Going back to Carbondale are we(1st year at least)?😀

Did you get the official acceptance? That whole AWPA thing sucks huh?

I am very happy for you.🙂
 
Obnoxious Dad said:
I don't want to be mean but you just seem to be incapable of understanding what I'm trying to say. My point all along has been that there are some people who attend DO schools who are statistically (MCAT & GPA) superior to some people who attend MD schools. I made it very clear that the statistical averages at MD programs are generally higher. These two factoids are not mutually exclusive.

There are some MD programs that simply do not care what your stats are if you are from out of state. If you are a Michigan resident and have a 4.0 from MIT in physics and a 42 on the MCAT you will get turned down at Mercer, Arizona, Massachusetts, SIU and Florida State because you are OOS. It's the LAW.

Florida is about to open two new MD schools and Pennsylvania will open a new MD school in Scranton. Do you think they'll accept people from Wyoming with open arms? I don't.
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In-State bias another thing that is equal between DO and MD schools. Do you not think there are DO schools that have a 98% in-state acceptnace rates? Do not apply to them, it's pretty simple.

I understood your point that some DO people are statistically superior to some MD applicants, and I thouroughly blew that argument away already. Ill restate the argument for your convienance: if you compare the high end applicants for one program and the low ends for another, you will get the results you want but they will be misleading.
Here's a thread on the pre-allo forum that substantiates (sort of) my point about state residency and allopathic admissions.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=451407

Pack up the moving van and start applying!🙂
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Yeah, living in certain states helps your chance of admission, wether DO or MD. I'm not arguing against this, mostly because it's completly irrelevant to what we were talking about.

Also, don't worry about hurting my feelings. Not gonna happen 👍
 
God ... I don't understand why people can't just leave these things alone. Like someone said earlier 'it seemed fair.' The article discussed some stereotypes of the degree, how it compares to an MD, some of the OPINIONS that people have about the current state of the allopathic, MD degree, and finally stated the fact that as the DO schools continue to receive more applications; the average stats of matriculating students begin to close in on those of MD. I don't get why people can't accept a review saying something positive about a DO degree. People feel the need to crawl out of whatever sdn cave they have been living in and state why they feel a DO is inferior to an MD for whatever reason. You can say the article was biased, or written by someone in AMSA to raise DO awareness or whatever, but the fact is that it wasn't written by someone 100% DO or someone 100% anti-DO, meaning that it was probably much more fair than the discussion happening right now.

Also, FinchHead ... I am interested to know your current status in the medical community. Pre-med, Med student, attending ... etc etc?? (I'm not trying to be offensive or anything like that, just trying to get a better grasp on where your opinions are coming from).

Finally, to anyone just casually reading this thread: Please don't worry about premed opinion on ugrad criteria (gpa/mcat) proving success or failure as a future doctor. Premeds are the least informed, but most opinionated people about a community we frankly no NOTHING about. Ask any med student, resident, or attending ... premeds have a horribly warped view.
 
JaggerPlate, please read the conversation more carefully if you are going to offer an opinion. For instance, this quote:

FinchHead said:
I don't see why pointing out that [DO Schools are] easier to get into is a "slam". Not every person who would be a good doctor has planned on going into medicine since they started college, and thus did not get a competitive enough GPA.
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I personally plan on applying to both DO and MD schools. My only point the entire thread was that it is easier to get into DO schools then MD schools, and that's not a bad thing.

Finally, to anyone just casually reading this thread: Please don't worry about premed opinion on ugrad criteria (gpa/mcat) proving success or failure as a future doctor.
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No one in the entire thread has commented on wether MCAT and GPA translate to being a good doctor, except to say that there is probably not a correlation...
 
.
 
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Read the friggin thread dude. Thats why we are agruging at all. Because someone disagreed with that part of the article.
 
FinchHead said:
JaggerPlate, please read the conversation more carefully if you are going to offer an opinion. For instance, this quote:

I personally plan on applying to both DO and MD schools. My only point the entire thread was that it is easier to get into DO schools then MD schools, and that's not a bad thing.

No one in the entire thread has commented on wether MCAT and GPA translate to being a good doctor, except to say that there is probably not a correlation...
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FinchHead, as far as offering your opinion on my ability to comment and read the conversation ... your remarks demonstrate how naive you are to SDN. The best piece of advice one can take on SDN is to always read between the lines. You never have any idea as to who is posting, and more importantly; what their intentions actually are. As I stated before, people who have nothing to do with pre-osteopathic students, or those who you rarely see comment on SDN, who comment on anything that has to do with bashing the DO ... aren't being fair and have an alternative agenda.

I am also not surprised to find out you are a premed (take that as you wish).

Finally, the gpa/mcat quip was in regard to how most premeds base success in medicine on these numbers. Since DO schools usually have lower average numbers (however, check out one such as Western with a 3.6/28), they are seen as less desired/all around not as 'good' as MD schools. Ergo, DO is inferior to MD.

I don't want to start a war with you. As I said, just try to remember that these are internet forums, so read between the lines. Try not to be as snarky either ... might stay around here longer.
 
You came into the thread and represented what I was saying as calling DO's inferior to MD's. Thats not my view at all, and it could have been easily understood if you read the thread, so I had to assume you didn't really read it.

Finally, the gpa/mcat quip was in regard to how most premeds base success in medicine on these numbers. Since DO schools usually have lower average numbers (however, check out one such as Western with a 3.6/28), they are seen as less desired/all around not as 'good' as MD schools. Ergo, DO is inferior to MD.
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Hmm... I don't really care what "most premeds" think, I've explicitly stated I did not feel that way. It's not fair to make a sterotypes about what pre-meds believe, then lump me in with it so your statement makes sense.

As I stated before, people who have nothing to do with pre-osteopathic students, or those who you rarely see comment on SDN, who comment on anything that has to do with bashing the DO
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Who are you talking about?
 
blah blah blah
 
FinchHead said:
You came into the thread and represented what I was saying as calling DO's inferior to MD's. Thats not my view at all, and it could have been easily understood if you read the thread, so I had to assume you didn't really read it.

Hmm... I don't really care what "most premeds" think, I've explicitly stated I did not feel that way. It's not fair to make a sterotypes about what pre-meds believe, then lump me in with it so your statement makes sense.

Who are you talking about?
Click to expand...

Then I agree with you, and will not continue to bicker over small, insignificant, issues.
 
Joel D. Howell Named First Victor Vaughan Professor of the History of Medicine

Joel D. Howell, M.D., Ph.D., was installed on November 26, 2001, as the first Victor Vaughan Professor of the History of Medicine. Howell, a professor in the Department of Internal Medicine in the Medical School and co-director of the U-M Robert Wood Johnson Clinical Scholars Program, also serves as professor of health management and policy in the School of Public Health and as professor of history in the College of Literature, Science and the Arts, as well as teaching in the Law School.

Howell is an active clinician at the U-M, where he has been on the faculty since 1984. In 1988, he was the first person whose research is primarily history-focused to be elected to the prestigious American Society of Clinical Investigation. He is the founding director of the U-M Program in Society and Medicine and was recently named to the U-M Society of Fellows. Widely respected for his intellectual leadership, Howell is frequently asked to speak and consult at national and international venues, has written extensively on medical technology and the history and future of human experimentation, and has held numerous lectureships in the U.S. and abroad.
 
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