A Falling Profession

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There is a vast body of literature on the "deprofessionalization" of medicine in the field of medical sociology for those who are interested. Its good to see these issues addressed outside of academia and in something as widely read as the NY Times though. Thanks for the link.
 
I think that the drop in status of the profession has lead to a better class of future physicians. Students realize it's not worth it to go to medical school just to make a decent salary and have a little prestige - there are much better roads for bigger helpings of each.

It doesn't help that volunteers can probably wear white coats now.
 
That article makes it sound like starting Facebook.com's and making a million bucks a year in private equity is easy.
 
Pinkertinkle said:
That article makes it sound like starting Facebook.com's and making a million bucks a year in private equity is easy.
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I think the comparison is a bit of a stretch too. Not everybody is going to be Facebook and Youtube rich.

However, comparing to Investment Banking and tech startups is pretty apt I think, for exactly the reasons in the article. Kids today are trained to think they're the greatest thing since sliced bread. Medicine and Law is a humbling freaking experience. (In medicine at least) You pretty soon figure out "Holy crap, I don't know ANYTHING".

Investment banking you can take basic skills you learned in college, use the social skills you've developed your entire life and do well. Tech start up is similar. It's not so much people making huge breakthroughs, it's people using technology that's already there, but in a clever way.

So sure, we call can't go out and found a billion dollar website, but I mean, I know plenty of lower profile stories where three dudes got together and wrote some program that I can't even understand, and some major tech firm but them out and they all split several millions and got hired on as consultants with big paychecks. And it's not like they had to pay quarter of a million in tuition to learn their skills. They sharpened their skills in college or on the job, and worked on the project part time (will holding down a well paying tech job with manageable hours).
 
PeepshowJohnny said:
I think the comparison is a bit of a stretch too. Not everybody is going to be Facebook and Youtube rich.

However, comparing to Investment Banking and tech startups is pretty apt I think, for exactly the reasons in the article. Kids today are trained to think they're the greatest thing since sliced bread. Medicine and Law is a humbling freaking experience. (In medicine at least) You pretty soon figure out "Holy crap, I don't know ANYTHING".

Investment banking you can take basic skills you learned in college, use the social skills you've developed your entire life and do well. Tech start up is similar. It's not so much people making huge breakthroughs, it's people using technology that's already there, but in a clever way.

So sure, we call can't go out and found a billion dollar website, but I mean, I know plenty of lower profile stories where three dudes got together and wrote some program that I can't even understand, and some major tech firm but them out and they all split several millions and got hired on as consultants with big paychecks. And it's not like they had to pay quarter of a million in tuition to learn their skills. They sharpened their skills in college or on the job, and worked on the project part time (will holding down a well paying tech job with manageable hours).
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I was in IT and my personal experience has been that for every 'lower profile' success stories, there are tons of lower profile non-success stories. I knew kids from my programming classes in college, co-workers from my software company, and acquaintances who all have had a go at various start-ups which went no where. It is NOT easy to make a million bucks. You have to have a vision, a lot of ambition, connections and most importantly, a lot of luck on your side.

The ceiling is higher in business but so is the floor. For law and medicine, you don't make as much, but you also have more assurance of making a decent income than jumping into the market place and trying to push your ideas. So I'm not sure why the NYTimes decided to write about this since the uneducated-yet-ultimately-successful-businessmen has been around for long time.

I will say that they made a good point about how the 'traditional pillars of professionalism' is not what it was once was. But then again, society has seen lessening of traditional respect for authority. Teachers see it. Police see it. Even politicians were not once as derided as they are now. Doctors and lawyers are just one more 'institution' which is offered up for public ridicule.
 
NonTradMed said:
I was in IT and my personal experience has been that for every 'lower profile' success stories, there are tons of lower profile non-success stories. I knew kids from my programming classes in college, co-workers from my software company, and acquaintances who all have had a go at various start-ups which went no where. It is NOT easy to make a million bucks. You have to have a vision, a lot of ambition, connections and most importantly, a lot of luck on your side.
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Oh, by no means do I want to suggest even the lower key success stories are common or easy. However, they are more common and easy than the blockbuster Facebook style success, and common enough that I think it's a nicel dangling apple in our society that tells people "Hey, you're smart enough to be a mllionaire by the time you're 30"
 
When the f*** will the common public stop putting a target on our backs.

If they want their Lisinopril and Advair 20 years from now, best bet they leave us alone.
 
PeepshowJohnny said:
...So sure, we call can't go out and found a billion dollar website, but I mean, I know plenty of lower profile stories where three dudes got together and wrote some program that I can't even understand, and some major tech firm but them out and they all split several millions and got hired on as consultants with big paychecks. And it's not like they had to pay quarter of a million in tuition to learn their skills...
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I read statements like this on SDN, and it always reminds me of the speech in "Office Space" where they're talking about the guy who invented the Pet Rock. It's a mix of escapism, selection bias, and wishful thinking. Everyone likes stories of those who can strike it rich and never work again. And only the success stories make the evening news, not the thousands of failures out there. I'm positive I-Banking has it's own pitfalls and it's own set of knowledge and skills that we don't see as outsiders. We might think it's easy to click "sell" for Wachovia, but do we know what to sell, or when? Idealizing other fields as easy is silly - if it was as money making and easy as others make it to be, then everyone would be doing it.

Most versions of success require not only lots of effort, but lots of effort sustained over a lifetime. That's why most people don't achieve those types of success.

NonTradMed said:
I was in IT and my personal experience has been that for every 'lower profile' success stories, there are tons of lower profile non-success stories. I knew kids from my programming classes in college, co-workers from my software company, and acquaintances who all have had a go at various start-ups which went no where. It is NOT easy to make a million bucks. You have to have a vision, a lot of ambition, connections and most importantly, a lot of luck on your side...
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QFT.

NonTradMed said:
...So I'm not sure why the NYTimes decided to write about this since the uneducated-yet-ultimately-successful-businessmen has been around for long time...
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Answer: Slow news day.
 
CigarTragic said:
When the f*** will the common public stop putting a target on our backs.
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It's not the common public. With an approaching election where "overpaid" doctors are going to be demonized as a reason for skyrocketing healthcare costs, it's only natural to expect tons of anti-doctor sentiment in the media. Expect a lot more of this -- lumping doctors with lawyers and being portrayed as a dissatisfied bunch of ingrates (as I think is some of the takehome message of that article).
 
I find it scary that the article demonizes doctors and lawyers, as l2d mentioned, and laughs off that bankers make money. Ha ha ha the CEO of GS made a $54 million bonus. That would pay the median income ($48,201) for 1,100 families ha ha ha.

There is actually a website setup with ideas on "how to blow your bonus" for the average run-of-the-mill investment banker. Listed last year (2005) are Ducati motorcycles ($64,000). That is 130% of the median American income; as a bonus.

In no way am I arguing people should not make a lot of money for what they do. Doing so removes any incentive for success. What I am saying, when demonizing professions for making money include them all.
 
Pinkertinkle said:
That article makes it sound like starting Facebook.com's and making a million bucks a year in private equity is easy.
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Yeah, I love it when investment banking is constantly being brought up as if every Joe Schmoe can get hired into one of the big player firms starting at 150k.

I have cousins in IB and private equity, and a good buddy doing M&A for a smaller regional firm in Detroit. So, I know a little about that "field".

First, you need to be smart, but also extremely hard working. You'll need to be more aggressive than most people in medical school are, by nature. Pedigree does matter. So, a reputable undergrad is important. Internships at large NY firms are very competitive, but will help land an associates-level job. Then, plan on working 80 hrs/week for several years as you prove yourself. Next, go get an MBA from a reputable institution (my cousin went full time), because to move up you'll need it.

Oh, and if you can't work under enormous pressure, forget it. You better be able to present to high level dudes making millions/year. And, you'll need to be convincing, so no sheep need apply.

I'll admit, there's not one single path to these jobs. Finance is even more diverse than medicine in many ways. For example, you could work in trading, then get a CFA. But, you better be very good, smart, aggressive, and presentable if you want to manage private equity. These people are NOT your average finance grad.

My point is that anyone that gets into medical school (pretty competitive) will more or less eventually make a decent living. But, it's only a very, very select group of people that make the kind of numbers often refered to in such articles. While there are a few regional players, and "local" private equity firms, the majority of the jobs are in NYC. So, if city life isn't for you, then it excludes you from a large segment of the higher end jobs. That's simply where much of the action is.

Granted, it's not fair to compare your "average" finance grad to the average medical student. No comparison. But, these articles make it sound like all you need is a finance degree, an MBA, and you'll be off making $150 + right out of school, with the potential to make "millions". This is very far from reality. So, don't be overly persuaded that you've made a "suckers" choice by going into medicine.
 
NonTradMed said:
I was in IT and my personal experience has been that for every 'lower profile' success stories, there are tons of lower profile non-success stories. I knew kids from my programming classes in college, co-workers from my software company, and acquaintances who all have had a go at various start-ups which went no where. It is NOT easy to make a million bucks. You have to have a vision, a lot of ambition, connections and most importantly, a lot of luck on your side.

The ceiling is higher in business but so is the floor. For law and medicine, you don't make as much, but you also have more assurance of making a decent income than jumping into the market place and trying to push your ideas. So I'm not sure why the NYTimes decided to write about this since the uneducated-yet-ultimately-successful-businessmen has been around for long time.

I will say that they made a good point about how the 'traditional pillars of professionalism' is not what it was once was. But then again, society has seen lessening of traditional respect for authority. Teachers see it. Police see it. Even politicians were not once as derided as they are now. Doctors and lawyers are just one more 'institution' which is offered up for public ridicule.
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I agree with this post 100%.
 
cfdavid said:
But, these articles make it sound like all you need is a finance degree, an MBA, and you'll be off making $150 + right out of school, with the potential to make "millions". This is very far from reality. So, don't be overly persuaded that you've made a "suckers" choice by going into medicine.
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I seen alot of well educated adults (even my own father) fall for this idea that all it takes is a generic finance degree and perhaps an MBA and you're all set for the big six figure payoffs. They never realize that sending their kid to the local public university and having him screw around with a 3.4 in finance will not allow him to enter the rarefied ranks of six figure investment bankers. I've seen the end result where these kids end up in normal jobs paying $60k. A bit of a disappointment perhaps to their parents.

Law2Doc said:
It's not the common public. With an approaching election where "overpaid" doctors are going to be demonized as a reason for skyrocketing healthcare costs, it's only natural to expect tons of anti-doctor sentiment in the media. Expect a lot more of this -- lumping doctors with lawyers and being portrayed as a dissatisfied bunch of ingrates (as I think is some of the takehome message of that article).
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I don't think the article was demonizing lawyers and doctors so much as saying they are not getting the respect due to those professions as in times gone past. But, as I stated earlier, society has been generally shifting towards a more relaxed attitude towards all authority figure. Teachers, cops, etc all see this. Doctors are not immune. Slow news day, heh.
 
Law2Doc said:
With an approaching election where "overpaid" doctors are going to be demonized as a reason for skyrocketing healthcare costs, it's only natural to expect tons of anti-doctor sentiment in the media.
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I heard the anti-doctor sentiment worries a lot more on SDN than I ever hear anti-doctor sentiment from the media itself. I haven't heard any of the candidates position doctors as a major reason for health care costs.

Ironically, what I see as far and away the most anti-physician stance by far was taken by Schwarzenegger in California, tagging a 2% tax on doctors specifically. I can't think of another example of when a job title was specifically taxed extra by the government.

Were physicians demonized as a reason for skyrocketing healthcare by Schwarzenegger in order to do this? No. Was there big discussion and concern over it? No. People didn't care enough about doctors one way or the other to make it an issue.

I don't see any reason to expect politicians to bother demonizing doctors to push their reform. They don't need to. Doctors can take big hits and it will be met with apathy by the public and media. Don't expect outrage, expect indifference.
 
NonTradMed said:
I don't think the article was demonizing lawyers and doctors so much as saying they are not getting the respect due to those professions as in times gone past.
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I think some of the loss of "respect" is going to continue. The idea of slaving away long hours to work as a physician was accepted by doctors in the past. Not any longer. Almost everyone (including me) going in to medicine wants some semblance of a nice life outside of the white coat. Pagers 24/7? No thanks. House calls? No way.

The job has changed to the point that doctors spend less time working as doctors. That reduced the respect level from the public because it's hard to respect someone who treats you as a number and rushes you through the process. But we can't refuse to live the monk's life and still expect to be treated reverentially.

If you want public respect, try a uniform. That's en vogue now. Ten years from now? Who knows. But I wouldn't put my money on doctor. The field of medicine now is right about where the field of law was in the early 80's. And I don't see the insurance companies, the hospitals, the public or the doctors themselves willing to make any huge sacrifices to turn that around.
 
What do you guys hear when you tell someone you're in medical school or premedical or anything like that?

"Wow, I bet that's hard" or "Jeeze, that's a lot of work"

Medicine, from the day you start training is a lot of long, mentally taxing days and nights.

Now, do Investment Bankers, Tech/Web 2.0 start ups work hard? Of course they do. And as others have pointed out, their "lows" are a hell of a low lower than ours.

However, the average public doesn't associate these paths with the hard work they do with medicine and law. I think that's what this article is implying. Not that those fields are easier, but to college kids they can compare "Hmm, go into huge debt, get my ass chewed out by old doctors for minor mistakes, work 80 hours a week and MAYBE make 300,000" or "Take a business degree, work for some big firm and pull in millions!"

We all know that the second just doesn't happen. You need a pedigree, connections, charm, intelligence, skill etc. But the public doesn't associate that path with the hard work they do with medicine and law.

This article isn't saying "Hey kids, medicine and law are hard, do these easy thing that makes you more money!" It's saying "The perception is medicine and law are harder and make less money than these other fields". That perception may not be accurate, but it still exists
 
notdeadyet said:
I haven't heard any of the candidates position doctors as a major reason for health care costs.
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They don't do it that way. They take pork from health insurers and pharmaceutical companies, while talking vaguely about skyrocketing costs and the need for reform. If they are going to do healthcare reform and not screw over these major backers who do you think gets the business end?
 
PeepshowJohnny said:
Not that those fields are easier, but to college kids they can compare "Hmm, go into huge debt, get my ass chewed out by old doctors for minor mistakes, work 80 hours a week and MAYBE make 300,000" or "Take a business degree, work for some big firm and pull in millions!"

We all know that the second just doesn't happen. You need a pedigree, connections, charm, intelligence, skill etc. But the public doesn't associate that path with the hard work they do with medicine and law.

This article isn't saying "Hey kids, medicine and law are hard, do these easy thing that makes you more money!" It's saying "The perception is medicine and law are harder and make less money than these other fields". That perception may not be accurate, but it still exists
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The big differenc is that in medicine and law, you borrow money and stay out of the workforce for a while. In banking you start in the workforce, maybe go back to school on the employers dime, and so you have a decade of income while your MD pals have a decade of debt. Sure it's hard work, but it's paid (often quite decently paid) hard work. That's a HUGE difference. And it legitimizes the perception. Time value of money is everything. Getting a dollar today is worth a LOT more than a dollar a decade from now.
 
Law2Doc said:
The big differenc is that in medicine and law, you borrow money and stay out of the workforce for a while. In banking you start in the workforce, maybe go back to school on the employers dime, and so you have a decade of income while your MD pals have a decade of debt. Sure it's hard work, but it's paid (often quite decently paid) hard work. That's a HUGE difference. And it legitimizes the perception. Time value of money is everything. Getting a dollar today is worth a LOT more than a dollar a decade from now.
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That is my biggest qualm with the respective career paths. By earning an income for 2+ years and starting a retirement non-MD/JD postgraduate students gain the benefit of accrued interest while they're in school. Couple that with most PhD programs having tuition remission and , albeit minuscule, stipends or the company paying for the management degree getting a traditional professional degree is soon to become fiscal suicide. I would be interested in seeing the curves projected out between tuition increasing at a faster rate than income to see where the break point is where it no longer makes fiscal sense in any sense of the word to go to law or medical school. Yes, most medical students have altruistic motives at heart, but the reality of the situation is that the delayed gratification of having a family and feeling financially independent and secure is also a motive for seeking more prestigious and higher paying specialties. At some point in the near future that concept will be squeezed out.
 
soeagerun2or said:
I would be interested in seeing the curves projected out between tuition increasing at a faster rate than income to see where the break point is where it no longer makes fiscal sense in any sense of the word to go to law or medical school. Yes, most medical students have altruistic motives at heart,
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Well, a lot of nontrads who are career changers coming from high pay industries are going into medicine even though it makes no financial sense. And a lot of folks coming from undergrad don't have a fantastic concept of what is a decent wage. So between these two groups you will always have an adequate number of altruistically motivated folks applying to med school regardless of the break point. And about half of all applicants don't get into med school, and many end up paying much higher tuitions at offshore schools. Additionally, doctors in foreign countries go into medicine for a much lower standard of living (even if you factor in free educational costs). So I'd say that the break point is fairly liberal, and a lot of room for tuition to continue to rise before there is a dent in applications.

The break point for law is going to be very different because there is no residency period and a year's less tuition.
 
Law2Doc said:
So I'd say that the break point is fairly liberal, and a lot of room for tuition to continue to rise before there is a dent in applications.
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I agree, big time. Most people I've met don't consider cost of tuition to be relevant until they get accepted. Even if interest rates take off (with elevated tuition rates), I doubt it will hurt apps much. There are plenty of lenders willing to give cash to med students. Compared to the other people asking for money, it's a no-brainer.

Law2Doc said:
The break point for law is going to be very different because there is no residency period and a year's less tuition.
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Lawyers have higher variable costs - like scotch. 🙂
 
Has anyone done research into the causes of rising tuition, both on the professional school and undergraduate level? It's something I've been meaning to look into for a while but haven't got around to doing my investigative work. Anyone have some insight or references?
 
Premeds do internships and slave away in research labs. While I never went to b-school, I can't imagine it being anywhere close to med school in terms of work. Residents work 80hrs/wk for several years. As far as pressure, life or death is on the line. Oh and residents get paid less per year than the total of year end bonuses of people on wall street while saddled with 100k+ debt.
The opportunity of cost of choosing to be a physician is not to be underestimated.


cfdavid said:
First, you need to be smart, but also extremely hard working. You'll need to be more aggressive than most people in medical school are, by nature. Pedigree does matter. So, a reputable undergrad is important. Internships at large NY firms are very competitive, but will help land an associates-level job. Then, plan on working 80 hrs/week for several years as you prove yourself. Next, go get an MBA from a reputable institution (my cousin went full time), because to move up you'll need it.

Oh, and if you can't work under enormous pressure, forget it. You better be able to present to high level dudes making millions/year. And, you'll need to be convincing, so no sheep need apply.

So, don't be overly persuaded that you've made a "suckers" choice by going into medicine.
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I also read this article over the weekend and thought about it a fair amount. To me, though, the part of the story that made me really pause was not the smaller salaries than big-shot finance types or the observation that medicine as a profession is losing status (both of which we all know), but rather the writer's analysis as to the cause of this:

Especially among young people, professional status is now inextricably linked to ideas of flexibility and creativity, concepts alien to seemingly everyone but art students even a generation ago. ... Unquestionably, many doctors and lawyers still find the higher calling of their profession — helping people — as well as the prestige and money, worth the hard work. And the stars in either field are still that: commanding the handsome compensation and social cachet. But to others, the daily trudge serves as a constant reminder that the entrepreneur’s autonomy simply can’t be found in law or medicine.​

What do you all think of this? Do you think it's true that there is no place for "flexibility and creativity ... the entrepreneur's autonomy" in medicine? If there is a place, where is it??
 
Honestly, we are giving these idiots writing these articles (see also: U.S. News & World Report rating Physician as an "overrated career") waaay too much credit. As though their opinions even matter, let alone that their opinions should matter TO US. Who cares what THEY think.

Forget about all of it, and don't worry. Point is we all came to med school and the only thing left for us to do is get M.D. next to our names. Now go study. 😀
 
CigarTragic said:
Honestly, we are giving these idiots writing these articles (see also: U.S. News & World Report rating Physician as an "overrated career") waaay too much credit. As though their opinions even matter, let alone that their opinions should matter TO US. Who cares what THEY think.

Forget about all of it, and don't worry. Point is we all came to med school and the only thing left for us to do is get M.D. next to our names. Now go study. 😀
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:laugh:

I'm clearly a premed, but the NY Times's author's opinion here is representative of the point of view I've gotten from many a resident and attending.

But yeah, point well taken nonetheless; too much credit indeed. 👍
 
yknow.. when I was a premed, I would hate it whenever a 3rd or 4th year medical student (or even a resident) would try and dissuade me from medicine. I would almost wish they could tell me more of the "good" and less of the "bad". I vowed never to be like them.

Now after going through the process, it's hard for me to talk to a premed and not include the "bad" aspects of the field.... perhaps I have become too jaded. Waiting for the light at the end of the tunnel (perhaps when intern year ends).
 
peduncle said:
yknow.. when I was a premed, I would hate it whenever a 3rd or 4th year medical student (or even a resident) would try and dissuade me from medicine. I would almost wish they could tell me more of the "good" and less of the "bad". I vowed never to be like them.

Now after going through the process, it's hard for me to talk to a premed and not include the "bad" aspects of the field.... perhaps I have become too jaded. Waiting for the light at the end of the tunnel (perhaps when intern year ends).
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I agree with PeepShow Jon. I have several friends in Investment Banking who started two years ago, I'd say 75% are still there at the moment. For every 1 who makes it big in investment banking, hedge funds, or small tech startups there are 9 others with ideas/models that didn't pan out.
In medicine the sky is a lower, but its difficult floor is actually above sea level. One thing I didn't like about the article is that it assumed everyone who completed medical school or law school planed to practice those professions.
I data shows that a higher percentage of medical school graduates are practicing medicine, than law school grads, but in the future I expect these numbers to change towards more graduates using there knowledge in the business world.
You guys agree?
 
CigarTragic said:
Honestly, we are giving these idiots writing these articles (see also: U.S. News & World Report rating Physician as an "overrated career") waaay too much credit. As though their opinions even matter, let alone that their opinions should matter TO US. Who cares what THEY think.

Forget about all of it, and don't worry. Point is we all came to med school and the only thing left for us to do is get M.D. next to our names. Now go study. 😀
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Yes "60 minutes " (one of few shows that I watch) also had a segment on how creativity and flexibility is overtaking professionalism..
And once again as Barbara Fadem said.. I repeat for the 900th time and I can't impress this enough "You dont go in the medical field for money but if you happen to make some along the way its ok.."
 
I agree with one of the post-ers above that more and more medical graduates may take their degree to the business sector. I already know a handful of students who have gone into Healthcare consulting right after medical school. Some have even joined pharmaceutical companies. I don't think they are selling out and, in fact, I find it necessary that doctors grab a hold of the health-financial sector.

Did you know that in some countries, one is not allowed to become the CEO of a hospital unless he/she hold an MD degree (I was told this info on the interview trail). Yet in America, the CEOs of hospitals are all accountants. I wouldn't be surprised if Managed Care is packed with non-medical accountants. It's a shame that doctors' practices are sometimes dictated by those that have only gotten acquainted with the financial side of medicine and have not experience healthcare directly.

I think there should be a push for more medical grads (or even doctors who just don't want to practice anymore) to enter these types of positions.
 
rosiemarie said:
I also read this article over the weekend and thought about it a fair amount. To me, though, the part of the story that made me really pause was not the smaller salaries than big-shot finance types or the observation that medicine as a profession is losing status (both of which we all know), but rather the writer's analysis as to the cause of this:

Especially among young people, professional status is now inextricably linked to ideas of flexibility and creativity, concepts alien to seemingly everyone but art students even a generation ago. ... Unquestionably, many doctors and lawyers still find the higher calling of their profession — helping people — as well as the prestige and money, worth the hard work. And the stars in either field are still that: commanding the handsome compensation and social cachet. But to others, the daily trudge serves as a constant reminder that the entrepreneur’s autonomy simply can’t be found in law or medicine.​

What do you all think of this? Do you think it's true that there is no place for "flexibility and creativity ... the entrepreneur's autonomy" in medicine? If there is a place, where is it??
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Its very difficult to be "your own boss" anymore. Time constraints are too great.. The government has taken that away from you as a professional. In the future in my opinion(and i see it happening now) doctors will become employed by the hospitals just like nurses. When is the last time you saw a solo practitioner? seriously? doesnt happen anymore.. you are usually working for the man..... unless you are a plastic surgeon.. who doesnt have to take insurance... Dentists have it far better than physicians nowadays...
 
mmag said:
Premeds do internships and slave away in research labs. While I never went to b-school, I can't imagine it being anywhere close to med school in terms of work. Residents work 80hrs/wk for several years. As far as pressure, life or death is on the line. Oh and residents get paid less per year than the total of year end bonuses of people on wall street while saddled with 100k+ debt.
The opportunity of cost of choosing to be a physician is not to be underestimated.
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80+ hours is absolutely not uncommon for junior associates working for IB's. Many get burned out and question what they're doing with their early years, much like residents sometimes do.
It's true, though, that they make more than residents.

I agree that there is substantial opportunity cost in going into medicine. The benefit to traditional aged med students, however, is that those years would not be anywhere close to their prime earning years (unless ofcourse they are one of the very few dot.comers or IB studs (again, the minority)) if they were out in the world working. So, it's not as bad as one might think.

I just don't think it's productive for med students to compare "opportunity" cost to the pretty darn select few business grads making bank during their mid-to-late twenties. It's just not the norm.
 
I read the Times article in the paper and question lumping law and med together.

I'm a 4th-year, but in my prior life I was an attorney and worked as a litigation associate in a large law firm. Law and med are such completely different professions with completely different educational paths. There are no "bad" med schools in the US, but plenty of cut-rate law schools with very easy admission standards. The pace of med school is much more demanding than law school, although the reading requirement (if actually followed) for law school increases after the first year. The range in salaries for new law school grads in huge, and even in good schools some will have to work very hard to find decent employment. As a junior associate in a big litigation firm, I worked extremely long hours (when preparing for litigation I sometimes would leave at 2 or 3 am and get back in the office at 6 am), but as a percentage of the profession few lawyers work in these firms. And believe me - the fact that the general population holds little respect for lawyers is not new 🙄. And big clients (e.g., DuPont) have been able to demand accountability and frugality practices from law firms such as auditing and flat rates for several decades.

The big difference I've encountered is that one-on-one people still generally trust, respect, and defer to doctors (and even noob med students!). While most people may respect the work that goes into getting a J.D. and practicing law (even if they know nothing about it), "trust" and "respect" is notsomuch.
 
Avant said:
I read the Times article in the paper and question lumping law and med together.

I'm a 4th-year, but in my prior life I was an attorney and worked as a litigation associate in a large law firm. Law and med are such completely different professions with completely different educational paths. There are no "bad" med schools in the US, but plenty of cut-rate law schools with very easy admission standards. The pace of med school is much more demanding than law school, although the reading requirement (if actually followed) for law school increases after the first year. The range in salaries for new law school grads in huge, and even in good schools some will have to work very hard to find decent employment. As a junior associate in a big litigation firm, I worked extremely long hours (when preparing for litigation I sometimes would leave at 2 or 3 am and get back in the office at 6 am), but as a percentage of the profession few lawyers work in these firms. And believe me - the fact that the general population holds little respect for lawyers is not new 🙄. And big clients (e.g., DuPont) have been able to demand accountability and frugality practices from law firms such as auditing and flat rates for several decades.

The big difference I've encountered is that one-on-one people still generally trust, respect, and defer to doctors (and even noob med students!). While most people may respect the work that goes into getting a J.D. and practicing law (even if they know nothing about it), "trust" and "respect" is notsomuch.
Click to expand...

It's all about the stigma. All you hear about lawyers on the news is "micorosft sues linux, linux sues microsoft, person sues both" and there is a constant barrage of frivolous lawsuits that always make the news. You never really hear the good things because its simply boring, nobody is interested, there is no proximity or relation.

Its a well accepted fact that doctors save lives and interact mostly positively with people, because that is the goal of their profession..you know, that "above all, do no harm stuff." Not everybody views this as such for law and its obvious why.
 
Avant said:
I read the Times article in the paper and question lumping law and med together.

I'm a 4th-year, but in my prior life I was an attorney and worked as a litigation associate in a large law firm. Law and med are such completely different professions with completely different educational paths. There are no "bad" med schools in the US, but plenty of cut-rate law schools with very easy admission standards. The pace of med school is much more demanding than law school, although the reading requirement (if actually followed) for law school increases after the first year. The range in salaries for new law school grads in huge, and even in good schools some will have to work very hard to find decent employment. As a junior associate in a big litigation firm, I worked extremely long hours (when preparing for litigation I sometimes would leave at 2 or 3 am and get back in the office at 6 am), but as a percentage of the profession few lawyers work in these firms. And believe me - the fact that the general population holds little respect for lawyers is not new 🙄. And big clients (e.g., DuPont) have been able to demand accountability and frugality practices from law firms such as auditing and flat rates for several decades.

The big difference I've encountered is that one-on-one people still generally trust, respect, and defer to doctors (and even noob med students!). While most people may respect the work that goes into getting a J.D. and practicing law (even if they know nothing about it), "trust" and "respect" is notsomuch.
Click to expand...

CliffNotes:

MED > LAW.

End of discussion.
 
Thewrongstuff said:
It's all about the stigma. All you hear about lawyers on the news is "micorosft sues linux, linux sues microsoft, person sues both" and there is a constant barrage of frivolous lawsuits that always make the news. You never really hear the good things because its simply boring, nobody is interested, there is no proximity or relation.
.
Click to expand...

Look up the person who argued Brown V board of education. thurgood marshall.

Lots of lawyers do good things.. Look at barry scheck and his innocence project. He is the worlds authority on DNA evidence. he gets people off who have been in jail for years and years and years and they have hope now. I am not a lawyer nor am i connected to anyone in law but some do good things.. They have the ability to effect change.
 
doctorsartorius said:
I am not sure about that article. I think that the worst problem facing the future of physicians is the glut of middle-easterns and south asians in the field. The vast majority of patients do not want to be treated by them and their sentiment is mirrored by most Americans who want them out of our country. If an annonymous poll were taken, more than 8 out of 10 Americans would support our government deporting them involuntarily. It is ridiculous that our profession is polluted with these people who cannot or will not integrate into our society and culture. I mean for God's sake when I took the Kaplan review there was a muslim woman, wrapped in a veil, praying on a rug in the building corridor. Our situation is not as bad as in the UK but it is slowly getting there, and this has got to stop.
Click to expand...

"Dey tukh arr jaaahbs!"
 
doctorsartorius said:
I am not sure about that article. I think that the worst problem facing the future of physicians is the glut of middle-easterns and south asians in the field. The vast majority of patients do not want to be treated by them and their sentiment is mirrored by most Americans who want them out of our country. If an annonymous poll were taken, more than 8 out of 10 Americans would support our government deporting them involuntarily. It is ridiculous that our profession is polluted with these people who cannot or will not integrate into our society and culture. I mean for God's sake when I took the Kaplan review there was a muslim woman, wrapped in a veil, praying on a rug in the building corridor. Our situation is not as bad as in the UK but it is slowly getting there, and this has got to stop.
Click to expand...


End yourself.

Kthnx.
 
doctorsartorius said:
I am not sure about that article. I think that the worst problem facing the future of physicians is the glut of middle-easterns and south asians in the field. The vast majority of patients do not want to be treated by them and their sentiment is mirrored by most Americans who want them out of our country. If an annonymous poll were taken, more than 8 out of 10 Americans would support our government deporting them involuntarily. It is ridiculous that our profession is polluted with these people who cannot or will not integrate into our society and culture. I mean for God's sake when I took the Kaplan review there was a muslim woman, wrapped in a veil, praying on a rug in the building corridor. Our situation is not as bad as in the UK but it is slowly getting there, and this has got to stop.
Click to expand...

WTF? 😕 😱 :scared: 👎

:barf:
:barf: :barf:
 
doctorsartorius said:
I am not sure about that article. I think that the worst problem facing the future of physicians is the glut of middle-easterns and south asians in the field. The vast majority of patients do not want to be treated by them and their sentiment is mirrored by most Americans who want them out of our country. If an annonymous poll were taken, more than 8 out of 10 Americans would support our government deporting them involuntarily. It is ridiculous that our profession is polluted with these people who cannot or will not integrate into our society and culture. I mean for God's sake when I took the Kaplan review there was a muslim woman, wrapped in a veil, praying on a rug in the building corridor. Our situation is not as bad as in the UK but it is slowly getting there, and this has got to stop.
Click to expand...

Well, you are free to have any opinion you wish. Even though I know some people with your sentiments I totally disagree and I am just wondering if you have proof of your allegation.

johankriek said:
Look up the person who argued Brown V board of education. thurgood marshall.

Lots of lawyers do good things.. Look at barry scheck and his innocence project. He is the worlds authority on DNA evidence. he gets people off who have been in jail for years and years and years and they have hope now. I am not a lawyer nor am i connected to anyone in law but some do good things.. They have the ability to effect change.
Click to expand...

I am not arguing you against your point, quite the contrary.
 
johankriek said:
Look up the person who argued Brown V board of education. thurgood marshall.

Lots of lawyers do good things.. Look at barry scheck and his innocence project. He is the worlds authority on DNA evidence. he gets people off who have been in jail for years and years and years and they have hope now. I am not a lawyer nor am i connected to anyone in law but some do good things.. They have the ability to effect change.
Click to expand...

Very true. Actually lots of people go to law school because they're idealistic and want to help people. Sounds familiar, huh?
 
peduncle said:
yknow.. when I was a premed, I would hate it whenever a 3rd or 4th year medical student (or even a resident) would try and dissuade me from medicine. I would almost wish they could tell me more of the "good" and less of the "bad". I vowed never to be like them.

Now after going through the process, it's hard for me to talk to a premed and not include the "bad" aspects of the field.... perhaps I have become too jaded. Waiting for the light at the end of the tunnel (perhaps when intern year ends).
Click to expand...

I definitely find myself doing the same thing, but maybe its a necessary counterpoint to idealism associated with this profession. I feel that as a pre med, whatever clinical experience you might have had does not give a sense of the responsibility that comes with work. (I feel like an old man for saying something like that)
 
re: doctorsartorius
it is scary, but i am wondering how many secret/underdog doctorsartorius' are there? 10% 40% 60%. prolly in real life, this person would be the first one who kisses up to his/her boss who is from India/or China🙁

sooo scary:scared::scared::scared:
 
i love sh** like this.
million dollar bonuses. to the top 1%.
it's not like everyone gets bonuses.

I'd rather earn a comfortable income, buy a nice house, buy a nice car, than have an e-penis size contest with a few bankers who took home a $2mil bonus.

the article makes it sound like $300000 is not enough.

I find it comforting that the majority of MBA's still only make 5 figures

slow and easy wins the race.
 
Dr McSteamy said:
i love sh** like this.
million dollar bonuses. to the top 1%.
it's not like everyone gets bonuses.

I'd rather earn a comfortable income, buy a nice house, buy a nice car, than have an e-penis size contest with a few bankers who took home a $2mil bonus.

the article makes it sound like $300000 is not enough.

I find it comforting that the majority of MBA's still only make 5 figures

slow and easy wins the race.
Click to expand...

I laugh, but ... I kind of do, too. :laugh:
 
Doctor Bagel said:
Very true. Actually lots of people go to law school because they're idealistic and want to help people. Sounds familiar, huh?
Click to expand...

Everyone wants to be a public defender for the underserved . . . until they depose their first pre-teen that was raped and it is their duty to their client to try and trip up the kid's story. I usually feel bad for lawyers - they all enjoy law school so much and end up hating their jobs. While I know a ton of "don't be a doctor!" MD's, I run into them with less frequency than their counterparts in law.
 
"What irritates me the most is the use of the term ‘provider,'" said Dr. Brian A. Meltzer, an internist in Pennington, N.J., who now practices pro bono on the side, but works full time for Johnson & Johnson's venture capital division. "We didn't go to provider school."

Interesting dichotomy.

In any case, some of the allusions in that article are laughable. Where are the burnout IT/Ibanking/you name it people making $60k/yr; apparently, everyone is flocking to make the next facebook clone and laugh all the way to the bank.

I graduated with two friends who worked 34902834092384x harder than me in college and are now bulge bracket firm analysts. The one who works at GS reguarly tells me she puts in >80hr/wk and up to 100hr/wk during crunch time. Yeah. I probably study 9-5 at the most.
 
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