Internship match question

parto123 · Feb 8, 2008

I have been informed by several current interns who are involved in their sites match process that the match system allows many sites to circumvent the match process to select minority candidates in order to achieve their desired diversity. Does anybody know if there is any truth to this, or how exactly it works?

Therapist4Chnge · Feb 8, 2008

parto123 said:
I have been informed by several current interns who are involved in their site's match process that the match system allows many sites to circumvent the match process to select minority candidates in order to achieve their desired diversity. Does anybody know if there is any truth to this, or how exactly it works?

Absolutely false. The ranking system requires each matching site to submit their ROL (rank order list), and the applicants submit their ROL, and then the 'match' is done by NMS, independent of any contact from the applicant or site during the selection process. Any attempt to circumvent this process would be a violation of the APPIC agreements the site and the applicant signed.

If a site preferred minority applicants, the only thing they could do is rank their minority candidates all highly, and then hope that those people rank them highly, etc. Of course, they could collude with the applicant and let them know they are #1, but that would violate the APPIC agreement.

parto123 · Feb 8, 2008

Therapist4Chnge said:
Absolutely false. The ranking system requires each matching site to submit their ROL (rank order list), and the applicants submit their ROL, and then the 'match' is done by NMS, independent of any contact from the applicant or site during the selection process. Any attempt to circumvent this process would be a violation of the APPIC agreements the site and the applicant signed.

If a site preferred minority applicants, the only thing they could do is rank their minority candidates all highly, and then hope that those people rank them highly, etc. Of course, they could collude with the applicant and let them know they are #1, but that would violate the APPIC agreement.

I would also assume this was false, but then i read the recent listerve message from Greg Keilin, which mentioned "There are a significant number of sites with very complex requirements that must submit their Rank Order Lists to NMS on paper."

So clearly there is some process going on outside the computerized system, which makes this information that ive heard from independent sources more credible.

Sanman · Feb 8, 2008

I read that too, but I haven't run into any sites that have a particular diversity requirement. I could imagine that sites with multiple tracks that allow applicants to rank more than one of them or certain specific issues that migh need to be met (i.e. requirement that a female come to the site to do sexual trauma), but I don't this that APPIC and NMS would allow them to do so if it were not an explicitly stated site requirement.

Therapist4Chnge · Feb 8, 2008

parto123 said:
I would also assume this was false, but then i read the recent listerve message from Greg Keilin, which mentioned "There are a significant number of sites with very complex requirements that must submit their Rank Order Lists to NMS on paper."

So clearly there is some process going on outside the computerized system, which makes this information that ive heard from independent sources more credible.

I read that, though at the time I didn't really think much of it. I guess it could be, "if we get any of these 10 it is fine, but if not, then we'll go to XYZ list". I think in the end though, there has to be a listing, as from what I understand the system needs to have a concrete listing, as any 'moving parts' would exponentially complicate the procedure as it would effect everyone else's submission too. It'd be a nightmare to figure out in regard to everything else, and from a programming perspective, you can't put in those kind of variables unless it was designed like that from the beginning.

Sanman said:
I read that too, but I haven't run into any sites that have a particular diversity requirement. I could imagine that sites with multiple tracks that allow applicants to rank more than one of them or certain specific issues that might need to be met (i.e. requirement that a female come to the site to do sexual trauma), but I don't this that APPIC and NMS would allow them to do so if it were not an explicitly stated site requirement.

I don't think I came across any "male / female" requirements, though maybe in a specialized forensic setting?

Psychmeout · Feb 9, 2008

I think what the "complex requirements" refers to is how some sites conduct their rankings. Some sites submit different ranking list even though they have one match number. For example say internship X has 4 spots open for incoming interns and two main training tracks (e.g., neuropsych track, behavioral medicine track) (still under same match number).......they will submit two lists to ROL with their potential candidates for each track. Using this system, intern A can be ranked #1 for the neuropsych track and intern B can be ranked #1 for the behavioral medicine track. This method ensures that the site gets their top choices with respect to the two different tracks. Hopefully this makes sense. Most sites will inform you of how they do the ranking process.

parto123 · Feb 10, 2008

I spoke to several people involved in the selection process, and the way programs ensure the "right" diversity among interns is by programs having multiple match lists (as some of you have alluded to above).

Although they obviously would not want to advertise it as such, they essentially fill some of their spots with their "white match list" and the remainder with the "minority match list."

Since programs and appic dont want this publicized they state that the multiple lists are mainly for prgrams with various tracks. However, anyone who is actually involved in the process knows that sites that have multiple tracks almost all have multiple match id #s which students can rank online and do not need to be submitted by hand by the program. Its almost as if they keep match lists offline when they are of the variety they do no want people knowing about.

http://www.natmatch.com/psychint/multrol.pdf

Therapist4Chnge · Feb 10, 2008

Thanks!

I wonder if they have a "white male" list...i mean, we *are* a minority in clinical programs because of our gender. 😀 I was the only male (or 1 of 2) at all of my interviews. I know they have multiple days, but still!

PsyDr · Feb 15, 2008

this is 100% false.

it would be incredibly ILLEGAL to discriminate based upon race, gender ethnicity, SES, disability status or any other federally protected category. it would not even be a state crime, it would be a federal matter.

there is NO WAY APPIC would participtate in a federal crime.

we cannot even ask if someone is pregnant even if they are very visibly showing, or if they are married despite how huge their wedding ring is.

the seperate lists refers to different internships within the same overall program. for example Everywhere University has 5 5 positions. 2 are neuro, 1 is child, one is adult. The neuro, pediatric, and adult programs must submit separate lists, the whole adding up to the sum of the 3 unique tracks.

parto123 · Feb 17, 2008

PSYDR said:
this is 100% false.

it would be incredibly ILLEGAL to discriminate based upon race, gender ethnicity, SES, disability status or any other federally protected category. it would not even be a state crime, it would be a federal matter.

there is NO WAY APPIC would participtate in a federal crime.

we cannot even ask if someone is pregnant even if they are very visibly showing, or if they are married despite how huge their wedding ring is.

the seperate lists refers to different internships within the same overall program. for example Everywhere University has 5 5 positions. 2 are neuro, 1 is child, one is adult. The neuro, pediatric, and adult programs must submit separate lists, the whole adding up to the sum of the 3 unique tracks.

Well, I actually wrote to the director of the match and he confirmed that prgrams do use separate lists to for the purpose of diversity. Also, in most situations there is no legal problem discriminating based on race in order to achieve diversity (see grutter v. bollinger), this is why schools and workplaces can use affirmative action.

Lunabin · Feb 18, 2008

This is kind of disheartening just given how small of a field it is, and this really gets at a lot of the criticisms with affirmative action... At this level, you'd think that merit based consideration would outweigh issues of diversity. Clearly this is going to stir debate.

I think it's interesting that I (along with others in this post) have done a lot of defending of the match - that it's not biased, and "can't possibly be so selective when it comes to race/ethnicity." It makes me wonder now, though, who is considered a minority???

In Psychology, certainly there is a huge influx of white women (or just women), and certainly men are not a minority in the general American workforce. It seems that if programs are not careful, they may inadvertently fall into reverse discrimination...

With match day approaching I'd like to personally wish everyone on here good luck!

Therapist4Chnge · Feb 18, 2008

Lunabin said:
This is kind of disheartening just given how small of a field it is, and this really gets at a lot of the criticisms with affirmative action... At this level, you'd think that merit based consideration would outweigh issues of diversity. Clearly this is going to stir debate.

In Psychology, certainly there is a huge influx of white women (or just women), and certainly men are not a minority in the general American workforce. It seems that if programs are not careful, they may inadvertently fall into reverse discrimination...

Those are also some of my concerns.

Lunabin said:
With match day approaching I'd like to personally wish everyone on here good luck!

Thanks!

edieb · Feb 18, 2008

I doubt there is a separate list for African Americans, Hispanics, GLBT, et cetera. There just aren't that many in applied psychology, so sites probably have one master list of all minority applicant....

parto123 · Feb 18, 2008

edieb said:
I doubt there is a separate list for African Americans, Hispanics, GLBT, et cetera. There just aren't that many in applied psychology, so sites probably have one master list of all minority applicant....

This sounds right. Based on what friends at internships tell me, it seems that it will often be done to match the demographic of a community (like a hospital in a Hispanic community will want to get a few Hispanic/bilingual interns).

PsyDr · Feb 19, 2008

well, i'll be damned.

i apologize.

deleted176373 · Feb 19, 2008

parto123 said:
I would also assume this was false, but then i read the recent listerve message from Greg Keilin, which mentioned "There are a significant number of sites with very complex requirements that must submit their Rank Order Lists to NMS on paper."

So clearly there is some process going on outside the computerized system, which makes this information that ive heard from independent sources more credible.

I would assume that the military internships are among these sites with "very complex requirements." As you can imagine, USUHS grads although matched like everyone else, really aren't. Even without collusion USUHS grads, I believe, are encouraged (directed) to only apply to their home service internship sites and you might imagine that they rank us very highly as well due to the fact that the command states that they will do so.

Mark

73BARMYPgsp · Feb 20, 2008

Markp said:
I would assume that the military internships are among these sites with "very complex requirements." As you can imagine, USUHS grads although matched like everyone else, really aren't. Even without collusion USUHS grads, I believe, are encouraged (directed) to only apply to their home service internship sites and you might imagine that they rank us very highly as well due to the fact that the command states that they will do so.

Mark

Oh man, I forgot-USUHS is in the match too!! Just how many Army clinical psychology 4th years are there at USUHS right now? (He asked while trying to calculate what that does to the match odds).

Actually, I am not worried about it. For the reasons you mentioned above, it would be pretty wierd for the Army to invest $130,000 in me and NOT give me an internship.

deleted176373 · Feb 20, 2008

73BARMYPgsp said:
Oh man, I forgot-USUHS is in the match too!! Just how many Army clinical psychology 4th years are there at USUHS right now? (He asked while trying to calculate what that does to the match odds).

Actually, I am not worried about it. For the reasons you mentioned above, it would be pretty wierd for the Army to invest $130,000 in me and NOT give me an internship.

I don't think you have to worry. There are only a handful of 4th years at USUHS. Remember across all 3 branches plus civilians we have maybe 32 students... We aren't much of a factor. Don't worry... The army wants every body it can get.

Mark

73BARMYPgsp · Feb 20, 2008

Markp said:
I don't think you have to worry. There are only a handful of 4th years at USUHS. Remember across all 3 branches plus civilians we have maybe 32 students... We aren't much of a factor. Don't worry... The army wants every body it can get.

Mark

Oh yes, I know. Here's the cool part--when it is time to re-sign, I am going to hold out for loan repayment--and I will probably get it. Then my entire education, from BS to my first MA to PhD will be paid for by Uncle Sam.

Internship match question

parto123

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Therapist4Chnge

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parto123

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Sanman

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Psychmeout

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parto123

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PsyDr

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parto123

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Lunabin

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edieb

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