New Zealand RMO strike
Started by zippy2u
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Did a google news search for 'NZ doctor strike'
http://news.theage.com.au/striking-nz-doctors-want-aussie-wages/20080422-27ro.html
http://www.northernadvocate.co.nz/l...localnews&thesubsection=&thesecondsubsection=
http://www.tv3.co.nz/News/Story/tabid/209/articleID/53269/cat/41/Default.aspx
Looks like the RMOs in NZ are unhappy with their pay, and have been moving to Aus in droves.. While this is probably a good thing for the Aus public hospitals who need more trainee doctors, it could have major implications for healthcare in NZ.
Not sure about the $500/hr pay though, if that was true the position would be filled by NZ consultants before anyone else..!
http://news.theage.com.au/striking-nz-doctors-want-aussie-wages/20080422-27ro.html
http://www.northernadvocate.co.nz/l...localnews&thesubsection=&thesecondsubsection=
http://www.tv3.co.nz/News/Story/tabid/209/articleID/53269/cat/41/Default.aspx
Looks like the RMOs in NZ are unhappy with their pay, and have been moving to Aus in droves.. While this is probably a good thing for the Aus public hospitals who need more trainee doctors, it could have major implications for healthcare in NZ.
Not sure about the $500/hr pay though, if that was true the position would be filled by NZ consultants before anyone else..!
Well, at least this gives us some insight into how much doctors (and residents) make in Australia... I've always been curious and I can never find any specific numbers.
$88k plus 6 weeks vacation during a residency? That's unheard of here in the US... residents work 60-70 hrs/week and earn $40k with no vacation.
$88k plus 6 weeks vacation during a residency? That's unheard of here in the US... residents work 60-70 hrs/week and earn $40k with no vacation.
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At the current exchange rate $ 88,000 NZD = approx $ 70,192 USD (Not too shabby)
...actually at many places in the states.. you work more like 85-90 hrs/wk(because of "clocked out hours" you may still be at the hospital). Lets say the average stipend is 39k USD/year (which is a flat annual payment regardless of how much your program works you). That's 88hrs/wk X 52wks = 4576 hrs. 39k / 4576 = $ 8.50/hr USD.
In Australia and New Zealand they pay their resident a stipend based on a 60hr work week usually about $71k NZD (or $23NZD/hr) or [$56,632 USD per year (or $ 18.35 USD/hr)] In Australia and New Zealand.. just like in the United States residents work longer hours than just 60hrs/wk (there is nothing saying you can't work more than 60hrs/wk). However, when they do work over this (60hrs) or when they take call... they will earn time and half regular pay per hour. This jacks their annual take home to around 88-95k NZD/year or approx $ 71,217 - 75,803 USD/year.
The pay is about the same in Australia, but because the Australian dollar is worth slightly more than the New Zealand dollar they end up making a bit more. Also, some hospitals in Australia allow a resident to "moonlight/locum" while they are in training during their breaks, and at night, etc. This allows them to bring home even more. A resident in Australia who moonlights/locums quite a bit can "sometimes" bring in 130-150k AUD (Australian dollars)/year or... $123,466 - $142,490 USD/year.
make sense?
Maybe if the US residents unionised and formed something similar to the NZRDA.. maybe the USRDA? You could get similar benefits. Thoughts? 🙂
In case you have not been keeping up with current events the Dollar is crashing in value. The Fed keeps lowering interest rates and is printing more money, this is what the Romans did just before their Empire fell apart.
US Dollar??? What a joke. I rather be paid in Euros. The Australian and Canadian Dollar are also set to increase sharply in value. The Aussie dollar is already nearly on parity with the Greenback.
Yeah, I was so surprised that the NZers were complaining about their salaries (knowing about what we make in the US and what they make in Aus) that I wrote a blog post about it.
http://www.globallyrational.com/2008/04/22/disease-cant-go-on-strike-why-can-doctors/
http://www.globallyrational.com/2008/04/22/disease-cant-go-on-strike-why-can-doctors/
Have you tried applying to a 6 year medical program in Australia or New Zealand out of High school? Do you know what sort of average grade point and exam scores you must have in order to get into one of these?
Do you know that the graduate entry medical programs in Australia are identical to the 4 year programs in the US? ... and also require a previous bachelors degree and MCAT or GAMSAT exams, interviews, etc?
Do you know what the #of applicants per seat in medical school ratio is for all medical schools in Australia and New Zealand?
I just feel that you can't really comment on the "competitiveness" of a system you have neither personally experienced nor have sufficiently researched.
That being said... I do agree with what you've written… in that medical residents in the US deserve to be paid more than they currently do. Instead of focusing on capping or changing the "work hour limit". US medical residents need to unionise and just demand a different pay schedule just like in Aus and NZ. Yes you can work 80+ hrs per week as a resident in the states.. just make sure that after 60hrs you are getting sufficiently reimbursed for your work!!
thoughts?
FYI: the term "registrar" is Australia and New Zealand is the same thing as "resident" in the US and Canada. It denotes a doctor currently enrolled in an accredited graduate medical education training program.
I found this: http://www.gpra.org.au/tnc.php which outlines the average pay schedule for gp training (family medicine residency programs) in Austraila.
Also, financial bonuses provided from the Austrailan gov for those doing their GP/Family medicine residency in rural (area of need) places: http://www.agpt.com.au/pdf/RRIPS%20for web v13.pdf
I found this: http://www.gpra.org.au/tnc.php which outlines the average pay schedule for gp training (family medicine residency programs) in Austraila.
Also, financial bonuses provided from the Austrailan gov for those doing their GP/Family medicine residency in rural (area of need) places: http://www.agpt.com.au/pdf/RRIPS%20for web v13.pdf
Australian medical students get 4 months of vacation out of a year and US students don't get any. Also, US students are trained much more thoroughly in the basic sciences.
Yes, and that's about it. US medical schools also require research experience, clinical experience, recommendation letters, a series of essays, astronomical GPAs (i.e. 3.7/4), etc... and that's just the requirements. In Australia, applicants are ranked objectively... but in the US, it's completely subjective based on what the admissions counselors think of you.
I don't know the exact ratio, but that's irrelevant because the applicant pool is different in the US and in Aus/NZ. I know that the acceptance rates are very low in all three countries.
I am very familiar with the admissions process at Australian schools. I also know that I'm having a lot of difficulty getting into med school in the US (because of my low GPA and high MCAT), but I am very likely to be admitted in Australia. Australian schools have much more varied admissions criteria and much more objective standards, so you can easily find a school that fits your credentials well:
-UQ and USyd base their admissions almost entirely on the MCAT/GAMSAT and interview.
-Flinders, Monash, and some others will rank applicants based on the GPA, the MCAT/GAMSAT, and the interview.
-Wollongong (and probably some others)'s ranking system is more dependent on personal background than MCAT/GAMSAT or GPA.
At US schools, they all have the same requirements. I have a friend who scored 31 on the MCAT and had a near-perfect GPA (over 3.9 out of 4.0) and he couldn't get into most of his preferred med schools because he didn't have enough clinical/research experience. At most Australian schools, the clinical/research experience is irrelevant for admissions.
Anyway, the bottom line is that while admissions aren't easy at Australian med schools by any means, they're definitely easier than in the US.
Are you kidding??? You will not have fighting chance of getting into a top 25 Research US medical school unless your MCAT is 33 or better, and your GPA is a bare minimum of 3.6. Lower tier medical schools outside this elite 25, there might be better chances with those.
Clinical/Research Experience may not be so relevant for admissions but once you get here, it will definitely help if you have the background.
Even US Osteopathic Medical schools have quite a few hurdles to jump over to get into them. I would say Australian medical schools are definitely not as hard to get into as North American schools.
Yeah... I'm working with a 2.9 GPA and a 35 on the MCAT. That will get my application thrown in the trash at most US med schools, but I'm a shoo-in at most Australian med schools. I've got a great background (in terms of experience), but my GPA will automatically disqualify me at many places. The problem is that in the US, we have this idea that "anybody can be successful if you work hard enough", so I think we over-value the GPA (since studies show that it's not a very strong indicator of good performance in med school).
I've actually heard the opposite, at the risk of perpetuating this thread in a direction other than the one it was started.
I heard course load and performance in those courses as an undergraduate was an indicator of medical school success in the US. This was, of course, a bummer to me because my bachelor's was started almost 10 years ago and they don't look at graduate courses, but I digress.
Also, from what I hear, the verbal section on the MCAT is a good indicator of USMLE step 1 success as well. Of course this is just rumor on my part because I read this information on SDN forums. However, most of this seems logical. Don't misinterpret, the US medical school admissions process is in NO WAY logical haha. With a degree in clinical neurophysio and about to finish my PhD in behavioral neuroscience I have no shot at US medical schools... especially after purchasing the latest MSAR. Hopefully my marks will be deemed sufficient for our overseas friends.
The GPA has a very weak correlation with med school performance. I'm not sure what you "heard", but if you do a search on Google Scholar (Google's search engine for academic research articles), you'll see that all papers about this topic suggest that undergrad GPA has a weak correlation with med school GPA and a very weak correlation with USMLE score. I don't remember the correlation between MCAT score and med school GPA, but it was strongly correlated with USMLE scores.
These studies are actually the reason why schools like U.Queensland don't consider the GPA in their ranking procedure.
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haha. Forgive me for the inaccurate phrasing. I'm in that generation that is transitioning to a texting/computer interactive lifestlye and I need to replace "heard" and "said" with "read" and "typed".
Anyway, I do agree that too much emphasis is being placed on GPA. Interestingly, the University of Sydney is considering using GPA to rank their applicants in the future. The currently only use it to place candidates for interviews. It seems the GPA fad is making its way west...or east, depending on which way you go haha.
Each medical school is different. Not every school has the same vacation schedules. Which program are you referring to? I would be careful making blanket statements like that.
I had Australian classmates who did take the USMLE and did VERY well. Obviously they learned enough basic sciences (enough to be in the 90+% of all American medical students). hmm.
These things are taken into account in Australia as well.. I had 2 classmates (that I knew about) who already had PhDs prior to doing med.
Actually it is relevant, because the ratio of applicants to spots usually is a better measure of Competitiveness.
Your second statement is correct however that it is difficult to get accepted in all 3 countries.
You will find some medical schools in the US that are more researched based than others as well. This is no different than Australia.
You are comparing applying to American medical schools as an American to applying to Australian medical schools as an American. Apples and Oranges...
Maybe you should be comparing your experience to what its like for a local Australian to apply for Australian medical schools.
Here's why:
Competitiveness as I stated before is directly related to # of applicants to the # of open spots. If an Australian medical schools has 80 spots for local applicants and they have 2000 applicants for those spots it is going to be very competitive for them. However, if that same school has 15 spots for internationals and they only have 200 applicants for those 15 spots. Then by comparison it may be quite easy for those applicants to get a spot.
Think about it. 👍
finally.. if you can't get into medical school in the US and you want to apply to an Australian medical school so you can pursue your dream of being a doctor. "IF" you do get accepted to go to medical school somewhere in Australia.. I would be a little more respectful of your potential future alma mater than that. (if I were you) Sorry.. just sounds like you are being a bit negative regarding the status or quality of education one might recieve at ALL Australian medical schools. Correct me if I'm wrong. 👍
I think 7.5% acceptance rate for international students is nearly just as competitive as 4% acceptance rate my local students.
fair enough...
And this of course would vary from school to school. Which schools information are you quoting? Can you cite your source?
American schools aren't different. They all offer practically zero vacation.
Most Australian students have to study independently for the USMLE. Some universities, i.e. USyd, even make it a point to say this on their website. Also, the USMLE doesn't report percentiles... if they scored 90+, then that's just a score (not a percentile... it's a common misconception).
A PhD is a plus for Aus admissions, I'll agree to that... but they don't look at the intangibles as much as the Americans do. With a 5.0 GPA and an above-average GAMSAT/MCAT score, you'll get into UQ, but you won't get into most American schools because your GPA is too low. With a near-perfect GPA and a 31 on the MCAT (like my friend that I mentioned), you'll get into any Australian school just based on your credentials... but he didn't get in to most American schools because he didn't have any other experience.
I know that some Australian schools do take these factors into account... but my point is that there are also some schools that don't. In the US, these factors are very important to every school. If you don't have any research/clinical background, you can still get in to most schools in Australia.
It will tell you competitiveness, but it won't tell you how well-qualified the applicants are. In my experience (and this statement has been confirmed by some administrators at Australian universities), American/Canadian undergraduates (most of which couldn't get into med school in the US) are usually the best applicants in Australia.
In my birth country of Pakistan, for instance, med schools are unbelievably competitive but have a very high acceptance rate... that's because you need a very high standardized test score just to be eligible to apply. Similarly, in the US, most pre-meds won't even apply to medical school because they know that they won't get in.
All schools in the US are tightly regulated by the LCME, so they all have very similar admissions policies. At most schools, I'm not even eligible to apply because my GPA is below 3.0 (out of 4).
I've been told by admissions counselors that admissions are just as competitive for local students and international students. International applicants tend to have higher qualifications, probably because they're obviously motivated enough to leave their home country in pursuit of higher education.
Competitiveness isn't just about # of applicants to # of open spots... it's more related to the # of QUALITY applicants to the # of open spots. Since "quality" is very clearly delineated on most Aus schools' websites, an international student knows when it's not worth it to apply (for instance, many of my friends didn't score well enough on the MCAT to get into Australia, so they just went to the Caribbean or to pharmacy school). Meanwhile, if a local student gets a low GAMSAT score, they're still likely to apply because their home country is still their first preference.
So, I don't think you can directly look at applicant-to-admission ratio... you need to look at the cutoff for admissions. I know that some Americans didn't get into UQ with a 30 on the MCAT last year, which is about the same as a 60 on the GAMSAT (in terms of percentile). UQ's admissions cutoff was 62 last year for the GAMSAT, so I think we can safely say that admissions there are equally competitive for both locals and internationals. Since UQ has the most lax admissions policy towards internationals, I don't think it's unreasonable to conclude that admissions are equally competitive for both schools.
The quality of education in Australia is excellent. I'm looking forward to going there and I would never say that it's subpar.. I know that these are great research institutions and I'm not being negative at all... I was just stating some facts and pointing out a paradox: it's harder to become a doctor in the US, but American residents are overworked and underpaid compared with Australians.
As they should... Australian medical schools main objective is train doctors to work in Australia. They have no more reason to train you to sit the USMLE as Harvard does to train you to sit the Canadian boards or Australian fellowship exams. Australian medical schools are not the same as Caribbean medical schools who make it a goal train people who couldn't get into med school in the states and then train them to sit the USMLE and integrate back into the states. 👍
I agree that quality of medical education in Australia is excellent and 'at least' equal to what you would you receive at any top US medical school.
Maybe US medical students and residents should have AMSA pushing for higher levels of gov subsidization of their medical education and better pay for residents! 🙂
I think American doctors are trained to avoid thinking independently and just know what prescription to write for what disease. They're so used to being overworked and underappreciated that they don't even think about it.
US and Canadian schools take people who they know are going to succeed academically as well as not drop out or fail. They look at a lot more variables than Australian schools. Also a lot of people at Aussie schools don't graduate, there in one school which loses 10 percent of its class after the second year.
A lot of Australian schools are financially strapped, that is why they go a bit easier on international students, because they want the money. Try British medical schools, if you have less than 3.6 and less than a 30 MCAT, they will throw away your application. They also rarely take North Americans.
Still I would not advise someone from North America who wanted to become licensed in the US to apply to Australian schools, if LCME schools did not take them, they should try Osteopathic schools instead.
A lot of Australian schools are financially strapped, that is why they go a bit easier on international students, because they want the money. Try British medical schools, if you have less than 3.6 and less than a 30 MCAT, they will throw away your application. They also rarely take North Americans.
Still I would not advise someone from North America who wanted to become licensed in the US to apply to Australian schools, if LCME schools did not take them, they should try Osteopathic schools instead.
That may be so.. but that doesn't mean that the medical education you actually receive from a British medical school is any better or worse than what you will receive at an Australian medical school. Also, British medical schools equally don't cater to Americans who want to pass the USMLE.
I agree with you.. If someone's main end goal is to work in the US.. then go to medical school in the US. 👍
The Aussie dollar like the Canadian loonie is tied to world commodity prices which in turn is tied to demand. Chindia is growing like crazy, I just don't see the demand for resources letting up anytime soon because of this rising Asian giant. The Aussie dollar's health is largely linked to Asia. Mr. Kevin Rudd's election has made it apparent that Australia's future and current prosperity is tied to Asia.
