question on becoming a doctor for the money

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GottaGet

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i have read many posts with people saying something like the following:

"Becoming a doctor is a long, difficult process. It can't be just about the money. If it's the money you're after, then there are other careers to take that require less studying time, debt, sacrifice" etc.

Lots of people have said this. All of them also left out an alternative career option to take. I mean one where you study less years and material than medical school but make a similar amount of money. I keep waiting for someone to write "if you're after money, then you can do....instead" When will someone suggest these ideas?? haha.

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i have read many posts with people saying something like the following:

"Becoming a doctor is a long, difficult process. It can't be just about the money. If it's the money you're after, then there are other careers to take that require less studying time, debt, sacrifice" etc.

Lots of people have said this. All of them also left out an alternative career option to take. I mean one where you study less years and material than medical school but make a similar amount of money. I keep waiting for someone to write "if you're after money, then you can do....instead" When will someone suggest these ideas?? haha.

Well medicine is a lifelong sacrifice, the years studying, the years away from socializing and society, and the money invested.

Take one senerio, calculate something like this, the years of lost income and cost of tuition times all the years your invested in, plus interest. Now take that simple biology or bachelors degree, and get for example a Masters in Health Care Administration or a MBA, work yourself up the ladder, and in seven years you will have a good sized 401K, a house with equity, and pretty much doing minimal work you will have hit a good executive position. Other careers, law, you will be done by 25, not saying it's easy, but easier than medicine time commitment and stuyding, even graduating from a tier 3 law school my college classmate got a job making 98K, now after 7 years he is a partner making 280K plus bonus. I would say any job I mean any job that doesnt have a dead end such as teaching at a high school has a better income potention as long as there is some potential for upward mobility. How many physicians do you see as multi millionaires, not much. How many engineers, computer scientists or finance majors who went to work up the ladder and just got an MBA and got some good company stocks that shot out of the roof, alot...

Medicine is very tedious, you have to love it and the idea behind it and know the sacrifice behind it, it's grueling work and alot of BS is involved, from HMOs to lawsuits, to liability, to paper pushing... If you want to stay in the healthcare field, I will say dentistry too, less years invested, you're geared toward partnership and owning your own practice, work less hours, less HMO BS, and alot of cash patients for cosmetics.
 
Physicians aren't some unique nobility of the land, which is to say we aren't the only ones doing our job for good reasons beyond the pay. However, most folks I know of who pursued higher education have a VERY GOOD idea of the money they can expect in the end for all their hard work. A real DAMN GOOD idea. But, YES (as though this even bears repeating on SDN anymore)...medicine has to be about more than the money....just like any other profession should be, in order to sustain enthusiasm for it over a lifetime.

But, I don't care about how anyone complains or bemoans the fact that doctors aren't making enough....even pediatricians with their paltry $110,000/year or whatever, aren't what I would call bad off. Yeah...there are other professions that MIGHT pay that much ONE DAY...if everything goes right and you find yourself in the right place at the right time...but that paltry salary is a GARUANTEE (not sure how to spell that) for ANY doctor, plus much more usually. Sure we have to pay pack our loans to the tune of $1000-2000/month, and sure we have to pay malpractice, but in the end doctors make a level of pay that beats out about 99.9% of the entire world. (Probably an overstatement, but you get the point). And besides the pay, there aren't many other jobs with the kind of job security that physicians enjoy...Sure...some docs say they can't find a job, but maybe they mean they just don't want to move where the jobs are. Depending on who you listen to we are either in a recession or at the brink of one...a lot of people are already hurting & a lot more are going to join them...but I'd be willing to bet that not many of them will be doctors (possibly some of the ones who live beyond their means will, or those who are just plain F'd up, but I'd say ALL doctors should be recession proof as long as they adjust their standard of living).

Why am I ranting? Sorry...I guess it just purturbs me when I hear about doctors/med students/pre-meds knocking anyone who gets into medicine for the money. It is very dishonest for most of us to act as though money is so far down our list of priorities, when I KNOW with 100% assurance in my heart that if teaching or nursing GARUANTEED as much pay as doctors make....or MORE...then medical schools probably wouldn't fill their seats. And if money didn't matter to most of us noble med students, then I know that without a doubt more would be going into primary care specialties so that we don't have to IMPORT family practice, pediatric, & psych docs from other countries at such high rates in order to fill the residency slots.

And, really...that's the bottom line. Just check out the percentage of each specialty that is filled by US allopathic M4's, according to 2002 statistics:

Ortho = 94% (BIG MONEY)
Plastic = 94% (BIG MONEY)
DERM = 91% (GREAT MONEY + LIFESTYLE)
Rad Onc = 90% (GREAT MONEY + LIFESTYLE)
Optho = 88% (GREAT MONEY + LIFESTYLE)
EM = 88% (VERY DECENT MONEY + LIFESTYLE)
Rad = 86% (BIG MONEY + LIFESTYLE)
GAS = 82% (GREAT MONEY)
OB/GYN = 80% (GOOD MONEY, but MALPRACTICE is SCARY)
GS = 80% (GOOD MONEY, But not for the time + malpractice worries)
Peds = 78% (I would bet most of these will subspecialize)
PM&R = 75% (DECENT MONEY + LIFESTYLE, surprised not higher up)
Path = 66% (Everyone knows PATH is a tight job market)
Neuro = 64% (At low end of doctor pay)
IM = 62% (Low end of pay, unless you subspecialize...which most will)
FP = 60% (Low end of pay)
Psych = 59% (Low end of pay)

So...as I see it...M4's are FLOCKING in droves to the high pay specialites that offer a pretty decent lifestyle. I would say that the only reason PEDS has so many apply is that most plan to subspecialize in the pediatric version of the adult specialty their Step 1 score/grades couldn't get for them.

So, basically....don't believe anyone who says you can't go into medicine for the money...because, my friend, that is exactly what's being done. The statistics don't lie. In fact, I would think that anyone who feels the urge to pipe up and hand out shame every time someone seems remotely interested in how much they can expect to make as a physician...that person is probably one of the ones who has already looked into how much an architect will cost for their custom built home. (in other words, they are already spending their money).

OH...and as for me...I'm no better than anyone else. I grew up in a trashy trailer, in a trashy neighborhood, eating the cheapest generic crap on the shelves...so I am DEFINITELY looking forward to when I get paid. But then again, that's a lot of the reason why a pediatrician's salary will likely suit me just fine.
 
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UMMMM.....just realized my last post sort of went off on a tangent...It's 5 in the morning...so I tend to do that. Sorry, that it doesn't really contribute to the OP's actual question. But, HEY....it's something worth saying anyway.
 
I have not done any research on the issue, but has anyone considered, or has it been discussed as to the possible effect of a nationalized healthcare system would do to salaries? While I do not believe that it will ever happen here in the US, but if it did would the lifestyles and pay for Doctors be negatively impacted?

I have been a solo-practicing attorney since the day I received my license to practice law, and I have made good money, I have made bad, and some months I have made none. According to the Dept. of Labor, the entire healthcare industry (and related fields) has a very good rating for like the next 15 years. I know that some states are having problems finding Doctors for lower income areas, so they are going overseas looking for Doctors who want to come to the US and practice in low income areas, and as the carrot, they are helping those Doctors get their immigration issues in order, and the Doctor only needs to agree to practice for the state or in low income areas for 2 -3 years, then they are free to go for higher paying positions with their Green Cards safely in their wallets or purses.

I currently represent several Doctors from Iran who came here at the invitation of the state, they all came together, practiced for the state, and now they have formed their own group practice. I protect their interests in Bankruptcy Court when it is possible.

When I was in Michigan on Business 2 weeks ago I caught a radio interview of the CEO's of the Henry Ford Hospital Group, and Beaumont Hospital system, they too talked about a Doctor shortage, and their attempts to recruit overseas. I'm not an immigration-phobe, but I think that some changes need to be made to allow more residents in hospitals, and more med school students, but without lowering standards.

I can tell you, I went to school with plenty of people who were going into the law for the money; most didn't make it through law school. This forum has certainly given me a new outlook on the whole process, but I am still motivate to go for it, as I believe that any dream you decide to peruse is worth the work, but I really had to look within myself to decide if my dream was to practice medicine, or just to make money.

A lot of people do not realize what the "health care" industry is comprised of; it includes professionals of all types, engineers, chemists, administrators, sales professionals, educators, etc... The list can go on.

Then again, a family member of mine, who graduated HS at the same time as me was working for McDonalds when we graduated, and he now owns 7 of them, the golden arches have made him rich.
 
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Real estate.
Finance/trading.
Pharmacist.
Executive MBA
Accounting
Consulting
Hell, pretty much any business you start is easy to make successful in this country if you are willing to put the time into it and show the tiniest bit of customer service/respect. Open up a chain of fast food franchises and you'll make a ton with minimal work.

I presume many readers saw the wall street journal article about citibank laying off 10% of their global investment banking staff?

Having been in the entrepreneurial space for years, I can assure you that its as easy to be a business owner as to become one of those lazy surgeons. Talk to a few venture capitalists & those in that space some time. Most businesses fail within the first 1-2 years statistically, the owners often suffer financially (ie bankruptcy). The ones who succeed may make it look easy, but they work very, very long hard hours.

Something to be said about consistent salaries in medicine for the time being as well as the overall compensation level.

A thought on the career planning side would be to go to salary.com, type in different physician specialties in your zip code. Research what the average college grad makes. High school grad. Yes, there are anecdotes. There are also physician CEOs making millions. Attorneys particularly are having a very difficult time at many schools finding ANY legal jobs, quite a few are temping years after graduating. Check out law school placement rates. (despite my grade school friend who made partner at the first possibl vote at sidley & austin and is probably making over $1 million base now)

I think for most people, being happy is more important than money, provided there's enough money to pay for food & rent and basics. I've met folk for whom making money is more important, many of them went into consulting (or ibanking) after business school. I'd say accounting and finance is in that group also, it won't pay quite as well (company finance) but it can be a path up. But at a large company there is one CFO, a handful of finance directors, a whole bunch of finance managers. It's challenging to be the best of the hunreds hired into that area given the rewards for winning that coveted top role.
 
Don't pursue medicine if your goal in life is to earn lots of $

The more important question may be: how do you want to balance your work/family life?

Also, how much $ do you need to be 'satisfied'?

Many physicians are transitioning to cash-only or 'boutique' practices that are helping them earn much more $ and work less hrs. There are many different options out there depending on what you want to do.

Reimbursement from insurance companies continue to drop, so the crisis in this country worsens.

I also know that many psychiatrists no longer accept insurance and only take cash. That type of work can be very lucrative if you're charging $2-300/hr per session.
 
i have read many posts with people saying something like the following:

"Becoming a doctor is a long, difficult process. It can't be just about the money. If it's the money you're after, then there are other careers to take that require less studying time, debt, sacrifice" etc.

Lots of people have said this. All of them also left out an alternative career option to take. I mean one where you study less years and material than medical school but make a similar amount of money. I keep waiting for someone to write "if you're after money, then you can do....instead" When will someone suggest these ideas?? haha.
Most people on these forums (even the Nontrads forum, but especially the non-Nontrads forums) have had no business experience and have a naive view of the non-academic, non-medical-related world. The second post in this thread that suggests that it is easy to, in 7 years, become a corporate executive is a good example of this.

I'll summarize my personal feelings about medicine and money, FWIW. Actually, how much money you make has less to do with what career you choose, and more to do with what kind of person you are. Some people have good business sense and are good at making money. Those people will make money in any field. Others don't. They won't. Sure, medicine requires more years of training, and a lot of those years simply suck (I'm going by anecdotes like Panda's blog) but those years of training can be parlayed into larger earnings further down the road.

Selling out and pursuing any career solely because of the earnings potential might pay off in the short term, but you'll come to hate what you do.

To answer the question in the OP, if money is what interests you the most, you should pursue a career in business. Duh.
 
i have read many posts with people saying something like the following:

"Becoming a doctor is a long, difficult process. It can't be just about the money. If it's the money you're after, then there are other careers to take that require less studying time, debt, sacrifice" etc.

Lots of people have said this. All of them also left out an alternative career option to take. I mean one where you study less years and material than medical school but make a similar amount of money. I keep waiting for someone to write "if you're after money, then you can do....instead" When will someone suggest these ideas?? haha.

Actually, EVERY one of those threads offers multiple career options, but since premeds unfortunately don't have a very broad view of the world, it usually gets distilled down to a very short list of options (law, banking, dentistry). But in fact there is no shortage of careers out there. You can make money in virtually anything. If you open up a business where there is high demand, high traffic, low competition, your costs are reasonable, and you have good people you can trust to manage so you can work on other ventures, expansions, big picture, you will make money. As a lawyer I've worked with people who made a ton of money in virtually every industry. I've worked with restaurateurs, I've worked with serial entrepreneurs, resellers, wholesalers, retailers, franchisees. Most made very decent salaries, many better than folks will make in medicine. Heck, I've done some work for a postal employee who was a millionaire. And a woman with half a high school education who buys, refurbishes and resells condos for huge profits. If your goal is money, there are simply easier paths. Not broad roadmaps, like go into XYZ. But open paths.

There is no one road map for success. You have to have an eye for it and be willing to take the appropriate gambles. It involves hard work, focus, the right skillset (innate or acquired).

However most would agree that taking yourself out of the workforce for a decade (school and residency), taking on a quarter of a million in debt, and entering a profession where the salaries, although high, are pretty lockstepped (no unlimited upside), not keeping up with inflation over the last decade, and actually threatening to decline in the face of declining reimbursements, is simply not a smart move if your goal is to maximize wealth.

Folks forget about the "time value of money" (less money today is worth more than more money later), a concept that all of finance is based upon and yet apparently not taught to a lot of premeds. Meaning the dude who goes to 3 years of law school (with $150k in debt) and then earns $100k/year (plus annual raises and bonuses), and invests his disposable income wisely, is far far far ahead of the dude who goes to a year of postbac, 4 years of med school (borrowing $200k), then 4 years of nominal salaried residency, and only thereafter earns $200k/year. It's simply a bad investment if money is the goal.

But don't expect the answer to be, "a better career for the money is" XYZ. Because XYZ can be virtually anything. It just can't be something that keeps you from earning for a long period of time while simultaneously borrowing. Rich people don't seek out flat salaries. They seek out upside potential. And in medicine there really isn't one -- your salary is your salary. The sky isn't the limit. What folks in your region are earning is. And this can go down, or lose ground against inflation (as it currently has been). In fact medicine is the ONLY profession that has lost ground against inflation over the past decade. This should be a harbinger of things to come, not a beckoning.

Which won't matter much if money is not your primary goal. It's too long and hard a path to sustain your interest if a supposed payday at the end is all you seek. You have to like it or it's not worth it.
 
Try reading "The Millionaire Next Door".
It describes people from varied backgrounds and how they achieved wealth. It pretty much all boils down to living below your means and investing a substantial amount in things you understand.

As Law2Doc said, you can become wealthy in almost anything if you invest wisely; and by this I don't mean you luck out and get into a Google IPO with your life savings. It takes time and discipline. Not a very exciting concept, that's why you won't hear it talked about as much as the latest method to get rich quick.

It's not what you do that makes you wealthy; it's what you do with the money you earn.
 
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I know union plumbers and electricians who have been making $60/hr since they dropped out of high school in 10th grade. I will hopefully graduate med school when I am 30 and be done with residency by the time I am 33-35, that means that these high school dropout friends of mine have almost a 20 year headstart at $60/hr. They will own a house and be settled, saving for retirement, while I am still making $8/hr as a resident. Sure I may pass them in wealth much later on (and I do mean much), but if I was really in it for the money, their route would be wiser, with less heartache and headache. Note, this holds quadrupally true for non-trads who are starting late in the game.
 
Sure I may pass them in wealth much later on (and I do mean much),

If they invested well (bought a house that appreciated significantly, bought equity or debt instruments that yielded average or above returns), you possibly will never will pass them. 20 years is a huge head start in terms of investment, and you will have debt to pay back to boot.

And as you mentioned, an older nontrad without the extra couple of decades of catch up time is even less likely to pass such peers.
 
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We keep getting encouraged by talk of reimbursing student debt for primary care docs and it freaking never happens.

I want to go into primary care.

I don't really care about making a lot of money but I can't think of $200K+ debt without getting serious indigestion.
 
We keep getting encouraged by talk of reimbursing student debt for primary care docs and it freaking never happens.

There are a number of state schools and state programs that will reimburse tuition if you commit to a number of years of doing primary care in certain underserved population locations.
 
But don't expect the answer to be, "a better career for the money is" XYZ. Because XYZ can be virtually anything. It just can't be something that keeps you from earning for a long period of time while simultaneously borrowing. Rich people don't seek out flat salaries. They seek out upside potential. And in medicine there really isn't one -- your salary is your salary. The sky isn't the limit. What folks in your region are earning is. And this can go down, or lose ground against inflation (as it currently has been). In fact medicine is the ONLY profession that has lost ground against inflation over the past decade. This should be a harbinger of things to come, not a beckoning.

This is 100% wrong. Put another way, you are saying that there is no room for innovation in delivering medicine. There can be no entrepreneurship, you just have to take whatever salary you are given. Flat out, 100% wrong.

What you say is true, on average. If you want some examples to back up my statement, go talk to some doctors that are making significantly more than average.

I don't care to elaborate any further, because I have some ideas that I hope to eventually put to practice (pun intended.)
 
This is 100% wrong. Put another way, you are saying that there is no room for innovation in delivering medicine. There can be no entrepreneurship, you just have to take whatever salary you are given. Flat out, 100% wrong.

What you say is true, on average. If you want some examples to back up my statement, go talk to some doctors that are making significantly more than average.

I don't care to elaborate any further, because I have some ideas that I hope to eventually put to practice (pun intended.)

We don't really disagree. What I said is going to be true for 99.999% of folks going into medicine. The remaining .001 outlier (like perhaps yourself) simply isn't going to disprove the truth of my statement. Sure, you can be an innovator and earn more. You can be a Jarvic or a Foley or whoever else major things are named after. But nobody I know will be. And probably nobody else reading this thread. For everyone else, the salary is what it is, and that's your ceiling. This is in contrast to folks in banking, entrepreneurs, and other businesses who can have great years and earn great incomes, because there really isn't a maximum they can net. Medicine (for most) won't be like that. You get reimbursed by insurance companies, and there's a finite number of procedures/office visits you can do in a day.
 
We don't really disagree. What I said is going to be true for 99.999% of folks going into medicine. The remaining .001 outlier (like perhaps yourself) simply isn't going to disprove the truth of my statement. Sure, you can be an innovator and earn more. You can be a Jarvic or a Foley or whoever else major things are named after. But nobody I know will be. And probably nobody else reading this thread. For everyone else, the salary is what it is, and that's your ceiling. This is in contrast to folks in banking, entrepreneurs, and other businesses who can have great years and earn great incomes, because there really isn't a maximum they can net. Medicine (for most) won't be like that. You get reimbursed by insurance companies, and there's a finite number of procedures/office visits you can do in a day.
Again, if you go back to my first post in this thread, I think I agree with your assessment of medicine. However, I disagree with your assessment of other careers. To me, earnings in medicine = high mean, low variance. Earnings in other fields that you mention = lower mean, higher variance.
 
Earnings in other fields that you mention = lower mean, higher variance.

If you are going into something for money, you want all the variance you can get. You don't get really rich by playing it safe. It's the risk-reward balance. You want unlimited upside even if it increases the downside risk. The variance is what lets I bankers earn a multi million dollar bonus one year but run the risk of layoffs the next. So sure, physician may offer a safe, stable income after a lot of years of training (meaning less value due to the time value of money) that allows you to live a decent life (albeit not as decent as prior generations of doctors did). But someone going into something for the money isn't just looking for decent. They are looking for rich and so the ceiling simply would be unacceptable for such a person. So if it's purely for the money you can do better elsewhere. It might take a combination of skill, luck, and hard work, but the sky is the limit. If it's for safety maybe not. But nobody goes into a career because it's safe. Or at least they shouldn't because they'd all be bored out of their minds working as undertakers.
 
All of them also left out an alternative career option to take. I mean one where you study less years and material than medical school but make a similar amount of money.

To be honest, there aren't any.

Medicine is a guaranteed six figure salary for the rest of your life after a minimum of 7 years post-undergrad study (only four of which aren't paid). There are no other careers that offer this stability.

Business? Anyone who thinks that six figures are easily attainable in the vast world of "business" is wrong. For some lucky souls who probably work the hours of a doctor for the best part of a decade, yes, six figures might be possible.

Law? Again, for some lucky, very smart and hard-working people, a six figure job out of law school is possible. But most law grads don't have those kinds of jobs. Nor do most lawyers make bank. Plus the work of a lawyer is tedious, thankless and unbelievably boring.

Perhaps I'm jaded, but I seriously believe that job security and high salary are what attracts most people to medicine. Of course, everyone has other reasons for medicine too, but one reason is the money.

Yes, medical school is a long, hard path. But so is every career in which you hope to be financially rewarded.
 
To be honest, there aren't any.

Medicine is a guaranteed six figure salary for the rest of your life after a minimum of 7 years post-undergrad study (only four of which aren't paid). There are no other careers that offer this stability.

Business? Anyone who thinks that six figures are easily attainable in the vast world of "business" is wrong. For some lucky souls who probably work the hours of a doctor for the best part of a decade, yes, six figures might be possible.

Law? Again, for some lucky, very smart and hard-working people, a six figure job out of law school is possible. But most law grads don't have those kinds of jobs. Nor do most lawyers make bank. Plus the work of a lawyer is tedious, thankless and unbelievably boring.

Perhaps I'm jaded, but I seriously believe that job security and high salary are what attracts most people to medicine. Of course, everyone has other reasons for medicine too, but one reason is the money.

Yes, medical school is a long, hard path. But so is every career in which you hope to be financially rewarded.

First, there are no guarantees in this world. There are physicians who earn under six digits, and there are physicians who go bankrupt. It happens. Part of the curse of medicine is that you tend to have blinders on for many years to a lot of non-medical education and not a lot of time to learn the skills you need to successfully manage a practice, invest wisely etc.

Second, it's flawed to compare physicians to law, business at large. You need to compare apples to apples. So you need to compare to the lawyers with similar abilities, or folks who chose business over going to med school. Both law and business represent huge ranges of skillsets and abilities. There are folks who get into law school who could never get into med school. There are folks who go into business with a high school education or less. So factoring those field's "averages" into your comparison are silly -- apples and oranges. If you compare to the higher end of law (the folks who could have gone to med school, which probably encompasses most of those you describe as "lucky, smart, hard working"), the salaries are actually quite close (eg associates at large big city law firms start at $160k), but law has a huge edge in that it's a year less tuition/debt and schooling and you start earning a decent salary 4-6 years earlier because of no residency. Looking at business, you have to look at folks who graduate college with top scores (the equivalent of those who could get into med school), and perhaps those who ultimately get sent on to get MBAs by their employes after a few years of work. (again, compare apples to apples). Of that group six figures is not only "possible", but fairly common.

It astounds me that folks sell themselves so short that they compare themselves to folks who do average in other careers because quite frankly those who get into med school are not starting this game with average credentials. Sure you will have to work hard and have some luck in other fields (you will in medicine as well). But no, not every field is as long and hard a path as medicine because very few to no fields require 4 years of school, then 3-5 years of nominal salary residency before you get to "start" your career. This delayed gratification makes medicine fairly unique and again a fairly bad way to maximize income. It is probably a safer field in terms of avoiding layoffs, but hardly guaranteed income. In fact if you look at what is going on in healthcare right now, plus the fact that medicine is the only profession that has lost ground against inflation over the last decade, it is hard to consider it a lock that the salaries will be comparable in a decade to what they are now.
 
thats funny becuase many doctors would say the same thing about medicine. Trust me many lawyers do quite fine for themselves a couple of years out of school.
 
Ignoring the validity of choosing a career purely for monetary reasons, my input:

Law2Doc is right in that you have to compare medicine to the upper division of law / business, because it is less competitive to get into law / business, but where to make that division is anyone's guess...it would be better to be made on an individual basis. i.e. Jack gets into Harvard Med, Yale Law, and Wharton School of Business and has to choose which to attend next year, if he wants money, what does he choose?

That's kind of an individual question. If Jack is conservative (risk-averse, not politically), he will likely choose med school, with a high mean salary / low variance, but heavy front end investment. He will become wealthy, but not rich.

If he is a risk taker, he will choose business, since it inarguably has the best potential to be rich (high variance), even though most businessmen will never make what a doctor will. Keep in mind that most successful ibankers, ect work 80-100 hour weeks on wall street their first few years so they're putting in their hours too. Taken to the extreme, you could say that for the most daring risk takers, any educational degree is unnecessary, since the greatest income potential is entrepreneurship (a la Bill Gates who dropped out of college = no degree) but most of us want a ~75k a year safety net, and education gives us that. That's the real issue, where do you find the balance between the safety net that you're happy with, and the upside that you're happy with?

Law school would be somewhere in between in terms of length of training, level of compensation, and variance, and is also an inlet into politics, which can in turn be an inlet into money.

Keep in mind, besides comparing equally qualified applicants, we should compare applicants with the same goals in mind, that is, it makes no sense to compare the law school grad that became the best civil service lawyer in her state to the b-school grad that became the richest businessman in his state, even though they may have been equally intelligent / qualified / etc.

...i could go on...it's so individual and circumstantial
 
Oh and if you take hours into account, dentists should definitely make the list

3-4 years of training, less competitive to get into
~120k average
~36 hr week, average

Potential for upside with 2-6 yrs of specialization (in the case of 6 years, that comes with an MD degree btw)

Again, lifestyle choice, there's a money vs time to enjoy it balance to consider too
 
Second, it's flawed to compare physicians to law, business at large. You need to compare apples to apples. So you need to compare to the lawyers with similar abilities, or folks who chose business over going to med school. Both law and business represent huge ranges of skillsets and abilities. There are folks who get into law school who could never get into med school. There are folks who go into business with a high school education or less. So factoring those field's "averages" into your comparison are silly -- apples and oranges. If you compare to the higher end of law (the folks who could have gone to med school, which probably encompasses most of those you describe as "lucky, smart, hard working"), the salaries are actually quite close (eg associates at large big city law firms start at $160k), but law has a huge edge in that it's a year less tuition/debt and schooling and you start earning a decent salary 4-6 years earlier because of no residency. Looking at business, you have to look at folks who graduate college with top scores (the equivalent of those who could get into med school), and perhaps those who ultimately get sent on to get MBAs by their employes after a few years of work. (again, compare apples to apples). Of that group six figures is not only "possible", but fairly common.

It astounds me that folks sell themselves so short that they compare themselves to folks who do average in other careers because quite frankly those who get into med school are not starting this game with average credentials. Sure you will have to work hard and have some luck in other fields (you will in medicine as well). * * *

Law2doc, I concur in part and dissent in part (how's that for a "blast from the past" from appellate court opinions...). I agree that medical students are well above average academically, and could do well in law school or business school. However, I do not agree that medical students would necessarily be the most financially successful lawyers or business people. Financial success in those fields requires a different set of skills like marketing, strong interpersonal communication, and a "go getter" money-oriented attitide that medical students do not need to succeed in medical school. Yes, these skills help in running a medical practice, but they are not absolutely needed to earn $150,000 per year. Only a modest amount of attorneys or business people earn that much. According to a survey by my state bar association (Ohio), the average (or was it median?) income of Ohio attorneys is about $80,000 per year.

Transplant medical students into law or business, and I would bet that more than half could not earn as much as they will as doctors.
 
Law2doc, I concur in part and dissent in part (how's that for a "blast from the past" from appellate court opinions...). I agree that medical students are well above average academically, and could do well in law school or business school. However, I do not agree that medical students would necessarily be the most financially successful lawyers or business people. Financial success in those fields requires a different set of skills like marketing, strong interpersonal communication, and a "go getter" money-oriented attitide that medical students do not need to succeed in medical school. Yes, these skills help in running a medical practice, but they are not absolutely needed to earn $150,000 per year. Only a modest amount of attorneys or business people earn that much. According to a survey by my state bar association (Ohio), the average (or was it median?) income of Ohio attorneys is about $80,000 per year.

Transplant medical students into law or business, and I would bet that more than half could not earn as much as they will as doctors.

If you look to the average in a state you probably have to double or triple it, because the folks coming out with the top credentials and into the top law firms pull up the averages, while the folks coming out of the less impressive law schools and into the legal aid/public defender type positions pull it down even more. The potential med students would only be in the former and so the average bears no relation to what they would be earning. You are comparing apples to oranges exactly how I said you shouldn't above.

I would argue, having gone down one road and a good distance down the other, that the skills needed to do well in each field are nearly identical. (You can't separate out academic and financial success in law because they are so intertwined -- the most academically successful end up at the big firms with the high salaries.) Both are professions in service industries with the goal of helping people. You absolutely have to have good interpersonal skills in both law and medicine. Moreso in medicine, actually, because folks are often okay with their lawyer being a little abrasive. You have to be good working on a team, and in a hierarchical organization. You have a ton of paperwork to prepare and a lot of regulations to work within. You absolutely have to be a go-getter in medicine as well as law; the stars in both fields work hard and pull more than their weight. You don't have to be particularly money oriented in either field, just detail oriented. (You will be working for a salary in law at the higher end of the profession, just like medicine, not scrounging for business). The superstars in med school would have made pretty decent law students as well. All you really need in either profession to go far is a good head on your shoulders and a good work ethic. You often fumble through, knowing some stuff, looking up the rest, in both fields.
 
I'm new around SDN, but I couldn't resist joining this discussion. I'm one of that fairly rare breed: an ex-Wall St. person (20 yrs.) who used to make the big bucks, who is now trying to become a doctor. So I think I have some personal perspective on this topic.

The fact is, I've wanted to be a doctor since I was little, but I had some very bad family problems while I was in college that ruined my grades and made med school an impossible dream. I was a lit major, and therefore had absolutely no practical skills--so Wall Street was the only industry I could get into. It wasn't a GOOD job, mind: I had to start at the bottom, as a trading assistant. But I worked hard, impressed a few of the right people, and got myself an MBA, and eventually made it all the way to the job I wanted: portfolio manager. My specialty, ironically, was health care stocks, which made me realize how much I still wanted to be a doctor. So 3 years ago I left it all behind and went back to postbacc to try and make it happen. I'm now on the verge of applying to med school.

But my point wasn't the life story per se: it's about the economics of business vs. medicine. My upfront cost to enter the business world was exactly zero, and I required no special training, nor did I have to pass any tests at the point of entry. (I did later, for licensing requirements, but they were nothing like the MCAT.) I didn't get my MBA (which was full-time) until I'd been working for about 5 years; at that point, it took 2 years and cost me about $30,000. (This was in the early 90's). My very first job out of business school paid well into the six figures--in other words, I made back the cost of business school in a couple of months.

Now, compare that to medicine: beyond the years of undergrad work and toil, assuming you get through the gauntlet of MCAT and med school admissions, you have to lay out about $150K for med school (assuming no scholarships) and then spend 3-7 years working 80 hours a week and getting paid less than a lot of secretaries or sanitation workers. I'm not sure what newly-minted MDs make in private practice, but I'm quite sure it's less than newly-minted MBAs. Doctors' peak earnings are a LOT less than most business people's, except in 1 or 2 very high-paying specialties like neurosurgery. Hell, I was in a relatively low-paying area of Wall St. (equity research/money management), and I made more than most doctors.

My point is simply that there are a lot of great reasons for wanting to go into medicine, but money is simply not one of them. If you look at it from the perspective of a typical college student, who may be choosing a profession mainly based on practical considerations, medicine is not an economically attractive deal. If that student is bright and energetic, they could just as easily make it in business or law, where professional school is shorter and cheaper than med school, and the starting pay is higher as well. All of these professions demand hard work, but medicine demands more than the other two and pays less.

This is such a tough field that you've got to be doing it for love. (Or because you're out of your mind, like me.) The money is better elsewhere.
 
This is 100% wrong. Put another way, you are saying that there is no room for innovation in delivering medicine. There can be no entrepreneurship, you just have to take whatever salary you are given. Flat out, 100% wrong.

What you say is true, on average. If you want some examples to back up my statement, go talk to some doctors that are making significantly more than average.

I don't care to elaborate any further, because I have some ideas that I hope to eventually put to practice (pun intended.)

Agree 100%.

I often see people talking about business, law, banking etc. as better ways to make money. This is just looking at it from the wrong perspective. All of those routes take luck, determination, and a business mindset. And it is far from guaranteed that you will reach your wealthy destination. As pointed out, the vast majority of business ventures fail within the first two years and the financial consequences can be severe. Most investment bankers do not reach the multi-millionaire status. Most lawyers do not work for big firms making mid-six-figure salaries. There are a ton of bankers, businessmen, and lawyers working in every small town and mid sized town and big city in the US that are pulling in a nice 50-100K yearly income. You have to search hard to find any doctor anywhere that is making under 100K (yes, there are some, like a few starting peds or whatever, but it is near 100K and quickly will be after a year or two in practice). Medicine requires a huge up front investment, but it is a much more conservative and secure investment. The chances that your return will be low are about nill, and there are job opportunities virtually anywhere you want to live. Ask the ex-engineer about how he feels when told that the only real opportunities to move up in his specialty area and see a decent increase in income are in Washington DC or Silicon Valley. How's that for job mobility and security?

But that isn't even the point. If you want to make big money, in anything, it isn't going to be through an hourly rate. In that way, medicine is no different from business or law. If you want to break out and become very wealthy, you are going to have to invest properly, whether that is in business ventures, real estate, or a few unlikely stocks. It's the mindset that determines the upward limit, not your profession. Doctors are only limited in exploring this entrepreneurial side by their own self-imposed mindsets. Sure the hours are long, but you can't discount the capital that they have available. That goes a long way in being able to explore a more lucrative opportunity.

So what's the difference, really, in the businessman who puts in ten years of hard work bootstrapping his business and finds himself finally making a pretty hefty income, and the doctor who puts in ten years of hard work investing in his education and, like the businessman, capitalizes on his knowledge and connections to fund a similar business venture? There are two differences, really. The first is that you don't find many doctors who think like that. And the second is that the doctor took a more conservative approach, and is better shielded from the cruel turns of the economy.

Another point: anyone comparing future value of money between a plumber and a doctor after 10 years needs to be realistic about the spread among doctors. There's a huge difference between a FP making 150k and a rads making 350k. And I know that rads (or insert whatever here) are relatively difficult to get into. Just don't fool yourself that becoming that really successful businessman or banker or lawyer is any easier. I know about the time value of money. I can borrow as much per year (well, if loans were unlimited) throughout med school and residency as I was making previously with a good degree, and make more in the future even after making student loan payments. But you have to know yourself. If FP or peds is your calling, be realistic about how that affects student loans and the huge investment your education requires.

And probably the biggest point is that medicine is one area where you might actually get to do something you enjoy while making good money and opening doors. I can think of a few businesses that I'd enjoy being involved in if the pay was really good, but the actual day to day of running a business isn't exactly what I'd call fun. Some may say the same for the day to day of medicine... that's fine... we all have our own preferences.
 
And the second is that the doctor took a more conservative approach, and is better shielded from the cruel turns of the economy.

He is also equally shielded from beneficial turns of the economy though. Which is why if making a lot of money is your goal, medicine is a really bad path. There is a ceiling on upside in medicine. There is no such ceiling in business. Making a lot of money is not about playing it safe. There is a risk - reward balancing act everyone who stakes their claim does, and you often have to be a bit riskier to have a shot at real wealth.

Sorry in advance for the ramble. People keep coming back to arguments about (1) "guaranteed" income, (2) that you still have to work hard in other fields (duh), and (3) that the "average" in other fields is lower. Finally (4) lots of folks on this thread still don't grasp that $100k a decade from now is not worth as much as a somewhat lesser amount earned today (the prior poster gets this, and so has to make up a scenario where the businessman had to spend the same amount of time "bootstrapping" before his business started earning. In some businesses and industries things move faster.
First guaranteed doesn't exist. There are doctors who are earning less than the average, there are doctors who go bankrupt (I have worked with a few in my prior career), there are doctors written up in the NY Times (this past year) who have to sell things on ebay to make ends meet. Most do reasonably well, but there is no such thing as a guaranty in life, and physician incomes are not what they once were. Medicine is the ONLY profession that has been losing ground against inflation over the past decade. It's the ONLY profession I can think of where another industry dictates what they can charge, and then reimburses them.
As for having to work just as hard in other fields, that's sort of the point. If you are willing to put in as much effort in something else as you do in medicine, you will generally do well. That's why folks in medicine actually have these discussions -- they have a choice in which direction to funnel their intensity. Doing well in another field might be huge if there is no ceiling (as their is with a medicine salary) in income and if the economy cooperates. Finally, as I've had to repeat too often in this thread, looking at "average" across groups of not similarly situated individuals is meaningless -- it's an apples and oranges comparison. The average credentialed med student is a better than average credentialed almost anything else. So yeah, you can play it safe and do medicine "for the money" and earn an ever declining income dictated by the insurance company, or you can take bigger risk and funnel the same intensity into a field where your income is tied only to the value you add or the money you generate. If you are truly doing it for the money, I submit that you would choose the latter.
 
He is also equally shielded from beneficial turns of the economy though. Which is why if making a lot of money is your goal, medicine is a really bad path. There is a ceiling on upside in medicine. There is no such ceiling in business. Making a lot of money is not about playing it safe. There is a risk - reward balancing act everyone who stakes their claim does, and you often have to be a bit riskier to have a shot at real wealth.
I think you missed about 90% of my post. Medicine isn't where the doctor can strike gold, it's the safety net that isn't there in other fields. The only ceiling on income in medicine is the salary of being an employee or being paid hourly for your work. If you want to be a businessman, then just like any other aspect of business there are far fewer limits on income. Who says that private practice has to be limited to the patients you see and bill? Just as is the case with a hardware store, you can think bigger; why not manage a group of doctors and allied health professionals at a clinic you start that sees many times more patients than you could alone? Risky you say? No more so than any of the other routes to making lots of money described in this thread. There are opportunities in running clinics, investing in real estate, plugging in to medical technology, providing educational material, and countless other tangents to actually practicing medicine. The ceiling you keep speaking of does not exist if you do not want it to, and there is absolutely no reason why a physician can't take advantage of good upturns in the economy. However, I still stand by my statement that they are relatively shielded from the cruel downturns. There will always be good demand, and while pay may not outstrip inflation, the net will always be comfortably above poverty.

As far as comparing the average medical student to the average business/law/whatever student, I'll have to disagree with you. It may be true that the average intelligence is higher in the medical field, but that isn't what makes someone a millionaire in the business or banking world. It's charisma, relentlessness, sometimes ruthlessness, perhaps connections, intuition, etc. The skills do not overlap very well, which is why I believe the saying that doctors make lousy businessmen is somewhat accurate.

But if you have the qualities necessary to succeed in business, then it really doesn't matter which primary career path you choose... you'll find and exploit opportunities along the way to become successful.

So yeah, you can play it safe and do medicine "for the money" and earn an ever declining income dictated by the insurance company, or you can take bigger risk and funnel the same intensity into a field where your income is tied only to the value you add or the money you generate. If you are truly doing it for the money, I submit that you would choose the latter.
Or, as I and other keep trying to stress, you can do both. Medicine gives you a net, and it gives you capital from which to pursue other opportunities. You can invest in high risk stocks and still have some money in bonds, you know.

If you are absolutely hellbent on becoming the worlds richest man, then I agree... you'd probably be better off going for broke in the business world. Probably straight out of high school. But on the flipside, you don't have to view medicine as locking you into a pay-for-fee career. It can be a component of your total endeavors, a stepping stone, a door opener, a cash provider, a safety net, and is all of those things while being flexible in location, high in demand, relatively protected from economic collapse, and satisfying intellectually and morally to boot.

I doubt you can say the same about any other path.
 
lots of folks on this thread still don't grasp that $100k a decade from now is not worth as much as a somewhat lesser amount earned today

Hear, hear. It's great to come across someone who understands the "time value of money"! (Simply put, it's the idea that a dollar you'll get tomorrow is worth less than a dollar you have today--because if you did have that dollar today, you could put it in the bank and earn interest on it.) So not only is $100K earned in the future worth less than that now, any upfront expenses you have to incur--such as the hefty med school tuition to which I referred--cost you MORE than if you were able to incur those same expenses at a later date. So the "present value" of a doctor's future earnings (the value adjusted to account for when the money will be earned) will always be less than another professional's, because he or she had to incur much larger upfront expenses.

And there's another factor no one else seems to be commenting on: "opportunity cost." That means that you are earning less money doing a particular thing, when you could be making more elsewhere. The point at which this comes into play is residency. During that period, a physician's earnings are capped at an artificially low level compared to what that doctor could earn doing almost any other job; the lost earnings are opportunity cost. Even if you measure that cost only in terms of what a post-residency MD should earn, it's at least $100,000 per year during most residencies. From an economist's point of view, opportunity cost is just as real as if you paid the money out of your own pocket; and if you look at it that way, it's actually more than med school tuition! What other profession takes people who have already GRADUATED from professional school and then makes them wage slaves for another 3 to 7 years? No other that I know of; in all the other cases, professional school graduates start making reasonable money pretty much immediately.

As I said in my earlier post, none of this means that we shouldn't want to become physicians; after all, I want it myself so much that I left a much higher-paying job. But this profession does not come out looking favorable on economic grounds. Anyone who chooses medicine as a career is (knowingly or not) accepting a degree of economic sacrifice along with that choice.
 
I think most of you would be amazed at what you can make in the "blue-collar" trades.

Look at the Davis-Bacon wages in this link that must be paid on most federal/state construction contracts. The fringe is extra hourly wage instead of benefits. So for example a Mason makes $54/hr wage + $21/hr fringe = $75/hr.

Overtime is very common and paid at 1.5 wage. There is no overtime on the fringe. So if you were working 60hrs a week (common) a mason would make about $4500/week.

Not to bad for completing a paid apprenticeship right out of high school. There are a lot of jobs like this out there, at least where I live. These are the rates for Queens, NY since so many of you are obsessed with the city. To find the wages in your neck of the woods, google "davis bacon rates".

For those of you to lazy to follow the link:
A crane operater makes $68/hr + $26/hr fringe = $94/hr.
An ironworker makes $38/hr + $49/hr fringe = $87/hr.
A diver makes $50/hr +$30/hr fringe = $80/hr.

With overtime, there is potential to make great money on these jobs. I know someone working on a contract for the next 2 monthes 7 days a week, 12 hours a day. Do the math.

These are for NY. They are "prevailing wages" meant to reflect union scale. They MUST be paid on non-union contracts.
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=Davis-Bacon&docid=NY20080003



Even in my neck of the woods (more average region, little union presence), they are still mostly $50/hr+ total. The crane/diver types are still $70/hr+. I have many friends working on Davis Bacon jobs. They never had to go into debt, move into another state, or look at books for 10 years after high school.

If you get experience and become a successfull contracter, you will make more money than anyone in medicine. Building contracts are huge. A couple of my friends dads are bigtime contracters and they are truly RICH. As in millions per year.

THERE ARE MANY OTHER WAYS TO MAKE A GOOD LIVING.
 
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My opportunity cost for going to med school (residency included) vs. staying in my previous career is right at a cool million. Lots of money. Even so, there are many many areas in medicine where that opportunity cost can be repaid in around five years, some less, even granting my previous career the typical salary increases from raises, promotions, and job swapping (I figured two in the 7-9 year med school journey), which in total would have added around 50K to my salary at the time I entered med school. So for me at least, it's a break even proposition at about 15 years out. With another 25 or so productive years beyond that, the comparison isn't even close.

Now, the above isn't the case if you look at FP, IM, peds, etc. You have to be realistic going in about where your interests truly lie, and make an honest assessment of your potential. Fortunately for me and many others, there are dozens of fields within medicine that are extremely interesting to me, were so at the outset, and pay plenty well enough for me to not have great concerns about shooting myself in the foot. I didn't enter medicine to get rich, but I wouldn't have made the move if I though it would be financial suicide.

And my analysis assumes the longest residency, no moonlighting, no debt forgiveness or other types of bonuses after residency completion, below starting salaries in many fields, absolutely no physician reimbursement increases for the next forty years, and some very favorable assumptions about my previous career.

Unless you are already making more than 100K in your current career and/or have significant potential for serious raises, or you have a pretty solid career and your calling is peds, you probably won't come out behind after switching to medicine. Sure, it may take you a while to pass that 60/hr plumber, but it will happen. Just be realistic about the timeline involved.

Besides, as I've pointed out, you can open doors anywhere you go. As an engineer, there were always going to be opportunities to venture into the world of business and entrepreneurship, but those doors won't close just because I've done somewhat of a U-turn. ;) In fact, I may find that there are now doors open for medical ventures, engineering ventures, and combinations of the two that many other people may not have. Not to mention that I'll eventually have greater liquid capital with which to pursue them, and much much greater fundraising ability a bit sooner than "eventually."

Most of all, I'll enjoy the job more, regardless of the paycheck, which is ultimately the bottom line. If I don't net one penny more in my lifetime, I'll still be one happy SOB. Being able to provide more for my family along the way would be a nice bonus.
 
Or, as I and other keep trying to stress, you can do both. Medicine gives you a net, and it gives you capital from which to pursue other opportunities. You can invest in high risk stocks and still have some money in bonds, you know.

Disagree. As I and others have also stressed, medicine is a full-time job, and financial services is also a full time job. Folks who try to squeeze either discipline into a few hours a week do badly at it. Moreso if you want to get involved in high risk stuff, where doing your homework is even more critical.
 
As far as comparing the average medical student to the average business/law/whatever student, I'll have to disagree with you. It may be true that the average intelligence is higher in the medical field, but that isn't what makes someone a millionaire in the business or banking world. It's charisma, relentlessness, sometimes ruthlessness, perhaps connections, intuition, etc. The skills do not overlap very well, which is why I believe the saying that doctors make lousy businessmen is somewhat accurate.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this. Having come from a business oriented law practice and worked closely with business types, banking types and law types on a daily basis (and having been involved in hiring of individuals and engaging of business firms), and now working closely with physicians, I see an impressive overlap of skills. I continue to submit that the hardworking types with good heads on their shoulders will thrive in whichever of these paths they choose. Things like charisma and intuition are equally valued in medicine, and things like ruthlessness don't get you as far in real life as they do in the movies. It's a flawed Hollywood driven stereotype of businessman or lawyer that actually doesn't rise to the top in most cases.
 
My opportunity cost for going to med school (residency included) vs. staying in my previous career is right at a cool million. [...] So for me at least, it's a break even proposition at about 15 years out.

My opportunity cost will be over $4 million, and there's no way I'm ever making that back. I may not even EARN $4 million in the entire time that I practice medicine. (I'm going to be 50 when I graduate from med school, if I'm lucky enough to get in.)
 
Wow, you're leaving a seriously nice career! At least no one will ever question your motivations... ever. :thumbup:

You are right though that opportunity cost is something a lot of people need to take a close look at. For the average fresh out of college med student, it's hard to mess up though unless they had a shoe-in to a great paying alternative career. For the 30 year olds that have been working for a while, you need to take a close look at your current income, interests in specialty fields, and potential to actually match into them to make sure you don't mess up. If you're 40 and think FP is your calling, then you can either look at it as messing up or being financially able to do what you love. ;)
 
I continue to submit that the hardworking types with good heads on their shoulders will thrive in whichever of these paths they choose. Things like charisma and intuition are equally valued in medicine, and things like ruthlessness don't get you as far in real life as they do in the movies. It's a flawed Hollywood driven stereotype of businessman or lawyer that actually doesn't rise to the top in most cases.

I somewhat disagree with the premise that just because you do well in medicine that means you can do well in law/buisness vice versa.

As a general rule yes if you are hard working you will get far. But in my experience many "science" types are NOT VERY GOOD WRITERS or outgoing and charismatic. What makes one person a good lawyer or buisnessman does not necessairly make one a good physician. Law school is very different then medical school imo. I say this because most doctors don't need to know how to write well to carry their career far, whereas most lawyers need to be fairly efficent at legal writing.

That being said there are plenty of careers out there that make good money that do not require much schooling. I was suprised to learn that journey level seattle police officers were making over 90K a year. Keep in mind these people don't have all the debt med students have. King County police officers in the state of Washington make upwards of 150K a year after overtime. Keep in mind many of these people only have highschool educations!!!

In all honesty it gave me a sick feeling in my stomach knowing that I have spent the past 8 years in school while people with highschool educations make more then me. I am happy with the career choices I have made, but if you are in medicine for just MONEY you are in for a real treat. Many professionals make good money doing 1/4 the work doctors do.

Sure medicine is a great career, but if you want money, I think anyone who is dedicated and motivated enough can find an easier path. Like Law2Doc already stated, the time value of money is something often overlooked.
 
And there are a lot of police officers working for 50K, and a lot of highway patrol officers scraping by on under 30K. I think it's the variation in other fields that really makes medicine different. While there are a few doctors that can't seem to find a job, or are bankrupt because they bought a 1 mil house plus trimmings on a 150K salary, the vast vast vast majority can find work anywhere in the country, from city to the most rural, and are almost guaranteed 100K or better if their salary means anything at all to them. On the other hand, there are plenty of bankrupt or struggling lawyers and businessmen out there, and a horde of others working very hard to make 50K or 70K. And there might be some rich masons, but of the few I know this is far from the case. Sounds like the Washington cops, or the silicon valley engineers... you need to be in the right place to make really good money.

I don't disagree with anyone who says that there are other ways to make more money than in medicine. Some might even be a lot easier if you happen to have the connections, capital, and/or knack for business. But I can't think of many (any?) others that offers the same combination of near guaranteed very good pay, extreme job mobility, extreme job security, and longevity in the career (how many 70 year old brick masons are there really?). And I think that is the real allure of medicine for a lot of young people. Not the thought of being a multi-billionaire, but rather it being a very conservative investment, wherein when you put in your dues you can expect a comfortable lifestyle and good security.
 
As a general rule yes if you are hard working you will get far. But in my experience many "science" types are NOT VERY GOOD WRITERS or outgoing and charismatic. What makes one person a good lawyer or buisnessman does not necessairly make one a good physician. Law school is very different then medical school imo. I say this because most doctors don't need to know how to write well to carry their career far, whereas most lawyers need to be fairly efficent at legal writing.

EXACTLY. The majority of medical students were still natural sciences students as undergraduates, and the wage-earning potential for someone with a BS in the natural sciences is, overall, pretty dismal. You need a PhD, or other advanced degree to get even close to what is possible with medicine. You think that a newly-minted BS in biochem with a 3.7 GPA will get hired to work on Wall Street? Don't make me laugh....
 
I somewhat disagree with the premise that just because you do well in medicine that means you can do well in law/buisness vice versa.

As a general rule yes if you are hard working you will get far. But in my experience many "science" types are NOT VERY GOOD WRITERS or outgoing and charismatic. What makes one person a good lawyer or buisnessman does not necessairly make one a good physician. Law school is very different then medical school imo. I say this because most doctors don't need to know how to write well to carry their career far, whereas most lawyers need to be fairly efficent at legal writing.
.

This echoes the point I made earlier: while good oral and written communication skills are helpful for physicians, they are not absolutely necessary in order for a physician to make $150k plus. Many doctors can barely speak English but they can and do make that much or more. However, they would not stand a chance in law or on Wall Street. Even if they could get a job (a BIG if), they would be eaten alive.
 
As a general rule yes if you are hard working you will get far. But in my experience many "science" types are NOT VERY GOOD WRITERS or outgoing and charismatic. What makes one person a good lawyer or buisnessman does not necessairly make one a good physician. Law school is very different then medical school imo. I say this because most doctors don't need to know how to write well to carry their career far, whereas most lawyers need to be fairly efficent at legal writing.

I would suggest that the folks who are strictly science types who are not good writers and not charismatic do not go as far in medicine as their counterparts who have these skills. They do fine in research, but that is a different field from practicing medicine. These are absolutely skills necessary in medicine. This is a personal service profession just like law, and the skillset that enables you to go far is identical. Will someone who doesn't have these skills but still manages to get through med school and the boards get a primary care job in a less competitive geographic area notwithstanding his limitations? Probably, given the current shortage. But this isn't the person who "does well" in the profession and isn't the person who has many choices in the field. Probably still earns six digits, because that is a function of the years of training involved (again $100k many years from now isn't worth that in today's dollars), but I think it's inaccurate to suggest that "doctors don't need to know how to write well to carry their career far". You will be reading, writing and speaking in medicine far more than you know if you expect to excel.

For example, I did far more writing and required more presentation skills in med school than I ever did in law school. And you work far more closely with a team, with superiors, and get patient contact far more than you do in law school or in early law firm life. The science aspects of medicine are foundation, not the day to day workings. Which is why after second year they stop teaching it and focus on teaching you how to write notes, present patients, stay organized, and work directly with people. Much like law, the key to being a good doctor is to listen to patients (clients). Charisma, empathy, being outgoing, and able to draw out information is huge in medicine. Probably more than law because some info you need in medicine is personal and not something someone is likely to tell you right off the bat. You serve as counselor and advisor in both roles. And almost never play the role of scientist outside of research, which again, is a different, albeit overlapping, field from being a doctor.

Part of the reason med schools started taking non-science majors in the 1980s is because of the realization that scientists did not always make the best doctors. They were being forced to master skillsets they didn't have, and it was realized that it is often easier to teach a non-scientist to be a scientist than to teach a scientist to be charismatic, outgoing, compassionate, and other interpersonal skills. So yeah, saying "science types" don't make good lawyers or businessmen is true, but they often don't make good doctors either (at least according to basic admissions notions).
 
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My opportunity cost will be over $4 million, and there's no way I'm ever making that back. I may not even EARN $4 million in the entire time that I practice medicine. (I'm going to be 50 when I graduate from med school, if I'm lucky enough to get in.)

Opportunity cost, schmopportunity cost. You're in it for the right reasons student1799. Plus, how do you like the prospects of brokering on wall st. right now???!! The market sucks, and the dollar is dropping...stagflation city.:eek: You'd probably have to fight for your job in finance anyway.

Bottom line is, you can't look at your own life like an economist looks at GNP. The value of family, job satisfaction, and myriad other factors will ultimately trump the $$$ if you live a life with any meaning at all. Plus, it's not like medicine is equivalent to becoming a nun. Hell, you my even get to go to Red Lobster once in a while.
 
Try reading "The Millionaire Next Door".
It describes people from varied backgrounds and how they achieved wealth. It pretty much all boils down to living below your means and investing a substantial amount in things you understand.

As Law2Doc said, you can become wealthy in almost anything if you invest wisely; and by this I don't mean you luck out and get into a Google IPO with your life savings. It takes time and discipline. Not a very exciting concept, that's why you won't hear it talked about as much as the latest method to get rich quick.

It's not what you do that makes you wealthy; it's what you do with the money you earn.

+1 for this book. Quite eye opening. The message I took away from it was "Find something you are passionate about and you can make plenty of money doing it. Keep that money by not doing stupid stuff with it like your broke friends"
 
i have read many posts with people saying something like the following:

"Becoming a doctor is a long, difficult process. It can't be just about the money. If it's the money you're after, then there are other careers to take that require less studying time, debt, sacrifice" etc.

Lots of people have said this. All of them also left out an alternative career option to take. I mean one where you study less years and material than medical school but make a similar amount of money. I keep waiting for someone to write "if you're after money, then you can do....instead" When will someone suggest these ideas?? haha.

Read "The millionaire next door."

They have whole chapter devoted to who actually makes money in America and suggested professions.
 
You will be reading, writing and speaking in medicine far more than you know if you expect to excel.

You are right in the sense that you need some basic competency in english to be a doctor, but that is it!! Beyond basic writing and oral skills I don't think most doctors are on the same level as those who go into professions like law/buisness. Plenty of FMG do well in medicine, and they hardly even speak a lick of english.

The vast majority of medical students are not good writers or very outgoing. Maybe some non trads are, but the vast majority of those entering medicine came from the natural sciences. Alot of engineers to.
 
I would suggest that the folks who are strictly science types who are not good writers and not charismatic do not go as far in medicine as their counterparts who have these skills.
I'll give you that much. People that lack these skills, either by being terrible at English (foreign or otherwise) or being a supergeek without the people skills to capitalize on their intelligence in the business arena, probably don't go far in medicine. i.e., these are unlikely to be the FP doctors with a booming half-mil practice, or the derm doc with side ventures into everything in the world, or the rads doc hooked in to some lucrative side deals, or the orthopod working on implant design with a manufacturer. But all of those people are doing way above average for their respective fields. They are the ones that would have done well in business, law, finance, whatever.

What a few of us are trying to say is that you can still be the most awkward super-goob in the world, but if you have brains and were accepted to med school, it's quite likely that you can hum along at the average pay in many specialties... often 200-300K. I know a lot of them. Those same people trying to cut it in business, law, finance... would be flat broke or struggling to make ends-meet.
 
I could take this thread, copy it, and post it on another other forum and it would apply, to law, engineering, business, etc. . . Money does not appear, you have to go get it, sometimes you have to give away your services for next to nothing to get started.

I've been plodding through life as a solo attorney for 8 years, and one client changed it all around, he was dirt poor and had stepped into it good, but I needed money, and he had a little, but a little sometimes is better than none, little did I know, he had a lot of friends, and friends with money and connections. After winning his case, I went from rags to riches over night. (winning after he was told it was unwinable by a lot of lawyers in bigger firms).

Becoming successful is part guts, part street smarts, part insomiac, part luck, and 50% fortune teller. None of this will mean a thing unless you know your business, and project to others that you love what you do.
 
On the other hand, there are plenty of bankrupt or struggling lawyers and businessmen out there, and a horde of others working very hard to make 50K or 70K. And there might be some rich masons, but of the few I know this is far from the case. Sounds like the Washington cops, or the silicon valley engineers... you need to be in the right place to make really good money.

The only reason there are these hordes of business/law types struggling is because virtually ANY college graduate can pursue law/business. I'm sorry, but if you have a 2.9 in criminal justice from State U, you do not project ambition.

As far as the rich mason goes... you're right, they're not rich. But the wages I posted is what they make. The union and davis bacon work is there, and not terribly difficult to get. I know a lot of people in the "trades" and I'd guess 2/3's of them are union or davis bacon or successfully self-employed. The ones that aren't are the types that can't pass drug tests or keep a job for more than 2 weeks.
 
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