MSW vs. PsyD?

randomgrl333 · Jul 8, 2008

I've read through many old posts and haven't quite found the answer to my question. If it's out there and I'm being redundant, I apologize.

I graduated with a BA in Psychology in 2007 and have since been trying to decide between applying to MSW and PsyD programs. My GPA was 3.8 and my GRE score was 1210. I'm not entirely sure how competitive of an applicant I am, and I'm also not sure which program will better suit me in the long run.

I'm looking to become a counselor in a University Health Center. I've searched many University websites and found a mix of PhD, PsyD, and LCSWs holding this position. I realize this is a competitive field, so I expect to hold other jobs prior to attaining this goal. I'm interested in family and couples therapy, school counseling (not testing, more guidance counselor type work), and probably many other fields I have yet to consider.

While I'm certainly not going into this field for the money, I would like to be able to get a degree that will afford me the ability to pay off my loans and sustain a modest lifestyle.

I prefer the coursework found in most PsyD programs and I feel that these programs would better prepare me for individual counseling, but are the extra years in school and loans worth it? Can I do what I want to do as an LCSW? Will I feel limited by this degree? Will an MSW program equip me to open a private practice? I plan on living in either Massachusetts, California, or possibly Washington State.

My second set of questions are about gaining experience and the application process. Any recommendations for other experience I can gain now to help with the application process and to solidify that I want to do this for the rest of my life? I'm currently working as a Mental Health Specialist at a residential ABA (Applied Behavior Analysis) program. It's been a great experience, but mostly I've just learned that I don't want to do ABA work the rest of my life. I'm much more interested in talk therapy.

Once I figure out where I want to apply, how do I go about finding programs that suit my interest? I've tried googling a few grad school search engines, but are there particular sites or books that give detailed descriptions?

Thanks in advance for any and all information!

thepsychgeek · Jul 9, 2008

See the "degree question" a few posts below by max, it should get you started a little.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=540049

usdenick · Jul 11, 2008

I agree with thepsychgeek, that that other article will have a lot of insight for you. I do have some personal opinions on your situation. I have not completed an MSW or PsyD degree, but did consider both of them and I'll share with you why I decided the MSW was a better fit than the PsyD or PhD. Keep in mind these are just my two cents and my reasoning for why I am going to choose the MSW over the Phd or PsyD. I don't know the details of your situation, so I'm sure a lot will not apply to you, but I thought I would share my situation anyway.

I'm assuming you have looked at the price tags on the PsyD programs, many of them seem to be quite a bit more expensive than the PhD programs or are from much less prestigious schools. I was mainly looking at PhD programs since they seemed to be more flexible with financial aid or from better-ranked psychology departments. I feel that if you are going to go and get that doctorate, you may as well get it from a highly regarded school. This will better equip you with the credentials and connections to get research and teaching jobs should you want them after you get your PhD degree (unless you want to teach in rural areas, where the graduate program you attended may not be as important in getting an academic/teaching job). Most highly-ranked PhD and PsyD programs (there is really only one highly ranked PsyD program, Rutgers) are also much better about financial aid. They are also VERY competitive to get in to and more rigorous/more emphasis on research.

From your post, however, I take it that you don't really have any interested in being an academic/teacher/researcher. I'm the same way and this is finally what made me realize that the doctoral route would be wrong for me. Most PhD programs I looked at stated that they prepared people for being a researcher, scientist and teacher. I realized that I would be spending six years of my life and a good 2+ would just be preparing me to be a scientist and academic. No doubt great training, but not for someone who really just wants to be a clinician and work with people in various regards.

I have the utmost respect for those that are pursuing Doctorates. However, in the end, I realized that I would not fit in with them: Most of them would probably be striving towards working in academia (at least part-time), while I really want to actually practice. In an MSW program I would be in a program that prepared me for that, had connections to help me get started in that field and was learning with students that were gearing up for that as well.
No doubt a Dr. before your name would help you in ANY job search. Keep in mind, though, that a relevant and competent work record may be as, or even more, convincing than a Doctorate. In six years you could complete one Dr. degree or get an MSW AND four years of great real-world work experience (hopefully working yourself up and closer and closer to your job goals). I don't have any experience working in the field however, so perhaps I'm not the best person to comment on this. Could you perhaps ask people working in the field what they would recommend to you? Also, would you be terribly disappointed if you didn't get this counseling job, but got one working in another setting? You can certainly get a lot of mental health counseling jobs, even if you can't get that very competitive one. However, they same may be said for a PhD who is up against a MSW with a lot of experience...

Certainly a PhD or PsyD would prepare you very well for being a mental health practitioner (probably much better than an MSW alone would), but you can also seek out a MSW program that has a strong clinical track AND you can always take post-graduate courses and training in mental health counseling.

If I was only interested in counseling, like you are, I might have found the decision somewhat harder. But, I am also interested in some of the jobs that social workers do that PhDs do not. Also, I do not want to become an academic nor do I want to spend years training to be one.

I would highly recommend researching the various programs you are interested in. Research the price tag, average time to complete and financial aid.

Loooong post, I know, but I had a lot to say!

WannaBeDrMe · Jul 22, 2008

Ok, well, I'm an MSW applying to PsyD programs this fall. I applied to 1 PsyD the first time and was waitlisted @ my top choice. I had chosen it b/c it aligned perfectly with my research at the time and funding was available. Had I gotten off the waitlist, I would have spent less money there than on my MSW.

My MSW cost me somewhere around $60000 at a state university. I had an assistanceship but it did not even cover gas money to/from my internship site. We took 15-17 hours per semester with a ton of busy work and my internship was 40 hours a week on top of t hat w/a commute time of at least 3 hrs per day. I do not know ANYONE who got a full ride for their MSW. In fact, there was only one assistanceship higher than mine and it was double-time and paid 2x as much per month.

Now, post-MSW, I find that I am 1 of 9 billion (seems like it) people in a state where doctoral level clinicians are very rare. RESEARCH YOUR INTENDED MARKET. Here, if I had my PsyD right now (which I would have had if I would have applied to more than 1 program and pursued that option before MSW), I would be writing my own check anywhere.

Now, I am competing with clinicians who have 20 years more experience than myself... all for the same jobs. I am watching my cohort-mates struggle and job hop (some have 3-4 per year). I am watching my field supervisor (TOP MSW school graduate, top of her class 25 years ago) barely make enough to feed her kids so she took another job in private practice.

Additionally, I struggle with being one of the rare MSW who LOVE research. I stay on top of as much as humanly possible. When I'm at conferences/trainings, I end up connecting (usually) only with the presenter. The questions my colleagues ask SCARE me at how much they just don't know. I'm not saying I know everything, because I don't, but I realized that I hit my ceiling in this state, with this group of colleagues, because we just have different end goals.

I have a NEED to know as much as possible. I don't want to do therapy everyday for the rest of my life and every intake/assessment job I apply for, I'm told I'm over qualified OR worse, told nothing at all and just set aside.

So, that's the flip side of this turkey. I want my PsyD so I can go on to do a very formal, respected internship and post-doc in clinical neuro or child neuro and I want to work in testing, assessments, diagnostics, forensics, etc. I do NOT want to sit and do therapy every week. I am zero percent interested in working in child protective services (which in my state, all of these are MSW level workers).

It turns out that the things I've always wanted to do, I can NOT do with my MSW. I was told I could... by professors (not my psych profs, they were always against me going MSW)... by materials on the web... but in reality, the market does not support MSW's doing cool stuff unless they are the 1 in 10,000 who were able to secure a niche coming straight out of school. There are very few, if any, LCSW's positions open in the Uni of NC system. I check... on the regular... and they are almost always hiring doctoral level clinicians. Even then, it's not usually even EdD's for counselors... it's almost always PhD's and PsyD's of clinical psych w/EXPERIENCE in the setting.

That being said, your GPA is great. It is where it needs to be... your GRE's are a little low for PsyD funded programs. If you could pull your GRE's up 100-200 pts (I know, it's a lot, but it's worth a shot), you would be very competitive. Do you have any research experience? Do you have a good idea of what you want to do within the subfield of university counseling? Eating disorders is a good niche for that population. Now, and why I wanted to go that route, I think diagnostics and assessments are going to be so so so so much more important than ever... that's why I thought a psychiatric social worker would be perfect to catch the subtle hints @ psychosis/warning signs... the hiring committees, not so much.

Just apply to both, there are great fully funded PsyD programs that would cost you less than a typical MSW program but it isn't just the cost of the program you need to consider, as the others said, can you do all that you need to do with the MSW?

The mental health specialist is a good enough position. It might look weird if you went hopping around trying all different aspects... or it might look weird that you did that the whole time, my point is, that sort of stuff is unpredictable and your best offense is to know what you want and demand it from the programs (politely of course)... don't shotgun applications, really take a look at the profs, the students, the graduates, the internships they land, read through their course descriptions (that can tell you a LOT).... I don't pay as much attention to statistics and rankings but I do care about how they are generally perceived by their peers...

ok, this is long, gotta run, but good luck with your decision, there is NOTHING wrong w/being a social worker and I will proudly keep my LCSW (if I ever earn it) until the day I become a PsyD... even then, I will still keep my MSW proudly displayed and pay my NASW dues on the regular...

good luck to you!

mdm1117 · May 12, 2009

Hi randomgrl333,

Can I ask what route you chose? I am also in the same predicament this year. I am trying to choose between the MSW at University of Chicago and the PsyD at Adler. I'm not sure if it's worth being in debt over $120,000 after the PsyD. It seems that you can do pretty much the same thing with an MSW, except testing...

randomgrl333 said:
I've read through many old posts and haven't quite found the answer to my question. If it's out there and I'm being redundant, I apologize.

I graduated with a BA in Psychology in 2007 and have since been trying to decide between applying to MSW and PsyD programs. My GPA was 3.8 and my GRE score was 1210. I'm not entirely sure how competitive of an applicant I am, and I'm also not sure which program will better suit me in the long run.

I'm looking to become a counselor in a University Health Center. I've searched many University websites and found a mix of PhD, PsyD, and LCSWs holding this position. I realize this is a competitive field, so I expect to hold other jobs prior to attaining this goal. I'm interested in family and couples therapy, school counseling (not testing, more guidance counselor type work), and probably many other fields I have yet to consider.

While I'm certainly not going into this field for the money, I would like to be able to get a degree that will afford me the ability to pay off my loans and sustain a modest lifestyle.

I prefer the coursework found in most PsyD programs and I feel that these programs would better prepare me for individual counseling, but are the extra years in school and loans worth it? Can I do what I want to do as an LCSW? Will I feel limited by this degree? Will an MSW program equip me to open a private practice? I plan on living in either Massachusetts, California, or possibly Washington State.

My second set of questions are about gaining experience and the application process. Any recommendations for other experience I can gain now to help with the application process and to solidify that I want to do this for the rest of my life? I'm currently working as a Mental Health Specialist at a residential ABA (Applied Behavior Analysis) program. It's been a great experience, but mostly I've just learned that I don't want to do ABA work the rest of my life. I'm much more interested in talk therapy.

Once I figure out where I want to apply, how do I go about finding programs that suit my interest? I've tried googling a few grad school search engines, but are there particular sites or books that give detailed descriptions?

Thanks in advance for any and all information!

GradStudent87 · May 12, 2009

Well I don't know enough about how it works in the real world either because I am also kind of in the same position of trying to decide where to go this year. I did not get accepted into any doctoral programs but I am deciding between a MHC degree which would allow me to be licensed or a general master's which I feel is more geared toward eventually applying for a doctoral program. I know that I definitely want to do clinical work but am undecided whether Academia/Teaching would be an interest of mine (probably not teaching but maybe doing research) If you want to do purely clinical work without the other stuff Social Workers do but don't want to pay all the money for a doctoral degree why not consider the MHC degree? Also in defense of going for a doctorate, i'm not sure that most PsyD students have career interestes in academia, PhD's students maybe but most PsyD students from what i've heard have very little interest in academia and do the research in the PsyD program(which from what i've heard is less intensive then PhD programs) just because they feel it will make them better clinicians. That's part of why I want to go to a PsyD program because I feel research is important even though I have no real interest in academia. Even balanced PhD's probably prepare people more for clinical work then for academic positions although yes you will hve to do a lot of research in the program I know of some even PhD programs where 90%(I think it was city university) of the graduates ended up doing clinical work as a career. The point of being the scientist in many cases is to enhance the practitioner and I'm not saying one has to do research to be a good clinician but I don't think all people that do research have a goal to be in academia.

randomgrl333 · May 12, 2009

After many long months of deliberation, I decided to apply to MSW programs. I checked lots of job postings and most jobs, especially in this economy (yes, it's a factor, of course), I wanted required an MSW (or an LCSW). While I may, someday, go for a PsyD, it seemed like a lot of time and money to invest when I could get to where I want to go with an MSW (LCSW). At first I grieved the loss of the clinical focus of a PsyD, but after doing even more months of research, I managed to find some good clinically-focused MSW programs.

This next part doesn't really address your question, but it's a follow-up to the outcome of my original post, so maybe it will be of use to someone someday.

I was accepted to all of the schools to which I applied (Simmons, Boston College, Boston University, San Francisco State, UC Berkeley) and had it narrowed down to Boston University and UC Berkeley until just last week. BU has a much stronger clinical focus, but UC Berkeley has a great reputation and considering I plan to settle in the Bay Area, networking during grad school is something to consider...

After revisiting this whole process and remembering where I was a year ago (deciding between MSW vs. PsyD), I realized how lucky I am to have found a program that matches my interests so perfectly. BU captures everything I wanted in a PsyD program, but with the price tag and versatility of an MSW. Needless to say, I'll be attending Boston University in the Fall to earn my MSW. I plan to go for licensure after graduation.

I'd be happy to answer any other questions you have about this whole process!

gkatzzie · Dec 17, 2009

Hi randomgrl,

Your advice has been really helpful to me. I am curious, though, why you did not apply to NYU given your desire for a strong clinical focus? NYU seems like an obvious choice for this path, so I'm curious to know what made you decide not to even apply there. I'm also applying to Berkeley and San Fran State cause I'd like to end up in the Bay Area as well....what was your though process in deciding on BU as opposed to Berkeley?

Thanks for all your insight, and hope you're enjoying BU!

randomgrl333 said:
After many long months of deliberation, I decided to apply to MSW programs. I checked lots of job postings and most jobs, especially in this economy (yes, it's a factor, of course), I wanted required an MSW (or an LCSW). While I may, someday, go for a PsyD, it seemed like a lot of time and money to invest when I could get to where I want to go with an MSW (LCSW). At first I grieved the loss of the clinical focus of a PsyD, but after doing even more months of research, I managed to find some good clinically-focused MSW programs.

This next part doesn't really address your question, but it's a follow-up to the outcome of my original post, so maybe it will be of use to someone someday.

I was accepted to all of the schools to which I applied (Simmons, Boston College, Boston University, San Francisco State, UC Berkeley) and had it narrowed down to Boston University and UC Berkeley until just last week. BU has a much stronger clinical focus, but UC Berkeley has a great reputation and considering I plan to settle in the Bay Area, networking during grad school is something to consider...

After revisiting this whole process and remembering where I was a year ago (deciding between MSW vs. PsyD), I realized how lucky I am to have found a program that matches my interests so perfectly. BU captures everything I wanted in a PsyD program, but with the price tag and versatility of an MSW. Needless to say, I'll be attending Boston University in the Fall to earn my MSW. I plan to go for licensure after graduation.

I'd be happy to answer any other questions you have about this whole process!

randomgrl333 · Dec 17, 2009

After having already moved to Boston from California, I didn't want to go through the process of moving to yet another new city. I was willing to stay in Boston with the support network I had developed over the past two years, or I was willing to move back to the Bay Area. Because of this, I only applied to schools in the Boston area and in the SF Bay Area.

On a related note, at the end of the day (or should I say many month-long process), more than just the clinical focus mattered to me. Simmons and Boston College both have an even stronger clinical program than BU, but the overall "vibe" of the schools didn't feel like the right fit. Once I had crossed those two off of the list (as well as SF State), I was left with BU and Berkeley.

I went to the UC Berkeley info session and a potential student raised his hand and asked, "if I'm thinking about going into private practice, would this program be a good fit?" and the staff person (I believe it was the Director of Admissions, but I could be mistaken) responded by saying, "Do not come here; we don't want you." No joke. I'm not planning to go into private practice, but the fact that they would respond so strongly to such a question made me realize that they do not value the clinical aspect of their program. Additionally, after speaking with some current Berkeley MSW students, I continued to hear that the program did not value clinical MSWs, even though social welfare & macro work both involve a lot of clinical skills.

I also spoke with a friend's family friend who has experience teaching both at BU and at UC Berkeley. I explained my interests and future career goals and she highly recommended I attend BU. She said the coursework would better match my interests and that a degree from BU stands out as a much stronger clinical degree than one from Berkeley, even with their reputation. Also, because I'm planning to move back to the Bay Area, I'll stand out with a BU degree, whereas many Berkeley graduates stay in the area.

I hope this long-winded answer helped to address your questions...

One last note: I have enjoyed the program at BU. I've struggled at times with frustrations about the introductory courses -- they're extremely basic. While I understand the need for everyone to have a strong foundation, especially career-changers, it was frustrating to spend thousands of dollars on tuition and not feel like I was really learning anything new and applicable to my future career goals. That being said, I enjoyed aspects of the courses, as well as the faculty and classmates (for the most part, there are always those few...) and know that I definitely made the right decision.

I highly recommend meeting with faculty and current students before making your decision.

coloradocutter · Dec 21, 2009

mdm1117 said:
Hi randomgrl333,

Can I ask what route you chose? I am also in the same predicament this year. I am trying to choose between the MSW at University of Chicago and the PsyD at Adler. I'm not sure if it's worth being in debt over $120,000 after the PsyD. It seems that you can do pretty much the same thing with an MSW, except testing...

I don't think it would ever be worth it to go into debt $120k. Those student loans are going to really be painful a few months after you graduate. Your choices will be severely limited. If that leaves you few options for pursuing a doctorate, I think that's the point. The PsyDs are too expensive and the PhDs are too few. Until something changes, that is what you are left with or a masters.

Another poster said to research your market. That is imperative. Some states like NC severely limit master's level clinicians. They are required to have a lot of supervision hours from doctoral level therapists for several years. A PhD gives you the most options and is cheaper, but as mentioned earlier, there are very few slots. There are a few very clinically oriented programs (UT-Southwestern, UFlorida, Auburn, etc.) that don't take forever. Assessments, forensics, neuropsychology, and other specialties are more lucrative and more accessible for doctoral level psychologists. Obviously, academics, consulting and expert witness work will be more likely with a doctorate. So, bottom line, I think you have more options. However, I think that a very good business-oriented MSW could do well. It really depends on the person and how good they are at the business side - if you are talking about individual practice.

It's a difficult decision.

katciao · Jan 18, 2010

WannaBeDrMe said:
Ok, well, I'm an MSW applying to PsyD programs this fall. I applied to 1 PsyD the first time and was waitlisted @ my top choice. I had chosen it b/c it aligned perfectly with my research at the time and funding was available. Had I gotten off the waitlist, I would have spent less money there than on my MSW.

My MSW cost me somewhere around $60000 at a state university. I had an assistanceship but it did not even cover gas money to/from my internship site. We took 15-17 hours per semester with a ton of busy work and my internship was 40 hours a week on top of t hat w/a commute time of at least 3 hrs per day. I do not know ANYONE who got a full ride for their MSW. In fact, there was only one assistanceship higher than mine and it was double-time and paid 2x as much per month.

Now, post-MSW, I find that I am 1 of 9 billion (seems like it) people in a state where doctoral level clinicians are very rare. RESEARCH YOUR INTENDED MARKET. Here, if I had my PsyD right now (which I would have had if I would have applied to more than 1 program and pursued that option before MSW), I would be writing my own check anywhere.

Now, I am competing with clinicians who have 20 years more experience than myself... all for the same jobs. I am watching my cohort-mates struggle and job hop (some have 3-4 per year). I am watching my field supervisor (TOP MSW school graduate, top of her class 25 years ago) barely make enough to feed her kids so she took another job in private practice.

Additionally, I struggle with being one of the rare MSW who LOVE research. I stay on top of as much as humanly possible. When I'm at conferences/trainings, I end up connecting (usually) only with the presenter. The questions my colleagues ask SCARE me at how much they just don't know. I'm not saying I know everything, because I don't, but I realized that I hit my ceiling in this state, with this group of colleagues, because we just have different end goals.

I have a NEED to know as much as possible. I don't want to do therapy everyday for the rest of my life and every intake/assessment job I apply for, I'm told I'm over qualified OR worse, told nothing at all and just set aside.

So, that's the flip side of this turkey. I want my PsyD so I can go on to do a very formal, respected internship and post-doc in clinical neuro or child neuro and I want to work in testing, assessments, diagnostics, forensics, etc. I do NOT want to sit and do therapy every week. I am zero percent interested in working in child protective services (which in my state, all of these are MSW level workers).

It turns out that the things I've always wanted to do, I can NOT do with my MSW. I was told I could... by professors (not my psych profs, they were always against me going MSW)... by materials on the web... but in reality, the market does not support MSW's doing cool stuff unless they are the 1 in 10,000 who were able to secure a niche coming straight out of school. There are very few, if any, LCSW's positions open in the Uni of NC system. I check... on the regular... and they are almost always hiring doctoral level clinicians. Even then, it's not usually even EdD's for counselors... it's almost always PhD's and PsyD's of clinical psych w/EXPERIENCE in the setting.

That being said, your GPA is great. It is where it needs to be... your GRE's are a little low for PsyD funded programs. If you could pull your GRE's up 100-200 pts (I know, it's a lot, but it's worth a shot), you would be very competitive. Do you have any research experience? Do you have a good idea of what you want to do within the subfield of university counseling? Eating disorders is a good niche for that population. Now, and why I wanted to go that route, I think diagnostics and assessments are going to be so so so so much more important than ever... that's why I thought a psychiatric social worker would be perfect to catch the subtle hints @ psychosis/warning signs... the hiring committees, not so much.

Just apply to both, there are great fully funded PsyD programs that would cost you less than a typical MSW program but it isn't just the cost of the program you need to consider, as the others said, can you do all that you need to do with the MSW?

The mental health specialist is a good enough position. It might look weird if you went hopping around trying all different aspects... or it might look weird that you did that the whole time, my point is, that sort of stuff is unpredictable and your best offense is to know what you want and demand it from the programs (politely of course)... don't shotgun applications, really take a look at the profs, the students, the graduates, the internships they land, read through their course descriptions (that can tell you a LOT).... I don't pay as much attention to statistics and rankings but I do care about how they are generally perceived by their peers...

ok, this is long, gotta run, but good luck with your decision, there is NOTHING wrong w/being a social worker and I will proudly keep my LCSW (if I ever earn it) until the day I become a PsyD... even then, I will still keep my MSW proudly displayed and pay my NASW dues on the regular...

good luck to you!

Thanks for describing your experience in social work. If you want to do research, esp. neuropsych, why are you applying to PsyD programs? A PhD program in Psych or Social Work sound like better fits for you.

Therapist4Chnge · Jan 18, 2010

There is some good information in here, but also some misinformation I'd like to clear up. First off, an MSW and Psy.D. are very different degrees, with very different training and career paths. I'll describe below some of the differences.

randomgrl333 said:
I'm looking to become a counselor in a University Health Center. I've searched many University websites and found a mix of PhD, PsyD, and LCSWs holding this position.

To run a counseling center you'll need a doctorate. To work at one it will vary by location.

randomgrl333 said:
I prefer the coursework found in most PsyD programs and I feel that these programs would better prepare me for individual counseling, but are the extra years in school and loans worth it?

Honestly, I think you'll be better prepared for individual therapy because you'll have more in-depth training and a stronger background in the research, which informs clinical practice. I can't answer if it is, "worth it", as that is a personal choice.

usdenick said:
I'm assuming you have looked at the price tags on the PsyD programs, many of them seem to be quite a bit more expensive than the PhD programs or are from much less prestigious schools. I was mainly looking at PhD programs since they seemed to be more flexible with financial aid or from better-ranked psychology departments. I feel that if you are going to go and get that doctorate, you may as well get it from a highly regarded school. This will better equip you with the credentials and connections to get research and teaching jobs should you want them after you get your PhD degree (unless you want to teach in rural areas, where the graduate program you attended may not be as important in getting an academic/teaching job). Most highly-ranked PhD and PsyD programs (there is really only one highly ranked PsyD program, Rutgers) are also much better about financial aid. They are also VERY competitive to get in to and more rigorous/more emphasis on research.

1. Not all PsyDs cost an arm and a leg, so it is important to point out this misnomber.

2. There is no accurate, "ranking" of psychology programs, as the model for psychology is very different than other graduate schools. The quality of your mentor is far more important than the name of your university. There have been some attempts to rank programs, but none have done a good job.

3. There are more quality Psy.D. programs than just Rutgers. If you ask training directors and program directors you'll hear programs like Baylor, Xavier, etc.

usdenick said:
From your post, however, I take it that you don't really have any interested in being an academic/teacher/researcher. I'm the same way and this is finally what made me realize that the doctoral route would be wrong for me. Most PhD programs I looked at stated that they prepared people for being a researcher, scientist and teacher. I realized that I would be spending six years of my life and a good 2+ would just be preparing me to be a scientist and academic. No doubt great training, but not for someone who really just wants to be a clinician and work with people in various regards.

Research is an important part of doctoral training, so if someone is averse to research, they should not pursue doctoral training.

usdenick said:
I have the utmost respect for those that are pursuing Doctorates. However, in the end, I realized that I would not fit in with them: Most of them would probably be striving towards working in academia (at least part-time), while I really want to actually practice. In an MSW program I would be in a program that prepared me for that, had connections to help me get started in that field and was learning with students that were gearing up for that as well.

The majority of doctoral level psychologists (Ph.D. & Psy.D.) go into practice. I can't answer how many also teach on the side, but a minority go into academia full-time.

usdenick said:
Certainly a PhD or PsyD would prepare you very well for being a mental health practitioner (probably much better than an MSW alone would), but you can also seek out a MSW program that has a strong clinical track AND you can always take post-graduate courses and training in mental health counseling.

This is a very good suggestion. I know LCSWs that completed their training requirements and then sought out specific training and supervision in their area of interest. They are very competent clinicians, and I have referred people to them without hesitation.

WannaBeDrMe said:
Now, post-MSW, I find that I am 1 of 9 billion (seems like it) people in a state where doctoral level clinicians are very rare. RESEARCH YOUR INTENDED MARKET. Here, if I had my PsyD right now (which I would have had if I would have applied to more than 1 program and pursued that option before MSW), I would be writing my own check anywhere.

Excellent point.

WannaBeDrMe said:
Additionally, I struggle with being one of the rare MSW who LOVE research. I stay on top of as much as humanly possible. When I'm at conferences/trainings, I end up connecting (usually) only with the presenter. The questions my colleagues ask SCARE me at how much they just don't know. I'm not saying I know everything, because I don't, but I realized that I hit my ceiling in this state, with this group of colleagues, because we just have different end goals.

Psychologists and Social Workers tend to be very different in how they approach things, their strengths/weaknesses, and their goals. As an aside, one isn't better than the other.

WannaBeDrMe said:
So, that's the flip side of this turkey. I want my PsyD so I can go on to do a very formal, respected internship and post-doc in clinical neuro or child neuro and I want to work in testing, assessments, diagnostics, forensics, etc. I do NOT want to sit and do therapy every week. I am zero percent interested in working in child protective services (which in my state, all of these are MSW level workers).

It turns out that the things I've always wanted to do, I can NOT do with my MSW. I was told I could... by professors (not my psych profs, they were always against me going MSW)... by materials on the web... but in reality, the market does not support MSW's doing cool stuff unless they are the 1 in 10,000 who were able to secure a niche coming straight out of school.

For the thing you want to do, you won't be able to do them at the Masters level. While testing and assessment requires licensure at the doctoral level, neuro requires an additional 2 year fellowship. I'm going through the process now, and it is rediculously involved.

mdm1117 said:
Hi randomgrl333,

Can I ask what route you chose? I am also in the same predicament this year. I am trying to choose between the MSW at University of Chicago and the PsyD at Adler. I'm not sure if it's worth being in debt over $120,000 after the PsyD. It seems that you can do pretty much the same thing with an MSW, except testing..

This is not true. The training is completely different, as is the scope of practice. Social workers do far more than just case management and therapy, and psychologists do far more than just therapy and assessment. There is little crossover in their scope.

GradStudent87 said:
...i'm not sure that most PsyD students have career interestes in academia, PhD's students maybe but most PsyD students from what i've heard have very little interest in academia and do the research in the PsyD program(which from what i've heard is less intensive then PhD programs) just because they feel it will make them better clinicians.

Again...not true. Many doctoral level (Ph.D. & Psy.D.) teach and do research, some more than others. For instance, I'm a Psy.D. and I love research and I work with Ph.Ds who don't. The same goes for teaching. There is also a BIG difference between people who conduct research and people who use research.

katciao said:
Thanks for describing your experience in social work. If you want to do research, esp. neuropsych, why are you applying to PsyD programs? A PhD program in Psych or Social Work sound like better fits for you.

A Psy.D. or Ph.D. in Clinical/Counseling is fine for neuropsych, though I'm not sure how a Social Work Ph.D. fits in there.

6sf5 · Jun 17, 2010

does anybody know of some good MSW programs in Canada? I am no longer applying to any clinical psyc programs as I do not think that my application would be strong enough, and have had a recent interest in MSW programs. Although there are many in the states, they are much more expensive than in Canada.

Thanks!

MSW vs. PsyD?

randomgrl333

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thepsychgeek

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usdenick

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WannaBeDrMe

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mdm1117

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GradStudent87

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randomgrl333

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gkatzzie

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randomgrl333

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coloradocutter

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katciao

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Therapist4Chnge

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6sf5

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