Volunteer Hours - Unspoken Requirement???

First of all, let me state that you're doing some amazing work there that will impress any med school adcom.

However to address your question...not having been an adcom, I don't know the exact answer. But my take on it is that some service activity outside of your job is strongly taken into consideration in applications. And while I understand that you're very busy (believe me, most of worked full-time jobs, took classes, had families to raise), claiming that you couldn't find even an hour/week for volunteering probably wouldn't cut it with most adcoms. It doesn't have to be something involved. Tutoring HS students for an hour/week. When I lived in NYC I worked two jobs, took classes, and found time to volunteer at a peds rehab center.

The alternative is that if you're doing gratis work with clients, you might be able to classify that as volunteer work.

But my advice would be to try to find some small way to volunteer your time.

And while your 3.5 GPA is very good, it's still below the national average of allopathic med school matriculants (3.6 and rising). So the less reasons you can give for anyone to question your application (Why didn't this applicant do any volunteer work?) the better.

Good luck! I'll be rooting for you.

Give us a little more detail on your clinical work. Is it in a medical clinic, placing you in the thick of the action between doctors and patients? Or is it an office gig in a clinical setting? (edit: sorry, I missed the midwife part...)

No matter how significant your clinical job, you should snag some hours in a non-health care volunteer gig. As much trouble as it is to apply to med school, don't let this unwritten req trip you up - get some hours doing "something" completely altruistic, without compensation. One to 2 hours a week for the next year would be great.

Plenty of people who work in clinical gigs report mixed to poor results for not having any volunteer work in their app - don't assume your clinical work will suffice. Plenty of nurses and EMTs tell sad tales of woe over this matter.

Oh, and get some shadowing in with a variety of docs...don't simply rely on your clinical gig as a proxy for this other "unwritten" requirement. This can be a modest number of hours, say 40+, but do get this in.

flip26 said:

Give us a little more detail on your clinical work. Is it in a medical clinic, placing you in the thick of the action between doctors and patients? Or is it an office gig in a clinical setting?

If it is truly clinical with tons of patient contact, you could snag some hours in a non-health care volunteer gig. As much trouble as it is to apply to med school, don't let this unwritten req trip you up - get some hours doing "something" completely altruistic, without compensation. One to 2 hours a week for the next year would be great.

Plenty of people who work in clinical gigs report mixed to poor results for not having any volunteer work in their app - don't assume your clinical work will suffice. Plenty of nurses and EMTs tell sad tales of woe over this matter.

Oh, and get some shadowing in with a variety of docs...don't simply rely on your clinical gig as a proxy for this other "unwritten" requirement. This can be a modest number of hours, say 40+, but do get this in.

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Flip,

She's in the birthin babies biz. Elbow deep in the cootch. Hands on enough for you?

Volunteering sure. When you can. You usually get something out of it anyway. That's unrelated to applicational designs.

And since we're premeds dispensing opinions as if having an @sshole is our qualifying criteria. How's this?

Shadowing is for ******ed tourists who like to snap excessive pictures at their first real live experience. So they can scribble some pretentiously profound dribble about how much it affected them.

Nasrudin out.

Ditto on what Flip said about volunteering and shadowing. I thought I had the experience aspect covered (seven yrs paid and two years clinic volunteering) and when I talked to an interviewer for advice, his first question was "Where's your shadowing?" To them shadowing shows exposure to a variety. His comment was that when they are picking interviewees, all they see is how many different things you have done and don't really get a feel for depth of a given experience until they talk to you.

Nasrudin said:

Flip,

She's in the birthin babies biz. Elbow deep in the cootch. Hands on enough for you?

Volunteering sure. When you can. You usually get something out of it anyway. That's unrelated to applicational designs.

And since we're premeds dispensing opinions as if having an @sshole is our qualifying criteria. How's this?

Shadowing is for ******ed tourists who like to snap excessive pictures at their first real live experience. So they can scribble some pretentiously profound dribble about how much it affected them.

Nasrudin out.

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What the hell is your problem?

Dude, I didn't create the system; like everyone else, I am trying to navigate it, to "play the game" so to speak. Anybody who is applying to med school needs to understand the system, and it is unwritten but expected that you will have volunteering and shadowing experiences in addition to any paid medical jobs you have had.

I think these unwritten reqs are for the most part BS, too, especially the shadowing. But it is crazy to think that you can skip these things if you want to be successful in this game.

Midwife2Doc said:

Thank you all for Honest advise

I have no problem working it in, its just one more thing to add that seems silly, given what I do already.I guess I am trying to understand the requirement and some times you have to just suck it up and do it and not try to understand it.

You know, if the requirement is to see what you can offer the community, then I have that covered, but if Adcom's are only worried about sorting applicants on a paper basis to "traige" them. Then I see the need to have more than everyone else! I have plenty of volunteer hours, its just old. I volunteered in a labor floor at the local hospital for 2 years, I volunteered as a firefighter (in my youth mind u!) and also for diaster medical assistance teams as an EMT, I am currently registered with local reserve Medical Corp as a midwife and as an EMT in my county. I put in many hours of volunteer work helping my local fire department create and put into practice a citizen's fire academy PR project. I wrote a database program in my "spare" time to help the non profit I work (before I worked for them) to track patients and payments, stats etc....

I put in my time for sure, but didn't track any of it, but could easily back it up with letters.

How detailed do they get? Should I estimate the hours and just give a lump sum total, I have volunteered 1600 hours since 1993? (around 100 a year?) Through Blah, Blh, Blah? does it need to be more recent? How much can they ask of one person? I do plan on the shadowing part for sure.

Oh and my GPA is 3.85 - Big difference, I shorted myself points! LOL

Thank you all for the responses, I appreciate good debate.

Robyn M.

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I think you will do great, but I do think you should get some shadowing in, in something other than OB/GYN.

You can list your volunteer activities with lump sum hour numbers on the app, but the system requires a start date and end date, so keep that in mind.

Recency in volunteering probably does matter, but with your nontrad medical gig, I doubt if it will be as important for you (as opposed to, say, a trad pre med listing hospital volunteer activities in high school but none in college - that will not fly with med schools).

I didn't really volunteer throughout my undergrad years, yet I still somehow got into medical school. I did, however, do a lot of diverse shadowing and worked full-time during my summers in order to pay for school.

I don't know; maybe I was the exception to the rule, but volunteer experiences never really came up during any of my interviews.

Nasrudin said:

Shadowing is for ******ed tourists who like to snap excessive pictures at their first real live experience. So they can scribble some pretentiously profound dribble about how much it affected them.

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Well, that's not exactly what I got out of shadowing or why I did it, but to each their own I guess.

flip26 said:

Give us a little more detail on your clinical work. Is it in a medical clinic, placing you in the thick of the action between doctors and patients? Or is it an office gig in a clinical setting? (edit: sorry, I missed the midwife part...)

No matter how significant your clinical job, you should snag some hours in a non-health care volunteer gig. As much trouble as it is to apply to med school, don't let this unwritten req trip you up - get some hours doing "something" completely altruistic, without compensation. One to 2 hours a week for the next year would be great.

Plenty of people who work in clinical gigs report mixed to poor results for not having any volunteer work in their app - don't assume your clinical work will suffice. Plenty of nurses and EMTs tell sad tales of woe over this matter.

Oh, and get some shadowing in with a variety of docs...don't simply rely on your clinical gig as a proxy for this other "unwritten" requirement. This can be a modest number of hours, say 40+, but do get this in.

Click to expand...

Interesting..I never even considered shadowing as I am working as an NP in an outpatient clinic for the past 3 years. Luckily I will have some time soon to start volunteer work a few hours per week. How much shadowing is necessary do you think? I know plenty of docs whom I refer my patients to who would be willing to let me shadow them...

Flip,

No problem here. Just a minority point of view w/ no leverage or importance to speak with. I've worked with so many arrogant physicians that I've come to think that the system is designed to select for this type of person who never gets their hands dirty.

I'm skipping shadowing as I am basically doing that for a living now. If you're right. I lose. Big. So you needn't feel insulted. That wasn't my intention.

However, the fact that you had no idea what being a midwife entailed is but one mere example, of how people come to the precipice of medical training without the slightest idea of the 90% of work that gets done in health care is in reality.

That's not an attack on you. But the manufacturing of arrogance itself, that's inherent in the churning out of white coats.

Come to think of it. OP. Flip is probably right. You should heed their advice and not my incendiary tendencies.

Nasrudin said:

Flip,

No problem here. Just a minority point of view w/ no leverage or importance to speak with. I've worked with so many arrogant physicians that I've come to think that the system is designed to select for this type of person who never gets their hands dirty.

I'm skipping shadowing as I am basically doing that for a living now. If you're right. I lose. Big. So you needn't feel insulted. That wasn't my intention.

However, the fact that you had no idea what being a midwife entailed is but one mere example, of how people come to the precipice of medical training without the slightest idea of the 90% of work that gets done in health care is in reality.

That's not an attack on you. But the manufacturing of arrogance itself, that's inherent in the churning out of white coats.

Come to think of it. OP. Flip is probably right. You should heed their advice and not my incendiary tendencies.

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I know what a midwife is. I skimmed the post and missed that detail, and got to the main point, her question about needing to have volunteer activities, to which I added the need for shadowing.

Regardless if she is a midwife, EMT, nurse or in some other health alliance gig: med schools expect volunteer service, and they expect shadowing. Not my rules - I think the reqs are BS myself - but it would be a shame for someone to go to all the expense, stress and time of taking the right courses, prepping for the MCAT, getting LORs, and applying without taking care of the volunteering and shadowing because they assumed that their clinical job suffices.

southerngrl said:

Interesting..I never even considered shadowing as I am working as an NP in an outpatient clinic for the past 3 years. Luckily I will have some time soon to start volunteer work a few hours per week. How much shadowing is necessary do you think? I know plenty of docs whom I refer my patients to who would be willing to let me shadow them...

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Even a premed without your exposure to a clinic only needs something on the order of 40 or so hours of shadowing - that is my opinion, based on everything I have learned - so I don't think you would need to go to any extremes.

Try to see some area of medicine unrelated to your current work. Emergency med is a good one.

flip26 said:

I know what a midwife is. I skimmed the post and missed that detail, and got to the main point, her question about needing to have volunteer activities, to which I added the need for shadowing.

Regardless if she is a midwife, EMT, nurse or in some other health alliance gig: med schools expect volunteer service, and they expect shadowing. Not my rules - I think the reqs are BS myself - but it would be a shame for someone to go to all the expense, stress and time of taking the right courses, prepping for the MCAT, getting LORs, and applying without taking care of the volunteering and shadowing because they assumed that their clinical job suffices.

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OK. I fail in the use of your words for exhibit A of my thesis. I apologize.

This process is class war fare. At times I look for reasons to curse the sky. I am off base.

OP. The safe bet is checking the boxes indicated.

And yet I will not submit to being lame voyeur. My sense of the patient's privacy will not permit it. This is a liability. For me. I should not seek to make it so for others.

Nasrudin said:

OK. I fail in the use of your words for exhibit A of my thesis. I apologize.

This process is class war fare. At times I look for reasons to curse the sky. I am off base.

OP. The safe bet is checking the boxes indicated.

And yet I will not submit to being lame voyeur. My sense of the patient's privacy will not permit it. This is a liability. For me. I should not seek to make it so for others.

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I agree with you here. The bulk of my "shadowing" was done in the ER which is a fairly public space; another chunk was done in surgery where I wore scrubs and a mask and stood off to the side. This as opposed to crowding into a small exam room with a physician and patient - I never did any of that because I, too, think it is too invasive as a premed.

Most of our fellow pre-meds think they walk on water, though, and like to mention how they interacted with patients, etc. Ehh, there is plenty of that to come in med school...and I have hundreds of hours interacting with patients in the free clinic where I volunteer.

.02 to add -- took me 2 app cycles to get in, after 1st one I spoke with adcomms @ 15-20 schools regarding strengthening my app.

what surprised me was the differences among what the schools valued -- some required shadowing, in that they didn't seriously consider an applicant who did not have this. One school recommended that I shadow 4-5 different specialties' physicians. Other schools felt it had no value and was a waste of time. Many stressed recent volunteer experience, a couple others stressed clinical experience (which you have plenty of)

relevance is that to hear one applicant say that they were successful with a certain background is somewhat meaningless, unless you want to focus on that one school and have strengths similar to the successful applicant. To be more broadly successful, I'd suggest gaining some volunteer experience. Based on what I heard, I'd shoot for min 100 hrs or so.

final word.. my GPA was solid too; higher than average for most schools that I applied to -- one MCAT section score + no clinical volunteer experience listed on amcas primary killed chances 1st time around. (later learned -- schools often do not read secondary essays which in my case listed recent clinical experience). This is a game of hoops to jump through, many of which may seem silly.

Midwife2Doc said:

This is a valid point, Thank you. My shedule has recently opened up a little, and I think I a going to fill that with volunteer hours for now. My college is also looking for colege dimplomats and SGA and I applied for those as well, to have some school EC and volunteer hours, so It seems to be coming together!

what did mst of you do yoru volunteer hours in? Sound slike mostly hospital / free clinic type work ....

Robyn

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That is exactly where i did my hours. The free clinic I am still doing - I actually enjoy the gig and derive a lot of satisfaction from it. The hospital gigs - not so much - those represent a "check the EC box" for me.

nontrdgsbuiucmd said:

what surprised me was the differences among what the schools valued -- some required shadowing, in that they didn't seriously consider an applicant who did not have this. One school recommended that I shadow 4-5 different specialties' physicians. Other schools felt it had no value and was a waste of time. Many stressed recent volunteer experience, a couple others stressed clinical experience (which you have plenty of)...To be more broadly successful, I'd suggest gaining some volunteer experience. Based on what I heard, I'd shoot for min 100 hrs or so.

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The bolded is very helpful info for all of us and the reason why even people with significant clinical work experience need to beef up their volunteer and shadowing hours - you just don't know what different schools value the most, so you need to have it all covered.

flip26 said:

you just don't know what different schools value the most, so you need to have it all covered.

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This is exactly right. There is no one size fits all for adcoms, but the general admonition to be a well-rounded candidate is applicable. That often, but not necessarily always, includes both volunteering and shadowing.

OP, you do have plenty of clinical experience. But unless you're working directly with obstetricians, you need to get some kind of exposure to the kind of work that physicians do. Since you want to do family practice, working with a family practice doc is a great idea.

Midwife2Doc said:

I pride myself on getting permission from my patients prior to having the RN student or a volunteer to even enter the room .... They deserve that much ..... some perfect stranger privy to their most personal and sometimes embarrassing questions and or exams unsettles some. pts. I work sometimes half a pregnancy to get a mom to open up. Students can screw that up with one quip or "attempt" to be nice .or make a joke because *They* are uncomfortable....even if told do not speak LOL

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It will be interesting to see if or how your practice changes once you finish med school. On my OB/gyn rotation, I never had a patient refuse to let me be in the room for the delivery, but it happened to some of my classmates, especially the guys. When the need arose, some residents and attendings weren't at all shy about pushing the issue with reluctant patients. Their argument was that the patient knew coming in that this was a teaching hospital. In fact, one attending said she flat out tells her patients that if they won't see residents and students, they need to find a different doctor. I worked with a couple of nurse midwives too, but I'm not sure how they handle this issue because it never came up.

Nasrudin said:

And yet I will not submit to being lame voyeur. My sense of the patient's privacy will not permit it. This is a liability. For me. I should not seek to make it so for others.

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Ha. You will spend the majority of your time in med school being a "lame voyeur". This is especially true if your med school requires clinical experience during the first two years, which a lot of med schools do. You will also get over your "liability" and become accustomed to violating patients' privacy on a regular basis (and often before the sun rises), because if you don't, you'll catch holy hell from your team about it.

flip26 said:

The bolded is very helpful info for all of us and the reason why even people with significant clinical work experience need to beef up their volunteer and shadowing hours - you just don't know what different schools value the most, so you need to have it all covered.

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I'm just shooting to cover what my state's med school requires and feel that it should cover anything imaginable.

Extracurricular Activities

Extracurricular activities are defined as activities outside the usual duties of a full-time job and/or school. The committee is interested in how applicants deal with the demands of their lives outside of the classroom. This is a strong indicator of how well they handle responsibilities and deal with stressful situations. It also predicts how well they will handle the difficult demands of medical school. Activities may include sports, church, family, volunteering and other special interests.

• The minimum requirement is some involvement in outside activities.
• The average applicant devotes 20 hours per week during each of the 4 years prior to entering medical school to activities such as volunteer service, research, athletics, student government and family obligations.

Community/Volunteer Service

Community/Volunteer service is defined as involvement in a service activity without constraint or guarantee of reward or compensation. The medical profession is strongly oriented to service in the community. Applicants should demonstrate a commitment to the community by involving themselves in service and volunteer activities. Work performed in service learning courses and community service performed as part of employment does not satisfy this requirement.

• The minimum requirement is 36 hours.
• The average applicant devotes 48 hours during each of the 4 years prior to entering medical school.

Leadership


Leadership is defined as a position of responsibility for others, with a purpose to guide or direct others. Dedication, determination, ability to make decisions and a willingness to contribute to the welfare of others are indicators of one's ability to succeed in medicine. Individuals with these characteristics readily accept positions of leadership and are an asset to their community and profession. Leadership capacity can be demonstrated in a variety of ways. Positions in employment, church, community and school organizations including coaching, tutoring and mentoring will satisfy this requirement.

• The minimum leadership requirement is 1 leadership experience lasting 3 months during the 4 years prior to matriculation.
• The average applicant has 3 different leadership experiences each lasting 3 months during the 4 years prior to matriculation.

Research

Research is defined as involvement in a scholarly or scientific hypothesis investigation that is supervised by an individual with verifiable research credentials.
Research is the foundation of medical knowledge. We consider participation in research activities to be an important part of the preparation for medical school. Physicians depend on medical literature to remain current in their fields. Most physicians participate in research at some point in their careers. Research experience may be in any discipline and performed at any site. However, it must involve the testing of a hypothesis.
Research performed, as part of a class is not acceptable unless the course was in independent research and the applicant completed independent, hypothesis-based research under the supervision of the professor. Research completed for a graduate thesis is acceptable. Applicants should be able to describe their project, the hypothesis investigated, and their role in the conduct of the research.

• The minimum requirement is 4 hours per week for 2 months or the equivalent of 32 hours.
• The average experience is 4 hours per week for 3 months or the equivalent of 48 hours.

Physician Shadowing

Physician shadowing is defined as the observation of a physician as s/he cares for and treats patients and carries out the other responsibilities of medical practice.
Applicants should spend enough time directly shadowing physicians to understand the challenges, demands and lifestyle of a medical doctor. Shadowing must be done with an allopathic (M.D.) or osteopathic (D.O.) physician. Time spent shadowing residents, physician assistants, podiatrists, veterinarians, nurses, EMT's, PhD's etc., will not be considered.

• The minimum requirement is 8 hours shadowing a physician(s) through all the activities of an average day.
• The average applicant spends 24 hours with a physician(s).

Patient Exposure

Patient exposure is defined as direct interaction with patients and hands-on involvement in the care of conscious people. It is important that the applicant be comfortable working with and around people who are ill.
Direct patient exposure can be gained in a variety of ways. Patient contact must include patients other than family members and friends and does not include indirect patient care such as housekeeping (cleaning operating rooms or patient rooms) working at the hospital information desk, or working in a pharmacy.

• The minimum patient exposure requirement is 4 hours per week for a period of 2 months or the equivalent of 32 hours.
• The average applicant spends 4 hours per week in patient exposure for 3 months or the equivalent of 48 hours.

Note: Time spent shadowing a physician cannot be used to meet the patient exposure requirement.

QofQuimica said:

This is exactly right. There is no one size fits all for adcoms, but the general admonition to be a well-rounded candidate is applicable. That often, but not necessarily always, includes both volunteering and shadowing.

OP, you do have plenty of clinical experience. But unless you're working directly with obstetricians, you need to get some kind of exposure to the kind of work that physicians do. Since you want to do family practice, working with a family practice doc is a great idea.


It will be interesting to see if or how your practice changes once you finish med school. On my OB/gyn rotation, I never had a patient refuse to let me be in the room for the delivery, but it happened to some of my classmates, especially the guys. When the need arose, some residents and attendings weren't at all shy about pushing the issue with reluctant patients. Their argument was that the patient knew coming in that this was a teaching hospital. In fact, one attending said she flat out tells her patients that if they won't see residents and students, they need to find a different doctor. I worked with a couple of nurse midwives too, but I'm not sure how they handle this issue because it never came up.


Ha. You will spend the majority of your time in med school being a "lame voyeur". This is especially true if your med school requires clinical experience during the first two years, which a lot of med schools do. You will also get over your "liability" and become accustomed to violating patients' privacy on a regular basis (and often before the sun rises), because if you don't, you'll catch holy hell from your team about it.

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This is an obvious necessary evil for the physician in training. But it is obscene for someone who has not been evaluated for and inducted into the profession.

Call me old fashioned. Or whatever. That remains the way I see it.

Physician shadowing? Patient exposure? Jeez.......this stuff is practically unheard of up here in Canada. Damn.....that'll make gaining entry even harder down South. I want to ask my orthopedic surgeon if i can shadow him but i just wonder how odd a request it is considering shadowing is a rarity (if it exists at all) up here. Then again, he's operated on me 4 times and I remember seeing some folks who were not health care pros in the OR a few times. Well I guess I might as well ask............

For anyone who knows about this and how it goes on in Canada please drop me a line!

thanks

steve

,

deleted.

.

Just make sure that if you go to the bother to shadow or volunteer, that it's doing something you like. That way, if ADCOM could care less, at least you got something out of it.

I was a teacher, and a parent, w/ very little free time. I did very minimal clinical volunteering, but it was hands-on, direct patient care (therapy for geriatric pts in med/surg). What I told the hospital coordinator was that I already spent lots of time taking care of healthy kids, I wanted to see sick adults, she was smart enough to see that I wasn't going to deliver flowers or help people check the right boxes on the ED admissions forms. Instead I got to see the poop and blood and vomit I wanted to see : )

I also knew enough physicians that I had a number of contacts w/ different perspectives on how school and life after school would be, so I felt prepared (sort of) for the process. I would make sure that you can convey that feeling to ADCOM, no matter how.

IMHO, good ADCOMs are looking for maturity and an ability to communicate and empathize with other humans. Believe or not, even non-trads can be immature Crappy ADCOMs look at stupid things like exactly how many hours you put in, and their schools probably don't deserve me. Those are probably the same schools w/ med students acting as voyeurs instead of actually DOING something in clinicals (including the first 2 years).

A primary thing you will need to do in your application is demonstrate that you are a willing learner, able to put your professional expertise and managerial role aside to fully participate in whatever kind of work is placed in front of you. The big questions that always come up for us old geezers as students and residents are, how will you handle supervision from someone much younger and perhaps less experienced? can you step away from being the boss and become the peon again? how will you handle a situation in which you have no control over the system/managerial aspects? Volunteer work is useful in this sense - you are out of your sphere, doing something unfamiliar. The other question is, why MD instead of RN, etc. I had shadowed and spent time with several different professions and had a very clear answer (which I bet you already do).

Otherwise, at your age, with your professional and volunteer experience, I really do not think you need to go and demonstrate your commitment to humankind by volunteering for non-medical projects. You have an abundance of volunteer experience.

I do think shadowing would be helpful, primarily because it will help you get more contacts within your community, and this will demonstrate interest beyond OB. 2 of my best letters of reference came from doctors I shadowed for 40 hours or more. If you plan to apply DO, you will need this for sure.

The place I plan to do my residency (in my perfect world) offers a shadowing program called a "Observeship" they also have a Visitorship". You sign up for up to 4 weeks, 1 week per specialist of shadowing their program docs. You get a certificate at the end or letter of recognition ... sounds cool, easy and I get a first hand look at where I want to do residency, to see if I *really* want to do my residency there.

This is what clinical rotations are all about. You will have an abundance of time doing this. In fact, you will hate shadowing at the end of it and will want a more active role. Every residency offers the opportunity for interested MS4 students to visit and rotate. A certificate or letter is meaningless - you will get school credit anyway.