What goes wrong with managed weight loss programs?

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PostLessOne

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A huge number of people in America are becoming obese. Many or most of them wish they were skinnier, as being a normal weight usually makes someone much more sexually attractive, whether they be male or female. Furthermore, doing the activities of daily living is harder if a person is fat, and of course there are the numerous health problems.

Well, the simple and obvious solution to being fat is to reduce the calories consumed and increase the calories expended. Nearly all people fail miserably in self administered diet and exercise programs. Every study I've seen shows that long term weight loss is pretty rare.

Logically, it follows that the brain creates enormously strong urges to eat and to not perform physical exertion if not necessary, since both urges would have survival value in our ancestral environment. (being a lazy overeater if you have enough food saved up to do so is evidently the best way to survive a few thousand years ago. Not moving around conserves calories and wear on your joints, and overeating means you eat food before it spoils)

So blaming fat people for not having enough "willpower" is somewhat misguided, since it also takes enormous willpower not to breathe. (although a few people can force themselves not to breathe until the point of passing out)

Still, there's an obvious solution. Have a third party provide the policing and the willpower. Have a third party prepare all the meals the person wanting to lose weight needs, in frozen individual portions, given 5 or 6 times a day with plenty of nutrients and decent flavor. Have a third party make the person exercise several times a week. (called a personal trainer)

And it SHOULD work. One would imagine that this would be a lot cheaper than a gastric bypass surgery. If the trainer were paid $40/hour * 3 a week, that would cost $6240 a year. If prepackaged meals with about 1500 daily calories cost $10/day over the cost of normal food, that would cost $3650 a year. Pretty expensive, and probably difficult for most Americans to afford.

I know such programs exist. Do they usually work? Is cost the reason they are not commonly performed? (although, if a gastric bypass costs $20,000 and only is effectively for 2 years on average, then the $10,000 a year for such a program seems reasonable)

I came up with this topic after reading this article : http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/01/21/obesity.discrimination/index.html?hpt=Sbin . In the comments section, I noticed lots of people claiming that they were still fat and yet they claimed to eat only "1250 calories of healthy food a day, with ample exercise". Numerous people claim this. They blame being fat on "bad genes". Yet, as far as I know, this is against the laws of thermodynamics. A 200 lb person, even if they have a thyroid problem, is probably going to use at least 1500-2000 kilocalories of energy per day just staying alive and occaionally walking. If a person isn't using about that much energy, they are a corpse.

Anyways, I'd very much like to hear what you all think on the matter. It's the biggest preventable health problem in America, and many of our future patients would live much better lives (with the ability to pursue more things and have better sex!) if they could lose their excess fat.

I'm sorry if I'm posting here while being ultimately pretty ignorant on the subject. However, the impression I get is that "nothing works", except for a surgical hackjob that permanently destroys a chunk of a healthy person's digestive system. So I independently sketched together the logical solution to the problem of obesity, and want to know why this solution doesn't work.

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One problem is that conventional diet and exercise guidelines are dead wrong. Another is that overeating often has deeply rooted psychological foundations which can be extraordinarily difficult to overcome, and mental health professionals are generally totally impotent to deal with such issues. There is really nowhere people can go for help on either front.
 
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What stops the person from hiding some snack and eating when no one is looking? Like you mentioned already, people either don't know how many calories they consume, are in denial about it, or lie about it.

I'd be more supportive of a system that was based on incentives. The best incentive in our country is cash. A healthy BMI is in the range of 18.5-24.9. The plan would be eligible for anyone above this range. Make it a voluntary program in which the individual wishes to participate. Devise an initial screening at a clinic to measure BMI, provide nutritional/ exercise material, set up an initial consultation with a dietitian to devise an individual plan, and allow free membership to the local YMCA with access to a personal trainer. The free membership would be for three months and can be renewed upon follow up appointment at the clinic.

Three months after the initial evaluation the patient goes back to the clinic for a follow up. BMI would be calculated as well as levels of creatinine, ketones etc to assure moderate weight loss. The ideal is one pound of weight loss per week. If all signs point to successful, moderate weight loss the patient then would have two choices. One would be to go home with nothing and the other would be to collect $2000 along with signing up for another three months. Repeat the cycle until the person is at a "healthy" BMI.

It would cost money to the system but would end up saving more money in the long run because of all the costs associated with treatment of the comorbidities associated with obesity.
 
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examples?

The field of exercise is deeply controverted and there are a large number of competing schools of thought based on different philosophic ideas and interpretations of science. The philosophy of aerobics, i.e. steady state or so-called "cadio" exercise, although still dominant, represents the dark ages of exercise and is simply backwards. It is gradually falling out of favor but people are still not turning to the correct ideas. By far the best form of exercise for almost everyone is intense strength training. Not "cardio", not pilates, not yoga, not spinning, not "core stability," and not crossfit, but hard resistance training. Although many people acknowledge the importance of strength training, very few know how to approach the subject rationally or hold as an absolute that it is "the" single best form of physical training.

The dietary arena has only recently emerged from the dark ages, which was embodied by the USDA Food Pyramid. Many people interested in exercise and nutrition now understand that the old ideas were wrong and have been enlightened by the more progressive schools of thought, but the medical profession is still 10-15 years behind and most doctors know very little about the subject, as evidenced by the fact that obesity seems to be as prevalent among doctors as the rest of the population.
 
And put a limit on it so they don't abuse it.
 
What's equally important as exercise is simply increasing activity altogether.
 
The field of exercise is deeply controverted and there are a large number of competing schools of thought based on different philosophic ideas and interpretations of science. The philosophy of aerobics, i.e. steady state or so-called "cadio" exercise, although still dominant, represents the dark ages of exercise and is simply backwards. It is gradually falling out of favor but people are still not turning to the correct ideas. By far the best form of exercise for almost everyone is intense strength training. Not "cardio", not pilates, not yoga, not spinning, not "core stability," and not crossfit, but hard resistance training. Although many people acknowledge the importance of strength training, very few know how to approach the subject rationally or hold as an absolute that it is "the" single best form of physical training.

The dietary arena has only recently emerged from the dark ages, which was embodied by the USDA Food Pyramid. Many people interested in exercise and nutrition now understand that the old ideas were wrong and have been enlightened by the more progressive schools of thought, but the medical profession is still 10-15 years behind and most doctors know very little about the subject, as evidenced by the fact that obesity seems to be as prevalent among doctors as the rest of the population.


I'd like to see some evidence and examples of the things you say. I'm curious. :)
 
Increased muscle mass increases the basal metabolic rate because it is more metabolically active than fat tissue. Aerobic training doesn't significantly increase muscle mass resistance training does. Aerobic training burns more calories per unit time than resistance training but the effects pretty much stop when exercise stops. Resistance training can result in an increased metabolic effect up to two days. Makes sense the muscle tissue is rebuilding which requires energy. Basically while aerobic exercise has more of an impact on that episode, resistance training can have more of a cumulative effect. Both aerobic and resistance training should be incorporated into a weight loss program for optimal results. Increasing activity in general can have a cumulative weight loss effect. Diet is equally if not more important than exercise. It's a lot more difficult to burn 300 calories then it is to eat it. You can exercise all you want but at the end of the day your body needs to burn more calories than it expends.
 
Agree, but this strategy isn't going to be as effective for overweight females because they don't have the hormones to gain very many pounds of lean muscle mass.
 
Agree, but this strategy isn't going to be as effective for overweight females because they don't have the hormones to gain very many pounds of lean muscle mass.

Sure they do! Genetics plays a much smaller role then people think. Genetic mutations would be the culprit and they are extremely rare among the world's population. It's really quite simple. Stress to muscle fibers stimulates growth. Testosterone, growth hormone, insulin, etc all help regulate growth. Just about everyone has the capability to increase muscle mass. The rate and extent to how much is variable with genetics. The goal wouldn't be for everyone to become body builders but to maintain what muscle mass they did have in an energy deficient state.
 
What I am trying to say is that a female can't put on 30-40 lbs of lean muscle mass in a couple years like a male can. At 50 calories per pound of muscle, that's 1500 extra calories burned up per day. This is why a bodybuilding friend of mine has to eat 3000-4000 calories per day and maintains a perfect 8 pack. His strategy won't work for a female at all, and probably won't work for many males as well.
 
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What I am trying to say is that a female can't put on 30-40 lbs of lean muscle mass in a couple years like a male can. At 50 calories per pound of muscle, that's 1500 extra calories burned up per day. This is why a bodybuilding friend of mine has to eat 3000-4000 calories per day and maintains a perfect 8 pack. His strategy won't work for a female at all, and probably won't work for many males as well.

The strategy is equally appropriate for women; they just can't achieve as high a rate of expenditure nor as low a bodyfat level as men. This is true regardless of what exercise program they follow. Women don't burn as many calories as men while walking or running either (their less muscular bodies require proportionately less energy to dispalce, and they can't run as fast). They have to restrict their caloric intake more than men to lose weight. But that is true totally independent of what kind of exercise program they follow.
 
What I am trying to say is that a female can't put on 30-40 lbs of lean muscle mass in a couple years like a male can. At 50 calories per pound of muscle, that's 1500 extra calories burned up per day. This is why a bodybuilding friend of mine has to eat 3000-4000 calories per day and maintains a perfect 8 pack. His strategy won't work for a female at all, and probably won't work for many males as well.

The body is generally in either an anabolic state or catabolic state. The anabolic state supports lean muscle and fat growth while the catabolic state supports lean muscle and fat loss. Your body is in an anabolic state when for example you consume 500 calories more than you burn in a day. If you burn 500 calories more than you consume than you are in a catabolic state. Each state has their own set of hormones that help stimulate one or the other effects.

So basically if your plan is to gain significant muscle mass you need to consume additional calories to help support this muscle growth. Unfortunately we aren't perfect and usually eat more than's required so with the increase in lean muscle mass we may have an increase in fat mass. On the other hand, in an energy deficient state you can slow the effects of muscle loss by resistance training. You can have a very slight increase in muscle mass but it isn't that significant. You are more likely to injure yourself in this state as well so you wouldn't want start a powerlifting routine. You'd want to do a strength-maintainence routine consisting of proper warm up, stretching, hydration and emphasis on reps as opposed to amount of weight.

The evidence is there we just fail to think of a way to make it applicable for the masses. We have the professionals but we don't use them for what they can do. We rely on big pharm and surgery to solve all of our healthcare problems.
 
Personally I think 2 things are the matter:

The first and largest issue is portion control. Normal americans eat portions that are too large and too dense in calories.

On diets, people do not create set portions and "cheat". I think that if they had portions that were laid out for them they would stop eating at a more reasonable level. This is why people loose weight on programs with set meals.

Second is the amt of exercise people do. To loose weight you cannot just exercise 30 minutes 3 times a week. You need closer to an hour or more a day.
 
Personally I think 2 things are the matter:

The first and largest issue is portion control. Normal americans eat portions that are too large and too dense in calories.

On diets, people do not create set portions and "cheat". I think that if they had portions that were laid out for them they would stop eating at a more reasonable level. This is why people loose weight on programs with set meals.

Second is the amt of exercise people do. To loose weight you cannot just exercise 30 minutes 3 times a week. You need closer to an hour or more a day.

I disagree I start losing weight with a 30 minute fast power walk. Also, I think that it may be stastically improbable that obese people lose much weight in that the same factors that led to weight gain like lack of self control and desire to exercise aren't likely to change. I quit smoking in med school. Wasn't that tuff. I graduated med school by self discipline. Not that tuff. Just like type II diabetes is more likely to be in two identical twins than type 1. Maybe they weren't born with the will to control what passes throgh their lips.
 
Personally I think 2 things are the matter:

The first and largest issue is portion control. Normal americans eat portions that are too large and too dense in calories.

On diets, people do not create set portions and "cheat". I think that if they had portions that were laid out for them they would stop eating at a more reasonable level. This is why people loose weight on programs with set meals.

Second is the amt of exercise people do. To loose weight you cannot just exercise 30 minutes 3 times a week. You need closer to an hour or more a day.

There have been studies showing that increasing exercise does not lead to weight loss across the board because people end up overeating afterwards.

I exercise because it makes me feel better and it's obviously good for other things, but I don't overdo it. I keep my weight in range by eating what my body needs to function, period. Weight loss is majority diet.

People in America do not learn how to cook. The ONLY way we will tackle obesity is to make fresh food cheaper and more convenient, processed food more expensive. I suppose to some that sounds awfully socialist, but we need to tackle obesity like we tackled smoking. A lot of people would love to eat their veggies if they could AFFORD them and knew what to do with a bunch of fresh vegetables. You'd be amazed at how many people don't even know how to steam them.
 
What we need to do is look at what people ate and did in the past, when most people were not fat, and see how it's different from today, when most people are.

Possible culprits: more sedentary jobs; pre-packaged foods; the ubiquity of high-fructose corn syrup. I started buying natural peanut butter for my kids when I discovered the regular stuff has icing sugar in it. Icing sugar! Do you make a sandwich with it, or spread it on a cake?
 
What we need to do is look at what people ate and did in the past, when most people were not fat, and see how it's different from today, when most people are.

Possible culprits: more sedentary jobs; pre-packaged foods; the ubiquity of high-fructose corn syrup. I started buying natural peanut butter for my kids when I discovered the regular stuff has icing sugar in it. Icing sugar! Do you make a sandwich with it, or spread it on a cake?

Basically it comes down to people moving more back in the day and less production/consumption of sugar (High fructose corn syrup), processed foods, etc. A sedentary lifestyle coupled with an overabundance of cheap, calorie dense food is the biggest culprit. Also add the fact that when you wait in line at the grocery store you have several different magazines "selling" diets to people as they wait in line in the grocery store. Too much misinformation people don't know who to believe. Maybe more public service announcements about the basics of nutrition would be a step in the right direction to inform people about what concepts such as calories, fat, portion size, etc... It's disturbing to see the prevalence of obesity of kids in this country slowly spiraling out of control.
 
Basically it comes down to people moving more back in the day and less production/consumption of sugar (High fructose corn syrup), processed foods, etc. A sedentary lifestyle coupled with an overabundance of cheap, calorie dense food is the biggest culprit. Also add the fact that when you wait in line at the grocery store you have several different magazines "selling" diets to people as they wait in line in the grocery store. Too much misinformation people don't know who to believe. Maybe more public service announcements about the basics of nutrition would be a step in the right direction to inform people about what concepts such as calories, fat, portion size, etc... It's disturbing to see the prevalence of obesity of kids in this country slowly spiraling out of control.

What would your advice be as to dietary fats?
 
Most of the people think that they can lose their weight just by doing some cardio or some fast walking. But the truth is that you have do strength exercises if you want to lose weight. And eat food which have low calorie in them. It takes time for one to lose weight, but most of the people quit after the first 2 or 3 months of their diet plan.
 
What would your advice be as to dietary fats?

I believe the current recommendation is still 30 percent of dietary intake provided by fat calories. Trans fat should be limited to 2 g/day if not eliminated entirely. Saturated fat should be limited to 20g/day. Health benefits of monounsaturated fat and heart health should be emphasized. The same should be done for the omega 3 fatty acids with intent to increase its consumption percentage with respect to other polyunsaturated fats. The biggest problem in this country is the fact that generally people are consuming too many fat calories. Fat provides more than twice the calories per gram than carbohydrates or protein. The most significant contributor to many of the comorbitidies associated with obesity is BMI status itself. The primary issue should be decreasing the net caloric intake to produce a energy deficiency state which promotes weight reduction. I don't think the American populace appreciates how many fat calories they actually consume in day. I think that would be a good place to start.

There are some atkins advocates that believe that a higher consumption percentage would be beneficial. There is studies that suggest that when calories are moderated successfully, that this diet could possibly produce a better lipoprotein profile. The diet seems to produce successful weightloss during the duration of the diet. The problem is that long-term compliance to the diet is low. There is a problem with rebound adiposity which can result in more fat mass than prior to initiation of the diet. The proposed mechanism is though to be do to increased sensitivity of insulin and lipoprotein lipase. Due to the low long-term compliance of the diet, its long-term effect is questionable.
 
I believe the current recommendation is still 30 percent of dietary intake provided by fat calories. Trans fat should be limited to 2 g/day if not eliminated entirely. Saturated fat should be limited to 20g/day. Health benefits of monounsaturated fat and heart health should be emphasized. The same should be done for the omega 3 fatty acids with intent to increase its consumption percentage with respect to other polyunsaturated fats. The biggest problem in this country is the fact that generally people are consuming too many fat calories. Fat provides more than twice the calories per gram than carbohydrates or protein. The most significant contributor to many of the comorbitidies associated with obesity is BMI status itself. The primary issue should be decreasing the net caloric intake to produce a energy deficiency state which promotes weight reduction. I don't think the American populace appreciates how many fat calories they actually consume in day. I think that would be a good place to start.

There are some atkins advocates that believe that a higher consumption percentage would be beneficial. There is studies that suggest that when calories are moderated successfully, that this diet could possibly produce a better lipoprotein profile. The diet seems to produce successful weightloss during the duration of the diet. The problem is that long-term compliance to the diet is low. There is a problem with rebound adiposity which can result in more fat mass than prior to initiation of the diet. The proposed mechanism is though to be do to increased sensitivity of insulin and lipoprotein lipase. Due to the low long-term compliance of the diet, its long-term effect is questionable.

The issue of optimum macronutrient consumption is not settled. Truth is there is research on both sides. Dean Ornish, and others, have proven a very low fat diet reduces (and reverses) heart disease. But there are lots of studies showing that saturated fats are not correlated with heart disease; here's a recent meta-analysis:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...med_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=2

More from these authors, suggesting that it's the carbs, not the fats:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...med_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=1
(It's noteworthy that these authors are not lightweights. Frank Hu is a very well respected expert at Harvard, and Krauss is the guy who first figured out the 'small dense LDL' particle's role in disease.)

Gary Taubes' book from a few years ago reviewed the data on this carb/fat issue and also concluded that it's the carbs, not the fats.

One thing is clear. The big push toward low fat has proven disastrous, as fats were replaced by sugars. Fats have been overly demonized.
 
That's interesting research and contradictory to the research concluding saturated fats have a significant impact on increasing levels of atherogenic LDLs contributing to CVD morbidity. I wonder how the dietetic community is interpreting such studies, and if its influencing any change in recommendations.

I believe the biggest impact simple sugars have on the body is fact they are empty calories. There may be a slight correlation with their high glycemic index value and lipogenesis, but I think this is not as impactful as the concept of consuming 250 calories/20 oz soda without contributing to gastric distention thus providing little to no satiation response. There may also be a slight correlation with consuming high glycemic foods and decreased satiety between meals. This does seem to be a valid concern. The rapid surge of glucose produces a concomitant increase in insulin which is followed by a rapid decrease in blood sugar stimulating the appetite earlier than consumption of a low-glycemic carbohydrate. The increased frequency of consumption could lead to increased total caloric intake. I do think the overconsumption of simple sugars in this country is a huge problem and a primary contributor to this epidemic.

As for fat, I agree that it is important. It slowers gastric emptying which increases the duration between meals. It also decreases the insulin response which decreases activity of LPL. It assists in weight loss given an energy deficient state. It will be interesting to see follow up studies to the ones above.
 
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