Mcat vs step 1.

i would also like to know this. i did badly on the MCAT. i tend to do badly on standardized tests. A's in hih school and 5's on all the AP's but mediocre SAT. same in college. i tend to do well on things that are subject based but still did badly on MCAT. i would love to hear some people who scored poorly on the MCAT (with studying) but came back and did well on the Step 1. what did u do? p.s i am an incoming M1 so i know i am far off from the boards but i am a little depressed that i can't break thru this standardized test thing.

bump

Cool, so you don't have to score over 35 on the mcat to get 260+.

I'm still waiting fro my Step 1 score, but I thought I'd share a link I came across. The AAMC did a study of how predictive the MCAT and undergrad GPA (uGPA) are in determining USMLE scores and med school performance. There are a better studies out there, but this one boiled it down pretty well:

-MCATs and uGPAs each contribute something unique to the prediction of medical school grades.
-The combination of MCATs and uGPAs is a more powerful predictor of grades than either predictor alone.
-The MCAT is a strong predictor of USMLE scores.

I will await my Step 1 score in hopes of following this trend--my MCAT was quite strong, while my undergrad and med school performance was decidedly average.

I believe it only correlates with respect to confidence and calm in preparation for the boards. Most people who are able to get into medical school can change their habits and apply themselves beyond their previous experiences. Case in point: me...
1st MCAT 29
2nd MCAT 35
Boards 248
Once I applied myself and believed I could do it (score well on standardized exams), the boards seemed like less of a hurdle, even months away from the test. Sure, I had occasional bouts of pure terror during prep, but a cold brew and a weekend without studying cured those...

Originally posted by ecpiii
I believe it only correlates with respect to confidence and calm in preparation for the boards.

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Why do you believe this? Is it just because you experienced changes in your own confidence? As with any test/study of behavior prediction (e.g., IQ), the correlation won't be anything near perfect, just significantly greater than 0 (i.e., the study has an interesting finding), which means the correlation is useful for probability, that is, group behavior prediction, more than anything.

It's a far bigger stretch to form such a belief based on personal experience and what may seem like common sense, particularly since group behavior rarely reduces to zero or a single co-variate (another round-about way of saying that correlation isn't close to 1).

-Pitman

So you can actually score 35+ on the mcat and still fail step 1. I figured people w/35+ on the mcat wouldn't let themselves fail step 1.

I think people are messing with this poll. Look at the mode for the <30 MCAT people: 240-259! No way, considering that the mode for 30-35 MCAT people is 230-239.

I think people are messing with this poll. Look at the mode for the <30 MCAT people: 240-259! No way, considering that the mode for 30-35 MCAT people is 230-239.

Click to expand...

I think that actually makes sense. People who got below a 30 MCAT wanted to "redeem" themselves and prove they can do good on standardized tests, so they worked like crazy during medschool to get those 240's. People who got a 30-35 MCAT may have been too confident that they could do great on the USMLE as well, so they didn't study that hard. Unfortunately for them, I strongly believe there cannot be a correlation between the MCAT and USMLE because the boards require way much more depth, understanding, and remembering (i.e. memorization). In fact, people who got below a 30 on the MCAT and over a 240 on step 1 are inspirational!

Originally posted by Hippocrates2007
I think that actually makes sense. People who got below a 30 MCAT wanted to "redeem" themselves and prove they can do good on standardized tests, so they worked like crazy during medschool to get those 240's. People who got a 30-35 MCAT may have been too confident that they could do great on the USMLE as well, so they didn't study that hard.

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I can see this on an anectodal basis, but definitely not as a general rule.

Unfortunately for them, I strongly believe there cannot be a correlation between the MCAT and USMLE because the boards require way much more depth, understanding, and remembering (i.e. memorization).

Click to expand...

Unfortunately, there are some solid studies that indicate MCAT scores are independently predictive of USMLE scores.

In fact, people who got below a 30 on the MCAT and over a 240 on step 1 are inspirational!

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Agree with you there!

fermi, you're right it's not a general rule. There are just way too many variables to derive a clean correlation between MCAT and USMLE. Those studies definitely don't show any exclusive correlations one way or another, i.e. bad MCAT=bad boards, and vice versa.

Originally posted by Hippocrates2007
fermi, you're right it's not a general rule. There are just way too many variables to derive a clean correlation between MCAT and USMLE. Those studies definitely don't show any exclusive correlations one way or another, i.e. bad MCAT=bad boards, and vice versa.

Click to expand...

But the correlation for MCAT -> USMLE I is pretty good in the studies, showing group differences (of course there will be many outliers, this is statistics)...given a large sample size. The sample here is small, and the posters could inherently be anomalous (e.g., self-selective..for the poll, for this board, for Internet use in general, etc.). Moreover, informal self-reporting is not all that valid for any "study".

Thus, this poll doesn't say much...

-Pitman

Originally posted by Fermi
I'm still waiting fro my Step 1 score, but I thought I'd share a link I came across. The AAMC did a study of how predictive the MCAT and undergrad GPA (uGPA) are in determining USMLE scores and med school performance. There are a better studies out there, but this one boiled it down pretty well:

-MCATs and uGPAs each contribute something unique to the prediction of medical school grades.
-The combination of MCATs and uGPAs is a more powerful predictor of grades than either predictor alone.
-The MCAT is a strong predictor of USMLE scores.

I will await my Step 1 score in hopes of following this trend--my MCAT was quite strong, while my undergrad and med school performance was decidedly average.

Click to expand...

...the link:
http://www.aamc.org/data/aib/cime/vol3no2.pdf

ttac

Originally posted by ttac
...the link:
http://www.aamc.org/data/aib/cime/vol3no2.pdf

ttac

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In that study, not only is MCAT a good predictor of USMLE scores in general, but ~1/2 of the variance (via correlation=.69) in USMLE I (science) scores is predictable by MCAT score alone! And combining undergrad gpa to MCAT adds nearly nothing for predicting any of the USMLE scores!

This poll seems too fishy. People can put whatever the heck they want. Personally, of the few people I know who scored well, like 245+, they all had good mcat scores, ranging from 34-41.

I had a 24R on my MCAT and got a 91 on step 1. My College GPA was 3.6 double major. I did not get any interviews at all not even one. I applied to about 50 US MD Schools and about 20 DO schools. I ended up going to asia for medical school. Once I got there I studied my a$$ off and graduated 26 out of 260 very smart students. Came home and took Step 1. Not bad huh!

Originally posted by USIMGgrad
I had a 24R on my MCAT and got a 91 on step 1. My College GPA was 3.6 double major. I did not get any interviews at all not even one. I applied to about 50 US MD Schools and about 20 DO schools. I ended up going to asia for medical school. Once I got there I studied my a$$ off and graduated 26 out of 260 very smart students. Came home and took Step 1. Not bad huh!

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a 91 on step 1? what was the 3 digit score?

224

Two more anecdotes, just fyi:

Top score from DUCOM class of 2005: 268 (2 individuals)

Individual #1 (IFM): MCAT: 41 (not sure if this was 41-43, or 41), Step I: 268

Individual #2 (PIL-Problem Based Learning for non DUCOMers): MCAT: Unknown, Step I: 268

ttac
p.s. I voted as Individual #1 in the poll (assuming that he isn't already on SDN)

mcat:28
usmle: 241/97

bump

You guys are neglecting something important here:

The MCAT tests stuff that people had to learn but didn't necessarily enjoy, ie. organic chemistry.

The only thing that stopped me from kicking serious butt on MCAT was that I marked 'C' on practically every organic question (no kidding).

I'm a second year now, and since everything has been more interesting to me I find that learning is easier. I think I'll do pretty well on the boards.

Just some FFT

Originally posted by Hippocrates2007
I think that actually makes sense. People who got below a 30 MCAT wanted to "redeem" themselves and prove they can do good on standardized tests, so they worked like crazy during medschool to get those 240's. People who got a 30-35 MCAT may have been too confident that they could do great on the USMLE as well, so they didn't study that hard. Unfortunately for them, I strongly believe there cannot be a correlation between the MCAT and USMLE because the boards require way much more depth, understanding, and remembering (i.e. memorization). In fact, people who got below a 30 on the MCAT and over a 240 on step 1 are inspirational!

Click to expand...

Should I want to redeem myself for only having got a 29?

I think it's time to bump this. When we have 1 million people contributing to this poll, we'll have more statistical power in terms of seeing the prognosis/correlation.

There also appears to be some sampling bias. The average score has been in the 210s overall for a few years, but the mode here is much higher than that.

The discrepancy on mode in this poll compared to USMLE could be due to carribean, all international med graduates, and DOs taking this exam, "possibly" pulling down the average.

international med grads = some can barely speak any english, let alone medical english.
DOs = no disrespect, but they are more trained to destroy COMLEX, not USMLE.

Originally posted by MedGeek42
There also appears to be some sampling bias. The average score has been in the 210s overall for a few years, but the mode here is much higher than that.

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It would be more APPLICABLE if you measured

a person's BIOLOGICAL SCIENCE subscore and STEP 1 Board Scores. Now we are talking about a positive correlation.

PS--measures science foundation
BS--positive correlation to 1st two years of med school and Step 1
Verbal --- positive correlation to last two years of med school
and step 2.
GPA----Measures heart, and fortitude....

NO WAY SOMEONE got a sub 30 mcat and a 260 on STEP 1. That is complete garbage. Unless those two people got struck by a lightening and they had an enhancement in their long term potentiation.

NO lightning strike....No way!!!

What's next...21 on ACT or 1000 on SAT and a 36 on the MCAT.

OneStrongBro, what about people who got sub-30's on the mcat but didn't even study for the mcat?

Originally posted by OneStrongBro
BS--positive correlation to 1st two years of med school and Step 1
Verbal --- positive correlation to last two years of med school
and step 2.

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Actually I had always heard that verbal reasoning was the most predictive score for Step 1.

How can 3000 ppl viewed this post and only 158 ppl voted? 5% participation is pretty bad. Come on ppl let's see some voting here.

Originally posted by cbc
How can 3000 ppl viewed this post and only 158 ppl voted? 5% participation is pretty bad. Come on ppl let's see some voting here.

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Because some people have either only taken the MCAT or neither test.

-Ice

What about 6 years programs ?... those students haven't taken MCAT and all of them pass and do well ?...

bump

Never say never, never

OneStrongBro said:

It would be more APPLICABLE if you measured

a person's BIOLOGICAL SCIENCE subscore and STEP 1 Board Scores. Now we are talking about a positive correlation.

PS--measures science foundation
BS--positive correlation to 1st two years of med school and Step 1
Verbal --- positive correlation to last two years of med school
and step 2.
GPA----Measures heart, and fortitude....

NO WAY SOMEONE got a sub 30 mcat and a 260 on STEP 1. That is complete garbage. Unless those two people got struck by a lightening and they had an enhancement in their long term potentiation.

NO lightning strike....No way!!!

What's next...21 on ACT or 1000 on SAT and a 36 on the MCAT.

Click to expand...

bump

OneStrongBro said:

It would be more APPLICABLE if you measured

a person's BIOLOGICAL SCIENCE subscore and STEP 1 Board Scores. Now we are talking about a positive correlation.

PS--measures science foundation
BS--positive correlation to 1st two years of med school and Step 1
Verbal --- positive correlation to last two years of med school
and step 2.
GPA----Measures heart, and fortitude....

NO WAY SOMEONE got a sub 30 mcat and a 260 on STEP 1. That is complete garbage. Unless those two people got struck by a lightening and they had an enhancement in their long term potentiation.

NO lightning strike....No way!!!

What's next...21 on ACT or 1000 on SAT and a 36 on the MCAT.

Click to expand...

Sure looks like bigfrank got struck by lightening. Is is just me, or does anybody else think OneStrongBro has a narcasistic personality disorder????

Jalby, I got the "struck by lightning" comment. Yea, I guess I did. I don't know why people put so much weight on the MCAT. It's a test just like the Step I.

If it matters, I didn't study a second for the MCAT and reasonably hard for the Step I.

Bottom Line is this: If you study really hard for both exams, you'll probably do well. If you sit on your ass instead of studying for a particular exam, you will not do well on that one.

Being an insecure, neurotic med student, I think this poll and its attempt to prove association between two stupid standardized exams is insecure, neurotic and not too scientific.

On a more constructive note, I think the poll is flawed, 30-35 MCAT and 240-259 as a range is quite large and represents in my mind a fairly large difference in performace.

Myself: 30/ 251/ ACT: worthless / kindergarten-honors

I don't think this is sensitive enough.



MCAT may be a little bit more of an "IQ" test but they both reward great recall (hard work and a good memory) and a certain degree of intelligence by way of synthesis and analysis.

It is said that BigFrank's score has already been devalued by an industry expert!

Jalby, I know that you are an intelligent person, so I will not question you singling me out. However, I am very disappointed because this came out of no where. Regardless, I will take the higher road, and not fire a collateral offensive response.

As for my original premise, I admit it I was wrong. Still that did not give you a license to diagnose/disparage me as narcissistic. To me this seems kinda out of bounds, because behind my name is a real person with real feelings.

Lastly, this is a Step 1, MCAT thread so let's put our differences aside.

Jalby said:

Sure looks like bigfrank got struck by lightening. Is is just me, or does anybody else think OneStrongBro has a narcasistic personality disorder????

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Hmmm. Why do you think I singled you out???

But on a side note, I do think there is a big correlation between MCAT and USMLE. The question is more of whether the people who took both tests were trying thier hardest for both tests. I know I tried a lot harder for the boards than the MCAT, and it seems like bigfrank did too. I think the correlation is valid for people who tried their hardest on both test. I actually would agree that it is extremely unlikely for someone who would score a 28 on the MCAT (the nat avg for people getting into medical school) who tried hard to get a 260+ on the boards (about 98 percentile) That's a 48 percentile jump, and a hard 48 percentile, not a 24-72 jump.

Who gives a F??? Just do the best you can with what you got and don't let it screw with your life anymore than it already does... Poor Anal bastards.......My personal opinion is that questions on the USMLE or even the MCAT only seem hard if you are not as comfortable with the material as someone who has studied it longer.......After all none of these concepts are difficult.........It's just the sheer volume resulting in lack of adequate exposure that leads to wrong answers..........

USIMGgrad said:

I had a 24R on my MCAT and got a 91 on step 1. My College GPA was 3.6 double major. I did not get any interviews at all not even one. I applied to about 50 US MD Schools and about 20 DO schools. I ended up going to asia for medical school. Once I got there I studied my a$$ off and graduated 26 out of 260 very smart students. Came home and took Step 1. Not bad huh!

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That's some dedication for you! 70 combined med school apps???

I didn't have a stellar MCAT score (29R), so I'm wondering why you think your score was much better on the USMLE than the MCAT. Did you just study a heck of a lot more?

I heard about that study comparing MCATs and Board Scores and it freaked me out b/c I hadnt done too well on my MCATs. I am happy to say that, at least in my case, its all bull. I was slightly below my schools average for the MCAT but am significantly above for Boards.

Deuce 007 MD said:

Trying to figure out how the mcat correlates to step 1.

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Hey deucy...if you are interested in adding COMLEX scores into your study as well...let me know. Might be interesting....

and no, I am not trying to stir up any controversy...just looking to expand a research project already in progress

trouta said:

I heard about that study comparing MCATs and Board Scores and it freaked me out b/c I hadnt done too well on my MCATs. I am happy to say that, at least in my case, its all bull. I was slightly below my schools average for the MCAT but am significantly above for Boards.

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would you mind posting your #'s?

I've been confused about the step one for a long time. As I understand it, they got rid of percentiles so what do the scaled scores mean? If someone takes it in 2004, and gets a scaled score of 200, does that mean that it is comparable to someone who gets a 200 in 2005? I read in Iserson's Getting into a Residency that the scaled scores no longer have any meaning and it would be wrong to compare scaled scores, rather, it has become a pass/fail exam. Does it even matter what you get as long as you pass?