Sticky Situation

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HoboGumm

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I need some straightforward advice.

Previously matched into a FP program- was forced to resign after few months.

Sat out this year, did some research- Currently reapplying for Ophtho- and have a very good chance at matching into Ophtho this year.

Problem is, my history of previous training was not exactly transparent in my application, and was vaguely implied in my personal statement. Wasn't sure WHERE to include it on my application, since I wasn't "currently in training" nor had I "completed training" at the time of submission. My thought process was, if the question comes up at interviews, I'll explain. It only came up at one interview.

My rank list is due very soon- I'm scared that should I match, this omission will be held against me and my offer will be rescinded. Funding issues are another huge worry for me.

If a program really likes me as a candidate, is it possible for them to overlook this and "make it happen" (in regards to funding)? I'm really worried and not sure what to do.


- should I rank the place that knows about my resignation #1?
- will programs rescind my offer?
- are programs willing to cover the extra 2.5 "unfunded" years?
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HoboGumm said:
I need some straightforward advice.

Previously matched into a FP program- was forced to resign after few months.

Sat out this year, did some research- Currently reapplying for Ophtho- and have a very good chance at matching into Ophtho this year.

Problem is, my history of previous training was not exactly transparent in my application, and was vaguely implied in my personal statement. Wasn't sure WHERE to include it on my application, since I wasn't "currently in training" nor had I "completed training" at the time of submission. My thought process was, if the question comes up at interviews, I'll explain. It only came up at one interview.

My rank list is due very soon- I'm scared that should I match, this omission will be held against me and my offer will be rescinded. Funding issues are another huge worry for me.

If a program really likes me as a candidate, is it possible for them to overlook this and "make it happen" (in regards to funding)? I'm really worried and not sure what to do.

- should I rank the place that knows about my resignation #1?
- will programs rescind my offer?
- are programs willing to cover the extra 2.5 "unfunded" years?
Click to expand...

If you were forced to resign out of FP, I would be surprised if your chances of matching into ophtho would be considered by the average medical student dean as 'very good'. It may be that you have had a productive research experience and a strong ophtho mentor backing you... but ophtho program directors have plenty of well qualified applicants beating down their doors.

You should have been transparent about being forced to resign from FP. The MyERAS Application has a section for "Current/Prior Training" where you should have described your experience, institution/location, program director, dates attended, etc. It doesn't say that you needed to have completed training or currently been in training. You're splitting hairs about the exact wording, which is not surprising because it was advantageous for you to have left it out.

Regarding the funding issue, these prior threads may be helpful: here and here.

-AT.
 
the application no longer says current/prior training- as i said- it specifically states "current/completed" training. You may think it's splitting hairs- but it is a big difference.

I'd rather this didn't turn into a debate about my past choices, so please only reply if you are able to provide insight to the circumstances or answer my specific questions.
 
Would think that it would be hard to match into ophtho for most applicants who've been booted from a previous program. Ophtho is competitive. However, stranger things have happened and maybe the OP has a powerful mentor.

If I were the OP, I'd give some serious consideration to ranking the program that knows about this prior training as your #1...if they know and they still rank you, they probably still wanted you. You can assume the other programs don't know right now, since most programs wouldn't assume an applicant misrepresents him/herself in that way. It's probably pretty uncommon for ophtho programs to get an applicant who has been forced to resign from another program. Did you just let them assume you've been doing research for a full 1-2 years? I think it was unwise to not be up front with this. Now you don't know what will happen, even if you do match. if you match, the program may try to get out of the deal since you weren't totally honest with them.
 
Since apparently the application says "Current/Completed Training" you did nothing wrong.
I would not sweat this. If you match the program will mail you a contract and you can sign it. They will have no basis to rescind the contract since you did not commit fraud.
 
At the moment your choice seems to be either to stick it out as it is, or to contact the other places you interviewed and make sure they understand the position.

I'm not sure how much sticking it out is an option for you. Firstly, if the matter is on your conscience now, it's unlikely to go away. And secondly, if you rank a program that hasn't worked out that you had a previous residency, it seems inevitable that they will find out at some point after you match there. What would happen then?

You and the program will be entering into a legally binding contract, which means that things could get very difficult to untangle after the match is made. The terms of the contract you would be entering into should be available to you somewhere for you to check them out now, and it would be worth your doing that, and making sure you understand what you are getting into. But really, the main point about any contract which creates an on-going relationship between two parties is not the contract itself - it is the relationship between the two parties that matters most. Particularly over a period of three years or more, both parties have to be comfortable dealing with each other and keep to what they promised. Will you and the program be comfortable starting such a long relationship of mutual obligations in the situation you describe?

For the programs you haven't discussed the matter with specifically, you could do a "I'm really keen to come to you, but want to be sure you understand the position, as it wasn't expressly mentioned either in my application or interview" letter. If you are a really good candidate, the programs you interviewed at may still want you. If you are borderline, perhaps not so much.

What would be the consequences if you don't get in this year, and need to apply again? It's not a desirable outcome, but is it better than trying to carry on regardless?
 
HoboGumm said:
...Previously matched into a FP program- was forced to resign after few months.

...Currently reapplying for...

Problem is, my history of previous training was not exactly transparent in my application, and was vaguely implied in my personal statement...
Click to expand...
atsai3 said:
...You should have been transparent about being forced to resign from FP. The MyERAS Application has a section for "Current/Prior Training" where you should have described your experience, institution/location, program director, dates attended, etc...
Click to expand...
HoboGumm said:
the application no longer says current/prior training- as i said- it specifically states "current/completed" training. You may think it's splitting hairs- but it is a big difference...
Click to expand...
medpsych1 said:
Since apparently the application says "Current/Completed Training" you did nothing wrong...They will have no basis to rescind the contract since you did not commit fraud.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Long and short, it is splitting hairs and you can get into some difficulties. The way you post the opening of this thread, it is clear you withheld the information by not being completely "transparent" and being "vague".

So, was it on purpose, did you really intend to gloss over and hope the facts were not completely disclosed? I don't know. But, this is what residencies and licensing boards consider.... You DID complete a "few months" of post-graduate training. Thus, said training should have been listed. Completed training does not equal completed residency or graduated residency.

Just based on your own description of being vague and not completely transparent, a program could withdraw a contract and be on firm grounds in doing so. Will they? I don't know. You are in a sticky situation and I encourage you to think long and hard about your next steps. Will your career be based on deception or honesty? At some point, your past will likely come forward. If you do match into optho, a fairly competitive field, they will likely contact your prior program for details. Your licensing, in every state I know requires declaration of prior training and prior licensing and most ask if you resigned or were asked to resign....

Aside from you, the learning point for the pre-meds/med-students/etc.... Completed training means ANY training period not completed residency or graduated from residency. If in doubt, it is best to be completely honest and open about prior residency/training experiences.
 
HoboGumm said:
the application no longer says current/prior training- as i said- it specifically states "current/completed" training. You may think it's splitting hairs- but it is a big difference.

I'd rather this didn't turn into a debate about my past choices, so please only reply if you are able to provide insight to the circumstances or answer my specific questions.
Click to expand...

This is curious. Perhaps I am seeing different materials. I have 6 applications sitting on my desk right now. They belong to U.S. medical students who are currently going through the 2010-2011 application process. All of the MyERAS application packets contain a "Current/Prior Training" section, right underneath "Education" and above "Experience".

-AT.
 
atsai3 said:
This is curious. ...I have 6 applications sitting on my desk right now. ...All of the MyERAS application packets contain a "Current/Prior Training" section, right underneath "Education" and above "Experience"...
Click to expand...
Yeh, I think "we" can try and split hairs about what the actual terminology is. I haven't looked at it recently. But, it doesn't matter if it says "prior training" or "completed training". If you do two months of residency that is regarded as "completed training" or "prior training". Whatever terminology you like, it still is supposed to be reported. If anyone has a concern as to what the exact terminology they are looking at, there probably is a long form of instructions and definitions they can look at... failure to be aware of the specifics of rules does not excuse one from innacurate and/or false information on an ERAS application.
 
OP - I am just a lowly MS4 so take it my advice with a grain of salt. Maybe aPD will see this thread and give you his two cents.

However, in the short period I have been reading the residency forums I have seen 2 separate threads (looking for them, can't find them at the moment) where people were removed from residency and barred from the match for x years because they "misrepresented themselves" on their application.

Misunderstanding or not, you are doing just that. I think you have no choice but to email all the programs to make sure its very clear that you had training in the past, then ride it out and hope for the best. If you don't - they potentially could remove you from their program and report you for a match violation (misrepresenting yourself in your application).

EDIT: Here is one of the threads: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=747444
 
First of all, thank you all for your heartfelt responses. I sincerely appreciate you taking the time out to address my situation. There is a lot of thinking to do on my part, and trust me, this has not been easy on me.

Although I didn't get into the nitty gritty of what happened during my FP months, with as much objectivity as possible I can tell you this: they didn't want me. I rubbed someone (?) the wrong way... and perhaps singled myself out from the very beginning when I sought help/asked questions for certain things and requested to switch my first rotation to an elective (rather than a floor month) in order to get used to the US system and electronic medical records (I had never used EMR before, ever!)

Residency, particularly the first few months, is an adjustment. The transition from med-student to intern is not one that you can learn from reading books- certain institutions recognize the learning curve involved. At no point in time was patient safety compromised, nor was there any negligence on my part. This had nothing to do with patient safety.

Lets just say that my board scores do not reflect the accusations brought against me regarding my "medical knowledge". Someone with 99 will certainly know what an anti-hypertensive medication is (just one of the accusations). Clearly, in the UK medications are distributed under different (generic) names- Obviously, I was not familiar with the brand names available in the US during my first few months... this is the only possible scenario I could think of that lines up with this accusation. This does NOT mean that I do not know what anti-hypertensives are!!

I was a fish out of water. The only non US graduate, the only "minority"- and the only intern who was not from the state--- concomitantly dealing with a hostile environment... so much so, that when entering the resident room to ask, "Hey- where is noon conference today?" the entire room remained silent. Virtually NO-ONE can succeed in such a toxic environment, particularly in the first few fragile & overwhelming months of internship.

In small programs, reputations spread like wildfire... Regardless of my performance during my first rotation- the first day in my second rotation, a time to "start over"- the gossip preceded my performance... and at that point, no matter what- in their eyes YOU CAN DO NO RIGHT.

Funnily enough, all my evaluations were good... nothing glowing, but good. The Assoc. PD actually wrote me an "on the fly" evaluation- which was EXCELLENT (overall score 9/11). The worst score received was "demonstrates ability at appropriate pace". In other words, the accusations and the evaluations just didn't add up.
Lastly, we all know that ancillary staff can make someones life a living hell, should they choose to. This compounded (if not the initial catalyst) my circumstances at my internship... Afterall, hell hath no fury like a womans scorn.

I felt threatened when these seemingly futile (and expected rookie) issues became written up. I felt ostracized. I was confused. I was miserable. There were no plans of remediation, no outline or "goals" to meet by a certain time line. Just one official letter after another... all within a matter of months. No one told me the repercussions of resigning. Rather, they assured me that this would NOT hinder me in any way, should I choose a different specialty. The PD and APD also assured me that none of this would affect licensing in the future. Little did I know...

Residency is the time for learning... unfortunately, the program I matched into seems to have forgotten that.

dragonfly99 said:
Did you just let them assume you've been doing research for a full 1-2 years?
Click to expand...

No, absolutely not. If the question came up... or if they asked about my "timeline" my philosophy was "divulge".
 
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HoboGumm said:
First of all, thank you all for your heartfelt responses. I sincerely appreciate you taking the time out to address my situation. There is a lot of thinking to do on my part, and trust me, this has not been easy on me.

Although I didn't get into the nitty gritty of what happened ...
Click to expand...
I and probably most everyone else wish you the best. It is an understatement to say it is difficult to depart from a residency under less then planned circumstances.

I appreciate that you focused specifically on your current dilemma. The details of the departure are not particularly important within the narrow scope of your issue. Be it worded as "previous" or "completed" training, it is important, particularly for those in the future to understand, the obligation is to disclose all prior training and that "prior" or "previous" in these circumstances is synonymous with ~completed/previously performed training of any formal extent.

Again, I wish you the best and can only enocurage you to think long and hard on how to remedy the current disparity and/or lack of accuracy in your application. It is a tough situation that has a potential to snow ball into a worse scenario, i.e. go from being a resident that resigned to then becoming a resident terminated for deception/fraud/etc... (any number of potential terms).
 
Last edited:
atsai3 said:
This is curious. Perhaps I am seeing different materials. I have 6 applications sitting on my desk right now. They belong to U.S. medical students who are currently going through the 2010-2011 application process. All of the MyERAS application packets contain a "Current/Prior Training" section, right underneath "Education" and above "Experience".

-AT.
Click to expand...
Ophthalmology applications are not delivered by ERAS. They use CAS which is run by the SF Match. Their website does not show you their application form, so I can't see what the questions actually are.

I would be surprised if the app didn't ask for all prior training, but perhaps it doesn't.

To the OP: If the app is supposed to include your prior training, and you didn't put it there, that's application fraud. If an employer decides to make a big deal about it, they can fire you AT ANY TIME. Hence, even if your program finds out about this in 2-3 years, they can still fire you. Of course, at that point they may like/want you enough that they decide to keep you. So, you'll need to decide whether to alert them prior to ranking so that you don't need to worry about this going forward, but take the risk that they decide not to rank you because of it.

This advice is a day late and a dollar short, since the SF Match rank lists closed 19 minutes ago.
 
JackADeli said:
JackADeli said:
...Again, I wish you the best and can only enocurage you to think long and hard on how to remedy the current disparity and/or lack of accuracy in your application. It is a tough situation that has a potential to snow ball into a worse scenario, i.e. go from being a resident that resigned to then becoming a resident terminated for deception/fraud/etc... (any number of potential terms).
Click to expand...
aProgDirector said:
If the app is supposed to include your prior training, and you didn't put it there, that's application fraud. If an employer decides to make a big deal about it, they can fire you AT ANY TIME. Hence, even if your program finds out about this in 2-3 years, they can still fire you...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
:thumbup:

Again wish the OP the best of luck and hope things work out for all concerned. But, I think the point above is important for anyone reading this and contemplating the best approach in submitting a job app, training app, or even a resume/CV. This is not benign and arguing "little white lie" or "I didn't know" usually will not fly. There is such a thing as a lie by omission.
 
medpsych1 said:
Since apparently the application says "Current/Completed Training" you did nothing wrong.
I would not sweat this. If you match the program will mail you a contract and you can sign it. They will have no basis to rescind the contract since you did not commit fraud.
Click to expand...

Aren't you pre-med? It takes a lot of guts to give a resident advice as a pre-med.
 
He probably didn't tell/divulge. I forgot that ophthalmology has a separate match. Assuming that he was a couple years out of training and only stayed in fp residency a few months, maybe the ophthalmology program he matches to won't find out - if he matches. It's probably pretty hard to match into ophthalmology as a FMG, even with high USMLE scores.

It sounds like the OP burned some bridges at the previous residency program. I'm not saying it was fair he got terminated, and I agree dealing with EMR's can be a pain - even if you've used one in the past. However, I think that the lesson is maybe that asking to switch a rotation in the 1st month of residency is probably a no-no. It makes you look like someone who wants to push work on to someone else. Also, you WILL get flack from hospital staff, particularly nurses. And if you think that male docs get a lot of crapola from nurses, you should see the crapola that female docs sometimes get from nurses...LOL.

That said, I think ophtho is a pretty cool and fairly benign residency. If OP can get in, more power to him.

As far as licensing, I think he'll be able to get a license as long as he completes the new residency and does well. Do NOT lie on the state licensing application, however. They will find out and they will bust you.
 
alwaysaangel said:
Here is the poster I linked to talking about the end result of his "misrepresentation."

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=795255

Scary. I would never risk non disclosing something to the program.
Click to expand...

The same issues apply to this disclosure as to the thread from a few months back on reporting publications. Seems like the best, simplest, most transparent policy is to report conservatively (i.e., do report prior training if you are unsure whether it counts as "prior training", don't report a publication if you are unsure that it counts as a "publication", do report criminal charges if you are unsure that they count as "criminal charges").

-AT.
 
I once left my past program experience out of my CV and a program in FP called me, bought me a flight and hotel, and interviewed me. They asked me a question about what i've been doing since med school and i told them I was in residency. the PD was so fiery mad at me that he said he wouldn't even fill the position.

So think twice before leaving out info on your cv or your ERAS application.

Also, I hear that once you get accepted to a program, they will find out about your past program via medicare funding somehow from your first paycheck..im not exactly sure how they find out but they do.

You might want to just call these programs and admit what you did and see what they do from there, take you or leave you. most likely they will consider you gave them false info and leave you. they will find out sooner or later if you don't tell them, and that could get you in even bigger trouble later on once accepted into a program

good luck!!!:luck:
 
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