What do you think of this non-trad scenario I have going on?

Hey guys!

I'm just wondering what you all think of my current situation and future life path as it relates to my chances of being accepted into medical school in 2013 or '14:

UNDERGRAD GPA
I graduated from college in '06 with a 3.96 uGPA overall in Pathologist's Assistant (a very rare major on the undergraduate level). It was very medically oriented obviously, and it's of no surprise that I want to pursue Pathology as my specialty of choice. So I do have very focused goals and plans upon graduating med school.

WORK EXPERIENCE
I worked for 3 years as a Pathology Assistant in a lab and two hospitals. RIGHT NOW, I am unemployed, but I'm going for my Master's in Teaching (high school chemistry and/or physics). So I should have one or two years of full-time teaching under my belt once I apply to med school.

VOLUNTEER EXPERIENCE
I really don't have any volunteer experience to speak of. I did some volunteer research for my toxicology professor during the summer of 2004, but that's it. Perhaps I should work on this aspect of my resume while working as a high school teacher next year? (i.e. being involved in leading extracurricular activities for students, after-school programs, etc.?)

LETTERS OF RECOMMENDATION
As of right now, it's a little hard for me to get letters from people. I may have to form good relationships with fellow teachers and supervisors, so I hope their letters would be acceptable. I could also perhaps get 1 letter from a co-worker in my Pathology Assistant days, too.

MCAT
I haven't taken this yet, but I plan on taking it in 2013 or 2014. I'm really not worried about what I get on it, though.


So given the above and my future plans, would I be in a good position to apply to med school in 2013/14? I'm not going to apply to 10 or more med schools, like a lot of people seem to do. To me, that's insanity. I'm only applying to ONE school (which seems equally insane to do lol): Stony Brook University, Early Decision Program. That college is in my home state of NY (at a convenient location relative to me), and from what I hear, it looks favorably upon its own residents. So I may have a good shot at it based on that fact, too.

The MCAT is really what I'm worried about. Although I feel that if I just get minimum 7s across each subtest, I may still have a shot at getting into SBU. Something is telling me to just disregard whatever I get on the MCAT and still apply no matter what to see what happens. If I get rejected, fine...I'll still have my career as a full-time chemistry/physics teacher to fall back on.

What do you guys think about all this?

torshi said:

GPA is good
clinical volunteer or shadowing would be a must.

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As for this part, what do you mean by "shadowing"? During my senior year of college, I was required to do an internship whereby I had to rotate through three different hospitals, 40 hours a week, unpaid, in order to complete my degree. During that time, I was interacting with quite a few pathologists. My 3 years of work experience in that field also put me into contact with many doctors.

Keep in mind that in pathology, you don't really have much contact with actual patients. A pathologist is literally "the doctor's doctor." This isn't to say that I don't like interacting with people; of course I do. It's just that the nature of that particular specialty has the least amount of contact with actual patients.

And by being a high school science teacher, I think that would serve as a really great correlation to medicine (students = patients, etc.). I think it would be foolish if I don't apply to med school down the line...

bucks2010 said:

OK.... this is a terrible attitude to have. What part of your application makes you think an adcom is just going to overlook an atrocious MCAT score. A 21 is a far cry from something that will give you a shot at MD schools. If nothing else, it will just detract from your GPA (your major doesn't look so difficult if your MCAT shows that your scientific aptitude leaves much to be desired). People with 27's and 28's get rejected all the time. The national average for acceptants is creeping towards 32 - check the statistics. What part of you makes you think that you're above all of this?

I think you may not be taking your future medical career as seriously as you need to. If you were, you would realize that the MCAT is a very important piece of your application and, along with your GPA, is representative of your capability to succeed in a medical school curriculum. Doing well on it requires many hours of study and practice.

Additionally, I'm not sure what exactly your job entails, but if it's just sitting in the path lab all day, you may need to seriously consider gaining some broader clinical exposure through volunteering at a free clinic, etc. and shadowing physicians in a few different specialities (1 being primary care). You need enough to be able to demonstrate that you know what medical practice entails - this includes exposure to patients.

An application to medical school should not be attempted just to "see what happens." You have to feel confident in your application. If you don't get in (and only applying to one place significantly decreases the odds you will be accepted), when applying the next year you will have to indicate that you are a reapplicant, and the committee will expect to see a significant improvement in your application to merit consideration. So don't throw an application out there without putting some serious work into it and being confident in it.

Sorry to sound harsh - I'm just trying to let you know that the application to medical school isn't a process to be taken lightly. Nationally, only around 50% of applicants get in each year, and with a sub-par MCAT score and a very narrow exposure to medicine, you could easily be riding the wrong side of that curve.

That said, if you take the time to adequately prepare for the MCAT, do well on it, and can demonstrate an understanding of clinical practice through your experiences, then you have a very good shot at gaining acceptance.

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Thanks for your input, as harsh as it does come off. Of course I take this very seriously, but I'm not "risking my life" to get into med school, like so many other pre-meddies do. I just happen to bear any type of burden with ease. That's just my nature, and it's my personality. That does NOT mean that I don't take it seriously. Let me make that distinction exceptionally clear.

I do feel confident that I'll get in, regardless of whether or not I have any clinical exposure to patients. If that alone will break my application, I feel truly sorry for the med school process in general, and for the entire field of medicine overall. As for the MCAT, I never put much stock in standardized tests, as I have a very negative opinion about them (which that negative attitude is further being supported through my teaching degree currently).

You have all those pre-meds doing the traditional college route, and they're all freaking out because they have nothing else going on in their lives except school and trying to get in. That's way too stressful. For me, I'll at least have teaching to fall back on. I figure that by me applying to only one school, that's going to really test out my destiny. If I'm truly meant to be a doctor, I'll get in. If not, then teaching is my permanent career.

And if I don't get into SBU, you can bet every cent you're worth that I'll be telling my students to avoid that college at all costs...including the field of medicine. Granted, every student in my high school classes won't be going into medicine or to SBU, but imagine if they were....That would be about 100 to 150 students every year (if I'm teaching about 5 periods a year with 30 students in each class) who are being influenced to not pursue medical school and/or SBU. And believe me, high school teachers can have enormous influence over students' thinking.

This would be my payback if I don't get in. As Newton's 3rd Law states, "Every action has an equal and opposite reaction." I think this is a win-win for me either way...

bucks2010 said:

(your major doesn't look so difficult if your MCAT shows that your scientific aptitude leaves much to be desired).


Additionally, I'm not sure what exactly your job entails, but if it's just sitting in the path lab all day, you may need to seriously consider gaining some broader clinical exposure through volunteering at a free clinic, etc. and shadowing physicians in a few different specialities (1 being primary care). You need enough to be able to demonstrate that you know what medical practice entails - this includes exposure to patients.

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Two further things I have to comment on:
The MCAT does NOT demonstrate overall scientific aptitude, that's for sure: 1) It doesn't cover every single aspect of the sciences being tested, and 2) doing poorly on the MCAT does not mean that my undergraduate major was difficult or easy. What ridiculous type of thinking is that??? If anything, the MCAT tests overall reading comprehension and critical thinking more than anything else. (and how "shrewd" you can be by putting yourself into the test-makers' minds).

Secondly, how can one go about "shadowing" a primary care physician? It seems like you'd have to know somebody or have connections in order to do that. Having clinical experience with patients as a necessary and required component to be admitted into med school is a load of BS. Sure, it's wonderful to have on your resume, but it should not be mandatory. Isn't that what med school is all about, though? To gain that clinical exposure in the first place??? As far as I'm concerned, I'd have to write a really stellar personal essay, explaining how my interactions with students equate to dealing with patients. The correlations are a lot more similar than you might think...I would also have to nail the interview, too (which going on interviews is something I actually enjoy doing and I'm pretty good at those).

bucks2010 said:

1. Really? On what do you base this confidence? Just curious.

2. It doesn't matter what you think of standardized tests. The MCAT sets a bar for what it takes to get in. Adcoms don't care what you think of the bar, because if you don't meet it, there are thousands of other applicants that do. You need to get over your attitude about the merits of standardized tests and do what's required of you. It's one of the 10^3 hoops you will need to jump through to become a practicing physician. Take it in stride.

3. Think what you want about destiny. If you don't get in, it will most likely be because you didn't put the work in to do it - not because you weren't destined for it. You have to be ambitious.

4. Are you trolling? This is the exact opposite of what a good HS teacher's mindset should be. You should want the best for your students - not be out to get "revenge" on a medical school because they didn't let you in with your less-than-stellar application.

Look man I'm trying not to be harsh. You have to realize that a competitive application is within your reach. But your posts seem to indicate a lack of drive in yourself - like you don't care if you get in. If you're so lackadaisical, what makes you think an adcom will think you can get through 4 years of rigorous medical education? What makes you think that you can do it?

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Due to my ambition and confidence, that's what makes me KNOW that I can do it (besides my ability to rigorously endure academic work). Yes, at times, I do give off over-confidence, which I do try to tone down here and there. Maybe I'm being a bit overzealous with this and underestimating the whole process, I don't know. But I do know that I'd be very stupid to not at least apply.

Just going by the look of me and how I act, people automatically think "doctor." Even when I was working in hospitals a few years ago, people would just come up to me and say "Doctor, what do you think about...." Even when just visiting RELATIVES in the hospital (my grandfather just recently had an above-the-knee amputation performed), a doctor came up to me and asked "Are you a doctor?" You may not believe in destiny or fate, but I sure as hell do...It's these little things that send me subtle messages.

bucks2010 said:

5. Thing is, you have no clue if you interactions with students equates to patients. Why? Because you've never been around patients. This is the buzzkill for your application. You THINK your experiences correlate well with medicine - but how do you KNOW? This is why you need clinical experience. It's much easier to explain how your love of teaching led to your involvement in a free clinic and fueled your desire to practice medicine than trying to write about what medicine is like without actually knowing.

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I guess we'll just have to see what happens. For me to do any sort of shadowing, it will have to be during the summer when school isn't in session. I'll also have to decide on whether to teach summer school or not as well (being how doing that is an extra incentive). The summer of 2012 seems like the best time for me to do shadowing, so I'll look into it then.

Right now, I'm doing my master's in teaching and taking Physics at my local community college to complete my pre-reqs. Then I'll take Physics 2 this summer. Just to get those pre-reqs out of the way will feel amazing, that's for sure...regardless of whether or not I wind up applying to med school anyway.

bucks2010 said:

It's a good thing to have confidence. But the key for you here is to do something with it. It's akin to thinking, "I'm destined to be a pro football player" yet continuing to sit on the couch and eat Cheetos. Destiny isn't going to make an acceptance letter appear in your hand tomorrow, and neither will a 4.0 GPA and 15 MCAT. You know what you have to do. Study well for the MCAT. Despite what people make it seem, it's not an incredibly difficult test if you study for it well. Get some clinical exposure so you can better articulate your desire for a medical career (at the very least get some shadowing done). Be confident but humble. Humble here means realizing no one is exempted from having to jump through hoops like the MCAT.

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You're right, you're right. I mean, hell, all I need is to take a test that takes up about 6 hours of my time and to only put in enough shadowing that equates to working a full-time job for one or two weeks. When seen from that perspective, it really doesn't seem so bad after all if that's all I need! Thanks for the advice!! It's all in how you perceive it 😀

As for the "rigor" of the test itself, I have pretty decent test-taking stamina. I took two New York State teaching exams last month which lasted from 8AM to 5PM all day. I also took the GRE back in 2006. Scored a 1320 on that. Although the test results are "invalid" after 5 years, I still have a copy of my score report, and I'll send that to the medical school too. Couldn't hurt.

Well, something veryyyy interesting has just developed: I decided to completely withdraw from my master's in teaching and pursue entry into medical school full-time. I just couldn't take the panging feelings that gave me so many sleepless nights!

I also can't ignore the initial impressions that people tend to make of me when it comes to what I do for a living. First thought they think of is "doctor" when they see me. I just give off that vibe naturally, so I have to follow where nature leads!!

So right now, I'm still living at home (thankfully), no job, and I'm taking Physics I. Physics II will follow this summer while starting my MCAT studying. Figure I'll take the MCAT later this year or early next year, then apply for med school to hopefully get in for the 2013 entering class.

That's the plan of attack. Now here's the question: how do I get that shadowing experience? Please help me out with details here. I'll also start doing volunteer work at charities or non-profits starting this summer, but the "shadowing" I hear so much about seems to be important.

A few people told me I can't do that because of HIPAA regulations being how I'm not technically a student. Is that true? Or is there a way I can shadow still somehow?

bucks2010 said:

Glad to hear about the change in plans. You will be better served by just focusing on pre-reqs vs. doing the master's as well.

The only way I've found to get shadowing is by cold-calling. Google some practices for your specialty of interest, call them up, explain yourself briefly, and ask if Dr. So and so would be willing to let you shadow for a day or two.

The key is to get in touch with the MD through his secretary or whoever else. If you just contact some person in administration in the hospital it will be too easy to get caught up in red tape, etc. I called a CT practice in town and they just said to call the day before I wanted to come in and to bring a TB test when I came in. Super easy.

Practices/offices will vary on their response to you. Some docs are too busy, some offices will give you some HIPAA explanation, others will be very easy to get in and shadow. Just make some calls until you get a few hits.

Also, you will need to get a TB test. I got one for free at my university's health center. You can also get one at Wa-Marts, etc. with mini clinics for like $25.

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Well, the TB test is no problem. I got mine when I was going for a Ph.D. in L.A. last year at around October, so it's very recent. I hope they'd accept it. [By the way, yes I was accepted into a PhD program, but I withdrew...then I went to the master's in teaching and withdrew from that lol. That doesn't look too good on the surface, but my desire to pursue medical school is directly related to those withdrawals. lots of inner turmoil over deciding to pursue this, etc. so I hope med schools won't look down on that!] If it comes off as being inconsistent and I don't get accepted, then I might as well be jobless for the rest of my life or commit suicide. Yes, this is that big of a deal...

But anyways...thanks for your advice on the shadowing. All it takes is a day or two though? That's the time requirement for whatever specialty you want to shadow?

bucks2010 said:

The average amount of shadowing most pre-meds have is 50-60 hrs. spread between a few specialties. So you could pick a few and spend a couple days with each. Personally, 2 consecutive days is the most time I would spend with one doc - more than that and I'd feel like I was "wearing out the welcome", so to speak.

And btw, you can spread out this shadowing however you like, and it can be done as close to application time as you want. It's not something that you ideally need to start a long time before applying, as opposed to volunteering somewhere.

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OK, Bucks, that's really great advice. I thank you so much again for helping me formulate my attack strategy for getting in. Talking with you and putting my strategy down on paper is very cathartic for me. I'm going to shoot for 6 to 8 total days of shadowing (48 to 64 hours), and I'll do that sometime before summer 2012. Volunteering for charities or health-related organizations/clinics will begin later this summer.

Here's my overall strategy:

Finish Physics I - ends May 10th
Take Physics II - summer session (May 23rd to June 30th)
Volunteering Opportunities - from this July to 2013
Shadowing 6 to 8 days - anytime from this summer to next summer
Study for MCAT - this April to summer 2012
Take MCAT - anywhere from April to August 2012
Apply to med school - fall 2012
Enter med school - fall 2013

The MCAT is really the most difficult part of this whole process (for me at least). I'm going to purchase all the materials this weekend, and I intend on devoting full-time studying for this (bits and pieces while taking Physics, then full-blown studying every day from this summer until next year).

I've been out of school since 2006, and I'm finding that I have to re-learn almost all of bio and organic chem (while studying new topics that were never covered in college). Physics I'm currently taking, so that should be easy. And chemistry, I basically studied that for my state teaching exam (which I passed), so that should come relatively easy for me, too. Verbal is just practice and more practice...I don't think you can technically "study" for that section.

So that's pretty much it. I feel like I'm sitting on a ticking time-bomb for the MCAT....however much I absorb between now and summer 2012 is the best that I can do. I only want to take this test once (twice if really necessary). After that, I'm applying to med school regardless of what I get on it.

This is all I have going for me right now, and it's my sole focus. I've got enough money saved up to live off of while staying at home with family and not working until 2013, so things shouldn't be financially desperate for me. I COULD get a part-time job just to offset some of my expenses, but I don't technically need one right now. I'd feel that it would interfere with my studying anyway.

Any other thoughts about this (i.e. if this is a good strategy, further points, comments, etc.) are most welcome!