Institutional Action

Really the only thing that schools receive (after you are accepted) is your official transcript, so I am assuming that if you had some sort of institutional action it would be noted on there. Just order an official one for yourself to see what they would see. You can't use the unofficial ones though because those are usually a little different, and may not have the information you are looking for. If he said that no one would ever find out though, I am assuming it isn't documented on your transcript.

Some schools also request a disciplinary record forwarded to them directly from the Dean of Students or equivalent person at your school. This would have all your academic violations, etc.

Total180 said:

Really the only thing that schools receive (after you are accepted) is your official transcript, so I am assuming that if you had some sort of institutional action it would be noted on there. Just order an official one for yourself to see what they would see. You can't use the unofficial ones though because those are usually a little different, and may not have the information you are looking for. If he said that no one would ever find out though, I am assuming it isn't documented on your transcript.

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way false. things like plagiarism may not be recorded on a transcript but it'll be on the student's files. even being accused but found innocent, its recorded. you have to sign a waiver that allows med schools to actually request that info from the undergrad institution. the only difference between different schools would be if they also include dorm infractions.

op, you would pretty much need to ask to see the undergraduate dean and have him look into your file. also, if they originally promised they wouldnt disclose it to schools, hopefully you have some sort of evidence because their outright lying can be followed up on in civil court.

S6MD said:

It's not an academic violation -- it's labeled as a conduct violation. Wasn't a big deal, I wrote an essay reflection, and I completed some volunteer hours.

Is there a way I could see this disciplinary record? It keeps me up @ night not knowing! I just want to see what a medical school COULD obtain, and if it contains this incident, then I'll report it on AMCAS. It's just the Assistant Dean of Students made me feel really comfortable that the incident won't be reported to anyone. It would really suck if he were "mistaken".

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Doesn't matter what it is, semantics. It will be on there. Any disciplinary stuff will be on that report. I don't know if you can get a hold of it, I doubt it. Maybe you can try asking your Dean of Students.

donttazemebro said:

way false. things like plagiarism may not be recorded on a transcript but it'll be on the student's files. even being accused but found innocent, its recorded. you have to sign a waiver that allows med schools to actually request that info from the undergrad institution. the only difference between different schools would be if they also include dorm infractions.

op, you would pretty much need to ask to see the undergraduate dean and have him look into your file. also, if they originally promised they wouldnt disclose it to schools, hopefully you have some sort of evidence because their outright lying can be followed up on in civil court.

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Gah. Sorry for posting wrong info. The only thing that has been requested from DCOM are my transcripts...so I just assumed that anything bad would be noted on there. I would think that if you were going to get a permanent mark on your record you would have to sign something...I mean if people get written up at work we have to sign something...and that doesn't even mean anything.

S6MD said:

although i suppose i should report it anyway since AMCAS specifically says to report things even if they have been erased from your record...

what should i do?!

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You should follow the rules and report it. Trust me it will be awkward if you are accepted and they have access to all your records and find this little gem you didn't mention. By awkward I mean extremely bad for you. Not to mention along the app process you are required to sign so many forms saying you are not misrepresenting yourself, etc. I don't see why this is so hard man, you messed up, owe up to it and move on.

you have access to your complete educational record (your "file") unless you waived the right to view it (e.g. you signed a waiver for letters of recommendation). i would speak to the registrar and start there. you might get referred to another dept.

Face facts: the institution took an action against you and required you to write an essay and do community service. You are obligated to report this on your AMCAS application Failure to do so is dishonest and could be held against you (to the point of recinding an offer of admission). Don't add dishonesty to whatever else you've done. Report it and sleep at night.

S6MD said:

i find it very likely that if i were to call the registrar's office and/or the office of the dean of students, they would verify that no institutional action has been taken against me. if this is the case and the university literally says that no institutional action has been taken against me, should i still report it?

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It sounds like you are trying to rationalize not reporting this issue to AMCAS and you are fishing for even just one person to suggest that you shouldn't.

If you are set on taking this risk, then do so. But if/when you are caught in your lie/omission, then you will have potentially thrown away all of your hard work.

Otherwise, reread LizzyM's post and heed her advice.

S6MD said:

i find it very likely that if i were to call the registrar's office and/or the office of the dean of students, they would verify that no institutional action has been taken against me. if this is the case and the university literally says that no institutional action has been taken against me, should i still report it?

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It would be better to send an email, that way the response is in writing. If they say you do not have an IA, then I would not report an IA on AMCAS. If something were to be brought up later, then I would produce the email as evidence of why the incident was not reported as an IA. Seems pretty simple, and straight forward, to me.

If your own school thought that it wasn't a big enough deal to go on your "permanent record", then why bother reporting it?

If they won't find out, don't report it.

S6MD said:

It's not an academic violation -- it's labeled as a conduct violation. Wasn't a big deal, I wrote an essay reflection, and I completed some volunteer hours.

Is there a way I could see this disciplinary record? It keeps me up @ night not knowing! I just want to see what a medical school COULD obtain, and if it contains this incident, then I'll report it on AMCAS. It's just the Assistant Dean of Students made me feel really comfortable that the incident won't be reported to anyone. It would really suck if he were "mistaken".

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I'd suggest emailing the DOS/Office of Student Conduct and confirm whether this misconduct should be reported as an "Institutional Action". Explain to him/her how AMCAS defines IA and ask him if it fits. Aside from LizzyM and without providing us more details specifically about WHAT type of misconduct it was, I'm not sure if we can give you the most accurate answer. On that note, LizzyM did provide you with a very good answer--report it so you don't get screwed in the end.

I also think she is right; regardless of what kind of action it wa. A conduct violation can be considered an Institutional Action.

See --> http://web.jhu.edu/bin/s/i/Institutional.Action.pdf

rHinO1 said:

It would be better to send an email, that way the response is in writing. If they say you do not have an IA, then I would not report an IA on AMCAS. If something were to be brought up later, then I would produce the email as evidence of why the incident was not reported as an IA. Seems pretty simple, and straight forward, to me.

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irrelevant. AMCAS is very specific about the fact that you must report any and all history of institutional action. If OP was never the subject of an IA, then there is nothing to report. But if it happened, and the school characterized it as an IA at the time, then it must be reported to AMCAS, even if the school would never report it otherwise.

OP needs to clarify with the "student affairs officer" at school what actually happened, but it sounds pretty reportable to me.

EDIT: OP, please don't think you're screwed. Report it, be honest about what happened and how your school handled it, and i'd be truly surprised if it hurt you at all in gaining acceptances. It's academic dishonesty that will really screw you.

rHinO1 said:

It would be better to send an email, that way the response is in writing. If they say you do not have an IA, then I would not report an IA on AMCAS. If something were to be brought up later, then I would produce the email as evidence of why the incident was not reported as an IA. Seems pretty simple, and straight forward, to me.

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gravitywave said:

irrelevant. AMCAS is very specific about the fact that you must report any and all history of institutional action. If OP was never the subject of an IA, then there is nothing to report. But if it happened, and the school characterized it as an IA at the time, then it must be reported to AMCAS, even if the school would never report it otherwise.

OP needs to clarify with the "student affairs officer" at school what actually happened, but it sounds pretty reportable to me.

EDIT: OP, please don't think you're screwed. Report it, be honest about what happened and how your school handled it, and i'd be truly surprised if it hurt you at all in gaining acceptances. It's academic dishonesty that will really screw you.

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I'm not sure how you interpreted my post, but we said the exact same thing (see bolded). Except, I added to get it in writing to cover all of the OPs bases.

S6MD said:

@asyouwereatrio: thank you for posting that link to the JH explanation. I think, after that, I'm definitely going to report it.

@gravitywave: yeah, while no one wants to be disadvantaged because of an IA, I'm hopeful that I can explain it in a light that shows tremendous personal growth (I do think a lot of good came from it).

Anyway, thanks for all the suggestions. Good luck to anyone applying 2012!

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I had an IA, which I reported on amcas. I was direct, to the point, and said I believed my actions since then have demonstrated I had learned from my mistakes. I did just fine this cycle.

rHinO1 said:

I'm not sure how you interpreted my post, but we said the exact same thing (see bolded). Except, I added to get it in writing to cover all of the OPs bases.

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OK. i wanted to be clear that how the school characterizes it now isn't important. what's important is how it was considered at the time of infraction. the distinction is important because i could just see the registrar saying "I don't see anything on your file," when in fact it's the history that's the issue, and that could have been expunged somehow in the meantime through institutional policies.

gravitywave said:

OK. i wanted to be clear that how the school characterizes it now isn't important. what's important is how it was considered at the time of infraction. the distinction is important because i could just see the registrar saying "I don't see anything on your file," when in fact it's the history that's the issue, and that could have been expunged somehow in the meantime through institutional policies.

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Oh, ok. I agree that how the action was originally classified is what matters, and I didn't mean to imply otherwise. A conversation with the dean that resulted in writing an essay, does not necessarily mean it was an IA (although it could be). If the dean says it was not an IA, at any time, then I would not report it. No need to offer information that is not requested, or relevent, especially if it could cast a negative light on the OPs app.

rHinO1 said:

Oh, ok. I agree that how the action was originally classified is what matters, and I didn't mean to imply otherwise. A conversation with the dean that resulted in writing an essay, does not necessarily mean it was an IA (although it could be). If the dean says it was not an IA, at any time, then I would not report it. No need to offer information that is not requested, or relevent, especially if it could cast a negative light on the OPs app.

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definitely and your point about CYAing with something in writing if the dean says it's not reportable (wasn't ever an IA) is well made, too.

rHinO1 said:

Oh, ok. I agree that how the action was originally classified is what matters, and I didn't mean to imply otherwise. A conversation with the dean that resulted in writing an essay, does not necessarily mean it was an IA (although it could be). If the dean says it was not an IA, at any time, then I would not report it. No need to offer information that is not requested, or relevent, especially if it could cast a negative light on the OPs app.

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gravitywave said:

definitely and your point about CYAing with something in writing if the dean says it's not reportable (wasn't ever an IA) is well made, too.

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In the article I posted, http://web.jhu.edu/bin/s/i/Institutional.Action.pdf, there's also the issue that AMCAS technically requires you to report all actions, whether reportable or not. It does become a "grey" area at this point; you can report an unreported incident or risk not reporting something that could one day be revealed "by accident' if the DOS decides to write a Dean's Letter including this incident (for whatever reason).

The Hopkins form is quite clear. If you fail to report it and they find out, they will likely throw you out. You didnt report it, you read the form, you signed it falsely, the end. (of your career in medicine)
My medical school has only one punishment for lying, cheating, or stealing. Adios amigo.
It happens every year.

Asyouwereatrio said:

In the article I posted, http://web.jhu.edu/bin/s/i/Institutional.Action.pdf, there's also the issue that AMCAS technically requires you to report all actions, whether reportable or not. It does become a "grey" area at this point; you can report an unreported incident or risk not reporting something that could one day be revealed "by accident' if the DOS decides to write a Dean's Letter including this incident (for whatever reason).

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This is actually not correct. It says you have to report all IAs, even if they were deleted from your transcript. Whether the university took action against the OP, or not, can only be answered by his/her university.

gravitywave said:

definitely and your point about CYAing with something in writing if the dean says it's not reportable (wasn't ever an IA) is well made, too.

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The email proving the Dean's misunderstanding, vs deliberate deception (which you could never prove), will be little consolation when your on your new path as a nurse. If you think a civil jury is going to award you $6m in lost wages as compensation for lying on your application (with clearly defined definitions) and getting caught, you're delusional.
"But the Dean said it's not on my record, whine whine."
Dismissed.

IlDestriero said:

The email proving the Dean's misunderstanding, vs deliberate deception (which you could never prove), will be little consolation when your on your new path as a nurse. If you think a civil jury is going to award you $6m in lost wages as compensation for lying on your application (with clearly defined definitions) and getting caught, you're delusional.
"But the Dean said it's not on my record, whine whine."
Dismissed.

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It isn't about deception. I think you're making a giant leap that the OPs incident was considered an IA. If the dean informs the OP he/she was never subject to an IA, whould you report it anyway?

Of course, if he says he/she was subject to an IA, then they absolutely have to report it.

rHinO1 said:

This is actually not correct. It says you have to report all IAs, even if they were deleted from your transcript. Whether the university took action against the OP, or not, can only be answered by his/her university.

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Well the OP had to write an essay and do community service. Sounds like the university took action to me. If he had politely told the Dean to kiss his backside, he would have been suspended or expelled, no? If not why would he even meet with the dean, let alone do the community service? No one would.

I think this brings up the question of what is an IA, though. Cheating, drugs, alcohol, etc. are all obvious examples of things that might cause an IA. However, at what pt has the institution "committed an action" against the applicant? To take an example story I recall seeing on SDN awhile back (with some modifications) if a student were in a study room, left his things there, and came back later and a girl had taken the room and then called campus security on him when he offered to share the room with her. Let's say he simply stood up for himself to campus security but was compliant when asked to leave; however, campus security still took down his name and student ID but did nothing beyond take down that information (i.e., no "write a paper," community service, instructions to apologize to the girl, suspension, etc. -- no "action" persay); is this still an IA? Is every neutral to negative contact with security or an administrator an IA? At what point do you draw the line?

rHinO1 said:

It isn't about deception. I think you're making a giant leap that the OPs incident was considered an IA. If the dean informs the OP he/she was never subject to an IA, whould you report it anyway?

Of course, if he says he/she was subject to an IA, then they absolutely have to report it.

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If I f'ed up and the Dean said "do this or leave" I would report it. The linked clarification is pretty clear.
Spin it into a positive. We're not talking about cheating or robbing a liquor store.

IlDestriero said:

The email proving the Dean's misunderstanding, vs deliberate deception (which you could never prove), will be little consolation when your on your new path as a nurse. If you think a civil jury is going to award you $6m in lost wages as compensation for lying on your application (with clearly defined definitions) and getting caught, you're delusional.
"But the Dean said it's not on my record, whine whine."
Dismissed.

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AMCAS is pretty clear that applicants are permitted to rely on official statements from their designated undergraduate officers as to what is, and is not, an IA. I'd think that would be pretty solid evidence in the event that your medical school started making trouble for you over it.

gravitywave said:

AMCAS is pretty clear that applicants are permitted to rely on official statements from their designated undergraduate officers as to what is, and is not, an IA. I'd think that would be pretty solid evidence in the event that your medical school started making trouble for you over it.

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Follow the AMCAS definitions to the letter, understand the question and answer honestly, err on the side of caution, and you should be fine.
There was a post not too long ago about a resident thrown out of his program and banned from the match forever due to similar "interpretations" of what is a clear question. "Have you EVER been... Even if it did not lead to a conviction, etc..."
You don't want to be that guy.

I mean this situation sounds a little bit different if weird. If the dean didn't ask to talk to you, why'd you go?

now that it's clear what OP did, i think it's also clear that this is not a big deal, not on the level of a criminal record anyway.

when you write about this, i'd think you'd want to include the part about you turning up to the meeting with the Dean, that looks good. don't talk about the other people who didn't show up (no negativity, ever!), talk instead about how you wanted to make things right after the fact.

seriously, adcoms will laugh and move on if you do this right. it sounds really ridiculous.

drizzt3117 said:

I mean this situation sounds a little bit different if weird. If the dean didn't ask to talk to you, why'd you go?

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Yeah, It doesn't make much sense.
An elective essay and community service just because it's the right thing to do??? No consequences for saying "noted" and walking away???
I would have "elected" to go to the gym.

rHinO1 said:

This is actually not correct. It says you have to report all IAs, even if they were deleted from your transcript. Whether the university took action against the OP, or not, can only be answered by his/her university.

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I agree with you completely that the University is the best place to get an answer; however, I would consider what the university did an "Institutional Action" due to a conduct violation. The OP already called it a violation and AMCAS requires you to report all reported/unreported violations of conduct. They punished him for it by making him perform community service/writing a reflection essay, which as a former Student Conduct Officer at my University, are "actions" that the University can make against students for misconduct. Regardless of whether the University will report it in his file or not, an Institutional Action was made against the OP for his misconduct. He needs to report it if he wants to be 100% truthful.

apumic said:

I think this brings up the question of what is an IA, though. Cheating, drugs, alcohol, etc. are all obvious examples of things that might cause an IA. However, at what pt has the institution "committed an action" against the applicant? To take an example story I recall seeing on SDN awhile back (with some modifications) if a student were in a study room, left his things there, and came back later and a girl had taken the room and then called campus security on him when he offered to share the room with her. Let's say he simply stood up for himself to campus security but was compliant when asked to leave; however, campus security still took down his name and student ID but did nothing beyond take down that information (i.e., no "write a paper," community service, instructions to apologize to the girl, suspension, etc. -- no "action" persay); is this still an IA? Is every neutral to negative contact with security or an administrator an IA? At what point do you draw the line?

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I personally don't believe the situation you presented regarding campus security. That sounds like simply a misunderstanding b/w two people regarding who can be in that study room.

IAs would be any action made by the Office of Student Conduct (or whatever term your University uses) against a student for a violation of acceptable "student conduct" (usually in a contract signed by the student upon entering the University). Examples can include, but not be limited to: cheating, stealing, sexual harassment, theft, streaking, disturbing the peace, drunk and disorderly conduct, etc. Once the University gets involved, then it should be reported.

EDIT: Just read what the OP did. That should be reported, but it's SO trivial that no one will actually care. "Kids will be kids"

IlDestriero said:

Follow the AMCAS definitions to the letter, understand the question and answer honestly, err on the side of caution, and you should be fine.
There was a post not too long ago about a resident thrown out of his program and banned from the match forever due to similar "interpretations" of what is a clear question. "Have you EVER been... Even if it did not lead to a conviction, etc..."
You don't want to be that guy.

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This .

Two points from the amcas instruction manual:

first, conduct violations can be IAs
second, it tells applicants to check with their university if they have had an IA.

https://www.aamc.org/students/download/131750/data/2012amcasinstructionmanual.pdf
see page 29

Institutional Action
[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]You must answer ..Yes [FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]to this question if you were ever the recipient of any institutional action resulting from unacceptable academic performance or a conduct violation, even if such action did not interrupt your enrollment or require you to withdraw. You must answer ..Yes [FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]even if the action does not appear on or has been deleted from your official transcripts due to institutional policy or personal petition. .
[FONT=Arial,Arial]If you answer ..Yes, [FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]you may use the space provided to explain; this space is 1325 characters or approximately one-quarter of a page in length. .
.[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]If you are not certain whether or not you have been the subject of an institutional action, contact the registrar, student affairs officer, or other appropriate party at the institution for confirmation of your record. ..[FONT=Arial,Arial]
.[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]Failure to provide accurate information in answering this question or, if applicable, in completing the form provided by the school, will result in an investigation. Medical schools require you to answer this question accurately and provide all relevant information. Medical schools understand that many individuals learn from the past and emerge stronger as a result. Full disclosure will enable the medical schools to more effectively evaluate this information within the context of your credentials. .
[FONT=Arial,Arial]Applicants who become the subject of an institutional action after certifying and submitting the AMCAS application ..[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]must ..[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]inform their designated medical school(s) within ten (10) business days of the date of the occurrence. .
.

While I think you should definitely find out what your Dean says about whether it was an IA or not, it does seem like it was an IA. You had to write an essay and do community service since you had to do these things there are probably records that you completed them and why you needed to.

I was in a pretty similar situation as you last year. I had 2 IAs that I wasn't sure if were on my record or not (1 was for underage drinking because of a party I was at getting broken up by police, and another was a fire safety violation). I just reported both events on AMCAS just in case schools somehow got this information. I think being upfront about these things is the best policy. You wont have to worry about being 'found out' and I really don't think schools care about it as long as it was something little. At the couple interviews where these situations were brought up the interviewers seemed pretty amused by them and told me not to worry about it (in other interviews it wasn't even brought up). Basically, I think you should just put it on, I don't think anyone is going to say you don't deserve to be a doctor because you played a stupid prank in your dorm.

The only thing that makes serving on the "IA" subcommittee tolerable is the amusing anecdotes that bring to mind our own college pranks (my dorm mates and I went downstairs at night and removed all the doors from the toilet stalls and stashed them in the bathtub... fortunately, it did not rise to the level of an institutional action).

Report it. We need the laughs. It will not be counted against you.

So to piggback on this thread, what is the proper way to report an IA on AMCAS? Should you ALWAYS attach a copy of the infraction?

MacVA said:

So to piggback on this thread, what is the proper way to report an IA on AMCAS? Should you ALWAYS attach a copy of the infraction?

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There is a question on the AMCAS: "Have you ever...." If you check Yes you get a box in which you can write about a quarter page (IIRC) describing the infraction, the punishment and what you learned from it and/or how you've changed your ways.

Getting written up for horsing around or using unauthorized appliances and stuff like that does have to be reported but it won't be more than a speedbump on the path to medical school.