New Thread: Psychoanalysis. Psychodynamics, EBT, and the Science of Psychology

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DreamInterpret

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I completely agree with you. I think that PsyD programs should emphasize research training (in accordance with the Vail model, as you said), not only to justify our work to insurance companies, but because research helps us become better clinicians in choosing, tailoring, and assessing interventions.


I disagree. My extensive research experience has not made me a more empathic, meticulous, or astute clinician. When I am sitting in a room with a patient who is in pain and is looking to alleviate it, research rarely comes to mind as something that will help me help that person. Giving privilege to things that are "research-driven", or "empirically-based" ultimately makes us servants of the insurance industry and its whole "show me the numbers" attitude. It privileges a medical model that is at the heart of everything that is wrong with the way psychology is learned, taught, and delivered in America. The only way to train a clinician is, IMO, the apprenticeship model. Supervision, supervision, and more supervision, and then consultation, and more consultation. We need a system that goes beyond research and numbers. We need good mentors teaching clinicians actual helping skills, not tools and jargon with which to appear to be experts. I could read and assimilate every research article ever published in the field and still not be an expert in my own life, let alone someone else's. I could understand everything about psychosis, but not know how a patient experiences his psychosis and what it means or doesn't mean to him. Research does not make better clinicians. Actually, comfort with not knowing is a much better point of departure.
 
I disagree. My extensive research experience has not made me a more empathic, meticulous, or astute clinician. When I am sitting in a room with a patient who is in pain and is looking to alleviate it, research rarely comes to mind as something that will help me help that person. Giving privilege to things that are "research-driven", or "empirically-based" ultimately makes us servants of the insurance industry and its whole "show me the numbers" attitude. It privileges a medical model that is at the heart of everything that is wrong with the way psychology is learned, taught, and delivered in America. The only way to train a clinician is, IMO, the apprenticeship model. Supervision, supervision, and more supervision, and then consultation, and more consultation. We need a system that goes beyond research and numbers. We need good mentors teaching clinicians actual helping skills, not tools and jargon with which to appear to be experts. I could read and assimilate every research article ever published in the field and still not be an expert in my own life, let alone someone else's. I could understand everything about psychosis, but not know how a patient experiences his psychosis and what it means or doesn't mean to him. Research does not make better clinicians. Actually, comfort with not knowing is a much better point of departure.

So, when the person in pain is sitting in front of you, you chose NOT to preference an empirically supported tx to start with?
 
I disagree. My extensive research experience has not made me a more empathic, meticulous, or astute clinician. When I am sitting in a room with a patient who is in pain and is looking to alleviate it, research rarely comes to mind as something that will help me help that person. Giving privilege to things that are "research-driven", or "empirically-based" ultimately makes us servants of the insurance industry and its whole "show me the numbers" attitude. It privileges a medical model that is at the heart of everything that is wrong with the way psychology is learned, taught, and delivered in America. The only way to train a clinician is, IMO, the apprenticeship model. Supervision, supervision, and more supervision, and then consultation, and more consultation. We need a system that goes beyond research and numbers. We need good mentors teaching clinicians actual helping skills, not tools and jargon with which to appear to be experts. I could read and assimilate every research article ever published in the field and still not be an expert in my own life, let alone someone else's. I could understand everything about psychosis, but not know how a patient experiences his psychosis and what it means or doesn't mean to him. Research does not make better clinicians. Actually, comfort with not knowing is a much better point of departure.

It seems you have a gross misunderstanding of what it means to emphasize research training. psycreality was not suggesting that research should replace clinical experience, rather that research should inform your clinical work.
 
Empirically based tx does not inform me about what is actually going on with the individual. What informs me is the individual, and my attention to the moment by moment changes in affect, choice of words, postural shifts, narrative style, if relevant. I find that, in essence, the main thing empirically based anything in the field of psychology does is make psychologists feel like they are in positions of authority wrt those who seek their help.

The reason for the decline in our field is a lack of integrity through and through, at every level. As clinicians, particularly in our role as therapists, the most honest and productive stance we could take is one of not knowing, because we don't know. And not knowing means transcending knowing, going beyond empirically driven or supported treatments that make us feel like experts or deserving of our titles. The most challenging and valuable training I received was from a supervisor who took me to task each time I wanted to give into a stance of knowing. if only more mentors cared enough to insist that trainees examine their need for a sense of expertise when sitting in the therapist's chair.
 
The most challenging and valuable training I received was from a supervisor who took me to task each time I wanted to give into a stance of knowing. if only more mentors cared enough to insist that trainees examine their need for a sense of expertise when sitting in the therapist's chair.

If all psychotherapy training was done purely via supervision and consultation, everyone would just be doing whatever the hell the feel like all the time...and forever heeding idiosyncratic words of wisdom, clinical lore, and "past supervisor advice" instead of asking what the literature actually says. Use the research. Its why its there...

When I go see a practitioner of anything, I would expect that his/her first line treatment for me be based on some empirical evidence that it is the most efficacious. Wouldn't you?

None of this requires that you be "certain" of anything. EBTs are not "truth." No one has claimed that they are. Its simply using "the best we got." The thing thats "most likely" to work the best.

See below for some examples of clinical myths that have been passed down over the years and implemented into treatment. Its only through actually examining the literature that we have discovered these things are just NOT true.

http://www.psychotherapybrownbag.co.../10/50-great-myths-of-popular-psychology.html

PS: Regarding the authority aspect of things, I would certainly hope my 6 years of doctoral training would give me at least some authority on guiding mental health treatments for people. For if not, what are we all doing this for? I, for one, would certainly hope my doctor (psychologist, internist, surgeon, whoever) would/could speak with some authority on the topic for which I sought their services. If they didn't, THAT would scare me.
 
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If all psychotherapy training was done purely via supervision, everyone would just be doing whatever the hell the feel like all the time...and forever heeding idiosyncratic words of wisdom, clinical lore, and "past supervisor advice" instead of asking what the literature base actually says.

Do you really think this is the message DreamInterpret is trying to convey? Seeing that he or she is a licensed psychologist, do you really believe that their education, training, and path to licensure has not been informed by well researched theories and high standards of practice?

I can't speak for DreamInterpret, but it seems that we would agree that being a quality clinician requires a practiced ability to interact with clients and meet their individual needs, which is undoubtedly served by the apprenticeship model.

The hyperbole you use in your response, though thoughtful, seems to miss the point. An overemphasis on utilizing research in direct application of clinical skills will do a disservice to your clients.
 
Empirically based tx does not inform me about what is actually going on with the individual. What informs me is the individual, and my attention to the moment by moment changes in affect, choice of words, postural shifts, narrative style, if relevant. I find that, in essence, the main thing empirically based anything in the field of psychology does is make psychologists feel like they are in positions of authority wrt those who seek their help.

The reason for the decline in our field is a lack of integrity through and through, at every level. As clinicians, particularly in our role as therapists, the most honest and productive stance we could take is one of not knowing, because we don't know. And not knowing means transcending knowing, going beyond empirically driven or supported treatments that make us feel like experts or deserving of our titles. The most challenging and valuable training I received was from a supervisor who took me to task each time I wanted to give into a stance of knowing. if only more mentors cared enough to insist that trainees examine their need for a sense of expertise when sitting in the therapist's chair.

It sounds like you are referring to a phenomenological approach towards therapy. Yes, there are some good things that can come out of this form of treatment, but neglecting comprehensive research is irresponsible. It is essential to look at various types of modalities that involve psycho-educational components and the responses of respective patients. Support and empathy are, of course, critical components of clinical work. At the same time we need clinical research to understand patient responses and their progression towards self-sufficiency . The idea of "not knowing" can be harmful as some patients can get irritated that you (as the therapist) will not have (or willing to express) some sort of broad insight.
 
Guess what! Everyone is doing whatever the heck they feel like anyhow, except that some people are feeling more certain of what they're doing because they read a few papers or have a manual that let's them feel like they are right.

I am not suggesting a wholesale abandonment of research or empirically driven knowledge. I am suggesting we get past the feeling of expertise that our titles bestow on us. And if we are going to rely on empirical or manual-driven approaches, let's also have the decency to inform people of what the relapse rates are and when we should expect to see them back at square one again.

I can tell you that when I have seen symptoms recede and patients making real progress in working through what they struggle with, I have not really been able to point to any one thing that made a difference. There is something to be said for Winnicott's notion of potential space. I wish psychology students would spend some time reading Bion in addition to research papers. They should not be mutually exclusive.

I am sorry, but I have seen just too many psychologists who think they are awesome because they are quicker at seeing a person's cognitive distortions more clearly than the person himself. So we have a parallel process where one person's distortions get layered on top of the other's.

When I am sitting with that person who is in pain, my first job is to hear, see, fully sense what that pain is about, learn how the person is experiencing the pain, and let them know how I am hearing it so that they can correct me, or fine tune my hearing. If I don't have an empathic connection to my patient, no amount of empirically based mambo-jambo is going to help. All it does is help both me and the patient dissociate from the pain that brought them to me to begin with.
 
Empirically based tx does not inform me about what is actually going on with the individual. What informs me is the individual, and my attention to the moment by moment changes in affect, choice of words, postural shifts, narrative style, if relevant. I find that, in essence, the main thing empirically based anything in the field of psychology does is make psychologists feel like they are in positions of authority wrt those who seek their help.

The reason for the decline in our field is a lack of integrity through and through, at every level. As clinicians, particularly in our role as therapists, the most honest and productive stance we could take is one of not knowing, because we don't know. And not knowing means transcending knowing, going beyond empirically driven or supported treatments that make us feel like experts or deserving of our titles. The most challenging and valuable training I received was from a supervisor who took me to task each time I wanted to give into a stance of knowing. if only more mentors cared enough to insist that trainees examine their need for a sense of expertise when sitting in the therapist's chair.

Empirically-based treatment may not inform you about the individual, but my take on things is that the theory from which many empirically-based treatments is derived can (and likely should) be very informative when helping to understand a client and his/her specific issues. Making a push for evidence-based practice, in my mind, is not akin to adopting or pushing a medical model. It's us (psychology) attempting to find treatments that actually do work, rather than just feel like they work. Obviously it would be preferable to know why many of these treatments are effective, although that can often be a more difficult question to answer; however, it's one that also requires research.

You of course want to avoid the practice of attempting to pigeonhole a client into a particular theoretical model simply because that's the only model you understand. At the same time, completely eschewing research and coming at each client with a completely blank slate could be just as troublesome. If all of our clinical methods and conceptualizations are based only on our own (and our supervisors') past experiences, then we certainly run the risk of developing a personalized set of theories (or at least hypotheses) that are heavily biased by the restricted sample(s) of clients with whom we've directly worked.
 
Guess what! Everyone is doing whatever the heck they feel like anyhow, except that some people are feeling more certain of what they're doing because they read a few papers or have a manual that let's them feel like they are right.

I am not suggesting a wholesale abandonment of research or empirically driven knowledge. I am suggesting we get past the feeling of expertise that our titles bestow on us. And if we are going to rely on empirical or manual-driven approaches, let's also have the decency to inform people of what the relapse rates are and when we should expect to see them back at square one again.

I can tell you that when I have seen symptoms recede and patients making real progress in working through what they struggle with, I have not really been able to point to any one thing that made a difference. There is something to be said for Winnicott's notion of potential space. I wish psychology students would spend some time reading Bion in addition to research papers. They should not be mutually exclusive.

I am sorry, but I have seen just too many psychologists who think they are awesome because they are quicker at seeing a person's cognitive distortions more clearly than the person himself. So we have a parallel process where one person's distortions get layered on top of the other's.

When I am sitting with that person who is in pain, my first job is to hear, see, fully sense what that pain is about, learn how the person is experiencing the pain, and let them know how I am hearing it so that they can correct me, or fine tune my hearing. If I don't have an empathic connection to my patient, no amount of empirically based mambo-jambo is going to help. All it does is help both me and the patient dissociate from the pain that brought them to me to begin with.

I agree. While I personally don't have a particularly large interest in therapy, and likely have less experience in it than you or many other posters on this board, from what I've seen, providing this type of psychoeducation is often the first step (after a thorough assessment) in any evidence-based treatment paradigm.
 
"The idea of "not knowing" can be harmful as some patients can get irritated that you (as the therapist) will not have (or willing to express) some sort of broad insight."

I am not suggesting being withholding. I am suggesting not replacing empathy with information. Nor am I too concerned with appeasing a patient's irritation. That irritation, if it can find expression, can be the first step, the most informative piece of evidence in terms of the persons struggles in life. Is she irritated each time there is no one definite answer? Maybe I, too, am irritated. Why to eschew that feeling of irritation? Why miss that opportunity?

Really, I feel like if I can help a person become comfortable with the feeling of not knowing, then I have helped that person.
 
I don't think I'm going to say much that hasn't already been said, nor do I think my post here will convince anyone who feels differently to adopt my perspective. That being said, here's a condensed version of where I stand:

There are many reasons why I value evidence-based treatments in my clinical work. The primary one, however, is my desired outcome: I want the greatest number of patients to emerge with optimal outcomes the greatest portion of the time. Unfortunately, evidence-based treatments are not going to work for everyone. If we were able to identify who those folks were ahead of time (e.g., analyses of moderators of treatment outcomes), then I'd be all for using non-evidence-based approaches with them. Unfortunately, we can't, so we just have to guess. The thing is when we guess, we tend to perform worse then or, at best, equal to actuarial methods (click here for a link to the abstract for one of Paul Meehl's great works on this topic: http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/law/2/2/293/). In other words, our guesses might be correct for some folks who otherwise would have received ineffective care, but the total will be a net loss due to our inevitable errors in judgment. Confirmation bias (and the fact that many folks with poor outcomes likely just drop out of treatment immediately) leaves us focused on our successes and our beliefs understandably become perpetuated.

I realize that a manual does not tell me about my client. I also realize that empathy is incredibly important and, when I'm in a room with my client, I don't see them as a number of a study participant. That being said, in my opinion, the most empathic thing I can do for my client is to put my own philosophical beliefs and biases aside and allow the evidence to guide my treatment. It's about them, not me. From there, I frequently assess to ensure that treatment is working optimally and, if it's not, I switch gears or refer out to somebody who might take a different approach.

Anyway, this debate isn't going away anytime soon and it's great to see it taking shape amongst so many people in this forum. Interesting stuff.
 
When I am sitting with that person who is in pain, my first job is to hear, see, fully sense what that pain is about, learn how the person is experiencing the pain, and let them know how I am hearing it so that they can correct me, or fine tune my hearing. If I don't have an empathic connection to my patient, no amount of empirically based mambo-jambo is going to help. All it does is help both me and the patient dissociate from the pain that brought them to me to begin with.

Arguments against ESTs often devolve to this point--we need to be empathic with our clients. Being empathic somehow means avoiding ESTs? Research has long demonstrated the importance of empathy and connection. Forming this connection is part of evidence based practice. Showing empathy doesn't preclude going on to deliver other treatments that have been demonstrated to be effective in the literature.

Many times a good connection alone will help a patient. However, there are techniques on top of this that work even better. For what reason would we possibly withhold this information from clients?
 
"That being said, in my opinion, the most empathic thing I can do for my client is to put my own philosophical beliefs and biases aside and allow the evidence to guide my treatment."

And a preference for evidence-based treatment is not a philosophical belief or bias?

Bion is only psychobabble for people who don't have the capacity to read.

I am not suggesting we throw out evidence-based treatment. I'm only asking that we be honest about its limits. Don't get me wrong. I WANT psychologists to have the full range of treatment options available to them. I want to be able to offer every possible chance for my patients to improve, to not relapse. But what I have seen, especially in the treatment of people with serious mental illnesses, is that evidence-based approaches are not effective in the long run. These people are not given the best and utmost that our profession can offer them. And, evidence-based treatments are the easiest and safest way to treat these people because the therapist can avoid full engagement in the work. Manuals are easy to hide behind. I, as a scientifically educated but psychodynamically oriented psychologist know full well that the establishment does not recognize the efficacy of the non-evidence-based treatment approaches I am capable of offering, and it's for this reason that those clinicians who might have the most to offer the sickest patients are not working where they should be working.

I think we absolutely should and must be trained scientifically. I think we should absolutely know how and when to test. We should have powerful assessment tools and capacities at our disposal, because that is what our health care institutions demand of us. And the scientific literature should continue to develop and flourish so that we can talk the talk. But some of us want more, and we have patients who demand more of us.

My favorite professor in grad school was a man who had a degree in physics, and had gone on to write textbooks on the application of advanced statistical models to psychological questions. He eventually came to take only students who were interested in qualitative research because he felt that that was where the questions were evolving. I guess this is what I'm striving for, and am hoping my colleagues will come to value as well. Science is easy. Relationships are not.
 
"And a preference for evidence-based treatment is not a philosophical belief or bias?"

No, that preference definitely is; however, a focus on obtaining optimal outcomes isn't. In a sense, I suppose that focus is a bias, but it's hard to imagine an argument against aiming to produce the best results.

If using something other than evidence-based approaches produces better outcomes, I'd be all for it (of course....would it then be on its way to becoming evidence-based?). The thing is - and I again point to the Paul Meehl work - non-evidence-based approaches tend not to produce such outcomes. I'm sure there are therapists who, through idiosyncratic approaches, "beat the market" in a sense. The problem is that a much higher percentage of folks using idiosyncratic approaches likely *think* they fit in that elusive club than actually do.
 
Is there anything that goes beyond science? Yes. There is. Can we and should be be striving toward it? I believe so. Bion actually proposed and explicated a different model for therapeutic contact and change, not privileging the discourse of science.

I think that the current medicalized model of mental health delivery is profoundly limiting to the human beings who practice it and to those who seek its benefits. Saying e.g. that a treatment protocol should last 24 or 30 sessions (because that is what the study showed) does not take into account the complexity of human beings and human relationships, but it sure does work for the health care and insurance industries who have us by the short ones and are demanding that we practice according to their needs as opposed to the patients' needs. I think that psychologists privileging a scientific, medical model for treatment plays right into the demands of the institutions, who then decide how we go about training new psychologists, especially in America.

In my opinion, the DSM is a useless document that again privileges the medical, scientific discourse. I use it. I have to use it so that my patients can get reimbursed, and IMO, that is pretty much the limit of its utility. And I try never to lose sight of the fact that it is a construction that privileges certain ways of thinking and writing.
 
Manualized, evidence-based, whatever... It is limiting to the way psychological services could be delivered to benefit those who need them most.

What about that patient who does not respond to the treatment in the way that the evidence is saying she should? How about the evidence sitting right in front of me in the consulting room?

Why do you think it is that those people who can afford private treatment go to places like Austen Riggs or Menninger, where treatment is more individualized, more phenomenological, eclectic, comprehensive, longer-term, while the patients who are not affluent, who don't have the privilege of class and education, get cycled through acute care units to step-down programs, back out to the community, and eventually back through the revolving door? Maybe it's because when you have limited funds, you put the money where the so-called evidence is. Who is it helping?

How is this any different from the evidence-based diet industry that has been banking on the fact that the culture at large values a particular body type that, for the most part, is unattainable given the food culture that the government and dominant institutions support? If Jenny Craig or Nutrisystem worked, then they would have eventually to close shop. What's a psychiatric center without a steady flow of "customers" which is what mental health care patients are being referred to as?

We have no choice but to work within the system, but let's not euphemize what we're doing by calling it "evidence based" or any other such thing. The institutions that are insisting on evidence-based therapies are doing so for their own benefit, as most institutions are concerned first and foremost by their own existence and projection into the future. If some patients also benefit from it, so much the better.
 
I think that the current medicalized model of mental health delivery is profoundly limiting to the human beings who practice it and to those who seek its benefits. Saying e.g. that a treatment protocol should last 24 or 30 sessions (because that is what the study showed) does not take into account the complexity of human beings and human relationships, but it sure does work for the health care and insurance industries who have us by the short ones and are demanding that we practice according to their needs as opposed to the patients' needs.

While there are some definite limitations to manualized EBTs, at least there is an attempt to show meaningful change and capture measurable outcome data. I don't believe anyone would argue that if you follow the manual you will achieve the intended outcome with 100% effectiveness, though tossing it aside because "everyone is a unique snowflake" really undercuts a large opportunity to help patients in need.

Does Prolonged Exposure Therapy work on everyone....no. Does it work well for a majority of patients who fit within the parameters of the treatment...yes. I have much more faith in a treatment that has replicatable results than an N=1 clinican who has a way that has worked with 80%+ of his/her patients. There is no scalability with the vast majority of N=1 cases.

Most patients who seek out psychotherapy want to get better. As a provider, I want to give the patient the best opportunity to get better, so I utilize the best approach I can find to treat the person. I look first to EBTs, and then if they don't work, then maybe I'd consider a less common approach. I'm not implying I'd use moonbeams or healing rocks, but maybe I'd talk with the patient about trying another approach that may have been helpful for someone with a similar cluster of symptoms, though there may not be good data supporting the exact application to the Dx.

I have serious reservations when I hear people talk say, "Well...I don't subscribe to one model because I'm ecclectic", and then they rattle off a bunch of unrelated interventions that lack an overarching model and often violate eachother's common tennants. I'm not saying they won't find some success, but that is not a good way to go about providing treatment. "Eclectic" therapists need to be well versed in ALL of the models they draw from, and also have a solid rationale as to how/why they choose different parts to integrate together. Far too many "eclectic" clinicians just wing it, which can compromise the needs of the patient.

In my opinion, the DSM is a useless document that again privileges the medical, scientific discourse. I use it. I have to use it so that my patients can get reimbursed, and IMO, that is pretty much the limit of its utility. And I try never to lose sight of the fact that it is a construction that privileges certain ways of thinking and writing.

I'm not a fan of the DSM, though it is a necessary evil. No person is their DSM diagnosis, though a DSM diagnosis is an attempt to quantify presenting symptoms that exist within a given person.

ps. I don't have a horse in this race, as I do not practice traditional psychotherapy. Some supportive therapy here or there, but being able to step away from day to day practice has given me a much clearer perspective about some of the challenges associated with practice in today's market. Jon's reference to the fringe "eclectics" represents some of the worst attempts at treatment, yet people still line up and give their good money over for psychology's version of snake oil.
 
Manualized, evidence-based, whatever... It is limiting to the way psychological services could be delivered to benefit those who need them most.

No, they are not the same. No, its not limiting. Its just your starting point. If I have a chest infection, I would prefer that my provider know that a Z-pac or 10 day course of doxy are the most effective way to treat it. I would expect that he/she start there...and if it didnt work....we would THEN try something else. Maybe something more novel.
 
No, there is not. At least, nothing in any way relevant to psychological practice. We are not in the business of dealing with the supernatural. In your defense, there are tons of people in the mental health field that think the way you do, hence why we see myriad eclectic therapists and folks practicing shamanic therapy. Snake oil.

Yes. It's all snake oil! What you do is probably snake oil, too, but you're saying your snake oil is better than some other snake oil because somebody supposedly did a "controlled" study either on lab monkeys or human beings, and then put his results into nice, neat tables and graphs, followed a particular, standard protocol of reporting, had all the right funding. So we're going to go with this snake oil for everybody.

Hey, it's all good! If my snake oil doesn't work, I'll use your snake oil, too, and I won't tell anyone if you decide to try some of mine. I'm not against evidence-based snake oil, I just don't want to privilege it and limit myself or my patients to it.

BTW, shamanism actually works in some cultures. I don't think it's useful to import it into our culture, though. All forms of healing are essentially cultural constructions. Try doing CBT with Altaic Nomads and you'll see what I mean.
 
No, they are not the same. No, its not limiting. Its just your starting point. If I have a chest infection, I would prefer that my provider know that a Z-pac or 10 day course of doxy are the most effective way to treat it. I would expect that he/she start there...and if it didnt work....we would THEN try something else. Maybe something more novel.

I think a medical metaphor is not useful and profoundly limiting in the discussion of the human mind. JMHO.
 
"I have serious reservations when I hear people talk say, "Well...I don't subscribe to one model because I'm ecclectic", and then they rattle off a bunch of unrelated interventions that lack an overarching model and often violate eachother's common tennants. I'm not saying they won't find some success, but that is not a good way to go about providing treatment. "Eclectic" therapists need to be well versed in ALL of the models they draw from, and also have a solid rationale as to how/why they choose different parts to integrate together. Far too many "eclectic" clinicians just wing it, which can compromise the needs of the patient."

I would not trust any psychologist who calls him or herself "eclectic" if he or she does not have actual long-term clinical experience in the different approaches to draw from.

BTW, I've seen lots of EB clinicians winging it, too. It's easy to wing it if you can profess some sort of "scientific" foundation to what you are doing.
 
Its not perfect in its content, but it perfectly relevant from an ethical perspective. You have the responsibility to an provide evidence-based practice. If you aren't, I wouldn't go to a doctoral level professional. I would go to a gypsy or something.

How would you feel if you went to professional and they told you:

"Well, the research tells us that X is most likely to work for you. It doesn't work on everybody of course, but its among the best chances we would have. However, I am going to chose to ignore that evidence and not do that. Lets just do something else. There's some evidence for it, but not as much as the other thing I was talking about. Lets just do that instead, ok? Oh yea....now pay me $200."

I would be quite angry and insulted.
 
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You know what? Let's move beyond ethics, shall we? It's that same set of ethical standards that says it's OK to sleep with one's patients as long as it's been over two years since termination. Really?

I'm not asking anyone to abandon evidence based practices. I'm only asking that they be seen for what they are, not as privileged or privileging entities.

As I understand doctoral level practice in any field, the aim is to transcend limits of current knowledge, to think critically and dialectically, and to work towards synthesis of disparate systems.
 
I would not trust any psychologist who calls him or herself "eclectic" if he or she does not have actual long-term clinical experience in the different approaches to draw from.

The long-term clinical experience is only applicable when it comes after a solid foundation of training/mentorship, as many of the "fringe eclectic" have 25+ years of experience practicing as a hack. EBTs are not the end all and be all, but they should be the FIRST line treatment and explained in the context of being the most supported approach. Many patients don't know the difference between treatments, so it is up to the provider to explain each option...and not just their approach.
 
Many patients don't know the difference between treatments, so it is up to the provider to explain each option...and not just their approach.

Incredibly important point. This is the very nature of informed consent. The patient typically has no knowledge of/access to information regarding the relative support for and against a particular treatment (or alternative approaches). It is vital that the clinician provide that information.
 
I'm curious as to why the medical (disease) model and evidence-based/science-based practice are being lumped together as one and the same. The two are separate ideas, and are not necessarily automatically analogous.

As for evidence-based therapy vs. the uniqueness of the individual: keep in mind that these EBT's were used on a variety of unique individuals, and the combined outcomes of that group of unique individuals was shown to be significantly better than the outcomes of similarly-unique individuals treated via comparison methods (many of which, in early studies, fell in the realm of general supportive therapy). Also, these results are often then replicated by separate examiners in separate labs with separate patients; in that way, it can be at least somewhat shown that the positive outcomes are not an artifact of the initial lab, and are achievable by other practitioners.

Adhering to evidence-based therapies does not mean the clinician is going to completely ignore or downplay the individuality of the client. The beginning of any treatment case involves a very thorough assessment. This assessment should then lead to a very individualied conceptualiztion, which pays significant attention to unique variables/characteristics and how they might be addressed via treatment. This conceptualization is then continually updated and edited to fit new information as it is gained from the client, and to address any potential stalls in therapeutic progress.

And I think one of the important ideas established by letting a client know very early on that your therapy will aim to be time-limited isn't to pander to insurance companies; it's to keep the client abreast of the fact that ultimately, your job (as a therapist) is to make your job unnecessary as quickly as possible. That is, it's not my job to fix you. It's my job to help you figure out how to fix yourself as quickly as possible so that you don't need me anymore.
 
The long-term clinical experience is only applicable when it comes after a solid foundation of training/mentorship, as many of the "fringe eclectic" have 25+ years of experience practicing as a hack. EBTs are not the end all and be all, but they should be the FIRST line treatment and explained in the context of being the most supported approach. Many patients don't know the difference between treatments, so it is up to the provider to explain each option...and not just their approach.

That's true if I want my approach to be informed by a medical model. Do you see how this sets up a power differential, or the perception of one, that might not be helpful? Is this going to set up a situation where the individual surrenders part of their agency, and is this release of agency a powerful metaphor that may drive eventual relapse? Isn't how treatment is delivered at least as important as the treatment?
 
The long-term clinical experience is only applicable when it comes after a solid foundation of training/mentorship, as many of the "fringe eclectic" have 25+ years of experience practicing as a hack. EBTs are not the end all and be all, but they should be the FIRST line treatment and explained in the context of being the most supported approach. Many patients don't know the difference between treatments, so it is up to the provider to explain each option...and not just their approach.

Agreed. Clinical experience, in my mind, is synonymous with a solid foundation that includes mentorship and supervision.
 
That's true if I want my approach to be informed by a medical model. Do you see how this sets up a power differential, or the perception of one, that might not be helpful? Is this going to set up a situation where the individual surrenders part of their agency, and is this release of agency a powerful metaphor that may drive eventual relapse? Isn't how treatment is delivered at least as important as the treatment?

The power differential is more of a philosophical difference, though I'll briefly address it. Carl Rogers did a great job of addressing the value of "walking with", though in this example it is less applicable because the provider is required to be the knowledge expert while the patient will most likely not have the same level of understanding. The patient has an expectation that his/her provider's professional opinion can be trusted. Treatment options need to be explained because the patient needs to be able to make an informed decision based on the best available treatments for a given situation. If at that point the patient chooses to forego the standard treatment and pursue moonbeam and healing rock treatment from another provider, then that is their decision.

I'd argue that having a discussion of different intervention approaches would empower the patient because they could make up their own mind. When I did trauma work, I'd meet with the patient for the first session and discuss the treatment options available to them. These approaches included: Prolonged Exposure Therapy, Cognitive Processing Therapy, or an alternative intervention (requiring a referral as I only did the first two). I'd describe each approach in detail, which included speaking to the research and outcome data. They often would ask which approach they should do, and we'd have a discussion about their background and what approach would provide them the best opportunity to make some positive change. Prior to the initial session I'd have a pretty good idea of which approach may work best, though I'd defer to them because it was their treatment...not mine.
 
It must feel empowering to the therapist, also, to be able to offer treatments that are backed by numbers. I certainly feel less vulnerable when I can teach people how not to bite their nails. I feel profoundly vulnerable when I cannot offer the same behavioral intervention for someone who is actively cutting. But do you tell patients how soon after their treatment ends they can expect their symptoms to return, since really, you might not have addressed things beyond perception or behavior? And what about the patient's environment or family system? Does that matter? Will change be lasting if the person's environment is the same as it was before treatment? And Zeus forbid we bring up the patient's inner life, or their unconscious, or internal objects.
 
It must feel empowering to the therapist, also, to be able to offer treatments that are backed by numbers. I certainly feel less vulnerable when I can teach people how not to bite their nails. I feel profoundly vulnerable when I cannot offer the same behavioral intervention for someone who is actively cutting. But do you tell patients how soon after their treatment ends they can expect their symptoms to return, since really, you might not have addressed things beyond perception or behavior? And what about the patient's environment or family system? Does that matter? Will change be lasting if the person's environment is the same as it was before treatment? And Zeus forbid we bring up the patient's inner life, or their unconscious, or internal objects.

Thing is, cutting and nail biting would possibly (likely) be driven by, and would involve, different factors. Thus, the most appropriate treatments may also differ. Evidence-based treatment and science-informed assessment don't ignore these differences.

And while you might not be able to tell a patient exactly how soon their symptoms will return (I'd be skeptical of anyone who attempted to assert otherwise), you can, and should, tell them the rates of recidivism and then problem-solve ways they can address these issues should they resurface.
 
But do you tell patients how soon after their treatment ends they can expect their symptoms to return, since really, you might not have addressed things beyond perception or behavior? And what about the patient's environment or family system? Does that matter? Will change be lasting if the person's environment is the same as it was before treatment? And Zeus forbid we bring up the patient's inner life, or their unconscious, or internal objects.

No, but only because we're not even all that great at predicting who will relapse, let alone when. . I address these things because I want the clients to get better, and evidence shows that they work. That absolutely includes addressing their environment (to the extent possible). I wish we could do more on that front.

While we're on the topic of what we should or should not tell the clients... I can and do show clients the research and am open about its limitations...do you reveal to clients that there is no scientific base for what is being done, that treatments that have been shown to be the most effective for most people aren't being used? I sincerely hope the username is misleading and that you aren't actually doing dream interpretation in this day and age.

My experience working with the anti-EBP crowd is that they are typically much less open with clients than the EBP folks are. I absolutely will inform them of what I can and cannot do, what my limitations are, etc. If I am not appropriately equipped to treat them, I will tell them. I do my best to get objective markers of their progress on a regular basis. If those markers indicate a lack of progress, I will change my approach or refer out if my toolbox has been exhausted. That is actually standard practice for EBP. In contrast, many of the less evidence-driven folks around here seem to be perfectly happy to see patients for years at a time without ever even checking to see if progress is being made (hint: it often isn't) and only bounce them to our clinic when their insurance dries up, at which point we see more improvements in 10 weeks than the last therapist produced in 3 years.

The paternalistic, therapist-as-expert model actually seems FAR more in line with traditional psychoanalysis than any evidence-based approach that I'm aware of. We're encouraged to present our clients with options and help them make informed decisions. We are taught to take a collaborative approach, and that we are not the experts on them and in fact, our role isn't to become the experts on them - its to help them become an expert on themselves.
 
"I sincerely hope the username is misleading and that you aren't actually doing dream interpretation in this day and age."

No it's not misleading. I welcome dreams and all sorts of other "non- scientific" material into the work, and find the collaboration between me and the patient to understand dreams to be one of the most mutative aspects of therapy.

Surely you have read the scientific literature on the content of the dreams of people with schizophrenia? it is fascinating! People with schizophrenia mostly have dreams that are unpopulated. So, when a patient who has schizophrenia presents me with a dream that is populated, then I darn well better take the time to listen to it, and help the person to narrate it.
 
I do not understand why there needs to be a debate for and against EBTs. If one is not satisfied with EBTs such as CBT, then why not research the effectiveness and efficacy of therapies that currently do not have much empirical support?
 
"The paternalistic, therapist-as-expert model actually seems FAR more in line with traditional psychoanalysis than any evidence-based approach that I'm aware of. We're encouraged to present our clients with options and help them make informed decisions. We are taught to take a collaborative approach, and that we are not the experts on them and in fact, our role isn't to become the experts on them - its to help them become an expert on themselve."

I don't practice traditional psychoanalysis, and don't know anyone else who does, either. FYI, psychoanalytic thought, theory, and practice has been and is evolving, and I will venture to argue that it is probably more sophisticated and demanding as a training model than whatever your so called science driven training might have demanded of you. I believe this is true because psychoanalysis does not try to reduce the human psyche into an object of science, any more than the productions of the human psyche, art, literature, music, etc., can be understood or approached through one particular discursive lens, aka the scientific method.
 
I disagree. There are psychoanalytic researchers out there who are currently doing projects on the processes of unconscious defenses and other unconscious processes. I know because I am in one of those labs. I am psychodynamically oriented myself and I believe that psychodynamic theories will benefit from more research on both its basic theories of the mind and on the effectiveness of its therapy. Psychoanalysis and science are not mutually exclusive.


"The paternalistic, therapist-as-expert model actually seems FAR more in line with traditional psychoanalysis than any evidence-based approach that I'm aware of. We're encouraged to present our clients with options and help them make informed decisions. We are taught to take a collaborative approach, and that we are not the experts on them and in fact, our role isn't to become the experts on them - its to help them become an expert on themselve."

I don't practice traditional psychoanalysis, and don't know anyone else who does, either. FYI, psychoanalytic thought, theory, and practice has been and is evolving, and I will venture to argue that it is probably more sophisticated and demanding as a training model than whatever your so called science driven training might have demanded of you. I believe this is true because psychoanalysis does not try to reduce the human psyche into an object of science, any more than the productions of the human psyche, art, literature, music, etc., can be understood or approached through one particular discursive lens, aka the scientific method.
 
I do not understand why there needs to be a debate for and against EBTs. If one is not satisfied with EBTs such as CBT, then why not research the effectiveness and efficacy of therapies that currently do not have much empirical support?

Because that would be a way of privileging the same methodology that I believe needs to be questioned.
 
Psychoanalysis and science are not mutually exclusive.

This is true, except for the fact that an objective of scientific method is to reduce and generalize, and I don't think we do service to humans when we make reductionism our standard operational procedure.
 
It continues to confuse me why some CBT-oriented practitioners insist on painting psychodynamic/psychoanalytic techniques in a negative light, believing that their interventions are superior as proven by studies with exclusion criteria that would render any mental health organization bankrupt. What is it that people say about all or nothing thinking?

Effective CBT therapists pay attention to the process, effective psychoanalysts pay attention to the evidence. Hack jobs exist everywhere.
 
No, there is not. At least, nothing in any way relevant to psychological practice. We are not in the business of dealing with the supernatural.

I'm about as atheistic as the next neo-marxist, but even I consider this statement extreme. Please define "deal" and/or speak for yourself rather than pretend to speak for all of psychology.
 
I'm about as atheistic as the next neo-marxist, but even I consider this statement extreme. Please define "deal" and/or speak for yourself rather than pretend to speak for all of psychology.

+1 (well, not the atheist part)

To some extent therapists have to take a client's spiritual and cultural beliefs into consideration for appropriate conceptualization and understanding a huge component of many people's coping mechanisms. We all "deal" with it. So I agree there should be more to that statement.
 
This is true, except for the fact that an objective of scientific method is to reduce and generalize, and I don't think we do service to humans when we make reductionism our standard operational procedure.




But psychoanalysis is a scientific (well cough cough) theory derived from objective-like (well sort-of) observations with an aim to generalize to a population. When we speak about Id, Superego, penis envy, kleinian object relations and the like, we talk about concepts that apply to the whole population no? (at least to the western-type societies) A psychodynamic-oriented therapist uses/follows a specific narrative, a group of ideas to guide his/her formulations, interpretations and therapeutic process. It follows (or tries to follow) the scientific method and principles of the psychodynamic tradition. If not, why just not invent your own theory in which by communicating with cosmic phalluses from outer space you can bring your patient to a trance and liberate his/her imprisoned teen-angst which (you think) is the cause for all his problems? Heck, why not just perform "angel therapy" to your patient and summon the archangel grabriel to "possess your mortal body" and speak the "therapeutic word of god" through you? Would you do that? It could have a result, the one that anyone can talk about without having the slightest objective idea about the consequences (positive, neutral or negative) . Or you would rather stick to the somehow-more-scientific-psychodynamic tradition?
 
@PETRAN, do you devalue and mock all phenomena having to do with the human condition that are not science -based?
 
It continues to confuse me why some CBT-oriented practitioners insist on painting psychodynamic/psychoanalytic techniques in a negative light, believing that their interventions are superior as proven by studies with exclusion criteria that would render any mental health organization bankrupt. What is it that people say about all or nothing thinking?

Effective CBT therapists pay attention to the process, effective psychoanalysts pay attention to the evidence. Hack jobs exist everywhere.

I agree in part and have actually previously argued here that we need an increased focus on effectiveness/T2 research. It seems to be happening, albeit slower than I'd like.

However, the most commonly stated reason is because of co-morbidities. This is definitely a problem, but I think it is often 1) Over-stated and 2) Often the result of sloppy diagnosing. I think the latter is in large part due to the way the DSM is structured, but that is a discussion for another day.

Regardless, my issue is not with people making an informed decision not to apply a certain "standard" EST to a client, my problem is when people throw caution into the wind based on some vague philosophies and start doing things with no evidence when the reason to do so is based more on the practitioner's beliefs than the patient. I referenced analysis above because that is different from modern dynamics, which have actually been shown to be effective in certain situations (last I checked, some evidence for MDD, GAD and some of Axis II). To my knowledge, none of those treatments involved dream interpretation. Furthermore, one of the mainstream MDD treatments actually has a pretty solid evidence-base (IPT) and certainly has more of a dynamic foundation than a cognitive one.

If a client doesn't meet the inclusion criteria for one study because of a co-morbidity, we have two options - we can try and combine two things that work as best we are able, or we can try something with virtually no evidence that it works. I firmly believe the former is a better choice, at least until that fails, in which case it is fine to move to the latter. All of this can be jumbled up a bit if for whatever reason the client isn't suited to one treatment or another (or refuses) but my experience is that these are often decisions made by the therapist and the client has virtually no input.

Philosophy certainly has a role to play. Many of the ESTs were derived from philosophical approaches (see Ellis's early work, or more recently Hayes' writing on the foundations of ACT). The question is whether that is sufficient, and I think a quick glance at the current state of the field suggests that it isn't.

To DreamInterpret: You are correct, it IS fascinating. Many things are fascinating, but do not serve any particular clinical function. Prove it serves a clinical function. (Note: I actually believe it might in that specific situation, though my explanation why is likely very different from yours).
 
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@PETRAN, do you devalue and mock all phenomena having to do with the human condition that are not science -based?



No, but this is not what i said. I'm talking about professional psychological practice.

Would you perform angel therapy and ask for 200 dollars from your client?
 
Since religion seems to have entered the debate...

In Catholicism there is this thing called confession. You go to a priest, who may or may not have been adequately educated in the many aspects of human life. He sits on one side of this fun looking booth, the one confessing kneels on the other side. There is a screen separating them, and all sorts of ritual and symbol that directs authority away from the one kneeling and toward the priest. So, the one kneeling gives the priest a list of everything that he or she did over the course of the week that can be considered sinful, or for one reason or other is making him or her feel like a bad person. The priest, after listening and assessing the sins, gives the confessing parishioner a penance, usually three Hail Mary's with an Our Father on either side. Then he says, "Ego te absolvo", and sends the sinner back out into the world. If he or she isn't back the next week, that's OK 'cause other regulars will be.

If I were as uneducated about EBT as some in this forum are about psychoanalysis, I would think the above to be an appropriate metaphor.
 
No, but this is not what i said. I'm talking about professional psychological practice.

Would you perform angel therapy and ask for 200 dollars from your client?


No, what I might do is design a study, gather and manipulate enough statistical data to support my hypothesis that Angel Therapy is effective in the treatment of a particular mental illness. I would get some of my friends working at universities to tell their graduate students to work on replicating Angel Therapy research. I would then have the confidence and authority to tell my patient that Angel Therapy has been "clinically shown" to be effective in relieving his symptoms (my patient hears the words "clinically shown" and is already putting his faith in what I have to offer). We would schedule 30 sessions, which works out because that is what insurance or some other government-based healthcare network is willing to pay for.

After 30 sessions, my patient is feeling better! We don't really fully understand why. It may very well be because it's the first time in this person's life that someone gave him or her their full, undivided attention, treated them with kindness and respect. Maybe I remind him of a teacher or neighbor who was caring and supportive. We just say that Angel Theray has been clinically proven to be effective.

The nice thing is, I can still charge 200 dollars, but the patient doesn't feel it as too much of a financial burden because a third party will cover some of it.
 
Since religion seems to have entered the debate...

In Catholicism there is this thing called confession. You go to a priest, who may or may not have been adequately educated in the many aspects of human life. He sits on one side of this fun looking booth, the one confessing kneels on the other side. There is a screen separating them, and all sorts of ritual and symbol that directs authority away from the one kneeling and toward the priest. So, the one kneeling gives the priest a list of everything that he or she did over the course of the week that can be considered sinful, or for one reason or other is making him or her feel like a bad person. The priest, after listening and assessing the sins, gives the confessing parishioner a penance, usually three Hail Mary's with an Our Father on either side. Then he says, "Ego te absolvo", and sends the sinner back out into the world. If he or she isn't back the next week, that's OK 'cause other regulars will be.

If I were as uneducated about EBT as some in this forum are about psychoanalysis, I would think the above to be an appropriate metaphor.



Oh great, i guess it was a matter of time before parables enter the conversation. :laugh:



I think you avoid the question. Do you consider psychoanalysis to be a systematic body of knowledge and method that guides your practice? Do you consider it equal to angel therapy or quark-crystal healing?
 
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