Got into med school, doubts about medicine

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justarandomuser

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Im a high school senior. I got into the BS/MD at George Washington University and even though i was 100% sure when i applied, im starting to have doubts. I have a lot of shadowing experience under my belt, and have even scrubbed in to surgeries, but the main interest for me in med school was always the whole people aspect. Yes, giving back is great and important and gives you the bubbly feeling and all, but what i liked best when looking at cases was seeing doctors talk their way into a diagnosis, then reaffirm it with tools. I guess its a power thing too; I like the idea of having the ability to know what was wrong with people and to fix them up.

But im starting to reconsider a business, marketing type job. I considered it in the past, but im starting to thikn i might've thrown it out because of I just had more luck with med internships than business ones (the marketing internship i had at a startup was pretty average while my med shadowing position was one of those everyday is something new type things)

I'm torn. My plan if I go to medicine is to work abroad, and my eventual goal is to start a clinic abroad, so you can tell that this whole business thing is still coming in. I'm kind of worried ill get bored of the same cases over and over again when i become a doctor I guess, and this is the wrong time to be career change for me. Great.

If i decide to back out of my BS/MD i have 2 days. And I honestly dont have any (equivalently prestigious) option to turn to; i was kind of forced to apply to too many safeties.
 
justarandomuser said:
Im a high school senior. I got into the BS/MD at George Washington University and even though i was 100% sure when i applied, im starting to have doubts. I have a lot of shadowing experience under my belt, and have even scrubbed in to surgeries, but the main interest for me in med school was always the whole people aspect. Yes, giving back is great and important and gives you the bubbly feeling and all, but what i liked best when looking at cases was seeing doctors talk their way into a diagnosis, then reaffirm it with tools. I guess its a power thing too; I like the idea of having the ability to know what was wrong with people and to fix them up.

But im starting to reconsider a business, marketing type job. I considered it in the past, but im starting to thikn i might've thrown it out because of I just had more luck with med internships than business ones (the marketing internship i had at a startup was pretty average while my med shadowing position was one of those everyday is something new type things)

I'm torn. My plan if I go to medicine is to work abroad, and my eventual goal is to start a clinic abroad, so you can tell that this whole business thing is still coming in. I'm kind of worried ill get bored of the same cases over and over again when i become a doctor I guess, and this is the wrong time to be career change for me. Great.

If i decide to back out of my BS/MD i have 2 days. And I honestly dont have any (equivalently prestigious) option to turn to; i was kind of forced to apply to too many safeties.
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If you aren't sold on medicine don't do it. Seriously. It's not for everyone, and from what I'm reading in your post, I'm not sure it's for you. You can always do it later, even decades later (as you can see on the nontrad board) if you choose. But it's a lot of work and will demand a lot of focus for the next decade +, so if you aren't into it at this point it's a really bad mindset to start with, and you will end up doing poorly and going through a lot of crap. Find a way to get out. If you change your mind, med schools will always be there.
 
I agree with Law2Doc about this as well. You have to be committed to medicine and sure it is the right path for you. I have a small amount of knowledge when it comes to a BS/MD and I may not be the best person to give advice. However, this is a seven year process and is a commitment (this is not even including residency). If you feel you will get bored, you may need more time to consider medicine. Remember that you medical school will always be there no matter how old you are.

I also notice you said you wanted to start up a clinic. Why not get an MBA after you are done with residency? There are many MBA programs that are geared toward health professionals (takes 1-2 years to complete). Remember that just because a physician has gotten an MD does not mean they are restricted to it. There dozens of physicians with an MBA. So maybe that might be a nice plan for you to consider as well.
 
Even after getting an MD, you can go into business. In fact, the degree will add a certain prestige if you want to get involved in healthcare work. I've spoken to a lot of MDs who were applying to jobs at McKinsey or BCG where they could make 150-200k a year fresh out of med school.

You can also back out of the BS/MD half-way through and get a degree in something else. What you can't do is apply for a BS/MD while an undergrad.

justarandomuser said:
Im a high school senior. I got into the BS/MD at George Washington University and even though i was 100% sure when i applied, im starting to have doubts. I have a lot of shadowing experience under my belt, and have even scrubbed in to surgeries, but the main interest for me in med school was always the whole people aspect. Yes, giving back is great and important and gives you the bubbly feeling and all, but what i liked best when looking at cases was seeing doctors talk their way into a diagnosis, then reaffirm it with tools. I guess its a power thing too; I like the idea of having the ability to know what was wrong with people and to fix them up.

But im starting to reconsider a business, marketing type job. I considered it in the past, but im starting to thikn i might've thrown it out because of I just had more luck with med internships than business ones (the marketing internship i had at a startup was pretty average while my med shadowing position was one of those everyday is something new type things)

I'm torn. My plan if I go to medicine is to work abroad, and my eventual goal is to start a clinic abroad, so you can tell that this whole business thing is still coming in. I'm kind of worried ill get bored of the same cases over and over again when i become a doctor I guess, and this is the wrong time to be career change for me. Great.

If i decide to back out of my BS/MD i have 2 days. And I honestly dont have any (equivalently prestigious) option to turn to; i was kind of forced to apply to too many safeties.
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Dr Love said:
Even after getting an MD, you can go into business. In fact, the degree will add a certain prestige if you want to get involved in healthcare work. I've spoken to a lot of MDs who were applying to jobs at McKinsey or BCG where they could make 150-200k a year fresh out of med school.

You can also back out of the BS/MD half-way through and get a degree in something else. What you can't do is apply for a BS/MD while an undergrad.
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I think suggesting that this is common by stating that you've spoken to "a lot" of these folks probably sends an inaccurate message. This is NOT a common path. It's a rarity. A very small handful (less than .01%) of US allo seniors go the consulting route. They almost invariably come from one of the top med schools, and almost invariably had backgrounds that probably would have let them do consulting right out of college had they wanted to. Don't go to med school expecting to go into business. It's a losing proposition. You will spend $200k in tuition to make yourself less employable. Only go to med school if you plan to be a doctor.
 
Go. You can always drop the /MD, stay in college for 4 years and walk out with a BS degree. You aren't locked in as a college freshman and you can take a couple of years to decide if this this the right path or if something else is a better fit.


Things change all the time... we know more about many diseases than we did 25 years ago when people my age finished residency and went into practice. There are even a few diseases that we didn't know existed back then. We have new drugs to treat disease. We have new tools, new implantable devices, new techniques, new ways to treat side effects. There is always something new to learn. To be a good physician is to be a life-long learner so you will not be doing the same thing over and over.... you will be doing different things one year to the next.
 
LizzyM said:
Go. You can always drop the /MD, stay in college for 4 years and walk out with a BS degree. You aren't locked in as a college freshman and you can take a couple of years to decide if this this the right path or if something else is a better fit.


Things change all the time... we know more about many diseases than we did 25 years ago when people my age finished residency and went into practice. There are even a few diseases that we didn't know existed back then. We have new drugs to treat disease. We have new tools, new implantable devices, new techniques, new ways to treat side effects. There is always something new to learn. To be a good physician is to be a life-long learner so you will not be doing the same thing over and over.... you will be doing different things one year to the next.
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+1

Everyone has doubts, and plus, with this crazy economy chances are you'll regret letting go of that MD acceptance that you had in your hand sometime down the road. There are a plethora of fields in medicine and I'm sure you can find one that suits you.
 
Law2Doc said:
If you aren't sold on medicine don't do it. Seriously. It's not for everyone, and from what I'm reading in your post, I'm not sure it's for you. You can always do it later, even decades later (as you can see on the nontrad board) if you choose. But it's a lot of work and will demand a lot of focus for the next decade +, so if you aren't into it at this point it's a really bad mindset to start with, and you will end up doing poorly and going through a lot of crap. Find a way to get out. If you change your mind, med schools will always be there.
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I do understand the OP's hesitation and other interests as he goes into med school. I think everyone, even people already in med school, think about other ways they could have spent their time. Not all these thoughts necessarily mean you should quit medicine. Once you get these sorts of thoughts, you should sit down and analyze them. Medicine is a long commitment!

You're right about questioning the OP's intent though. An intern once told me that medicine is like a ponzi scheme. As you move up the pyramid, you're guaranteed more satisfaction / less work / more money / etc., but in reality, when you go from being an intern to a resident to an internist to a specialist, your satisfaction is similar and workload doesn't change much. I know this isn't true for some specialties, but the point is that if you want to be a doctor, it's difficult to maintain your motivation and satisfaction as you move up the pyramid. If you waver in your motivation and work ethic for too long, you'd miss out on your specialty / job / residency of choice. Medicine is one of the most competitive fields out there because you're sometimes competing with people who truly love the field. If you don't enjoy it as much, then you'll have to swallow the workload no matter how bad it tastes.
 
I think everyone that posted before me summarized what you need to do. usually when you are unsure about medicine, shadowing is the answer. but since you have shadowing experience and didnt like it, just change to something you like. a good advice that i will never forget is doing something you like and succeeding in it is better than doing something you hate and failing at it, even if what you hate is better in the eyes of others. this quote can prob be said nicer lol but you get the point 😀
 
LizzyM said:
Go. You can always drop the /MD, stay in college for 4 years and walk out with a BS degree. You aren't locked in as a college freshman and you can take a couple of years to decide if this this the right path or if something else is a better fit.


Things change all the time... we know more about many diseases than we did 25 years ago when people my age finished residency and went into practice. There are even a few diseases that we didn't know existed back then. We have new drugs to treat disease. We have new tools, new implantable devices, new techniques, new ways to treat side effects. There is always something new to learn. To be a good physician is to be a life-long learner so you will not be doing the same thing over and over.... you will be doing different things one year to the next.
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A HUGE + whatever.

Know that by doing this, you go to a good UG institution and will still have the option to reconsider if it comes to it. You aren't legally bound to do the MD program, and it's not like they can't give the spot to someone else if you drop out.

However, if you do decide to do medicine over your UG career you will save yourself a lot of money, time, and headache by having this option open to you.
 
justarandomuser said:
If i decide to back out of my BS/MD i have 2 days. And I honestly dont have any (equivalently prestigious) option to turn to; i was kind of forced to apply to too many safeties.
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What other options do you have, and what other financial aid do you have at each of them?
 
justarandomuser said:
Im a high school senior. I got into the BS/MD at George Washington University and even though i was 100% sure when i applied, im starting to have doubts. I have a lot of shadowing experience under my belt, and have even scrubbed in to surgeries, but the main interest for me in med school was always the whole people aspect. Yes, giving back is great and important and gives you the bubbly feeling and all, but what i liked best when looking at cases was seeing doctors talk their way into a diagnosis, then reaffirm it with tools. I guess its a power thing too; I like the idea of having the ability to know what was wrong with people and to fix them up.
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Find a quiet place and write down a pro-con chart for medicine and a separate one for business. Write down the first thing that comes to mind and don't think twice about it. When done, compare what you have on both charts.

Hope this helps.
 
My vote would be for you to go to med school. You are in! That is the hardest part. You can always pick up something else afterwards, and you will have your MD to always fall back on. Take it from me, I am 37 yrs old and wish like hell I had done it the other way around. Also, the business world sucks! To make good money takes a hell of a lot of luck and being in the right place at the right time. It is much easier to get a business degree than getting into med school.
 
Actually, the ug institute isnt gw; its another smaller (not very reputed) institution, from which I think it would be hard to get into another grad school. However, I do have the flexibility of getting my MBA DURING my time at the ug school, which is what was my initial attraction to the program. Like all BS/MD programs, it was pretty hard to get into, hence my hesitation.

I really love medicine, and I guess one thing I forgot to mention is that i really like how with medicine you're actually doing something of use, rather than selling someone products or smt, which was kind of the push. I dont feel like I would get that in a marketing type field. I'm just afraid that these doubts will grow as I get older and the what-if's will keep coming back. I'm also pretty worried that I wont be challenged in the medical field, because from what i've seen while shadowing, most of the cases are the same. It just becomes a process of recognition, without really a challenge i guess? I've been shadowing for about 2 years (in 2 different speciality areas), so its possible i've just been shadowing too long, and kind of have that urge to start doing.

EDIT: The reason I didnt mention the undergradute school is because I wouldnt want this thread to show up on google because its kind of revealing. (Its a small school so most threads about it show up on google too). I would appreciate if you didnt name it, but theres only one other institute that feeds into GW. Its an 8 year program.
 
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justarandomuser said:
Actually, the ug institute isnt gw; its another smaller (not very reputed) institution, from which I think it would be hard to get into another grad school.
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Wrong. Your undergrad institution has very little effect on med school admissions. I went to a non-prestigious state school that is essentially open enrollment (you need a 21 ACT), and ended up doing well.
 
you're making all the hsdn kiddies cry, you bad man
 
LizzyM said:
Go. You can always drop the /MD, stay in college for 4 years and walk out with a BS degree. You aren't locked in as a college freshman and you can take a couple of years to decide if this this the right path or if something else is a better fit.
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👍👍👍👍
Listen to her. Can you imagine how upset you'd be if, say, you get a business internship sophomore year, don't like it, and switch back to pre-med...but gave up this program? Somewhere around here is a thread where people detailed how much they spent applying to medical school; a lot of them spent around $5000, not to mention countless hours of stress and frustration. What you have right now is the best of both worlds: I am sure you can fit in a business minor, or maybe even a double major, with your BS/MD program. Why not do that, continue shadowing, and check out a business internship at the same time? Don't give up the sure thing until you're absolutely positive it's not for you.
 
kexy said:
👍👍👍👍
Listen to her. Can you imagine how upset you'd be if, say, you get a business internship sophomore year, don't like it, and switch back to pre-med...but gave up this program? Somewhere around here is a thread where people detailed how much they spent applying to medical school; a lot of them spent around $5000, not to mention countless hours of stress and frustration. What you have right now is the best of both worlds: I am sure you can fit in a business minor, or maybe even a double major, with your BS/MD program. Why not do that, continue shadowing, and check out a business internship at the same time? Don't give up the sure thing until you're absolutely positive it's not for you.
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Or, more eloquently put:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdfeW2h8Qo4
 
LizzyM said:
Go. You can always drop the /MD, stay in college for 4 years and walk out with a BS degree. You aren't locked in as a college freshman and you can take a couple of years to decide if this this the right path or if something else is a better fit.


Things change all the time... we know more about many diseases than we did 25 years ago when people my age finished residency and went into practice. There are even a few diseases that we didn't know existed back then. We have new drugs to treat disease. We have new tools, new implantable devices, new techniques, new ways to treat side effects. There is always something new to learn. To be a good physician is to be a life-long learner so you will not be doing the same thing over and over.... you will be doing different things one year to the next.
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the thing is, if he got into GWU's BS/MD (a very, very competitive program), odds are he also has Ivy-League and top 10 schools on hand, which makes his decision even harder. Plus, I'm pretty sure I know the feeder school that the OP is going to (if it's the rural school I am thinking of), and it's in a highly undesirable location, not prestigious, and will very much limit his post-grad opportunities if he drops the /MD part.

If he does ultimately decide to go the business route, having an elite undergrad degree counts for a lot. Business is not like medicine where it's just about getting the highest grades/scores...having elite degrees and the alumni network it provides is HUGE

EDIT: OP doesn't have any other options with top schools. In that case, you might as well take the deal, and hopefully you'll realize medicine is what you want.
 
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patel2 said:
the thing is, if he got into GWU's BS/MD (a very, very competitive program), odds are he also has Ivy-League and top 10 schools on hand, which makes his decision even harder.

If he does ultimately decide to go the business route, having an elite undergrad degree counts for a lot. Business is not like medicine where it's just about getting the highest grades/scores...having elite degrees and the alumni network it provides is HUGE
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OP said he didn't have many equally or more prestigious choices. I agree with you that sacrificing a big name undergrad for a BS/MD when you're not sure about medicine could be a big mistake.. but it doesn't look like OP would be doing that.
 
patel2 said:
the thing is, if he got into GWU's BS/MD (a very, very competitive program), odds are he also has Ivy-League and top 10 schools on hand, which makes his decision even harder. Plus, I'm pretty sure I know the feeder school that the OP is going to (if it's the rural school I am thinking of), and it's in a highly undesirable location, not prestigious, and will very much limit his post-grad opportunities if he drops the /MD part.

If he does ultimately decide to go the business route, having an elite undergrad degree counts for a lot. Business is not like medicine where it's just about getting the highest grades/scores...having elite degrees and the alumni network it provides is HUGE
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Right, but the OP said they *don't* have other "equally prestigious" options to turn to...which could mean that they either chose strangely in what schools to apply to or had a rough time with the regular admissions process. (Or has a warped idea of what a good option is.) Otherwise, I agree with your post.

IMHO, what matters is what are the actual other options the OP has. The OP is making the common mistake of thinking that just because something is hard to get into, that makes it "better." But as the OP is figuring out, while it seems impressive that he got into a BS/MD program, it's worthless if the OP doesn't actually want to go to medicine. If the OP didn't want to go into medicine in the first place, s/he would probably have been better off focusing on the top regular BA or BS programs rather than chasing a combined program.

So, while the OP says that their other options aren't "prestigious enough" I would encourage the OP to take a step back, take a reality check and really look at their options. If the other options are honestly worse than the undergrad institution that's part of this BS/MD deal then I agree with LizzyM and the OP should accept the BS/MD with the option of dropping the /MD part. (Especially as, with a little googling, it seems that this program requires the OP to be in a specific major, which would limit the OP's ability to explore other options?) But, if the undergrad institution itself is seriously worse than the OP's other undergrad options, I'd say the OP should pick the best undergrad option rather the combined program. (And OP, remember that "good vs bad" isn't judged by the acceptance percentage or what your friend thinks, but whether this school has the faculty, curriculum and track record that will help you reach your career goals.) Worst case scenario there is that the OP decides they *do* want to go into medicine and just apply to med school on their own...if they were good enough to get into this program, if they keep that up in college then the OP won't have much trouble getting into med school...particularly as I expect the OP's other undergrad options aren't as dismal as s/he makes them appear.

:luck:
 
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Well my next best bet is UC santa barbara or UC davis, so not exactly the best choices imho. I was forced to apply to schools I didnt want to go to, then my mom told me we didnt have money to apply to ones I wanted to apply to (cornell, tufts, etc.). This program too was VERY hard to get into, but is fairly new and looks more holistically at students.
 
justarandomuser said:
Well my next best bet is UC santa barbara or UC davis, so not exactly the best choices imho. I was forced to apply to schools I didnt want to go to, then my mom told me we didnt have money to apply to ones I wanted to apply to (cornell, tufts, etc.). This program too was VERY hard to get into, but is fairly new and looks more holistically at students.
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So could you get the BS and not get the MD if you change your mind later? A bird in hand is worth two in the bush. It seems like you should join the program. If you decide not to get the MD while you're getting your BS, just drop out of the latter portion, right?
 
^You are correct; I could. But it would significantly bar me from getting a top job because of the school (the ug isnt very reputed).
 
justarandomuser said:
^You are correct; I could. But it would significantly bar me from getting a top job because of the school (the ug isnt very reputed).
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It's a big assumption on your part that you could get a top job from another school that would accept you.
 
Just my opinion, if I couldn't make the 8 (or 7?) year commitment I wouldn't, as GWU also costs a ****load compared to UCs (please tell me you've been offered some kind of financial aid). OP, you were great enough to get into the GWU BS/MD program, maybe you'll be just fine at any UC school, and can apply again later.

It's a hard decision, but at the end of the day, you've got great choices!
 
We should have a funeral for this kid's childhood.
 
powertoold said:
I do understand the OP's hesitation and other interests as he goes into med school. I think everyone, even people already in med school, think about other ways they could have spent their time. Not all these thoughts necessarily mean you should quit medicine. Once you get these sorts of thoughts, you should sit down and analyze them. Medicine is a long commitment!

You're right about questioning the OP's intent though. An intern once told me that medicine is like a ponzi scheme. As you move up the pyramid, you're guaranteed more satisfaction / less work / more money / etc., but in reality, when you go from being an intern to a resident to an internist to a specialist, your satisfaction is similar and workload doesn't change much. I know this isn't true for some specialties, but the point is that if you want to be a doctor, it's difficult to maintain your motivation and satisfaction as you move up the pyramid. If you waver in your motivation and work ethic for too long, you'd miss out on your specialty / job / residency of choice. Medicine is one of the most competitive fields out there because you're sometimes competing with people who truly love the field. If you don't enjoy it as much, then you'll have to swallow the workload no matter how bad it tastes.
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I think the pyramidal structure you describe went by the wayside some time ago when medicine became an insurance reimbursement driven field. The opportunity to work less and still make bank simply isn't there in most fields. In many fields that part-time options exist, it comes with a heavy price on your career progression and income. In many (most?) specialties you now have to work longer hours to make the same kind of income that folks used to make in years past. Meaning you are going to still have a nice income, but while a junior attending you may see a lot of interns going home after an overnight shift while you don't usually get the same kind of post-call day even when you ended up called back to the hospital for most of the night during a call night. In some fields attendings are going to be working at least as hard as residents at least during the first decade of employment.

At any rate, having been through med school and part of residency, I can assure you that if it's not what you want to do, you have no business being here. You will do poorly, will squander your youth, will be generally miserable, and will be a cancer to the profession. It's not something you can dabble in -- you are either "all in" or you want to steer clear of it. That's all there is to it. So if the OP isn't all that into medicine and knows something else he'd rather be doing, I think the answer is pretty clear. Do that something else. Those on this thread suggesting that the OP do med school and residency with the notion that they can always do an MBA afterwards totally underestimate what is involved in med school and residency. NEVER EVER go into med school figuring, "well, if I don't like it, I can always get X degree on top". That's a recipe for a miserable life and probably someone dropping out of med school with $200k in debt. Med school and residency are not things you can dabble in, coast through. It will demand a lot of focus, a lot of hours; more hours than you are going to be willing to invest if that's not your ultimate career goal. Look at it like the armed service, but if they made you pay rather than the other way round. Nobody would say, I'll pay $200k to join the army for 10 years because if I get an MBA on top afterwards it might help me get a good job. You just can't ignore the difficulty of those 10 years when making that assessment.

There are usually other options to just do a liberal arts education while you decide which direction you want to go. The route to marketing is usually to get a liberal arts college degree with a number of undergrad business courses and then get a job in a marketing related field. A few years down the road, you have your employer pay for you to get an MBA, after which you get promoted to a middle management position. If you are really good, you move up beyond that. There is no reason for an MD on this path. There is no value to a residency on this path. This path has it's own forms of difficulty, but if it's on your desired career path, you will stomach it better than you will spending every third night up all night in an ICU.
 
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justarandomuser said:
Well my next best bet is UC santa barbara or UC davis, so not exactly the best choices imho. I was forced to apply to schools I didnt want to go to, then my mom told me we didnt have money to apply to ones I wanted to apply to (cornell, tufts, etc.). This program too was VERY hard to get into, but is fairly new and looks more holistically at students.
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this is a crying shame. anyone who gets into a BS/MD program would also likely gain acceptances to schools like Tufts or Cornell. tell your mom i said so.

justarandomuser said:
^You are correct; I could. But it would significantly bar me from getting a top job because of the school (the ug isnt very reputed).
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don't go thinking UCSB or UCI are that much better for career prospects. no one gives a ***t about where you went for undergrad unless it's the tippetty-tip-top. most private colleges, for example, aren't worth the sticker price.
 
Oh... also.. don't rule out the possibility of transfer. If you're in this awesome BS/MD program, decide against medicine, and have excelled in college (>3.9 and involvement on campus), you should be able to transfer to a "more prestigious" school after your freshman year if you decide to go the business route.
 
This is why I don't understand BS/MD programs. If a central focus of a traditional applicant's PS is to explain 'Why MD?,' how can these schools expect that high schoolers are making a responsible decision?
Even if the high school applicant has an impressive amount of exposure to the medical field (almost definitely forced on them by their parents), they have yet to experience the critical developmental years of college that often form the foundation for a traditional applicant's desire to go into medicine.

What are everyone else's thoughts on these programs?
 
GooseWing said:
This is why I don't understand BS/MD programs. If a central focus of a traditional applicant's PS is to explain 'Why MD?,' how can these schools expect that high schoolers are making a responsible decision?
Even if the high school applicant has an impressive amount of exposure to the medical field (almost definitely forced on them by their parents), they have yet to experience the critical developmental years of college that often form the foundation for a traditional applicant's desire to go into medicine.

What are everyone else's thoughts on these programs?
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To my knowledge, most other countries do not require a college degree to go to medical school, rather, they go straight from high school. Do you think they all have it wrong?
 
FIREitUP said:
To my knowledge, most other countries do not require a college degree to go to medical school, rather, they go straight from high school. Do you think they all have it wrong?
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No. Speaking strictly about the US system, I think that the presence of BS/MD programs undermines the perceived 'need' for a traditional applicant to have ample clinical volunteering/shadowing hours as well as more than just a superficial reason for going into medicine.

You cannot tell me that a high schooler has invested the time or engaged in the soul-searching required to determine whether or not a career in medicine is the right choice for him/her. Yet for some reason traditional applicant's are held to a very high standard when it comes to explaining their reasoning for applying to medical school.
 
GooseWing said:
This is why I don't understand BS/MD programs. If a central focus of a traditional applicant's PS is to explain 'Why MD?,' how can these schools expect that high schoolers are making a responsible decision?
Even if the high school applicant has an impressive amount of exposure to the medical field (almost definitely forced on them by their parents), they have yet to experience the critical developmental years of college that often form the foundation for a traditional applicant's desire to go into medicine.

What are everyone else's thoughts on these programs?
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as others have said, college is completely worthless to being a physician. You'll realize this as you get older and actually apply. Now don't get me wrong; college is a great time to get drunk, party a lot, and learn some nifty facts about sociology, but it's also a huge waste of money and has significant opportunity costs. I would contend that it also plays a role in why less people go into primary care, since with more debt/years of schooling, people feel a need to make greater money just to make up for lost income. We should do what every other country in the world does and just have a 5-6 year med school degree right out of HS.

And actually, studies show that true FMGs (who typically go to medicine right out of HS) have the best outcomes of any group of physicians. One could argue that if HS students aren't "mature" enough to decide on medicine, then why are college students? Wouldn't a 30 year old non-trad be far wiser and more mature to decide medicine is what they want, compared to a 20 year old? Should we require all college grads to join the peace corps/teach for america/work a research job for 3 years just "to be sure they know what they are getting into"?

Our system is flawed; you don't need some asinine liberal arts degree in women's studies to be a competent physician (yes mad)
 
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GooseWing said:
No. Speaking strictly about the US system, I think that the presence of BS/MD programs undermines the perceived 'need' for a traditional applicant to have ample clinical volunteering/shadowing hours as well as more than just a superficial reason for going into medicine.

You cannot tell me that a high schooler has invested the time or engaged in the soul-searching required to determine whether or not a career in medicine is the right choice for him/her. Yet for some reason traditional applicant's are held to a very high standard when it comes to explaining their reasoning for applying to medical school.
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Why do you think the US needs this prolonged acclimation with the medicine prior to deciding it is their career choice, while other countries are fine without it is my question? Personally, I think getting a bachelor's degree is a complete and utter waste of time.
 
FIREitUP said:
To my knowledge, most other countries do not require a college degree to go to medical school, rather, they go straight from high school. Do you think they all have it wrong?
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Actually, the US system was set up the way it is on the premise that yes, they have it all wrong. These other systems existed first. The US med schools evolved into graduate professional schools precisely because it was felt that every professional should have a liberal arts education first, and thereafter become a man of letters. This approach was embraced, and we never looked back.

Truth of the matter is that BS/MD programs have at least partially fallen out of favor, and there are fewer of them now than even not that long ago when I was looking at med schools. I expect this trend to continue. The "why medicine?" approach looms large in admissions committees, as does the need for premedical clinical exposure, the push to get diverse applicants from a wide range of backgrounds and majors, and a variety of other educational corollaries that make combined programs less desirable paths for the profession.

Not that I haven't met folks who did combined programs and are solid. Just that they focused in on a goal so early that they never really had the chance to see what else was out there, and as a result got some of the least broad college experiences possible.
 
FIREitUP said:
Why do you think the US needs this prolonged acclimation with the medicine prior to deciding it is their career choice, while other countries are fine without it is my question? Personally, I think getting a bachelor's degree is a complete and utter waste of time.
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You are going to see that medicine is less a science than a service industry, and so a broad educational base from a liberal arts education is going to reap more benefits than you think. The person who learned a foreign language is going to get a lot of mileage out of that in medicine. The person who took business courses is going to be at less of a disadvantage in understanding the business of medicine, something typically not taught, but essential in the field. Patients are going to have a lot more common ground to talk to you if you went to college, took courses outside of the sciences. And being 4 years older gives patients a lot more comfort that you actually know what you are doing than a youngster in a white coat.
 
Law2Doc said:
The person who learned a foreign language is going to get a lot of mileage out of that in medicine. The person who took business courses is going to be at less of a disadvantage in understanding the business of medicine, something typically not taught, but essential in the field. Patients are going to have a lot more common ground to talk to you if you went to college, took courses outside of the sciences. And being 4 years older gives patients a lot more comfort that you actually know what you are doing than a youngster in a white coat.
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My patients are mostly newborns and their parents are mostly adolescents. I'm not sure that my college degree (which BS/MD students get...) allows us to shoot the breeze more than if I had gotten a street education in the drugs they were using. 😉

Do you think fluency in a foreign language should be a pre-med requirement? How about a certain number of business courses?

Oh yes, I graduated from a US medical school prior to my 25th birthday and never thought it was an issue anywhere. YMMV.
 
Law2Doc said:
The US med schools evolved into graduate professional schools precisely because it was felt that every professional should have a liberal arts education first, and thereafter become a man of letters.
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Reference? I don't disagree with this, but would be curious who made this determination and when. I don't think this is part of the Flexner report, but if so, would be interested in what was said about it. I thought this was a historical curiosity of the US medical schools being independent initially of colleges, but I am willing to be shown that it was by design.

Why do you think the British and Indians have not changed their system? Is there any objective evidence that the US system is better?
 
Law2Doc said:
You are going to see that medicine is less a science than a service industry, and so a broad educational base from a liberal arts education is going to reap more benefits than you think. The person who learned a foreign language is going to get a lot of mileage out of that in medicine. The person who took business courses is going to be at less of a disadvantage in understanding the business of medicine, something typically not taught, but essential in the field. Patients are going to have a lot more common ground to talk to you if you went to college, took courses outside of the sciences. And being 4 years older gives patients a lot more comfort that you actually know what you are doing than a youngster in a white coat.
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Do you not agree that four years of your life could be spent more productively than taking prerequisites and trying to fit in courses required to graduate with your degree? The reason's you've cited a bachelor's degree is necessary can be solved in pre-secondary education (i.e, better foreign language requirements) and integrated into medical school education (i.e., business courses). I don't really look forward to finding common ground with my patients on how we both were drunk and banged fat chicks back in college.
 
From what I can tell, these programs benefit the undergrad institutions by attracting students with great stats who would otherwise go to a higher ranked undergrad institution. This helps undergrad schools boost their ratings. I can't see any benefit for the medical schools and I'm not sure why they participate, particularly those that are not affiliated with the undergrad institution.
 
GooseWing said:
You cannot tell me that a high schooler has invested the time or engaged in the soul-searching required to determine whether or not a career in medicine is the right choice for him/her. Yet for some reason traditional applicant's are held to a very high standard when it comes to explaining their reasoning for applying to medical school.
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I disagree with this. At least for me, I spent a LOT of time doing this soul searching, even though it was kind of rushed for me (done over a period of 4-5 months). I also would argue that the amount of shadowing/clinical work that I have done is comparable to that of an applying med student (though possibly that of a low to mid med school applicant; age has been a significant barrier when searching for opportunities). BS/MD kids ARE held a high standard when it comes to explaining the why med (as seen in the interviews), arguably a higher standard than kids applying to med school.


Costwise, UC's would be more expensive, at least for undergrad. This college will cost me about 20k a year to attend, including room and board, which is pretty good compared to UC's 35k. However, GW is going to be really expensive, which i guess is the main downside to this program.

Either way, other option is to take a gap year and apply to ivies and schools which i should've applied to. Even then its pretty risky though; no guarantee of me getting in.
 
LizzyM said:
From what I can tell, these programs benefit the undergrad institutions by attracting students with great stats who would otherwise go to a higher ranked undergrad institution. This helps undergrad schools boost their ratings. I can't see any benefit for the medical schools and I'm not sure why they participate, particularly those that are not affiliated with the undergrad institution.
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As an individual who got into the undergrad/MD early assurance program at my undergrad, I have often wondered why undergrad/MD programs exist myself. When I was accepted, I had lower GPA and ACT scores than many other individuals at my undergrad. A sure tell of this is that the majority (50+% ) of my class had some sort of merit-based scholarship for my undergrad, but I did not. I ended up paying the majority of my undergrad in loans (got some need-based assistance) and lost my early assurance due to a lower GPA [I didn't make the cut-off to maintain the acceptance]. I did not get in to the under/MD program to help my school's stats, but I probably helped their budget. 🙁 I now have ~100k in loans just from undergrad... if I had continued to my undergrad's MD program, I would end up with 300+k in loans. And that's before taxes.

At times, I regret attending the institution that I did for undergrad... but at the same time, I loved my experience there. I more so regret accepting the undergrad/MD early assurance program because it caused me much more stress as I constantly worried about my GPA and making the cut. Instead of studying, I would be trying to figure out how to salvage my GPA. Once I gave up on getting into the med school that accepted me in high school, I was less stressed and my grades dramatically improved. Even studying for the MCAT and applying (twice) was less stressful @ times than the fear that I was going to get kicked out of this early assurance program. I had never been an A-obsessed student, and suddenly, fearing every bad grade just really stressed me out. I know that's the "typical" pre-med experience... but I would have rather had that stress without the fear of knowing I was losing a med school acceptance every time I got an additional B.

Regarding GooseWing, my parents didn't push me into learning about medicine. They did help support some of my decisions. I had lots of experiences during high school to solidify my desire to be a doc and not a nurse/technician/PT/ect. Undergrad made me grow as a person, but it didn't help give me more reasons for "Why MD?" -- just gave me more experiences to talk about.
 
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justarandomuser said:
I disagree with this. At least for me, I spent a LOT of time doing this soul searching, even though it was kind of rushed for me (done over a period of 4-5 months). I also would argue that the amount of shadowing/clinical work that I have done is comparable to that of an applying med student (though possibly that of a low to mid med school applicant; age has been a significant barrier when searching for opportunities). BS/MD kids ARE held a high standard when it comes to explaining the why med (as seen in the interviews), arguably a higher standard than kids applying to med school.
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:laugh:

Why this whole thread, then?
 
Avoidthetiger, if you dont mind me asking, what BS/MD program did you attend? What was the GPA cutoff?

Im in a similar position. My hs GPA isnt very strong (it was the minimum gpa required to apply), and i have to pay 12k more than the other kids because of my GPA. How did your ACT/SAT/AP scores compare?

Farrago - I honestly dont know. I think its because of some things that have happened after I got in. This whole doubt thing started when i had a freudian slip with someone, telling that "What i dont want to do medicine" instead of saying "what if i dont want to go to GW", while discussing this BS/MD. The way my family and parents reacted was another huge turn off; all of them were happy i was going to become a doctor, rather than being happy for me for getting into GW. I guess I didnt really see before how much my family kind of subtly pushed me into medicine. I guess sometimes the line blurs between how much I would love working in the field vs how much my parents would love me working in the field. Third thing is a whole "Do I want to live my life for me, or someone else" sentiment. I know that if I go into medicine, and am practicing, I'm going to do something meaningful with that knowledge (read: become a workaholic). If I have the power to save lives, I will do just that, and i'll be really upset with myself if im not making the most of it. With sales, you arent really helping anyone anyways, so you dont have an obligation to your job.

Thanks everyone. I can see what was going through my head that day, but i realize that when im at the clinic im the happiest person on earth, and i know that if I were to go into business I would always have that feeling like "I'm not doing anything meaningful; I'm living a wasted life". Furthermore, the reasons for my doubt arent really good reasons at all.

I still feel cornered by the BS/MD program, however. As much as I wish I applied to proper schools, I cant really turn back the clock, and even if I did (or were to have a gap year) theres no guarantee of me getting in; as i said before my highschool GPA isnt good on an ivy league scale; though my SAT 1's, 2's, ACT, extracurriculars, Community college GPA, AP scores, and Letters of req are good and made up for it for the BS/MD program, theres no guarantee of it making up for it elsewhere. My parents still laugh at me when I say I should've applied to cornell, and i'm kind of looking forward to getting out of the house (114 days!), so a gap year is out of the question. Ah well, even if the school isnt a perfect fit for me, its still a good opportunity and i should make the most of it.
 
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So many people apply to GW each year, and would kill to get accepted, and here we have this child/person who doesn't actually know if he wants to be a doctor, had mediocre grades, and apparently doesn't even want to work in the US (he wants to open a clinic abroad), and he gets in.

Sigh.
 
farrago said:
So many people apply to GW each year, and would kill to get accepted, and here we have this child/person who doesn't actually know if he wants to be a doctor, had mediocre grades, and apparently doesn't even want to work in the US (he wants to open a clinic abroad), and he gets in.

Sigh.
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Hey. Um just for the record, I worked really hard in highschool and my "mediocre" grades are the result of me taking the hardest classes at my school +more at my community college (where i do have a 4.0), while doing sports and a lot of extracurriculars. Its a lot harder to get a 4.0 in highschool when you dont come home till 9pm every night.

And who said I didnt want to work in the US? My goal as a doctor would be to help as many people as possible. Shouldn't that be the goal? I honestly dont know exactly WHAT im going to do when I get older, but I am going to work here for some time, and if I feel like im doing enough for the community here, then there wont be a need to go abroad. But just from the places i've worked, i've seen this prove itself to be false. IMHO, the biggest way for me to make a difference would be to start a chain of medical clinics abroad, but this idea is quite idealistic, and I'll probably tweak this, or even completely change this idea as I grow older.
 
justarandomuser said:
Hey. Um just for the record, I worked really hard in highschool and my "mediocre" grades are the result of me taking the hardest classes at my school +more at my community college (where i do have a 4.0), while doing sports and a lot of extracurriculars. Its a lot harder to get a 4.0 in highschool when you dont come home till 9pm every night.

And who said I didnt want to work in the US? My goal as a doctor would be to help as many people as possible. Shouldn't that be the goal? I honestly dont know exactly WHAT im going to do when I get older, but I am going to work here for some time, and if I feel like im doing enough for the community here, then there wont be a need to go abroad. But just from the places i've worked, i've seen this prove itself to be false. IMHO, the biggest way for me to make a difference would be to start a chain of medical clinics abroad, but this idea is quite idealistic, and I'll probably tweak this, or even completely change this idea as I grow older.
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You're fine, although it's hard to hear you from so far up Paul Farmer's colon. Don't worry about the haters, it's the result of a lot of frustration over how hard it is to get into med school. From where I'm sitting there's no downside to going to this program.
 
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justarandomuser said:
Hey. Um just for the record, I worked really hard in highschool and my "mediocre" grades are the result of me taking the hardest classes at my school +more at my community college (where i do have a 4.0), while doing sports and a lot of extracurriculars. Its a lot harder to get a 4.0 in highschool when you dont come home till 9pm every night.
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Eh, it's harder, but since every year tens thousands of applicants get excellent grades/scores AND take the hardest courses and a slew of sports/extracurriculars you don't get much sympathy from me. Those are the people, FYI, who are applying to (and getting accepted into) the Ivies and other top schools, so I would think long and hard before giving up an acceptance this year (be it the BS/MD or the UCs) in favor of trying again in the regular cycle. (Read: don't do it.)
 
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