22 New Med School in 3 Years

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cautiousvampire

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Nothing to worry about. The latest projections I saw predicted a shortage of ~35,000 physicians in a decade or 2. The combined output from all of these schools is maybe ~3,000/yr. We need more physicians so it follows that more medical schools should be formed.
 
There is still a "projected" shortage of pharmacists. Most new grads are unemployed.
 
cautiousvampire said:
This seems like way too many. Anyone else worried? What happens when the baby boomers die and demand slows down? Won't everyone see salary cuts. Obviously IMGs and to a lesser extent DOs will have a harder time landing residencies...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_medical_schools_in_the_United_States

(scroll to very bottom for list)
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Simple answer to all your problems:

Be the best.

Regardless of recession, boom, downfall, uprise, if you are in the top 10% in your field, you will always have a job and earn good pay.

Be in the top 10% in skills, knowledge, innovation, attitude, and networking.
 
MCAT guy said:
Simple answer to all your problems:

Be the best.

Regardless of recession, boom, downfall, uprise, if you are in the top 10% in your field, you will always have a job and earn good pay.

Be in the top 10% in skills, knowledge, innovation, attitude, and networking.
Click to expand...

Thats cute, it really is. But being the best during medical school has quite a bit to do with natural intelligence. Even passing medical school is absolutely killer. Now we have to be in the top 10%. Furthermore, I would imagine that the top 10% (for GPA and Step 1 Scores) is composed primarily of people who are much more naturally intelligent than the average med student. There may be a few who worked there tail off to get there, but many just don;t have the intelligence/dedication. Medicine is a long, difficult, and draining process. This is making it more difficult and diminishing the rewards. Sad...
 
No residency increase though, so I'm cool with it. The effects of this are going to be more along the lines of increasing residency competition (which will be especially bad news for IMGs). Unless they decide to increase residency spots (unlikely since it's expensive), then we can all sing the doom song.

bucks2010 said:
Nothing to worry about. The latest projections I saw predicted a shortage of ~35,000 physicians in a decade or 2. The combined output from all of these schools is maybe ~3,000/yr. We need more physicians so it follows that more medical schools should be formed.
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Those predictions are notoriously inaccurate.
 
cautious, I think you've made up your mind and aren't going to listen to anyone else.

Maybe you're right and should go look for another profession.
 
cautiousvampire said:
Thats cute, it really is. But being the best during medical school has quite a bit to do with natural intelligence. Even passing medical school is absolutely killer. Now we have to be in the top 10%. Furthermore, I would imagine that the top 10% (for GPA and Step 1 Scores) is composed primarily of people who are much more naturally intelligent than the average med student. There may be a few who worked there tail off to get there, but many just don;t have the intelligence/dedication. Medicine is a long, difficult, and draining process. This is making it more difficult and diminishing the rewards. Sad...
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You will see once you enter the real world, that being the best isn't all about #'s. It will be somewhat when you obtain your residency (i.e. ortho vs. family medicine) BUT you would be surprised how much your attitude, personality, people skills, networking, business savvy and work ethic factor into being in the top 10%.

If you've finished med school, residency, and are board certified, then your natural intelligence won't matter as much as all the factors I mentioned above.

It's not cute, it's the difference between "real world" and "school". If you've worked outside of school, you would know I'm not just spewing BS.
 
bucks2010 said:
cautious, I think you've made up your mind and aren't going to listen to anyone else.

Maybe you're right and should go look for another profession.
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Here's cautiousvampire, ready to take on the world...

pbf167punchbout.gif
 
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You should only be scared of this if you are a carribean med student. These schools will go a long way to putting them out of business by making it impossible for their students to get a residency. At the same time, some of the top school like UChicago are actually reducing their class size. It will be a good thing in that more US physicians will be trained by LCME accredited nonprofit schools in the US.
 
MCAT guy said:
You will see once you enter the real world, that being the best isn't all about #'s. It will be somewhat when you obtain your residency (i.e. ortho vs. family medicine) BUT you would be surprised how much your attitude, personality, people skills, networking, business savvy and work ethic factor into being in the top 10%.

If you've finished med school, residency, and are board certified, then your natural intelligence won't matter as much as all the factors I mentioned above.

It's not cute, it's the difference between "real world" and "school". If you've worked outside of school, you would know I'm not just spewing BS.
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So you are a health student at this point in your life. What, exactly, is a health student??
 
searun said:
So you are a health student at this point in your life. What, exactly, is a health student??
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lol, why do you care about my status?

A health student is a person who studies health.
 
When the baby boomers die and demand slows down? That doesn't make sense. Why would demand slow down when the baby boomers die?
 
DrYoda said:
No residency increase though, so I'm cool with it. The effects of this are going to be more along the lines of increasing residency competition (which will be especially bad news for IMGs). Unless they decide to increase residency spots (unlikely since it's expensive), then we can all sing the doom song.
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Key point in bold. 👍

Doesn't matter if a million new med schools opened if the residency slots stay static. You need a minimum of 1 year of residency (though it would be difficult to get hospital privileges, you'll likely have to pay a lot for malpractice coverage, etc, with only one year) in order to practice independently as a physician. Many hospitals/practices seem to be trending towards requiring you to be BE/BC (or so I've been told).
 
Good. America needs more doctors, and the AMA has been part of the problem with our health care crisis in its restriction on entry to the medical profession. For years they have been restricting the number of medical schools and it has only been in recent years that they've changed course.

Doctors may make less if there are more of them, but it would be GOOD for society, and would reflect the reality of the market. Let's not have a unionized profession.

Also, residencies ought to expand now that the number of slots has been frozen for 15 years.
 
Dubaifan490 said:
Good. America needs more doctors, and the AMA has been part of the problem with our health care crisis in its restriction on entry to the medical profession. For years they have been restricting the number of medical schools and it has only been in recent years that they've changed course.

Doctors may make less if there are more of them, but it would be GOOD for society, and would reflect the reality of the market. Let's not have a unionized profession.

Also, residencies ought to expand now that the number of slots has been frozen for 15 years.
Click to expand...

1) It doesn't matter how many new schools open up if there isn't a corresponding increase in residency slots. A residency is essentially required to practice medicine (independently) in the US.

2) As far as I know (and I could be wrong), the AMA doesn't really play a role in accrediting new med schools. The LCME does that for MD schools.

3) Residency positions are paid for by Medicare.

4) Physicians cannot unionize/strike/whatever due to anti-trust laws.

Others can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
 
Keep in mind, too, that there's going to be a lot more demand for healthcare in the near future with the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act going into effect. I doubt anybody really knows how much that'll change things, but adding more consumers into the system should (I would imagine) stretch it more than enough to overcome whatever increased supply there might be from more doctors graduating.
 
cautiousvampire said:
There is still a "projected" shortage of pharmacists. Most new grads are unemployed.
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source? anecdotally, I'm calling BS. I know a half dozen pharmacists who have recently graduated or will do so in the next few weeks. all of them have jobs lined up.
 
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Dubaifan490 said:
Good. America needs more doctors, and the AMA has been part of the problem with our health care crisis in its restriction on entry to the medical profession. For years they have been restricting the number of medical schools and it has only been in recent years that they've changed course.

Doctors may make less if there are more of them, but it would be GOOD for society, and would reflect the reality of the market. Let's not have a unionized profession.

Also, residencies ought to expand now that the number of slots has been frozen for 15 years.
Click to expand...
instant credibility loss
 
^ please read http://www.amazon.com/Social-Transformation-American-Medicine-profession/dp/0465079350 to better understand how we've wound up with our current health care system.

I've seen one too many posts from students concerned with there being too many med students, too many midlevel practicioners, etc. The elitist viewpoints and uninformed herd mentality are just too much.

Goodbye SDN. 👍

Mods: please delete my account
 
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Dubaifan490 said:
Good. America needs more doctors, and the AMA has been part of the problem with our health care crisis in its restriction on entry to the medical profession. For years they have been restricting the number of medical schools and it has only been in recent years that they've changed course.

Doctors may make less if there are more of them, but it would be GOOD for society, and would reflect the reality of the market. Let's not have a unionized profession.

Also, residencies ought to expand now that the number of slots has been frozen for 15 years.
Click to expand...
Why do you think America needs more doctors? Doctors create their own demand. The more doctors, the more money is wasted on unnecessary healthcare.
 
GTS44 said:
^ please read http://www.amazon.com/Social-Transformation-American-Medicine-profession/dp/0465079350 to better understand how we've wound up with our current health care system.

I've seen one too many posts from students concerned with there being too many med students, too many midlevel practicioners, etc. The elitist viewpoints and uninformed herd mentality are just too much.

Goodbye SDN. 👍

Mods: please delete my account
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Yep pre-meds/ med students are bunch of rich elitists 🙄
 
nm was looking at the wrong list. at least i'll be graduating in 4 years so i wont feel the impact that much.
 
MCAT guy said:
lol, why do you care about my status?

A health student is a person who studies health.
Click to expand...

I think I took that class in 8th grade.
 
I looked for a face palm gif/jpeg to sum up my reaction to this thread but as it turns out nothing exists that could possibly do justice to the amount of face-palmage that this thread has inspired within me.
 
This just means that Caribbean grads and FMGs won't be getting US residencies at the current rates. Until they increase the number of residency positions, there's no change whatsoever in the number of new physicians in the US.
 
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Large population and aging population=increase in demand for health care

Small population and younger population=smaller demand than^^
 
The pre-allo forum is filled with overcritical pre-med idiots who jump to criticize. This expansion is unprededented and will change medicine as we know it, whether you like it or not. Will it provide better health care for the general public? Most likely. However, with the exception of those who have the scores to get into competitive specialities, it will change things considerably. And the post-baby boomer argument is entirely valid. Think of it as a bell curve. We are preparing for the top of the curve, at which point supply will meet demand, but unless educational output is curtailed at its height, an eventuall excess will surely occur.




motomed said:
source? anecdotally, I'm calling BS. I know a half dozen pharmacists who have recently graduated or will do so in the next few weeks. all of them have jobs lined up.
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That is ridiculous. Look at ANY post on the pharm forums and it is clear. Huge demand in 2005, then a crash of sorts in 2009. It is not good. Here is just one of many threads on it http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=639184

Notice how in this thread a few mentioned it as a possibility in 2005, while others shot it down, 4 years later, BAM.
 
cautiousvampire said:
The pre-allo forum is filled with overcritical pre-med idiots who jump to criticize. This expansion is unprededented and will change medicine as we know it, whether you like it or not. Will it provide better health care for the general public? Most likely. However, with the exception of those who have the scores to get into competitive specialities, it will change things considerably. And the post-baby boomer argument is entirely valid. Think of it as a bell curve. We are preparing for the top of the curve, at which point supply will meet demand, but unless educational output is curtailed at its height, an eventuall excess will surely occur.







That is ridiculous. Look at ANY post on the pharm forums and it is clear. Huge demand in 2005, then a crash of sorts in 2009. It is not good. Here is just one of many threads on it http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=639184

Notice how in this thread a few mentioned it as a possibility in 2005, while others shot it down, 4 years later, BAM.
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WHY DOES NOBODY LISTEN IN PRE-ALLO, NUMBER OF MED SCHOOL IS NOT CORRELATED WITH AMOUNT OF DOCTORS.

Number of residencies makes # of doctors NOT # of med schools.
 
I don't get it. Why increase the number of medical schools under the pretense of 'getting more doctors' when in fact the number of doctors will remain the same due to residency spots? Seems incredibly stupid to me. Maybe I am missing something?
 
bucks2010 said:
I rest my case.
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Seriously. Vampire, have you read any of the responses to your "concern"? Hint: It's entirely unfounded, uninformed, and stupid. The LAST thing that should be on your mind entering medicine is TOO MANY doctors. There will always be a significant need.

But you're not reading this, are you...
 
asli said:
I don't get it. Why increase the number of medical schools under the pretense of 'getting more doctors' when in fact the number of doctors will remain the same due to residency spots? Seems incredibly stupid to me. Maybe I am missing something?
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True. I imagine the natural progression would be to increase residency spots though.

bucks2010 said:
I rest my case.
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My original post didn't criticize. Don't be a jerk.

CityLights said:
Seriously. Vampire, have you read any of the responses to your "concern"? Hint: It's entirely unfounded, uninformed, and stupid. The LAST thing that should be on your mind entering medicine is TOO MANY doctors. There will always be a significant need.

But you're not reading this, are you...
Click to expand...

Its basic logic. No need to insult. It is not unfounded. It may not happen, but based on other similar fields it is the logical progression. I agree with other constructive comments that refer to the number of residency spots will be the main issue. However, I imagine with this many new schools opening that residency spots will increase at some point. Calling something unfounded and then hurling insults while provinding no logic for your reasoning just makes you look foolish. 🙂
 
cautiousvampire said:
True. I imagine the natural progression would be to increase residency spots though.
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That seems like the obvious progression. I don't know why people are acting as if all these new American MDs are going to graduate, realize there aren't enough residency spots, and play video games.

There will be an aggressive lobby by hospitals, new med schools, etc, for increased residency spots (which they have a case for), and it'll happen.
 
Kaushik said:
1) It doesn't matter how many new schools open up if there isn't a corresponding increase in residency slots. A residency is essentially required to practice medicine (independently) in the US.
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Yes, that is why I said there should be more residencies.

2) As far as I know (and I could be wrong), the AMA doesn't really play a role in accrediting new med schools. The LCME does that for MD schools.
Click to expand...
And the AMA sponsors the LCME.

3) Residency positions are paid for by Medicare.
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Yes, that is unfortunate. But it just takes a couple billion dollars to go a long way in expanding residencies.

4) Physicians cannot unionize/strike/whatever due to anti-trust laws.
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They can't, but the AMA has acted like a union by restricting the number of doctors that can enter the profession, and by restricting the role of midlevels. You should read Milton Friedman's opinion on the AMA.
 
searun said:
I think I took that class in 8th grade.
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Cool.

So that's how you got into Columbia. You were in their 2011 match, correct?

Columbia is a great medical school, congrats.
 
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Dr Love said:
That seems like the obvious progression. I don't know why people are acting as if all these new American MDs are going to graduate, realize there aren't enough residency spots, and play video games.

There will be an aggressive lobby by hospitals, new med schools, etc, for increased residency spots (which they have a case for), and it'll happen.
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Yea, I kinda doubt that Medicare is going to cough up enough money to significantly increase residency spots, considering the financial situation Medicare currently is in. So, who's going to pay for more spots? I'm not exactly seeing hospitals willing to shell out their own money to support more residents.
 
Kaushik said:
Yea, I kinda doubt that Medicare is going to cough up enough money to significantly increase residency spots, considering the financial situation Medicare currently is in. So, who's going to pay for more spots? I'm not exactly seeing hospitals willing to shell out their own money to support more residents.
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When has lack of money been a problem for the government? We are 12 trillion in debt, a few billion more won't be that much of a hassle.

In any case, if need be, hospitals will absolutely be willing to support more residents. These people are highly trained and work like slaves for 40k a year, they are a bargain.
 
cautiousvampire said:
True. I imagine the natural progression would be to increase residency spots though.

Its basic logic. No need to insult. It is not unfounded. It may not happen, but based on other similar fields it is the logical progression. I agree with other constructive comments that refer to the number of residency spots will be the main issue. However, I imagine with this many new schools opening that residency spots will increase at some point. Calling something unfounded and then hurling insults while provinding no logic for your reasoning just makes you look foolish. 🙂
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And what role do you think medical schools play in funding residency positions, exactly? If you think this progression will be so "natural" then justify why you think so.
 
Dr Love said:
When has lack of money been a problem for the government? We are 12 trillion in debt, a few billion more won't be that much of a hassle.

In any case, if need be, hospitals will absolutely be willing to support more residents. These people are highly trained and work like slaves for 40k a year, they are a bargain.
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Do you think they get "highly trained" for free? It costs money to fund a residency spot beyond simply the resident's salary. Such a bargain now? Not really. Any precedent for a hospital funding a residency position?
 
Dubaifan490 said:
They can't, but the AMA has acted like a union by restricting the number of doctors that can enter the profession, and by restricting the role of midlevels. You should read Milton Friedman's opinion on the AMA.
Click to expand...

In general, I think organizations like the AMA are harmful to the country. That said, now that I am accepted to medical school, I think we absolutely need to restrict the number of doctors and limit the role of other members of the medical profession. Shouldn't healthcare providers be the best and brightest? We are really looking after people's best interests in restricting the number of doctors, the observation that this increases physician salaries is irrelevant and pure coincidence.

The AMA is doing a good job.👍
 
gettheleadout said:
Do you think they get "highly trained" for free? It costs money to fund a residency spot beyond simply the resident's salary. Such a bargain now? Not really. Any precedent for a hospital funding a residency position?
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Yea, uh huh, sure. It costs SOOO much money to have people with doctoral degrees work at below minimum-wage levels.

To your second question, right now the number of residency slots is restricted by the government. The point was, that could change.
 
Dr Love said:
In general, I think organizations like the AMA are harmful to the country. That said, now that I am accepted to medical school, I think we absolutely need to restrict the number of doctors and limit the role of other members of the medical profession. Shouldn't healthcare providers be the best and brightest? We are really looking after people's best interests in restricting the number of doctors, the observation that this increases physician salaries is irrelevant and pure coincidence.

The AMA is doing a good job.👍
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I find a lot of things wrong with this post.

How are you going to judge who is the "best and brightest?" If you're going to go by the criteria medical school admissions uses, then you already have more qualified applicants than can be accepted as is, so more medical school spots, residency spots, and eventual doctors are justified. If you're going to judge some other way, how will you do it? Further, how can you be sure that these measures of being "best and brightest" actually equate to quality care? How can you be so sure that if we don't keep physicians an elite class, public health will decline?
 
Dr Love said:
Yea, uh huh, sure. It costs SOOO much money to have people with doctoral degrees work at below minimum-wage levels.

To your second question, right now the number of residency slots is restricted by the government. The point was, that could change.
Click to expand...

Actually, it does. Read this thread to find out why.
 
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