Why all the new D-schools, Why so much debt and loans?

dort-ort · Jul 6, 2011

Thought this would be an interesting read, answers all the questions.

Excerpt from recent Dentaltown post:

I am a recent graduate, and I was asked to work as faculty when I graduated...so I said yes to one day a week. I work in private practice 4 days a week as well.

My student loans including undergrad and DS now sit in the $350,000 range including interest. The payments are around $3,000 a month.

I have been given a unique look 'behind the curtain'. As students we were strongly encouraged to 'give back' to the community. Several professors made us feel like we should be giving away our treatments - that charging was almost unethical.

I see now on the other side as faculty, there are people who run the show who see this is a business rather than a school, plain and simple. I understand that. Their mission isn't to create a graduate who can survive/pay back their loans/etc. Their mission is to make as much money as they can for the university.

So they train the students to be 'ethical' which is code for 'feel guilty about charging and give it away', while at the same time the university is trying to figure out how it can squeeze in 25% more students into the next class to raise money to build a new school building. Oh and don't forget to put some money in the envelope when the Alumni rep calls.

It's no conspiracy. It's right out there in the open. We think that schools are there to train dentists, but dentists are just their product and a means to an end. That end is to make a lot of money. We will pay because we hope in turn to do the same.

txlonghorn · Jul 6, 2011

The education system is so messed up that it is not even funny. The higher learning institutions have moved away from focusing on teaching and are now focused on building better gyms, buildings, and research labs so that they can attract more students to their schools. I would really recommend checking out the PBS documentary called Declining by Degrees: Higher Ed at Risk. Makes me want to punch someone in the face - and I am not a violent person.

Pennywisdom · Jul 6, 2011

txlonghorn said:
and i am not a violent person.

Whoah, a big lie.

txlonghorn · Jul 6, 2011

Pennywisdom said:
Whoah, a big lie.

Lol. How have you been bud?

whodat4life · Jul 6, 2011

Welcome to socialized healthcare. :soexcited:

GreatDDS · Jul 6, 2011

whodat4life said:
Welcome to socialized healthcare.

I don't know why you called it "socialized" healthcare. It sounds alot like "capitalist" healthcare to me. Stop blaming on Obama for everything that goes wrong in this world!!!

txlonghorn · Jul 6, 2011

GreatDDS said:
I don't know why you called it "socialized" healthcare. It sounds alot like "capitalist" healthcare to me. Stop blaming on Obama for everything that goes wrong in this world!!!

Everything that is wrong with this country is due to Obama. If it get a headache, it is because of him.

lmaozedong1 · Jul 6, 2011

GreatDDS said:
I don't know why you called it "socialized" healthcare. It sounds alot like "capitalist" healthcare to me. Stop blaming on Obama for everything that goes wrong in this world!!!

But, you're the one who just brought up Obama. Don't play the "picked on Liberal" card b/c that gets SO annoying very fast.

Thanks.

txlonghorn · Jul 6, 2011

lmaozedong1 said:
But, you're the one who just brought up Obama. Don't play the "picked on Liberal" card b/c that gets SO annoying very fast.

Thanks.

Lol Chairman Mao

GreatDDS · Jul 6, 2011

txlonghorn said:
Lol Chairman Mao

Well, if you can't extinguish the difference btwn the socialized and capitalist healthcare, then go on with having more headache.

It is not meant to blame the red or the blue, but it is to say that the healthcare system has nothing to do with how the schools in our country operate.

dl9006 · Jul 6, 2011

whodat4life said:
Welcome to socialized healthcare.

👎

obama raised tuition prices?

lol it's amazing how far some people reach just to blame the guy for almost everything.

txlonghorn · Jul 6, 2011

dl9006 said:
👎

obama raised tuition prices?

lol it's amazing how far some people reach just to blame the guy for almost everything.

Obama does everything wrong...he couldn't even stop it from raining yesterday.

peanutb123 · Jul 6, 2011

Well you can argue that schools have to run like busniess. No one is going to work for free. No one will work for less money either. School has to raise funding for years so that it can feel safe for its students. No one is going to provide treatments for less. No dentist that i knwo would be even mariginally intrested in helping poor unless if they can afford to pay in cash. If you look in many dental office it states that payments must be received immediatly upon services.

People argue why so many new school etc...

Well if there aer less dentists this will lead a clear road for Advaced Rigistered dental hyginists, who will one day try to cut into our business. Basically the way i look at it is. I rather see couple schools open hear and their instead of many schools poping up to create ARDH.

I have seen couple examples of recent grad everyone that i have seen is making will above 120k starting salary. These threads that pop up hear and their jsut put fear and put discouragement into pre-dents.

I dont know much about politics but i know this: obama cut the middle man from disbusing govt. loans so thats a huge + for us.

GreatDDS · Jul 6, 2011

txlonghorn said:
Obama does everything wrong...he couldn't even stop it from raining yesterday.

That's because the longhorn was not even in the top ten ranking last year, so no need for the rain to stop.

Relax, this forum is for intellectual discussion!!! No need for blind and opinionated argument.

lmaozedong1 · Jul 6, 2011

txlonghorn said:
Lol Chairman Mao

...

whodat4life · Jul 6, 2011

GreatDDS said:
I don't know why you called it "socialized" healthcare. It sounds alot like "capitalist" healthcare to me. Stop blaming on Obama for everything that goes wrong in this world!!!

Ahhh, so overwhelming students with a tremendous amount of debt and forcing them to serve in some sort of public health field versus getting out and going into private practice isn't trying to force socialism down our throats? If you would actually look instead of yapping off at the mouth...you would see that the number of dentists graduating since 2009 going into public health dentistry has drastically increased. I read it the other day from a reputable source, and if I can track it down...I will post it here. But what's the point? Obviously, you are about to turn this into a political argument instead of using your head. If you actually look at it, the federal government is the one causing financial aid offices in schools to encourage students to take out the max amount of loans and raising prices. The federal government, in other words, is regulating how much schools charge. The point is this...they want to overwhelm students with debt to basically give them no other option than spend X amount of years doing public health service (of some sort) because they simply cannot afford the huge mountain of debt. While I have no problem with providing care to low-income families (I'm from one myself)...FORCING someone into it is socialism, or whatever pretty word you can come up with to call it. I'm not going to argue with you though. You believe what you want. I will not even take the time to address your ignorant comment about President Obama.

GreatDDS · Jul 6, 2011

Nobody is forcing us to join any government program just for the sake of paying back your loans. It's up to us to determine how we are going to live frugally after D-school so that we can meet our loan obligation.

whodat4life · Jul 6, 2011

GreatDDS said:
Nobody is forcing us to join any government program just for the sake of paying back your loans. It's up to us to determine how we are going to live frugally after D-school so that we can meet our loan obligation.

I doubt that my first year in D school starting in August will skew my belief, but like you said, it's about one's perception of the world.

You are 100% correct, no one is forcing anyone into it. But, what's the quickest way(s) to pay off your student debt? Either the military or working in public health receiving loan forgiveness/scholarships. All I'm trying to say is this...it used to be quite feasible for a new, young grad to get out of school and go directly into practice (and it was a smart move), now it's almost impossible. 400k in student debt and another 250-400k opening a practice (forgive me if my numbers on opening a practice are off, I haven't done it quite yet)...and hiring employees, paying mortgage, etc...you're 1 million bucks in debt coming out of school. It's way more unrealistic to go straight into private practice, making more of a lifetime earning potential (capitalism)...yet more attractive to go into public health and that's what my argument was. BUT, I actually agree with you on schools making money through capitalism, they happen to be a co-beneficiary in the federal government's scheme. The student gets screwed on all ends.

I was not trying to start a political argument with my words, rather an intellectual conversation.

newyorkblork · Jul 6, 2011

whodat4life said:
You are 100% correct, no one is forcing anyone into it. But, what's the quickest way(s) to pay off your student debt? Either the military or working in public health receiving loan forgiveness/scholarships. All I'm trying to say is this...it used to be quite feasible for a new, young grad to get out of school and go directly into practice (and it was a smart move), now it's almost impossible. 400k in student debt and another 250-400k opening a practice (forgive me if my numbers on opening a practice are off, I haven't done it quite yet)...and hiring employees, paying mortgage, etc...you're 1 million bucks in debt coming out of school. It's way more unrealistic to go straight into private practice, making more of a lifetime earning potential (capitalism)...yet more attractive to go into public health and that's what my argument was. BUT, I actually agree with you on schools making money through capitalism, they happen to be a co-beneficiary in the federal government's scheme. The student gets screwed on all ends.

I was not trying to start a political argument with my words, rather an intellectual conversation.

Someone on Dentaltown made the interesting point that these kinds of federal loans are self-sustaining and self-inflating; why would schools be inspired to lower tuition when they know that Uncle Sam is willing to foot more of the bill in the present, because Uncle Sam in turn knows that students are willing to foot more of the bill in the future, and more Military and Public Service dentists (who aren't actually making extra money, just getting their artificially inflated debt relieved in a well-marketed fashion) to boot?

Dental schools and federal loans will continue to gouge students as long as they can keep selling the dream of $140,000 out of school and $300,000 in a couple years of easy work.

And as long as the general public continues to see with the (media-fueled) light of "Dentists and doctors are greedy" and "Being my doctor is a privilege", doctors and dentists will continue to get sold until becoming a healthcare professional is less profitable than dropping out of college to become a plumber until you hit the ~8 year post-college mark.

.... wait....

slm266 · Jul 6, 2011

A Loma Linda grad who got a peek behind the curtain told of the loopholes LLU finds to raise annual tuition beyond the (7-8%) maximum. How they push humanitarian mission trips where they charge the foreign patients more than patients in the dental clinic. Tithing money collected from missionary conversion in these trips supports the church substancially. While a resident he needed to get a RCT done and the school wouldn't give him any student discount.
As a D4 he was #1 in the clinic and had far surpassed the quota of procedures. For the last few months he started assisting in the specialty program he was applying to and apparently got in big trouble for decreasing his output.
Just a few of his complaints that I remember

whodat4life · Jul 6, 2011

slm266 said:
A Loma Linda grad who got a peek behind the curtain told of the loopholes LLU finds to raise annual tuition beyond the (7-8%) maximum. How they push humanitarian mission trips where they charge the foreign patients more than patients in the dental clinic. Tithing money collected from missionary conversion in these trips supports the church substancially. While a resident he needed to get a RCT done and the school wouldn't give him any student discount.
As a D4 he was #1 in the clinic and had far surpassed the quota of procedures. For the last few months he started assisting in the specialty program he was applying to and apparently got in big trouble for decreasing his output.
Just a few of his complaints that I remember

That's crazy...the students/faculty all act so happy there, so it's sort of weird to hear a lot of bad stuff coming from the school. Other than being an older school, I've never heard any complaints from students I've met that go there, they all love it. Oh well, I guess you can't make everyone happy, but if that's true they should be ashamed of themselves for doing that on missionary trips and not helping him with his RCT.

persenmi · Jul 7, 2011

The college debt bomb is just like the subprime home mortgage debt bomb. ITS A BUBBLE. How hard is it to get a fat loan for school? They will give those to anybody! Sound familiar? Student debt has recently passed credit card debt in America and the bubble will continue to inflate and the lenders will continue to party until a day of reckoning occurs in the future. My guess is, just like the mortgage crisis, the US taxpayer will be on the hook to bail out the lenders because they will be to big to fail or something extremely stupid like that.

Just my $0.02.

yappy · Jul 7, 2011

The only difference is that students will not be able to bankrupt out of their debt.

Part of the problem too is that the cost of college is being shifted from the tax payer to the college student. At my state school the costs of educating a student has not drastically increased but the cost to the student has due to state tax cuts in higher education.

The babyboomers got theirs in terms of education and now they're going into retirement to collect their entitlements... I wonder who is going to pay for that?👎

persenmi said:
The college debt bomb is just like the subprime home mortgage debt bomb. ITS A BUBBLE. How hard is it to get a fat loan for school? They will give those to anybody! Sound familiar? Student debt has recently passed credit card debt in America and the bubble will continue to inflate and the lenders will continue to party until a day of reckoning occurs in the future. My guess is, just like the mortgage crisis, the US taxpayer will be on the hook to bail out the lenders because they will be to big to fail or something extremely stupid like that.

Just my $0.02.

7 Iron · Jul 7, 2011

persenmi said:
The college debt bomb is just like the subprime home mortgage debt bomb. ITS A BUBBLE. How hard is it to get a fat loan for school? They will give those to anybody! Sound familiar? Student debt has recently passed credit card debt in America and the bubble will continue to inflate and the lenders will continue to party until a day of reckoning occurs in the future. My guess is, just like the mortgage crisis, the US taxpayer will be on the hook to bail out the lenders because they will be to big to fail or something extremely stupid like that.

Just my $0.02.

I agree 100%. I think it's going to burst in a few years...maybe within 5 years.

Quattro DMD · Jul 7, 2011

persenmi said:
The college debt bomb is just like the subprime home mortgage debt bomb. ITS A BUBBLE. How hard is it to get a fat loan for school? They will give those to anybody! Sound familiar? Student debt has recently passed credit card debt in America and the bubble will continue to inflate and the lenders will continue to party until a day of reckoning occurs in the future. My guess is, just like the mortgage crisis, the US taxpayer will be on the hook to bail out the lenders because they will be to big to fail or something extremely stupid like that.

Just my $0.02.

Doesn't the government service all the student loans now? So the government would need to bail themselves out when the bubble bursts?

I agree though, the student loan situation is getting out of control. Tuition is getting out of control. My school has raised tuition about 18K/year in the last 8 years. The class size has also increased by 20 students in that time. I don't understand why the number keeps going up.

yappy · Jul 7, 2011

Read my last post. We're getting screwed by the previous generation. We must respond by cutting their SS & medicare.

Quattro DMD said:
Doesn't the government service all the student loans now? So the government would need to bail themselves out when the bubble bursts?

I agree though, the student loan situation is getting out of control. Tuition is getting out of control. My school has raised tuition about 18K/year in the last 8 years. The class size has also increased by 20 students in that time. I don't understand why the number keeps going up.

Cofo · Jul 7, 2011

whodat4life said:
Welcome to socialized healthcare.

You have no clue what you are talking about. This isn't even about healthcare. We are talking about how publicly and privately owned dental schools are more concerned about making money rather than giving their students affordable tuition.

By evoking students to become $300,000-$400,000 in debt by graduation, we become slaves to banks until we pay off our loan.
Capitalism's platform is exploitation and expediency (see above). If education was 100% socialized (its only somewhat already socialized due to tantalizing grants LOL), it would be cheaper, and dentists wouldn't be in debt up to their eyeballs. Then we could manage to charge patients affordable healthcare...and as dentists, we wouldn't have to worry so much about PRODUCE PRODUCE PRODUCE AS QUICKLY AS QUICKLY AS QUICKLY. The treatment we dentists/future dentists give would be more qualitative, as well. But...this of course is all products of socialism...and you, for some reason, wouldn't be interested in that. Time to open your mind, and turn off your television, and stop listening to your more capitalist friends/family.

my bad...i didn't read your other posts...you seem to get it. my apologies!

Cofo · Jul 7, 2011

yappy said:
Read my last post. We're getting screwed by the previous generation. We must respond by cutting their SS & medicare.

👍👍👍

dl9006 · Jul 7, 2011

Quattro DMD said:
Doesn't the government service all the student loans now? So the government would need to bail themselves out when the bubble bursts?

I agree though, the student loan situation is getting out of control. Tuition is getting out of control. My school has raised tuition about 18K/year in the last 8 years. The class size has also increased by 20 students in that time. I don't understand why the number keeps going up.

they like to use bs excuses like how they added some new faculty members that are the "best" in their field

Aceofspades · Jul 7, 2011

peanutb123 said:
People argue why so many new school etc...

Well if there aer less dentists this will lead a clear road for Advaced Rigistered dental hyginists, who will one day try to cut into our business. Basically the way i look at it is. I rather see couple schools open hear and their instead of many schools poping up to create ARDH.

Hahahaha!! Both will happen. New schools are opening up and people are pushing for midlevels to start drilling and filling to "help out the poor medicaid people." Meanwhile weak or no measures will be taken to make sure the midlevels practice on medicaid patients and they will further saturate metropolitan areas. Perhaps Wal-mart can reduce their overhead by hiring midlevels instead of dentists and paying them less? Once the heavy hitting special interests get involved you won't be able to spit without hitting a dentist.

SoulPower · Jul 7, 2011

Aceofspades said:
Hahahaha!! Both will happen. New schools are opening up and people are pushing for midlevels to start drilling and filling to "help out the poor medicaid people." Meanwhile weak or no measures will be taken to make sure the midlevels practice on medicaid patients and they will further saturate metropolitan areas. Perhaps Wal-mart can reduce their overhead by hiring midlevels instead of dentists and paying them less? Once the heavy hitting special interests get involved you won't be able to spit without hitting a dentist.

Well that would just suck

rook56 · Jul 7, 2011

The two sectors with the most gov't involvement are healthcare and education. It is no coincident that these are the two areas where costs are spiraling out of control.

Any time you take the consumer out of the equation, costs are going to skyrocket. Schools keep raising their prices because they have no reason not to. As long as the Federal government keeps raising the amount of money they are willing to throw at students, costs will go up. It is the same with healthcare. As long as the patient isn't paying, there is no incentive for the patient or the doctor to contain costs. Years ago, schools were much cheaper because students had to fund their own education. Now, we watch as our schools continually raise our tuition while horribly mismanaging the money. If our education system was truly "capitalist," schools would be forced to find ways of managing their revenue and lowering costs.

The current higher education system is not capitalism or socialism, but a hybrid. Our schools get to throw money government money around without repercussion, and the student is eventually stuck with the bill. As others have eluded, this has created a huge debt bubble, not unlike the housing bubble. Eventually, the debt burden will become so large that many professionals will be forced to default, forcing a crisis. Then, our government will find a way to blame capitalism for their mistakes, and encourage more government control of our education. This will lead to more bureaucracy, more inefficiency, and less incentive for schools to manage their costs.

Voltron2010 · Jul 7, 2011

its not just dental schools its across the board. Since for profit schools have become the main, they realize that they can milk the education system by having students take out larger loans. In return they get an easy degree. Look at the for profit dental schools if an instructor is tough they are told to lighten up bc these kids are paying a lot of money.. I dont mean tough as an a hole but tough like being making you you have 6 degree taper on a prep and not 39 degree taper... the student loan crisis will be the next big issue unfortunately for many they cant even get rid of it in bankruptcy court, the way it is it is better to owe the irs than to owe student loan bc irs has a statue of limiations, student loans does not. When you hear we need to spend more on educations, it is usually code for increase the amount thats loan out to students, and the results are that prices goes up, book prices goes up, tuition goes up so all that "new" borrowed money disapears and nothing really goes into education. but you as the borower are leaving with super debt. When I started ordering review boos from all over the planet to compare and see the difference I was shocked when I cam across a review book selling in the USA for $200 plus, and I found the same book in India for $10. I order both and wa shocked that the indian book had a disclaimer in the front not to be sold in the USA. same book, no copyright violation. But they know that they can crack up prices bc you can easily borrow money fo education... Like they say you cant put a price on education.... lol so they keep hicking the price.

longhornpride · Jul 7, 2011

Screw the education system and the money making ploy it's turned into.

Now they're trying to take away the little subsidized loans us grad students have for budget cuts.

There is no shortage of dentists. These new schools are opening because there is a huge supply of students that are willing to pay their asses off in hopes of making that 130k their first year out. Here's the truth... the baby boomers aren't retiring anytime soon because none of them saved up **** for retirement. Cities and even small towns are absolutely saturated. Schools are finding ways of increasing class sizes and there are more and more graduating dentists every year. This leads to an over supply of new grads looking for jobs and more and more are willing to take lesser pay just to get a job to help pay off the mountain of debt they accumulated in hopes of a false dream.

sweetdaises2000 · Jul 7, 2011

longhornpride said:
Screw the education system and the money making ploy it's turned into.

Now they're trying to take away the little subsidized loans us grad students have for budget cuts.

There is no shortage of dentists. These new schools are opening because there is a huge supply of students that are willing to pay their asses off in hopes of making that 130k their first year out. Here's the truth... the baby boomers aren't retiring anytime soon because none of them saved up **** for retirement. Cities and even small towns are absolutely saturated. Schools are finding ways of increasing class sizes and there are more and more graduating dentists every year. This leads to an over supply of new grads looking for jobs and more and more are willing to take lesser pay just to get a job to help pay off the mountain of debt they accumulated in hopes of a false dream.

This is just depressing...I see you are class of 2014 and just started dental school. If you truly believe this is the state of the profession, why continue? I'm just wondering personally...I'm worring about the sub 100k debt I'm about to take on, but I guess I do buy into this "false dream". I constantly here about how New York, Cali and maybe Arizona, are saturated, but those are not the only great places to reside and practice in this country. Do you really believe there will be an oversupply in the coming years?
I also disagree with the rising costs, and unlike most others, there is a limit to how much I would pay/debt I would procure to go to dental school, I simply don't believe in 30 yr repayment plans...

Quattro DMD · Jul 7, 2011

Voltron2010 said:
its not just dental schools its across the board. Since for profit schools have become the main, they realize that they can milk the education system by having students take out larger loans. In return they get an easy degree. Look at the for profit dental schools if an instructor is tough they are told to lighten up bc these kids are paying a lot of money.. I dont mean tough as an a hole but tough like being making you you have 6 degree taper on a prep and not 39 degree taper... the student loan crisis will be the next big issue unfortunately for many they cant even get rid of it in bankruptcy court, the way it is it is better to owe the irs than to owe student loan bc irs has a statue of limiations, student loans does not. When you hear we need to spend more on educations, it is usually code for increase the amount thats loan out to students, and the results are that prices goes up, book prices goes up, tuition goes up so all that "new" borrowed money disapears and nothing really goes into education. but you as the borower are leaving with super debt. When I started ordering review boos from all over the planet to compare and see the difference I was shocked when I cam across a review book selling in the USA for $200 plus, and I found the same book in India for $10. I order both and wa shocked that the indian book had a disclaimer in the front not to be sold in the USA. same book, no copyright violation. But they know that they can crack up prices bc you can easily borrow money fo education... Like they say you cant put a price on education.... lol so they keep hicking the price.

I wasn't aware that there were for profit dental schools. My understanding was that the expensive private dental schools were non-profit, investing any additional money earned back into the school. When I think of for profit universities, I think of University of Phoenix. Correct me if I am wrong.

longhornpride · Jul 7, 2011

sweetdaises2000 said:
This is just depressing...I see you are class of 2014 and just started dental school. If you truly believe this is the state of the profession, why continue? I'm just wondering personally...I'm worring about the sub 100k debt I'm about to take on, but I guess I do buy into this "false dream". I constantly here about how New York, Cali and maybe Arizona, are saturated, but those are not the only great places to reside and practice in this country. Do you really believe there will be an oversupply in the coming years?
I also disagree with the rising costs, and unlike most others, there is a limit to how much I would pay/debt I would procure to go to dental school, I simply don't believe in 30 yr repayment plans...

why continue? what am I supposed to do with the 100k debt i've accumulated if I drop out. As far as I know, bio degrees don't make squat.

you're lucky because you're going to a Texas school where they don't screw you out the ass for a degree. I'm talking on behalf of students that will leave dental school with 300k+ in loans. And it's not just Arizona, Cali and NY that are saturated. Good luck finding a good location in Austin, Dallas, San Antonio, Waco, Houston, etc. Hell even a town 100,000 person town like Beaumont is saturated to hell with dentists. Yes there is a shortage in some places... but do you really want to move to Brownsville or El Paso?

Dentistry is still a great profession... don't get me wrong. But the dream they sell you on when those dean's visit your pre-dental club is complete BS. The dentist I work for right now started of with a 60k salary because she couldn't find a better paying job in Austin. She now owns her own practice and has 10+ other dentists just in her zipcode.

And as soon as you find a good location... you'll see 3 other dentists open shop right next door to you as soon as they hear how well you're doing. This wouldn't be an issue if the baby boomer dentists would retire like they should. However because of better ergonomics and lack of retirement saving... none of them are retiring.

Quattro DMD · Jul 7, 2011

sweetdaises2000 said:
This is just depressing...I see you are class of 2014 and just started dental school. If you truly believe this is the state of the profession, why continue? I'm just wondering personally...I'm worring about the sub 100k debt I'm about to take on, but I guess I do buy into this "false dream". I constantly here about how New York, Cali and maybe Arizona, are saturated, but those are not the only great places to reside and practice in this country. Do you really believe there will be an oversupply in the coming years?
I also disagree with the rising costs, and unlike most others, there is a limit to how much I would pay/debt I would procure to go to dental school, I simply don't believe in 30 yr repayment plans...

According to your signature you're going to a Texas dental school. Texas dental schools are great schools in terms of quality, and if you're a state resident, like the majority of the students, then it's also dirt cheap. The poster you're referring to goes to BU, which is private, like my school, and more than double what you're paying. Dentistry is a great field, but when some of us graduate with 360K plus interest (about 400K by graduation), then it kinda keeps us up at night.

sweetdaises2000 · Jul 7, 2011

longhornpride said:
why continue? what am I supposed to do with the 100k debt i've accumulated if I drop out. As far as I know, bio degrees don't make squat.

you're lucky because you're going to a Texas school where they don't screw you out the ass for a degree. I'm talking on behalf of students that will leave dental school with 300k+ in loans. And it's not just Arizona, Cali and NY that are saturated. Good luck finding a good location in Austin, Dallas, San Antonio, Waco, Houston, etc. Hell even a town 100,000 person town like Beaumont is saturated to hell with dentists. Yes there is a shortage in some places... but do you really want to move to Brownsville or El Paso?

Dentistry is still a great profession... don't get me wrong. But the dream they sell you on when those dean's visit your pre-dental club is complete BS. The dentist I work for right now started of with a 60k salary because she couldn't find a better paying job in Austin. She now owns her own practice and has 10+ other dentists just in her zipcode.

And as soon as you find a good location... you'll see 3 other dentists open shop right next door to you as soon as they hear how well you're doing. This wouldn't be an issue if the baby boomer dentists would retire like they should. However because of better ergonomics and lack of retirement saving... none of them are retiring.

Wow, this is scary. I definetely had plans of staying in Texas, and thought it was the better paying of most states. I truly love this profession, but I can't imagine servicing 100k on 60k, much less servicing 300k. So what about all the incoming students, and students from your class that will be graduating in the future? What are your ideas on where they will go in terms of work? I always feel like there is such a disconnect between eager pre-dents who just want to get in by all means, and the dental student/practicing dentists forum. I never know whether I'm getting a reality check, optimism or pessimism...All the dentists I know personally are doing just fine...

longhornpride · Jul 7, 2011

excuse all my spelling errors... I tend to type fast when my blood pressure rises thinking about my debt.

and one thing you're seeing across the board is that dentists are having a hard time getting patients to accept treatment plans. With the way the economy is... people tend to hold off on dental care for as long as possible and only get treatment for what's hurting. Just last week at the office I work at... one father refused treatment on his 16 year old daughter that had 10+ cavities in her mouth.

There are definitely practices that are banking, but you need to realize the struggles most dentists have to deal with. Most people that are making the big bucks have been established for a while and entered the market when it wasn't as saturated.

sweetdaises2000 · Jul 7, 2011

Quattro DMD said:
According to your signature you're going to a Texas dental school. Texas dental schools are great schools in terms of quality, and if you're a state resident, like the majority of the students, then it's also dirt cheap. The poster you're referring to goes to BU, which is private, like my school, and more than double what you're paying. Dentistry is a great field, but when some of us graduate with 360K plus interest (about 400K by graduation), then it kinda keeps us up at night.

Quattro, I hear ya on the debt burden of students attending private schools. But assuming I become a general dentist and don't specialize-I'm not set on any particular field yet, these students with huge loans are going to be my colleagues, or "competitors" in a sense. Will these students be willing to work for any wage, therefore driving the wages down? I just feel like when a significant amount of students graduating are hurt, the whole profession is hurt-after all, we will all be looking for jobs in 4 years or so...

sweetdaises2000 · Jul 7, 2011

Longhorn pride, I have a few spelling errors myself. So with everything you are seeing, since you have worked/been working in the dental field, what would you advice future applicants, students? Look elsewhere? I totally understand how daunting these loans can be in light of the job search-have you spoken to recent dental grads, and how they are faring? Even if one wanted to consider other professions, what else is there ya know? Or are we to tough it out, keep marching out, and hope the hard work and investment pays off?

longhornpride said:
excuse all my spelling errors... I tend to type fast when my blood pressure rises thinking about my debt.

and one thing you're seeing across the board is that dentists are having a hard time getting patients to accept treatment plans. With the way the economy is... people tend to hold off on dental care for as long as possible and only get treatment for what's hurting. Just last week at the office I work at... one father refused treatment on his 16 year old daughter that had 10+ cavities in her mouth.

There are definitely practices that are banking, but you need to realize the struggles most dentists have to deal with. Most people that are making the big bucks have been established for a while and entered the market when it wasn't as saturated.

longhornpride · Jul 7, 2011

sweetdaises2000 said:
Wow, this is scary. I definetely had plans of staying in Texas, and thought it was the better paying of most states. I truly love this profession, but I can't imagine servicing 100k on 60k, much less servicing 300k. So what about all the incoming students, and students from your class that will be graduating in the future? What are your ideas on where they will go in terms of work? I always feel like there is such a disconnect between eager pre-dents who just want to get in by all means, and the dental student/practicing dentists forum. I never know whether I'm getting a reality check, optimism or pessimism...All the dentists I know personally are doing just fine...

I don't want to sound too pessimistic. There are definitely opportunities out there. If you have family in the field... you're pretty much set. Or if you want to move to areas where there is desperate need like Maine... you'll be fine.

The problem I'm seeing is that most pre-dents think they're going to make 120-150k coming out. This is definitely possible, but from the 3rd and 4th years I've talked to... it's very rare. Another issue is getting screwed when you get a job. There are times when the guy that hires you will have you do all the endo and ****ty work while he takes the easier cases. Another problem is dentists who sell their practice only to open shop a few miles away and then steal back the patients you bought from him. These are all real life issues.

Most dentists that you know are probably well established. They entered the market when it wasn't saturated and have a good flow of patients. What new grads are dealing with is different. Older dentists aren't retiring, commercial offices (Aspen, Ocean, Smile Center, etc) are a thorn in the side, and competition is decreasing salaries. Why is a dentist going to hire an associate right now when his practice is barely paying the bills. Fewer job openings + an increase in new grads = lesser paying jobs. Read a few ADA articles. I believe the one from May or June has a great article that gives statistics that show the lowered production or current practice owners because of the economy.

Then you have places like Walmart that are looking to enter the field. You have mid-level providers who get 2 years of schooling. Thank God most states won't allow them to practice.

If pre-dents learn about these issues early, they won't be as pissed off when they get to dental school haha.

longhornpride · Jul 7, 2011

sweetdaises2000 said:
Longhorn pride, I have a few spelling errors myself. So with everything you are seeing, since you have worked/been working in the dental field, what would you advice future applicants, students? Look elsewhere? I totally understand how daunting these loans can be in light of the job search-have you spoken to recent dental grads, and how they are faring? Even if one wanted to consider other professions, what else is there ya know? Or are we to tough it out, keep marching out, and hope the hard work and investment pays off?

I have no clue. Maybe current dentists can shed some light on solutions for the problems they face at their practices.

As a student, I'd like schools to cut back on acceptance rates and lower tuition (I'm looking at you private schools). Better loan forgiveness programs... there's a big problem right now with people signing contracts for them. Their funding get's cut and the program disappears. The dentists under contract will only partially get their loans forgiven. This is very common and I'd say 75% of dentists have warned me about this happening if I were to look into such a program.

sweetdaises2000 · Jul 7, 2011

longhornpride said:
I don't want to sound too pessimistic. There are definitely opportunities out there. If you have family in the field... you're pretty much set. Or if you want to move to areas where there is desperate need like Maine... you'll be fine.

The problem I'm seeing is that most pre-dents think they're going to make 120-150k coming out. This is definitely possible, but from the 3rd and 4th years I've talked to... it's very rare. Another issue is getting screwed when you get a job. There are times when the guy that hires you will have you do all the endo and ****ty work while he takes the easier cases. Another problem is dentists who sell their practice only to open shop a few miles away and then steal back the patients you bought from him. These are all real life issues.

Most dentists that you know are probably well established. They entered the market when it wasn't saturated and have a good flow of patients. What new grads are dealing with is different. Older dentists aren't retiring, commercial offices (Aspen, Ocean, Smile Center, etc) are a thorn in the side, and competition is decreasing salaries. Why is a dentist going to hire an associate right now when his practice is barely paying the bills. Fewer job openings + an increase in new grads = lesser paying jobs. Read a few ADA articles. I believe the one from May or June has a great article that gives statistics that show the lowered production or current practice owners because of the economy.

Then you have places like Walmart that are looking to enter the field. You have mid-level providers who get 2 years of schooling. Thank God most states won't allow them to practice.

If pre-dents learn about these issues early, they won't be as pissed off when they get to dental school haha.

Lol, yes I am learning about them now...I understand that in a private practice setting, if the head dentist is seeing a decrease in profit, he/she may not want to hire an associate. But what about dental mills?I personally know a couple of dental grads who chose to bite the bullet and just work for Aspen for a year or 2 to pay down their debt. Do you think that will be a common option for most new grads?
Also, I understand that one may have to move away from the big cities, I'm prepared for that, and currently, I think that seems to be holding true for every health care profession-not everyone can work in the middle of Houston or Dallas....If a student is willing to move, will he/she be fine?
If you don't mind, how do you plan to tackle these issues when you graduate?

longhornpride · Jul 7, 2011

sweetdaises2000 said:
Lol, yes I am learning about them now...I understand that in a private practice setting, if the head dentist is seeing a decrease in profit, he/she may not want to hire an associate. But what about dental mills?I personally know a couple of dental grads who chose to bite the bullet and just work for Aspen for a year or 2 to pay down their debt. Do you think that will be a common option for most new grads?
Also, I understand that one may have to move away from the big cities, I'm prepared for that, and currently, I think that seems to be holding true for every health care profession-not everyone can work in the middle of Houston or Dallas....If a student is willing to move, will he/she be fine?
If you don't mind, how do you plan to tackle these issues when you graduate?

oh yeah... plenty of new grads will work for those mills. but there is a whole list of issues at those places. You can make good money but there is a reason dentists at those places try to get out as fast as they can? It's because they are mills. Their goal is to get in as many patients as possible regardless of the quality of work. Office managers (most of whom have a GED or associates degree) are telling you how to do your job. They'll put in unnecessary treatment plans just to make money. If you tell them such and such isn't needed... they'll tell you to shut up and do what they tell you to do. The assistants have no respect for you because you aren't their boss. These places are great starter jobs because you can increase your speed and make money to pay off your debt. But I'd bet that there are far more people that hated their experience there than ones that enjoyed it.

Don't rule out major cities or suburbs surrounding them. There are always good opportunities. However, the general perception is that more money can be made in rural areas if you're opening up a practice. My plan is to contact every dentist I've networked with and ask for guidance and advice. Luckily I have a few cousins that are dentists... so I'm hoping they can point me in the right direction or put in a good word for me with their colleagues. This isn't an earth shattering plan, but it's always good to have people vouch for you. I'm also hoping to get into a good residency program because you have more leverage when looking for jobs. Most dentists looking for associates will rarely hire a new grad. They want dentists with a few years of experience or dentists that have completed a residency. I mean it makes sense... would you hire a new grad? or someone who is faster, can offer more services b/c of CE courses, and is able to take on more complicated cases which bring in more money.

Any 4th years want to share their plan? I'm still learning haha

jay47 · Jul 7, 2011

longhornpride said:
why continue? what am I supposed to do with the 100k debt i've accumulated if I drop out. As far as I know, bio degrees don't make squat.

you're lucky because you're going to a Texas school where they don't screw you out the ass for a degree. I'm talking on behalf of students that will leave dental school with 300k+ in loans. And it's not just Arizona, Cali and NY that are saturated. Good luck finding a good location in Austin, Dallas, San Antonio, Waco, Houston, etc. Hell even a town 100,000 person town like Beaumont is saturated to hell with dentists. Yes there is a shortage in some places... but do you really want to move to Brownsville or El Paso?

Dentistry is still a great profession... don't get me wrong. But the dream they sell you on when those dean's visit your pre-dental club is complete BS. The dentist I work for right now started of with a 60k salary because she couldn't find a better paying job in Austin. She now owns her own practice and has 10+ other dentists just in her zipcode.

And as soon as you find a good location... you'll see 3 other dentists open shop right next door to you as soon as they hear how well you're doing. This wouldn't be an issue if the baby boomer dentists would retire like they should. However because of better ergonomics and lack of retirement saving... none of them are retiring.

I really do feel lucky to be in TX. I don't think that I would ever take on more than 150K for my education. I just don't know why the hell so many schools are so expensive. They aren't providing an education that is twice as good. I know that some schools have pros and some have cons, but my gosh, 250K, 300K, 350K, 400K, 450K FOR 4 YEARS OF EDUCATION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You may not even make that much money your FIRST 4 YEARS OUT!!!!! When people think of 500K, they don't think of education, they think of winning the lottery!

Someone else mentioned the college loan bubble; we all better get ready, because it IS going to burst, and yes, the government does service all student loans now. Also like someone else already mentioned, why would any school lower or keep tuition the same when you can get a loan for anything? Does this sound familiar? Why did we have a housing loan bubble? EXACT same reason. It's almost like we never learn. I know it's contradictory to be saying this as I have student loans myself for dental school, but I really think the problem lies with the schools. What's going to happen is what should have happened along the way anyways ( just like the huge drop in housing prices following the bubble, to levels in line with what they should have been in the first place) Schools are going to have to lay off people, cut operational costs, and acceptance will get more competitive. Sure, school may even get harder due to less faculty (which is very important for dental school as many of you may know), but we'll just have to deal with it (or rather future generations will).

I'm just in awe at how anyone can go to USC or NYU, it just costs too much. I know you may not have other options, but look at it in another perspective:

Let's say you try to go get a loan for a new car. You have narrowed it down to 3 cars:
Ferrari= $300K
Mercedes=$100K
Ford= $40K

So you get accepted to USC (Ferrari) and, voila, you have a loan to buy the new car, even though it still gets you from A to B, it costs a hell of a lot more. THe sad thing is, you didn't get approved for a loan for the Mercedes or Ford, so those are out of the question.

Would you still get the Ferrari just because you got approved for the loan for it? I know I wouldn't, but that's just me. If I were you, I'd move to TX and live here a year, get in state tuition prices and try to get accepted here before I would shell out a half million for USC or NYU. Look at it this way, you could LIVE COMFORTABLY, BUY A HOUSE AND MAKE MONEY with the difference in price you would pay going to a TX school vs those places. Just my opinion though....

bababooya · Jul 8, 2011

longhornpride said:
why continue? what am I supposed to do with the 100k debt i've accumulated if I drop out. As far as I know, bio degrees don't make squat.

you're lucky because you're going to a Texas school where they don't screw you out the ass for a degree. I'm talking on behalf of students that will leave dental school with 300k+ in loans. And it's not just Arizona, Cali and NY that are saturated. Good luck finding a good location in Austin, Dallas, San Antonio, Waco, Houston, etc. Hell even a town 100,000 person town like Beaumont is saturated to hell with dentists. Yes there is a shortage in some places... but do you really want to move to Brownsville or El Paso?

Dentistry is still a great profession... don't get me wrong. But the dream they sell you on when those dean's visit your pre-dental club is complete BS. The dentist I work for right now started of with a 60k salary because she couldn't find a better paying job in Austin. She now owns her own practice and has 10+ other dentists just in her zipcode.

And as soon as you find a good location... you'll see 3 other dentists open shop right next door to you as soon as they hear how well you're doing. This wouldn't be an issue if the baby boomer dentists would retire like they should. However because of better ergonomics and lack of retirement saving... none of them are retiring.

yeah well we will just have to wait it out. Baby boomers may not be retiring, but they have to retire at some point. They cant be dentists forever. And when they do retire, it is going to open up the market for the younger dentists.

Contach · Jul 9, 2011

Interesting reads. There was a lot of information in the last dozen or so posts. Thanks for that. Here are some things I'd like to butt in with, however.

(1) The Occupational Outlook Handbook published by the US Department of Labor in 2010-2011 pegs the employment outlook at better than average for new dentists. In addition, the growth of the profession is estimated to be 16% from 2008 until 2018. Their reasons being that (1) eventually dentists will need to retire opening up more spots, (2) the baby boomer generation is getting older and is increasingly in need of more care, (3) the recent fascination in cosmetic dentistry (a point noone has brought up yet), and (4) the rate at which dental schools are churning out dentists does not meet the need for dentists. Remember, when dental schools want to open, the government has to approve them. The article does cite that dentistry follows the ebb and flow of the business cycle and as such, since 2008 it is reasonable to see a bit of a downturn. These are professionals telling us that the job outlook for dentists is good. While I value longhorns observations, I trust the department of labor as a reliable source that is able to draw on multiple resources to come to their conclusions.
Bureau of Labor Statistics, U.S. Department of Labor, Occupational Outlook Handbook, 2010-11 Edition, Dentists, on the Internet at http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos072.htm (visited July 09, 2011).
(2) As the article touches on, I think the increasing need for cosmetic dentistry will affect dentistry a lot. We are seeing this in medicine too, a lot of people are willing to spend a lot of money on how they look. Dentistry, or atleast the smart dentists, will adapt and follow the demand.
(3) You'll notice that the Occupational Outlook predicts the rate of growth of dental jobs at around 16%, while that is likely based on the amount of new dentists entering the workforce less those leaving the workforce, the population between 2008 and 2018 is going to grow about 25%. In other words, there will be more patients per dentist in 2018 than in 2008. This is good news.
(4) I know as a pre-dent I wouldn't have had the foresight to look at dental schools' cost of attendance and work out how I was going to pay any loans I would take out. At the time, I was glad I got in. I think a lot of current dental students feel the same way, and unfortunately have a lot of debt on their shoulders. We should understand that it's hard for someone to be a year or two in and admit that perhaps this wasn't the right decision. It's hard to look objectively at your situation and say, "Damn I have a lot of debt." Some people in this thread feel that these students are acting irrationally, and to that I would agree, but it's definitely not easy for them. When you start thinking about your debt, no one wants to think about the extreme difficulty they will have when paying it off. It's unfortunate, but a reality. Another thing I'm worried about is I see a lot of women in dental school, a growing percentage actually where it's basically 50/50 now. From observations I've made, women are much less likely to work full-time than men. And if you aren't working full-time, I see it to be increasingly difficult to pay off student loans. On top of that, I hear a lot of women who want to have kids sooner rather than later, and having children often means you have to take substantial time off. I see this being a big problem in the near future.
(5) Inflation. I am not American so I don't qualify, but I understand that a good percentage of the American government-backed loans are interest-free. This will help these students a lot!
(6) The unemployment of the general population is what, 8 or 9% at the moment? That is phenomenally high... Think of how lucky we are, I rarely hear of a dentist that is unemployed.
(7) I am not worried about dentistry. There are obstacles, but overall I still think it's a great profession. Every profession deals with serious problems. It sucks that there is no magic bullet job. I like the flexibility that it offers, and I wouldn't trade it for anything. I am not greedy, I would much rather work 3 days a week and make a modest living, than work 5 days and make good money. I think it is great that as a professional you are able to do that.
(8) Texas is great, I hear they have good steak 🙂 and wide roads. Oh and good dental schools too.

Side Note: Canada's banking system has prided itself on not suffering as much as the American banks did thru the recent troubles. What I hear repeatedly here is that the American system was basically making fake money out of nothing, and people were leveraging money they didn't have. A bank would evaluate a house at 100s of thousands more than it should have been, and people would be able to take out loans on that amount. The Canadian banks were very careful and thus barely had a backlash from the housing market. Similarly, our government-backed student loans cap out at around 10-13k / year depending on which province you are in. The rest you have to take out from private banks. That sort of sucks for people who can't qualify for private bank loans (ie. don't have a family co-signer). Be grateful that your system is offering you the opportunity, but I guess with that comes a lot of responsibility and foresight on the individual's part. On the other hand, perhaps they are enabling a lot of individuals the right to an education they would have otherwise not had - which I think is great and powerful in itself, even if a lot of students may end up struggling.

AlbinoPolarBear · Jul 9, 2011

Contach said:
Side Note: Canada's banking system has prided itself on not suffering as much as the American banks did thru the recent troubles. What I hear repeatedly here is that the American system was basically making fake money out of nothing, and people were leveraging money they didn't have. A bank would evaluate a house at 100s of thousands more than it should have been, and people would be able to take out loans on that amount. The Canadian banks were very careful and thus barely had a backlash from the housing market. Similarly, our government-backed student loans cap out at around 10-13k / year depending on which province you are in. The rest you have to take out from private banks. That sort of sucks for people who can't qualify for private bank loans (ie. don't have a family co-signer). Be grateful that your system is offering you the opportunity, but I guess with that comes a lot of responsibility and foresight on the individual's part. On the other hand, perhaps they are enabling a lot of individuals the right to an education they would have otherwise not had - which I think is great and powerful in itself, even if a lot of students may end up struggling.

Don't want it to get completely off-topic, but to respond to your side note...

The Canadian banks had as much trouble with the financial crisis as the Americans did. Keep in mind that the Canadian economy is heavily influenced by the American one. To put things in perspective, our bail-out was $70 billion, while the American bail out was $700 billion. Considering the population of Canada is ~1/10th the population of America, we had the exact same problems (eg. housing bubble) the Americans had.

Why all the new D-schools, Why so much debt and loans?

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