Seriously what a waste

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oddballstar

oddballstar

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Alrite AuD lovers. i am a Aud graduate top of class etc etc but seriously this is such a loosers field... salary sucks.. growth sucks. I just was not smart is doing my excel sheet calculation before entering this program.. i just wasted 4 years! fortuanately on schol so no debt.
I alert folks who are tinkering with the idea of doing Aud because its a DR degree to be NOT fooled...
Most of the folks in Audiology business are timid and not cream la cream ( intellectual wise)...
I am getting on my MCAT and hoping to reverse my loss by going through med school

so newbiess waiting to consider Aud better go do Nursing or PA or some course liek that where in you will make 90K!!! not 55K!!!

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oddballstar said:
Alrite AuD lovers. i am a Aud graduate top of class etc etc but seriously this is such a loosers field... salary sucks.. growth sucks. I just was not smart is doing my excel sheet calculation before entering this program.. i just wasted 4 years! fortuanately on schol so no debt.
I alert folks who are tinkering with the idea of doing Aud because its a DR degree to be NOT fooled...
Most of the folks in Audiology business are timid and not cream la cream ( intellectual wise)...
I am getting on my MCAT and hoping to reverse my loss by going through med school

so newbiess waiting to consider Aud better go do Nursing or PA or some course liek that where in you will make 90K!!! not 55K!!!

:thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown
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wow. ok. every point that you brought up has already been discussed on this forum but i don't think i've ever heard it said so crassly. audiology is in many ways a disadvantaged health profession, no doubt. most people don't realize that before they go into it, but i think most of the people on this forum have already figured it out within a couple years of school. there have been students in my program who have left with their master's and went on to med school.

people who choose to stay in the field get PhD's, do research, open private practices, or otherwise provide leadership in the field to advance its status. i think most people choose to stay in the field because they find it a rewarding and enjoyable career, despite the challenges. was anybody concerned with the advancement of the field at your AuD program? it seems like you have a lot of disdain for audiologists so i am wondering if there was no one at your program to respect/admire/inspire you.

in any case you obviously have no love for the work so good luck in med school!
 
Yes I came out harsh because i read "so much" love for the job etc.
Come on.. all of us need a good ROI. Why even a dental hygienist makes equal salary!! Thinking of this makes me shudder....
I guess most women in this field are fooling themselves not realizing their true potential..

My post was specifically meant for those pigeon holed new folks who are considering grad school . NEVER EVER WASTE your valuable time in AuD degree....
And if you are planning on taking loans for AuD .. good lord... what a poor call...
 
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oddballstar said:
Yes I came out harsh because i read "so much" love for the job etc.
Come on.. all of us need a good ROI. Why even a dental hygienist makes equal salary!! Thinking of this makes me shudder....
I guess most women in this field are fooling themselves not realizing their true potential..

My post was specifically meant for those pigeon holed new folks who are considering grad school . NEVER EVER WASTE your valuable time in AuD degree....
And if you are planning on taking loans for AuD .. good lord... what a poor call...
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cidanu brought up some great points and i dont think you really heard her. amazingly a lot of audiologists do continue in the profession because of the love for the job and for helping people. time and time again that is the thread that connects people within this field. then there are also those that have the business sense and/or savvy to see where audiology is lacking and where it could and should be. instead of hating on audiology why not try to help?

i stumbled into audiology and i liked it as i continued to learn more about it. but what i really enjoy and thrive upon is the clinical aspect of it, connecting with patients and doing my best to help people - whether it's through the fitting of a hearing aid but more importantly educating and equipping a patient for success in difficult communication situations.

you raise real concerns about the future of audiology but you could work on your tone and language. im pretty sure you will find many people here on these forums that would love to have a conversation with you instead of trying to make this a shouting match.
 
Yeh, why is it that I never see any SLP, AuD's etc attending top med schools? or for that matter top MBA programs? clearly its that intellectual power that is lacking in these fields... why is that a Engineer or a journalist wants to be an MD not a AuD...
ladies we need to wake up...
as long as there is no direct access ( for billing) which I know WILL NEVER change...
plus loads of women which naturally keeps the salary level suppressed and lower value of AuD degree (sounds Doctor of blah blah) we will continue to face the music that is be happy with 60K even when you are 59 years old..
For those who are thinking helping is all great. we live in a capitalist nation.....
Have you ever wondered what a ENT makes in the place you work?
 
oddballstar said:
Yeh, why is it that I never see any SLP, AuD's etc attending top med schools? or for that matter top MBA programs? clearly its that intellectual power that is lacking in these fields... why is that a Engineer or a journalist wants to be an MD not a AuD...
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1. Do you attend those schools? If you don't, then you can't make inferences about whether or not SLPs or AuDs attend for MBA or MD degrees.
2. Top medical schools don't necessarily offer AuD programs, and if they do, it's not a given that the program will be quality.

I'll be good this time, and restrain from personal jabs.
 
I agree with the title of your thread because your comments really haven't raised any intriguing points. For the amount of education required, audiologists are clearly underpaid, that is obvious. But focusing your life solely on being able to make money is a shallow pursuit regardless of if we "live in a capitalist nation." Audiology is important work that really helps people.

If you are a person who is incredibly concerned about your wage, what were you thinking when you chose to go to into speech & hearing sciences rather than a field that is more traditionally lucrative like finance? It isn't like the bottom just dropped out on the field, wages have never been high. Most people I know in my program are well aware of what their income prospects are like.

It is absolutely false that intellectual power is lacking in this field. I have no idea why you would come to that conclusion based on some idea you have that journalists want to become doctors. You never actually mentioned which school you attended but I would be curious to know if you don't mind sharing. I've attended the University of Washington & Gallaudet University, and at both schools my programs had many intelligent people.

Good luck on your med. school application, I hear those admissions essays are real tough to write.

oddballstar said:
Yeh, why is it that I never see any SLP, AuD's etc attending top med schools? or for that matter top MBA programs? clearly its that intellectual power that is lacking in these fields... why is that a Engineer or a journalist wants to be an MD not a AuD...
ladies we need to wake up...
as long as there is no direct access ( for billing) which I know WILL NEVER change...
plus loads of women which naturally keeps the salary level suppressed and lower value of AuD degree (sounds Doctor of blah blah) we will continue to face the music that is be happy with 60K even when you are 59 years old..
For those who are thinking helping is all great. we live in a capitalist nation.....
Have you ever wondered what a ENT makes in the place you work?
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I'm glad you found that you didn't like the profession before you starting practicing. I would be embarrassed to have a peer like you in this field with the rest of us.
 
Reading oddballstar's OP really took me by surprise, not because of the forthrightness and crass language, but because I have held almost the exact same thoughts in the back of my head for the past four years. I am a recent Au.D. graduate who has decided not to enter the profession. During my program, there were countless times I debated quitting since I gradually began to realize the daunting challenges that audiology faces. I should note that I tend to be a pessimist and maybe focus on the negatives more than the positives, but the negatives of audiology are so numerous that it is sometimes difficult to find the silver lining. We all know the issues that audiology faces, so I won't get into that, but oddballstar is absolutely correct about the lack of intellectual prowess found in our ranks. I was incredibly disappointed with my classmate's level of basic maturity and decency. I really do think the Au.D. is completely unnecessary for the tasks that audiologists ultimately perform in the field. We are far far overtrained for what we actually do versus what we actually earn. I know that for current students, reading a thread like this is a tough pill to swallow, and it's natural to want to enter a defensive mode to counteract this negativity, but at the end of the day, audiology needs a serious reality check, and I applaud the OP's courage for getting this much needed conversation rolling. As I mentioned before, there were many times in my program when I contemplated quitting and was quite depressed about the thought of leaving, so for whatever reason, I decided to stick it out, if not for any other reason than to avoid the psychological cost of quitting a graduate program. I don't plan to work a day in audiology. I'm moving on to other things, and I am much happier not having audiology be a part of my life. That won't be true for everyone because I have come across many people who truly love what they do, but I think if you really sit down and think logically about the numbers and the true reality, pursuing audiology should generally be avoided unless, as the medical school folks like to say, "you can't imagine yourself doing anything else." I'm going to say something now that could really upset quite a few folks here, but it needs to be said...we are trained in so many different areas, from basic diagnostic assessments to HA's, to CI's, to vestibular evaluations and electrophysiology. However, at the end of the day, the big secret that you learn throughout your program is that about 95% of audiologists spend about 95% of their clinical time doing two things: giving basic hearing evals and doing basic HA work. Arguably, those two skills could be taught to a high school graduate in about one month or so, given a good teacher. Given this, we really need to do a gut check to justify spending ***8 years!!!*** in college/graduate school. It doesn't take a mathematician to quickly realize that something doesn't add up here. Now I hear/read negative comments about audiology all the time, and the typical response is along the line of Gandhi's "be the change you wish to see in the world" philosophy. That may be true, but it's important not to get upset with folks like myself and oddballstar, who just simply don't want to work in such an embattled profession. Feel free to challenge what I have said here, because I'm sure there are good arguments on both sides.
 
The reason that Audiologist's will and always will spend most of their time doing basic hearing evaluations and doing basic hearing aid work is because that is what the profession was built around. However, in order to continue moving the field forward and to ultimately become the primary Ear care professionals in the field, there needs to be enthusiastic graduates and professionals as well as unity with Audiological lobbying groups.

The analogy can be made with the Optometry profession. My Dad has been practicing Optometry for over 35 years- before they were allowed to prescribe medication. Currently, he has more of a "medical" practice meaning that he treats diseases of the eye and has the ability to act in a proactive measure when diagnosing and treating eye ailments. Does he still do basic eye exams and and sell glasses? Of course he does, that will never change. However, just as Optometrists have become the primary Eye professionals in the United States, and split off from Opthamologists, Audiologists must continue to push their scope of practice and use this as a model to split from ENT's.

Do not underestimate the implications for an Audiologist to act in a proactive measure (with medications or other) than just a reactive measure (treatment AFTER hearing is gone or going). That principle ads legitimacy to the field, trust with patients, and really is the propeller that should put Audiology salaries on the up and up as well as continue moving the field forward. This will not happen over night nor will it be an easy road to travel, but nothing will ever be achieved if never attempted. Again, it is not impossible as we have seen Optometry plow that road before us.

The steps that need to be accomplished to complete this task is unity in the field, enthusiasm, and a heck of a lobbying group! I think it can be accomplished, but it will certainly take time.

Sorry both of you felt like you wasted time and money, but like I said earlier, I am glad that you found out now.
 
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TXAUD said:
The reason that Audiologist's will and always will spend most of their time doing basic hearing evaluations and doing basic hearing aid work is because that is what the profession was built around. However, in order to continue moving the field forward and to ultimately become the primary Ear care professionals in the field, there needs to be enthusiastic graduates and professionals as well as unity with Audiological lobbying groups.
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Thank you for your thoughtful input, TXAUD. You made some very good points in a thread I would have expected to devolve.

For the record, this conversation HAS been going on, in other threads and in this sticky.
 
there are definitely pros and cons of any profession. i can't tell you how many times i've said to my boyfriend at night, "i should have been a physician's assistant." i see my friend who is a PA making 6 figures when she has a master's and seemingly not dealing with any of the issues audiologists deal with. however, she's working a million hours and on call every weekend. that's exactly one of the reasons i chose NOT to enter that field. it's a little bit of "the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence." another friend of mine got her MD and completed a year of a surgical residency. she was poised to be making bank. but then she decided she didn't like it, and she pursued a family practice residency, where her income will be halved or cut into a third of what she would have been making as a surgeon. i think at the end of the day choosing any career is a compromise. in the ideal world i would be independently wealthy and have homes all over the world and could spend all my "work" time doing charity service. i agree that audiology certainly has a lot of issues and the monetary ROI is generally low, but the decision on whether to pursue the profession is an individual one. you can't make a blanket statement based on your own values and apply it to everyone. that goes for both sides of this argument.

in terms of the dearth of intellectual abilities of people in the field, i won't say that i haven't had similar thoughts. but i will say that there are many many brilliant people in the field and i've been lucky enough to be mentored by several of them. i think that as a student and a new professional, it is ESSENTIAL that you have a good mentor/model. if you're the smartest person you know of course you're not going to be inspired. also you may be smart but you need someone with experience to share their wisdom.
 
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eastr90 said:
I'm not sure the whole classmates are immature and indecent argument really holds water. I think regardless of what program you are in there are going to be serious people and there are going to be people who are to be immature and seem dumb. I have no doubt it is the same way in medical school, PA school, and other the other schools that is merely standard distribution at work. As far as debt load goes I think a lot of AuD students will have significantly less debt coming out of school because many students have assistantships that bring down the costs. Medical schools on the other hand do not give assistantships to my knowledge which leaves a much larger debt load on their students. While salaries may not be as high as people would like I would still like to make the point that 60k out of school is a very good salary. 60k a year is also right in line with what people with masters students make getting out of school. Obviously now it is a doctoral degree but the switch was recent and these things don't change overnight. Especially with the economy in the shape it was in and the looming possibility of another dip into serious recession. I don't understand the hate on being someone who solely deals with hearing aids either. No one snickers at people when they say they are optometrists and I'm sure optometrists don't have some complex about being in a profession that deals mainly with eyeglasses. Obviously they have a little larger scope of practice but mainly they deal with glasses. I don't see anyone call them "eyeglass dispensers" as if that is the entirety of their profession. Just as vision is a crucial sense so is hearing. Why should a profession be belittled for dealing mainly in hearing aids? As if hearing is somehow a less valuable sense than vision. After all they do say: "you can only see to the nearest wall but you can hear to the edge of the village." So that is bogus to say that dealing with hearing aids is somehow of lesser value. Your argument about training is also extremely specious. Find any profession and you can pretty much make the argument that if you give someone a few months of training they will be able to perform the tasks. That argument is no more a knock on audiology than it is on a majority of jobs in the United States and the world. A lot of jobs are not that complex and don't require years of advanced training. If you take a hard look even at your parents job I'm sure you could perform it at some level given some rigorous on the job training for a few months. That argument is more against the whole US higher education system than it is about audiology so you can take that back to the drawing board. As for the future of the profession hearing aid sales are no going to go anywhere in the future. More and more people are buying them, we have an aging population, more young people victim to NIHL, and hundreds of thousands of veterans. Automatic audiometers cannot interpret results, HA fitting, orientation and the like cannot be done from call centers in India, and people like to be looked after by someone with a nice degree by their name. While I agree a four year program was an overreach it is not that bad. I personally would push more graduate classes into undergrad and make it a three or four years but make only the first two years heavy with classwork. I'm on the fence about the value of capstone projects but that's beside the point. As a profession what needs to be done is for audiologists to grow some balls and move for hearing aid dispensers to lose their licensing. They are not trained for the job and they need to be told politely that they are not wanted or needed. The second major step is for audiologist to take ownership of the profession and move into private practice en masse. If we don't ask for respect no one is going to give it to us. While for better or worse the MD is the top dog in the health field we need to have a respectful synergistic relationship with ENTs ala optometrists and ophthalmologists. More aggressive steps need to be taken to ensure that people get the proper services they desire and we can't do that if we are under the thumb of MDs. Sorry for the rambling and this is probably a bit disjointed but somethings had to be said.
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like.
 
I think there are some great points being made it this discussion and I'm very happy that we can actually have this discussion without it going up in flames. I think you're right about my attack on the length of audiology training being more about the U.S. education system in general than audiology in particular, so that really is a separate discussion. I'm still going to hold to my assertion about the intellect gap in audiology versus other professions. I'm doing this because I have the perspective of spending time in two different graduate programs, one in audiology and another in a subfield of psychology, where I am currently studying. My observations are of course biased and the sample size is small (2 grad programs out of thousands), but there was an enormous difference in the two environments. Every single student in my psychology program is incredibly talented (save for myself) and I often feel I am not worthy enough to be in the presence of these folks. The articulation of their arguments is clear and provoking, and they have a reaching perspective on any number of issues. Different story in audiology, I felt embarrassed to be training with some of my peers. I overheard terrible, awful, base conversations, and there was a vicious effort to attack others and to bring them down. There were exceptions- we had one or two people worth having a decent conversation with, but the rest were really lacking in insight. I know this is not true of every program, but this was my observation.

I also want to address comparing audiology with optometry. This is tempting to do, because optometry is obviously our closest analog, but I would caution against this because I think the analogy is a false one. Optometry training is far different from audiology. Similarly, the entrance requirements are different, with optometry programs requiring a much more rigorous basic science background, compared with basically no science background required for audiology, with some minor exceptions. There has been some chatter about the possibility of audiologists eventually having prescriptive authority to treat simple cases of OM with antibiotics and the like, but this is true nonsense as we are in no way trained or qualified to do this. Even with additional training, its simply a bad idea for audiologists to practice medicine. There are highly qualified individuals capable of doing this, and they are called ENT physicians. Optometrists have a much longer and stable history of being trained to treat diseases of the eye. They have the authority to prescribe anything from the PDR as long as it pertains to the eye. Even if we had the training, should an audiologist be able to prescribe anything from the PDR as long as it pertains to the ear? Of course not, there are well qualified people already trained to do this, and they are called ENT physicians. So I really don't see how a respectful, synergistic relationship is possible between audiologists and ENT's when we basically want to usurp the skills they were trained to do. For now, I think we should avoid any kind of comparison between audiology and optometry because there are far more differences than similarities between these two professions.

Finally, I don't think it's very sporting to say that we must get rid of HA dispensers. Perhaps that would be okay if we had clear evidence that audiologists have greater success rates than HA dispensers, but that evidence simply does not exist.

So again there is much room for debate here, but we need to look at this from a logical standpoint and understand the facts from a dispassionate perspective.
 
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I agree with your assertion that most Optometry students/professionals have a Science background and that it seems about 50% of incoming Audiology students do not (though that is a debate for another time because nowadays one does not necessarily have to have a Science Undergraduate degree in order to be accepted into Medical school much less Optometry school, they need to have specific Math and Science courses), but I strongly disagree with your rhetoric regarding the lack of parallels between the fields. In fact, Optometry used to focus solely on "glasses" sales (some private practices still only do that type of work), working out of Pharmacies, and bore its origins in treatment programs rather than preventive programs. What they did was expand their scope of practice and have molded their profession to be where they wanted it to be, just as Audiologists must do. I can tell you with 100% certainty that Ophthalmologists DID NOT want to give up their "medical"/prescription rights to Optometrists. The problem is that in order to be an "expert" in a field as specific as even the eye, Ophthalmologists do not have the time or the inclination to do basic eye evaluations- they are looking for problems that require surgery not "minor" ailments of the eye. Obviously an Otolaryngologist focuses on the ears, nose, and throat (and to some extent the neck)- quite a broad spectrum to be an expert in all 3 areas but certainly larger than what Ophthalmologists focus on. It is for this reason that Audiologists, for as long as the profession is around, will have most of their work in basic hearing evaluations and day to day ear care which should include the treatment of minor ear infections through whatever means best suits the patient (including but not limited to medication). There is no doubt that ENT's will fight tooth and nail to keep Audiologists from prescribing, but it is no different than the Ophthalmologists fighting Optometrists some years back. I do not know what program you attended, but my program incorporates pharmacology lectures into our Clinical Audiology course. There is only one way to learn something and that begins with the classroom and ends in practicum. Have Audiologists always practiced Ceruman management? Is that duty specifically outlined in our scope of practice? The answer to both of these rhetorical questions is no, but that has not stopped Audiologists from doing this type of treatment nor should it.

The problem that I see with many of your arguments (and I am paraphrasing) reads something similar to "that's how it's always been done so that is the only way." Optometrists have beginnings similar to where Audiology currently is but again, they have molded their profession to be in a place that they want it to be. I do not and will not accept the fact that just because Audiologists do not currently have the ability to prescribe medication does that mean we should not be able to nor will it ever be out of the realm of possibility. Perhaps I am hedging a failing bet, but I can assure you that many of my classmates feel the way that I do and I can also assure you that I will do everything in my power to advocate for the Audiology profession in this regard.

So again yes, I agree that the Optometry profession is light years ahead of us and thus have more experience with medication, but from the base of their origins to where they're currently at, there has been a steady progression and advancement of their field; they have not always been where they currently are. When comparing them to Audiologists that is what I was examining- the progression and continued advancement to an ultimate goal.
 
Great
Thank god,. there are others out there who have the courage to face the reality.
I wonder how folks can defend low salary for so many years in school.... better to make money through bar tending isnt it?

Did i get personal in any post?I am scratching my head...

in any case, this degree is doomed... there is no to low value even among tech firms like phonak , starkey etc...

women wake up.... get out before you become too old
 
If we're talking about useless degrees and low incomes jobs, audiology certainly isn't the worst. It's degrading to know people think something you're so passionate about is useless.
 
I'm just curious how you got into grad school with such poor grammar. Statistically speaking you, and CBA300 would be considered outliers. Just saying...
 
I know reading a thread like this can be discouraging, but I think it is actually healthy to see some "anti-audiology" discussion that goes beyond simply addressing the challenges and calling for more leadership, take the future into our own hands, et cetera, et cetera.

Only a few more arguments here:

1. Cerumen management is in our scope of practice (ASHA Ad Hoc Committee on Scope of Practice in Audiology, professional roles and activities section C, number 5).

2. I am fine with audiologists wanting to expand their scope of practice into additional non-medical treatment and prevention methods, but the line has to be drawn with getting into prescribing. It might be fun to have a nice little Rx pad and authoritatively scribble down a script for antibiotics for OM in a pediatric patient, but what happens if something goes horribly wrong (adverse reaction etc.)? That is seriously a position we never want to find ourselves in. If anyone here wants that responsibility, they should go to medical school and train to be a physician, because that is the job of a physician.
 
We will have to agree to disagree about prescribing.

I am not advocating grabbing a prescription pad and haphazardly prescribing away like a mad scientist. However, if it is advantageous for the patient to be treated in this manner by an Audiologist (again I am not talking rehabilitation of MAJOR injuries or infections), and medicine has the ability to cure them of an illness PRIOR to further damage to the Auditory system, then that should be a part of the Audiological scope. Adverse reactions to medications happen when MD's prescribe- it is bound to happen no matter the precautions taken or whom is prescribing. However, with continued education and extensive training in this department, the amount of "mistakes" will be dramatically reduced. If prescribing medication is something you or another practitioner is not comfortable with then you or they should not take part in it; that would be a liability. Not everyone is comfortable with this and that includes some Audiologists- that decision would be up to the discretion of each particular Audiologist.

Audiologists should be the primary caretakers of the auditory system and thus should have the ability to take care of their patients with the best possible treatments, whatever those may be.
 
Big Al: If you disagree with someone, you may want to explain why rather than resort to personal attacks.

The two people--make that three, including me--on this thread who have been disillusioned with audiology are really not outliers. I read somewhere that 40% of audiology students consider quitting, which definitely corresponds with my cohort. Most of us have considered quitting (and some actually have quit) due to their disappointment with the field.

Various other posters: We really don't have the training necessary to start writing prescriptions. Many of us have never even taken Bio 101 or Chem 101. We are not educated properly to prescribe medications. I know y'all seem to be referring to "minor" issues like otitis media, but otitis media is no longer a minor issue. We are seeing more and more antibiotic-resistant OM and this is due in large part to medical mismanagement. We do NOT want to contribute to the poor management of these cases. We need to leave medical treatment to qualified ENTs.
 
Out of curiosity what are you three who have become disillusioned with the field do now? Have you gone into another graduate degree or have you tried to find work in the job market with a BA/BS in comm dis/speech and hearing science? What was it that made you decide against continuing in the field and how far along in the program were you when you made the choice to withdraw?
 
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quiteaud said:
Big Al: If you disagree with someone, you may want to explain why rather than resort to personal attacks.
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Not a personal attack but a serious question. This could explain a lot. Where is it that you read about the 40%. We all know how that argument goes, he said she said. I don't have time to give a full argument, as I am busy being disillusioned by audiology classes and the professors that teach them.
 
The notion that just because we do not currently train extensively on pharmacological management therefore we should NEVER learn it is asinine, in my opinion. Just because it is not extensively taught in current curriculum and included in what is allowed, does NOT mean that it cannot be LEARNED later. Again, I point to the Optometry profession in which until about 20 or so years ago (I do not know the exact timeline), they DID NOT extensively study for treatments using medicine- this was a LEARNED practice for both incoming students and currently practicing professionals AFTER legislation was passed to allow them to do so. Perhaps your notion that Audiology students cannot learn this type of treatment stems from the disgust you had for many of your cohorts and the "base conversations" that you were witness to. Further, maybe it feeds your theory that current Audiology students and current Audiologists do not have the mental wherewithal to understand and learn when the appropriate times and the proper uses of such medications would be prudent. I would disagree with you (surprise surprise).

In regards to your argument about antibiotic resistant "super viruses", many times these are born because the patient themselves do not follow proper medical instruction and fail to take ALL of the medication. When this happens the bacteria is not completely killed, builds immunity, and then becomes resistant to whichever antibiotic was originally prescribed. However, let's say that it is medical mismanagement on the part of the Doctor for a second because that does happen. Does that mean that the MD's (ENT's) that are currently prescribing these medications and causing antibiotic resistant illnesses need to re-learn pharmacology? If they are prescribing in an incorrect manner, that means they need to LEARN how to properly do so, correct? Just as these ENT's have to re-learn the proper use, Audiologists must also LEARN the proper uses of medicine. The argument that Audiologists should not contribute to medical mismanagement thus should not prescribe is thin at best because it is my belief that most students in the Audiology field DO have the mental ability to LEARN how to properly do this task.
 
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to me it makes sense that ENT's are the ones prescribing medication for otitis media, as surgery is often a treatment for it. even certain kinds of outer ear infections could be life-threatening if not treated properly.
 
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I'm in agreement that we should agree to disagree about Rx privileges for audiologists as we have each made our points.

This thread kind of feels like the film "12 angry men." One by one, we are having people come over to the other side...we are up to 3 now. I personally started to have doubts about audiology almost from the first day. There was just something unsettling about what I was about to spend the next 4 years doing. Looking back, I should have probably left then, but I decided to stick it out. I went back and forth thinking "maybe this isn't so bad, maybe I can see myself doing this," so I continued to waiver until I reached about the second or third year. At that point, I was already too far in to quit, and when you're more than halfway into the woods, the fastest way out isn't to turn around, it's to keep going in a straight line. Needless to say, the 3rd and 4th years were not happy times for me (especially 4th year), but somehow I managed to finish and graduate, and I think there is at least some value gained from persisting to achieve the commitment I made when I started the program. I am now completing a master's degree in a different field, which is in the same area as my undergrad degree (I didn't major in communication disorders). Fortunately, I was funded for a good portion of my Au.D. program through graduate assistanceships, so debt isn't too much of an issue. My goal is to extract as many transferable skills as possible from the Au.D. and apply them to another area.

I know it's easy to "hate" on those of us who have very negative opinions of the field, but remember that there are "haters" in every field. Look around at some of the other forums here...there are plenty of people who hate medicine, pharmacy, optometry, etc. I think it's important to try and understand where they are coming from and see if we can learn anything from their experiences.
 
A husband’s story

Aaah, audiology! Its been few years since I googled this term. And what do I find!!! This discussion!!! Very lively… I thought this is a perfect platform for me to share view from the “other side”. I don’t know how many of you have partners who are focused and willing to think out of the box and guide you to succeed financially and career wise.

My wife (speechie) decided a year into our marriage to pursue aud at a place away from where we lived. So the next 4 years were spent separated and we survived .. no worries there but this decision was made using “what my heart said” not “using head” and goal was I will get ahead of the crowd before the rules changes have aud and position for a growing career both financially and nature of work…

Well well what happened? as the OP mentioned no financial gain , no growth just reduced to a person running tests… I could see the disappointment in her eyes.. salary rock bottom .. overall gloomy, I personally from reading now believe there is no great future in this profession.



What did we learn:
Those in her class who did not pursue aud (4 years) were 250K ahead in their earning ( pre tax figures) ,,,,, I believe to some extent that salary is important and should be fair for the education received unfortunately your profession seems to lack the fire power ( people …mentioned by OP)

Rescue plan:
So, I am simple sales man and decided to help her out. I coaxed her to think out of the box and consider an MBA. She resisted initially but I convinced her to read Wall street journal, company annual reports of Pharma/hospital chains/devices companies etc.. and that helped her see the outside world…..
Then I guided her to consider school ( I showed her a chart … I have attached for all to see what I mean).. an eye opener…

Decision using HEAD:
She is now at HBS (check: www.hbs.edu) . appears she is an odd candidate with such an unique background. I am very happy to see that her confidence level has multiplied a zillion times, realizes that the world just opened up and talks all the management mumbo jumbo words, strategy/M&A blah blah… aaah feel good… during summer she interned at McKinsey ( check: www.mckinsey.com)

Chart for life time earnings ( only pre tax and no loans considered):
Candidate age in 2012 : 30
Retirement at: 60
Shows three cases: one sticking with aud… the other deciding to do mba (2years $0) the other deciding to do MD ( four years $0)
Note: post mba at mckinsey like firms you can pull in 110K but involves to travel there fore I put a job at a generic healthcare firm with 85K as start.. moderate travel.

Lesson:
While passion is important its sensible to take care of finances also and be practical is positioning yourself …

may be the graph is self explanatory
 

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I cant keep track of who is saying what, but you can find the area you agree or disagree with me on.

First--My background is in Chemistry and Physics. Yes I chose audiology versus med school. I was intimidated by the application process and the mere idea of med school. I applied to both audiology and chemical physics programs. When I decided on audiology and got to know my peers, I was dumbfounded by the lack of hard science courses and still have a problem with that today. I feel like if we are all for furthering our profession and want it to be more respected we need to be getting a larger and and more solid understanding of the physiology, down to cellular level, of the diseases we are treating. The requirements for entering an AuD program need to be raised. However, this means that the requirements for an undergraduate degree in the field also needs to be raised, and I do not see that happening any time soon.

Second--I agree that we need more pharmacology training. There is not a single case history form that we do not ask "What medications are you taking?" but yet most AuDs have little to no training in pharmacy. I personally think its awful for a child to have to be bounced around doctors offices before they can get treatment for an ear infection. But with respect for ENTs and the possible need for surgery, I think that there would need to be an understanding that there still would be a scope of practice and that if prescribing medications is not something you are comfortable with (much like cerumen removal) you should refer or refer for other complicated cases. Basically, I am all for expanding our scope of practice within reason.

Third--I still believe there is a place for AuDs. I also believe that it is imperative to remember it is a young degree. Yes, technically, we have made the jump from a masters to a doctorate, but our pay has not caught up, that is for most people....and if this is news to you, yes you may want to think about if this is the right profession for you. If you have a problem with the pay and are unhappy, get out, no use in making yourself unhappy when you know you what will make you happy. There are those of us that still can find happiness in helping people enjoy being involved in their lives again by empowering them with hearing devices and discovering the cause (and possibly treating) their balance disorders.

I know I have more, unfortunately, I have to go do a mundane hearing test, sell a person some hearing aids, discuss boring testing and treatment strategies for APD, and possibly discover why a woman is falling down. ;););)
 
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I'm actually still enrolled in an Au.D. program. I'm just not as happy as I expected to be. The vast majority of what we do as audiologists is technician-type work. I know a lot of people will be upset that I'm saying this and others will just say, "Well, that's why we need to broaden our scope of practice!" It's just so much easier said than done.

I also happen to be at a top program, and yet I see a lot of crappy practice being done here. I am being taught to get into bad habits.

That said, I have decided to stick with audiology for the foreseeable future because I just straight up can't think of anything else I would rather do and would actually be willing to "start over" for. It's alright though. I would say I'm more or less satisfied. I'm just not completely head-over-heels, as I expected to be.
 
quiteaud said:
I would say I'm more or less satisfied. I'm just not completely head-over-heels, as I expected to be.
Click to expand...

Welcome to life after the honeymoon phase. This statement could be posted in an infinite number of forums and still be relevant. Nothing in life is ever as good as the brochures claim.
 
Redacted
 
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quiteaud said:
I'm actually still enrolled in an Au.D. program. I'm just not as happy as I expected to be. The vast majority of what we do as audiologists is technician-type work. I know a lot of people will be upset that I'm saying this and others will just say, "Well, that's why we need to broaden our scope of practice!" It's just so much easier said than done.

I also happen to be at a top program, and yet I see a lot of crappy practice being done here. I am being taught to get into bad habits.

That said, I have decided to stick with audiology for the foreseeable future because I just straight up can't think of anything else I would rather do and would actually be willing to "start over" for. It's alright though. I would say I'm more or less satisfied. I'm just not completely head-over-heels, as I expected to be.
Click to expand...

its called work for a reason right? but on a serious note - regarding the bad habits that you have been observing, maybe i can offer a little insight and/or words of wisdom. from day 1 at northwestern university the clinicians said that they all do things a little differently but that they do things by the book. the nugget i took away was things can be done differently but must be done correctly. then when i started placement outside of northwestern i learned that clinicians do not always do things by the book but the results must be accurate. then one day 1 of my externship one of my supervisors said, you will see things done differently, you may not agree with it all but make sure you get the right results. and i have to say, i thought i knew my stuff going into my externship but boy was i wrong. i learned so much from my supervisors, especially the intangibles like time management, efficiency and developing a sort of 6th sense about patients. it wasnt until about 6 months into my externship that i really started to hit my stride and find my real clinical persona and voice and thats when i really started to feel like i was starting to own my knowledge rather than just regurgitating.
 
Chart for life time earnings ( only pre tax and no loans considered):
Candidate age in 2012 : 30
Retirement at: 60
Shows three cases: one sticking with aud… the other deciding to do mba (2years $0) the other deciding to do MD ( four years $0)
Note: post mba at mckinsey like firms you can pull in 110K but involves to travel there fore I put a job at a generic healthcare firm with 85K as start.. moderate travel.

Lesson:
While passion is important its sensible to take care of finances also and be practical is positioning yourself …

may be the graph is self explanatory[/QUOTE]


Kudos to your story marktheword... your chart was very nice shows exactly the hole.. no one has talked about it here so this confirms that the group lack financial appetite!! i feel sorry for this community as a whole... someone even says getting into HBS is not possible... I know for a fact that tehre are 5 MD,s and 8 PhD in the current class and most of the MDs are on a dual program MD/MBA etc...

well atleast i thought of an exit plan.... thank lord..
 
quiteaud said:
The vast majority of what we do as audiologists is technician-type work.
Click to expand...

i think this depends a lot on how you approach your work. as one of my preceptors said to me once "are you going to act and think like a tech? or are you going to be more than that?" our work can have life and death medical importance. furthermore we have a lot of power over our patients' quality of life and level of handicap.
 
oddballstar said:
your chart was very nice shows exactly the hole.. no one has talked about it here so this confirms that the group lack financial appetite!! i feel sorry for this community as a whole... someone even says getting into HBS is not possible... I know for a fact that tehre are 5 MD,s and 8 PhD in the current class and most of the MDs are on a dual program MD/MBA etc...

well atleast i thought of an exit plan.... thank lord..
Click to expand...

What I got from that chart is that there is not a whole of difference btw AuD and MBA, and that MD's are making way more than most. That's great if you want to be an MD but I don't.

I don't consider my career (or my life) as a waste because I'm not getting rich.

Your posts continue to astonish me. Apparently you think that you are here to save people from a horrible fate that they would otherwise be unable to, A-know that they were in or, B-decide to get out. You've decided to pity and judge around 10,000 people in this country who've chosen a life you don't want. You seriously need to examine your motives and your opinion of yourself.

Others on this forum have chosen to intelligently and seriously discuss the issues at hand. You're basically here to trashtalk and assert your superiority. You are pretty much the definition of a troll.

I'm really curious what you value other than making money.

I'm also curious what you learned about our healthcare system or professionalism during your degree. I'd really like to see your bedside manner. Also do you plan on working with other healthcare professionals once you're a physician? Or do you plan on learning every profession, specialty, and procedure yourself because you apprently have no respect for anything other than medical doctors? Unless that's your plan you'll need to work on getting along with other professions. And other people.
 
:thumbup:

Amen. Yeah, the consistent griping about a first world problem of only earning roughly 125% of the national average household income is kinda played out now.

cidanu said:
What I got from that chart is that there is not a whole of difference btw AuD and MBA, and that MD's are making way more than most. That's great if you want to be an MD but I don't.

I don't consider my career (or my life) as a waste because I'm not getting rich.

Your posts continue to astonish me. Apparently you think that you are here to save people from a horrible fate that they would otherwise be unable to, A-know that they were in or, B-decide to get out. You've decided to pity and judge around 10,000 people in this country who've chosen a life you don't want. You seriously need to examine your motives and your opinion of yourself.

Others on this forum have chosen to intelligently and seriously discuss the issues at hand. You're basically here to trashtalk and assert your superiority. You are pretty much the definition of a troll.

I'm really curious what you value other than making money.

I'm also curious what you learned about our healthcare system or professionalism during your degree. I'd really like to see your bedside manner. Also do you plan on working with other healthcare professionals once you're a physician? Or do you plan on learning every profession, specialty, and procedure yourself because you apprently have no respect for anything other than medical doctors? Unless that's your plan you'll need to work on getting along with other professions. And other people.
Click to expand...
 
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oddballstar said:
Kudos to your story marktheword... your chart was very nice shows exactly the hole.. no one has talked about it here so this confirms that the group lack financial appetite!! i feel sorry for this community as a whole... someone even says getting into HBS is not possible... I know for a fact that tehre are 5 MD,s and 8 PhD in the current class and most of the MDs are on a dual program MD/MBA etc...

well atleast i thought of an exit plan.... thank lord..
Click to expand...

It confirms nothing, I can make you a nice graph as well. Second, why are you still talking? Your jibber jabber is nonsensical, and if you had any knowledge of the field or even any business sense you would know how to make money, if that is your agenda. What exactly is your agenda and you "exit plan"?

Quiteaud please quit your program now, because we don't need colleagues like you being a detriment to the field. You may be a good tech, and that is the only good thing you will be. It does seem that you have gained no knowledge from your "top program". We don't need to sit and push buttons, you can hire a tech to do that, but we do need to know how to interpret that data that has been collected and put it all together. Apparently they haven't taught you that in your "top program". I'm still waiting for the reference on the 40% of students that considered quitting.
 
It's actually 44%. The reference is:

Bennett, H.N. & Steiger, J.R. (2010). Au.D. student attitudes toward the profession. Audiology Today, 22, 6 (53-63).


See table 9 on page 58.
 
Cidanu, I expected someone to say something about being more than a technician. I get what you're saying, but I really feel like audiology requires way less thinking than other health professions out there, aside from health tech professions... Yes, I would agree we're more than that, though.

I just find audiology in generally to be not-so-challenging. I know a lot of people in other graduate programs both in health fields and in other unrelated fields. They have a heck of a lot more work to do than we. They seem to go into much more depth with their studies. It seems like we are really having to stretch audiology into a doctorate. A master's would have been sufficient.

ETA: Thanks, CBA! I couldn't remember where I had read that.
 
TXAUD said:
I agree with your assertion that most Optometry students/professionals have a Science background and that it seems about 50% of incoming Audiology students do not (though that is a debate for another time because nowadays one does not necessarily have to have a Science Undergraduate degree in order to be accepted into Medical school much less Optometry school, they need to have specific Math and Science courses), but I strongly disagree with your rhetoric regarding the lack of parallels between the fields. In fact, Optometry used to focus solely on "glasses" sales (some private practices still only do that type of work), working out of Pharmacies, and bore its origins in treatment programs rather than preventive programs. What they did was expand their scope of practice and have molded their profession to be where they wanted it to be, just as Audiologists must do. I can tell you with 100% certainty that Ophthalmologists DID NOT want to give up their "medical"/prescription rights to Optometrists. The problem is that in order to be an "expert" in a field as specific as even the eye, Ophthalmologists do not have the time or the inclination to do basic eye evaluations- they are looking for problems that require surgery not “minor” ailments of the eye. Obviously an Otolaryngologist focuses on the ears, nose, and throat (and to some extent the neck)- quite a broad spectrum to be an expert in all 3 areas but certainly larger than what Ophthalmologists focus on. It is for this reason that Audiologists, for as long as the profession is around, will have most of their work in basic hearing evaluations and day to day ear care which should include the treatment of minor ear infections through whatever means best suits the patient (including but not limited to medication). There is no doubt that ENT's will fight tooth and nail to keep Audiologists from prescribing, but it is no different than the Ophthalmologists fighting Optometrists some years back. I do not know what program you attended, but my program incorporates pharmacology lectures into our Clinical Audiology course. There is only one way to learn something and that begins with the classroom and ends in practicum. Have Audiologists always practiced Ceruman management? Is that duty specifically outlined in our scope of practice? The answer to both of these rhetorical questions is no, but that has not stopped Audiologists from doing this type of treatment nor should it.

The problem that I see with many of your arguments (and I am paraphrasing) reads something similar to "that's how it's always been done so that is the only way." Optometrists have beginnings similar to where Audiology currently is but again, they have molded their profession to be in a place that they want it to be. I do not and will not accept the fact that just because Audiologists do not currently have the ability to prescribe medication does that mean we should not be able to nor will it ever be out of the realm of possibility. Perhaps I am hedging a failing bet, but I can assure you that many of my classmates feel the way that I do and I can also assure you that I will do everything in my power to advocate for the Audiology profession in this regard.

So again yes, I agree that the Optometry profession is light years ahead of us and thus have more experience with medication, but from the base of their origins to where they’re currently at, there has been a steady progression and advancement of their field; they have not always been where they currently are. When comparing them to Audiologists that is what I was examining- the progression and continued advancement to an ultimate goal.
Click to expand...

Just curious - so are you advocating a backdoor way of becoming a physician? Why not attend or apply to medical school and become an ENT since it already has the scope of practice you're interested in?
It seems to me the people who typically want reform (in optometry, audiology or whatever mid-level provider field) are those that are unhappy with their current profession and reform through legislation is the easiest way to "advance" their careers.
 
CBA300 said:
It's actually 44%. The reference is:

Bennett, H.N. & Steiger, J.R. (2010). Au.D. student attitudes toward the profession. Audiology Today, 22, 6 (53-63).


See table 9 on page 58.
Click to expand...

Wow this thread seems to be full of life... like it...
can you post the entire writeup for the above paper? I dont have access to that website... :smuggrin:
 
SufjanS said:
I almost burst out laughing when I read this in class :laugh:
Click to expand...


I dont understand what is there to laugh? this is serious discussion with several people highlighting the pitfalls of this trade.. I was seriously considering aud but i am scared and will run away.
i never thought the situation was this bad... churn rate of 45%? my goodness
i supposed many are truly living in denial.....

reading this forum has send shivers down my spine...
:scared::scared::scared::scared::scared::scared::scared::scared:
 
It is really, really, really, really, really freaking hard to become an ENT. One does not just walk into med school and become an ENT.

If want to get paid more, either become more primary-care-like and lobby for prescription rights, or get more into surgery (and add on a 2-3 years residency) and become Otological Surgeons, similar to the Chiropods.

Nothing good comes without change, eh?
 
Kancofused said:
I dont understand what is there to laugh? this is serious discussion with several people highlighting the pitfalls of this trade.. I was seriously considering aud but i am scared and will run away.
i never thought the situation was this bad... churn rate of 45%? my goodness
i supposed many are truly living in denial.....

reading this forum has send shivers down my spine...
:scared::scared::scared::scared::scared::scared::scared::scared:
Click to expand...
If you had as much passion for your profession as you do for starting new forum accounts and trolling, audiology would probably be more rewarding for you.
 
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