Advice for Step 2

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carbonMD

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Hi, I'm an MD/PhD student and will be starting clerkships in January. The way my schedule works out, I will have to take Step 2 before the end of my last 2 clerkships. I'm planning my rotation schedule now and would like to know which 2 clerkships are the ones that I can do without/study on my own for Step 2?

Obvious clerkships that came to mind are Psych and Ob/Gyn, but I was wondering what people who have gone through the process/are going through the process think.

Thanks for your help!
 
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This is a BAD IDEA. The last person I knew who didn't take a rotation before taking step 2 scored not so well on step 2 and did not match since his score came out in time to be reported to residency programs. Step 2 borrows HEAVILY on clerkship and shelf exam material (which are basically mini-step 2 exams). Not taking 2 rotations before taking step 2 sets you up for the possibility of not passing, which would kill your chances at residency entirely.

DO NOT DO THIS. I do not know how much more strongly I can emphasize it. This is the equivalent of taking step 1 half way through your second year. It's a terrible idea. To directly answer your question, both psych and OB/GYN are crucial for step 2 IMO. All of the core clerkships are.
 
This is a BAD IDEA. The last person I knew who didn't take a rotation before taking step 2 scored not so well on step 2 and did not match since his score came out in time to be reported to residency programs. Step 2 borrows HEAVILY on clerkship and shelf exam material (which are basically mini-step 2 exams). Not taking 2 rotations before taking step 2 sets you up for the possibility of not passing, which would kill your chances at residency entirely.

DO NOT DO THIS. I do not know how much more strongly I can emphasize it. This is the equivalent of taking step 1 half way through your second year. It's a terrible idea. To directly answer your question, both psych and OB/GYN are crucial for step 2 IMO. All of the core clerkships are.
Agree. OP, those are probably the two most heavily tested specialties on Step 2 after IM. You should definitely not take Step 2 without them.

What are the required third year rotations at your school (both names of rotations and time spent on each)? We'd be able to give you better advice on how to plan your schedule if we knew that info.
 
This is a BAD IDEA. The last person I knew who didn't take a rotation before taking step 2 scored not so well on step 2 and did not match since his score came out in time to be reported to residency programs. Step 2 borrows HEAVILY on clerkship and shelf exam material (which are basically mini-step 2 exams). Not taking 2 rotations before taking step 2 sets you up for the possibility of not passing, which would kill your chances at residency entirely.

DO NOT DO THIS. I do not know how much more strongly I can emphasize it. This is the equivalent of taking step 1 half way through your second year. It's a terrible idea. To directly answer your question, both psych and OB/GYN are crucial for step 2 IMO. All of the core clerkships are.

Agree. OP, those are probably the two most heavily tested specialties on Step 2 after IM. You should definitely not take Step 2 without them.

What are the required third year rotations at your school (both names of rotations and time spent on each)? We'd be able to give you better advice on how to plan your schedule if we knew that info.

Thanks for your replies, Neuronix and QofQ. I don't have much of a choice in the matter since I'm required to take step 2 in my graduation year.
 
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Take step 2 as late as possible (not sure of exact timing of that) so programs don't have it to rank you with. I'd say of the ones you listed the least useful would be surgical subspecialties. From there it's really hard to choose because they're all useful. Surprisingly OB/GYN is one of the most useful because the information is fairly esoteric and you won't learn it any other way.

I think your program is really setting students up for possible failure this way IMO. They're either allowing you to come back to clerkships too late or requiring you to take step 2 too soon.
 
Take step 2 as late as possible (not sure of exact timing of that) so programs don't have it to rank you with. I'd say of the ones you listed the least useful would be surgical subspecialties. From there it's really hard to choose because they're all useful. Surprisingly OB/GYN is one of the most useful because the information is fairly esoteric and you won't learn it any other way.

How long does it usually take for programs to get the step 2 score? Is is possible to know when programs finalize their rank list? I'm going to talk to my med school dean to see if I can delay step 2 but I'm not holding my breath.

I think your program is really setting students up for possible failure this way IMO. They're either allowing you to come back to clerkships too late or requiring you to take step 2 too soon.

I agree. The amount of disjointedness and lack of communication between the medical school and the MD/PhD program itself is unbelievable.
 
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Take step 2 as late as possible (not sure of exact timing of that) so programs don't have it to rank you with.
Well, now, hold on a second. We don't know how the OP did on Step 1, nor which specialty s/he is applying to. My advice on Step 2 timing would be different based on those factors. Of course, in this case, there's the issue of not being able to complete all rotations before the end of this third year, and that complicates things.

I think your program is really setting students up for possible failure this way IMO. They're either allowing you to come back to clerkships too late or requiring you to take step 2 too soon.
OP, I agree with Neuro that your school is really setting you up for failure. Besides making it harder for you to do well on Step 2, when would you be doing your sub-Is and/or away rotations? If you don't finish third year until December of your fourth year, you won't have time to do any such rotations before you start interviewing. That's not a good scenario either, because you need letters of recommendation from your sub-Is, and you may need to do at least one away as well depending on what rotations your school offers and whether there is a residency program there in your specialty.

Is there any way that you could start your rotations in the spring or summer instead of in January and just graduate a year later? You're probably chomping at the bit to finish ASAP, but I really think you should look into the possibility of postponing your graduation by a year. Residency apps (and possibly Step 2 scores, depending on your Step 1 score and specialty choice) are just too important to your career to be having such a clusterf*** of a rotation schedule.

Thanks for your replies, Neuronix and QofQ. I don't have much of a choice in the matter since I'm required to take step 2 fairly early in my graduation year.

Since you can't do the subspecialties as a block, I suggest doing primary care last. You should have plenty of IM experience as a basis for the general info, and you can study things like vaccination schedules on your own. I would put neuro as the second to last. It's an important subject, but again, you can study a lot of it on your own, and some schools don't even require a neuro rotation anyway. I'm assuming that you can't delay graduation for a year when giving this advice, because I still think that's the best option.

How long does it usually take for programs to get the step 2 score? Is is possible to know when programs finalize their rank list? I'm going to talk to my med school dean to see if I can delay step 2 but I'm not holding my breath.
Scores come back a few weeks after you take the test. I think it was three weeks or thereabouts. But even if your school allows you to have an extension for Step 2, it might not be a good idea to do it. Again, depending on your specialty and Step 1 score, you might need an early Step 2 score to help strengthen your app. Plus, in certain specialties, some programs won't rank you unless you have a Step 2 score prior to them making the rank list. Apparently this requirement is becoming more common, at least according to the Student Dean at my med school.

I agree. The amount of disjointedness and lack of communication between the medical school and the MD/PhD program itself is unbelievable. Compounding that problem is that I'm part of the hybrid/unlucky group of mudphuds that started out medical school under the old curriculum and going back under the new curriculum, where the clinical year and rotations are apparently stretched out over a longer period of time. After the hybrid mudphuds phase out, it won't be so much a problem since mudphuds starting in the new curriculum do a few rotations before starting in lab.
I really think that you have a good argument for why you should be allowed to graduate a year later, or at least in the following December instead of in May. What a mess. It really sucks that you are in this situation.
 
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I got absolutely screwed on my sub-I in several ways and did not get a LOR from it. If you can get enough recommendations from other third year and fourth year rotations you may not need a sub-I when applying. This is specialty dependent. Many of my successful MD/PhD buddies applied just fine without a sub-I until after the match. Though, a sub-I in your intended field can sometimes convince you that your chosen field is not at all right for you. Reapplying out of internship really sucks for a lot of reasons. So that said, Carbon do you know where your LORs are going to come from? Do you have time for elective rotations and/or aways?

The vast majority of programs and specialties do not require a step 2 score from applicants. I can't envision a scenario where I would recommend this person take step 2 in time for rank lists. They'd be missing many rotations before taking step 2. There is almost no way the person would be able to score well enough to not shoot themselves in the foot. For the two specialties I considered, the advice is that step 2 can only hurt you. I scored extremely high on step 2 and I don't think it helped me at all given my average for the specialty step 1 score.

But a lot of this hinges on a specialty choice. So Carbon what specialty are you applying for? I mean a year off isn't necessarily a bad idea to get your affairs in order. I took a 10 month leave of absence from the program for this reason. Grad school held me too long despite careful planning and tons of data, so I couldn't finish what I needed to finish when I returned to med school in the time allotted. But I know not everyone can do that. Still, I'm really worried you do not have the time you need to make yourself competitive for residency applications.

I agree. The amount of disjointedness and lack of communication between the medical school and the MD/PhD program itself is unbelievable.

Also compounding the problem is a surge in medical school graduates. This is compared to the number of residency positions, which is barely growing. This discrepancy is increasing the competition and requirements for residency positions. I wrote a paper about this problem including data, and I submitted it to Academic Medicine (the AAMC's journal) where it was rejected without a review. Some PDs continue to bury their heads in the sand about this problem and MD/PhDs continue to not match.

I hope people will spread the word so they can avoid carbonMD's scenario.
 
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Thanks for your thoughtful replies!

Well, now, hold on a second. We don't know how the OP did on Step 1, nor which specialty s/he is applying to. My advice on Step 2 timing would be different based on those factors.

But a lot of this hinges on a specialty choice. So Carbon what specialty are you applying for?

My best a priori guess is either IM or Neuro (since my PhD is in neuro), unless some rotation drastically changes my mind. When planning out my schedule with my dean, we built a sub-I month into my schedule that will allow me to get an LOR in time for residency applications. So I'm not so worried about getting a sub-I in, although I don't know if I will be able to do an away sub-I.

Is there any way that you could start your rotations in the spring or summer instead of in January and just graduate a year later? You're probably chomping at the bit to finish ASAP, but I really think you should look into the possibility of postponing your graduation by a year. Residency apps (and possibly Step 2 scores, depending on your Step 1 score and specialty choice) are just too important to your career to be having such a clusterf*** of a rotation schedule.

I mean a year off isn't necessarily a bad idea to get your affairs in order. I took a 10 month leave of absence from the program for this reason. Grad school held me too long despite careful planning and tons of data, so I couldn't finish what I needed to finish when I returned to med school in the time allotted. But I know not everyone can do that. Still, I'm really worried you do not have the time you need to make yourself competitive for residency applications.

I see your points and I've thought about that myself. Ultimately, I decided to aim for a May graduation because I felt like I didn't want to delay my life even more (esp. with my old med school friends already being residents and fellows)...but I hadn't thought about the step 2 complication. It's a tough decision because on the one hand, I really want to get on with my life, but on the other hand, I don't want to have a weak residency application or come to regret my choice of specialty. As it is, I will only have time for 4 major rotations (and surgical subs) before I have to decide which specialty I want, do a sub-I in that field, and then apply for residency. My schedule is going to be really tight (and stressful). I might have to go back and re-think this....

Also compounding the problem is a surge in medical school graduates. This is compared to the number of residency positions, which is barely growing. This discrepancy is increasing the competition and requirements for residency positions. I wrote a paper about this problem including data, and I submitted it to Academic Medicine (the AAMC's journal) where it was rejected without a review. Some PDs continue to bury their heads in the sand about this problem and MD/PhDs continue to not match. I hope people will spread the word so they can avoid carbonMD's scenario.

What is tipping the balance and creating this surge?
 
I see your points and I've thought about that myself. Ultimately, I decided to aim for a May graduation because I felt like I didn't want to delay my life even more (esp. with my old med school friends already being residents and fellows)...but I hadn't thought about the step 2 complication. It's a tough decision because on the one hand, I really want to get on with my life, but on the other hand, I don't want to have a weak residency application or come to regret my choice of specialty. As it is, I will only have time for 4 major rotations (and surgical subs) before I have to decide which specialty I want, do a sub-I in that field, and then apply for residency. My schedule is going to be really tight (and stressful). I might have to go back and re-think this....
Definitely go back and rethink this. You'll be practicing medicine for 30+ years, but you only get one shot to do well on Step 2, and one shot to apply for residency as a sponsored candidate. And definitely check into what your top choice programs' expectations are for Step 2 in terms of whether scores are needed for ranking. Because at least in my specialty, sometimes they are.
 
What is tipping the balance and creating this surge?

The number of medical students is growing rapidly, while residency positions are not growing. This makes all residency programs more competitive.

And definitely check into what your top choice programs' expectations are for Step 2 in terms of whether scores are needed for ranking. Because at least in my specialty, sometimes they are.

Frankly, your specialty is possibly the most interested in step 2 scores Q. I don't think this is a problem for the vast majority of IM and Neuro programs. I took step 2 so I could be considered at UCSF (the only school that requires it to rank) and scored very high on step 2, then didn't even get an interview at UCSF. Across most specialties step 1 is the main factor and step 2 is an afterthought.

Also, the op requested that I close this thread. I think it has run its course. I'd like to prevent deleting it because I think this information is extremely useful for more junior students who are often put in the same scenario.

PS: Please do not PM the OP of this thread to ask what school they are at. MD/PhD posters sincerely value their anonymity. I am not anonymous, but I am the rare exception. Believe it or not, there is tremendous push-back in the real world against my advice to you, and I would not want any other users to experience that.
 
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