Got a pre-match offer, but not from top choice, should I call my top choices?

blahwhatever · Dec 20, 2011

Hello,

I got a pre-match offer from a hospital that is not one of my top choices, and it's not a top choice simply based on the location (too far from home than I was hoping). I'm not sure if I will accept this position yet.

Is calling my top programs to let them know I've got a pre-match offer, and to ask them what my chances are at their hospital a good idea? How should I approach the conversation?

adagio · Dec 20, 2011

Do that. but if your desired hospital simply says we will rank you high, just take the permatch you have. Unless that hospital commits with you by a prematch, dont waste your chance ... best of luck

jdh71 · Dec 20, 2011

blahwhatever said:
Hello,

I got a pre-match offer from a hospital that is not one of my top choices, and it's not a top choice simply based on the location (too far from home than I was hoping). I'm not sure if I will accept this position yet.

Is calling my top programs to let them know I've got a pre-match offer, and to ask them what my chances are at their hospital a good idea? How should I approach the conversation?

I don't think it's a good idea. Either throw in with the match or don't. But don't do this call other places game. They'll be like, "Kid, we've got 10 people applying for every spot here, we're not worried, take your pre-match or don't, but if we were offering, we would have"

adagio · Dec 20, 2011

but if we were offering, we would have

true, but they may be sending prematches later in january, and have him as a desired one, in that case they could send him the offer now. so calling would not hurt, would it?

jdh71 · Dec 20, 2011

adagio said:
true, but they may be sending prematches later in january, and have him as a desired one, in that case they could send him the offer now. so calling would not hurt, would it?

Could drastically backfire

If I were a PD, and I'm not, if someone I invited to interview called me and told me they were given a pre-match offer, I'd tell them that sound great, and then cross them off my list. It looks like to much of a game. Either play like everyone else, or don't, but don't try and have your cake and eat it too.

adagio · Dec 20, 2011

then i am mistaken. you definitely know better than I do.

I thought if I explained to the PD how much I prefer to match in his program, but considering how tough the match predictability is, and should prematches be something his program entertain (if and only if that was the case) would he consider offering me one.

is it rude?

adagio · Dec 20, 2011

I must add that I was never put into such situation (demanding actively a prematch this way)

So please do not experiment based on my blasphemy 😛

gutonc · Dec 20, 2011

jdh71 said:
Could drastically backfire

If I were a PD, and I'm not, if someone I invited to interview called me and told me they were given a pre-match offer, I'd tell them that sound great, and then cross them off my list.

Fair enough but then, no harm no foul. Aside from looking like a total douche to programs he really likes, I don't think the OP stands to lose much with this approach.

Either play like everyone else, or don't, but don't try and have your cake and eat it too.

But then there's this excellent point. So the OP needs to decide whether s/he would be OK with that pre-match spot if the favored program responds with "OMGLOLWTFBBQ Are you serious?!" If the answer to that question is yes, then, go nuts with this plan. If the answer is no, throw in with the Match and see what happens.

residencysearch · Dec 21, 2011

what's a prematch? are these ACGME programs? AOA? limited to IMGs/independent applicants only?

jdh71 · Dec 21, 2011

residencysearch said:
what's a prematch? are these ACGME programs? AOA? limited to IMGs/independent applicants only?

only allopathic 4th year students HAVE TO go through the NRMP, and for good reason anyone not in that cohort can take an offer at any time. Though as I understand it those rules are changing and in the next few years, you will only be able to go through the match - everyone..

ROBINHO · Dec 21, 2011

jdh71 said:
Could drastically backfire

If I were a PD, and I'm not, if someone I invited to interview called me and told me they were given a pre-match offer, I'd tell them that sound great, and then cross them off my list. It looks like to much of a game. Either play like everyone else, or don't, but don't try and have your cake and eat it too.

S(he) has nothing to lose.
If the other programs dont give a reasonable feedback...(s)he still has the pre match to take.
And on the other hand...(s)he might be lucky,unlikely though,as (s)he could stampede one of the top choices to prematch him/her

ROBINHO · Dec 21, 2011

I guess it depends on how may interviews one has got. With three interviews or four...I will try that for sure. With some 10-12 definitely no...especially if I dont like the prematch program

adagio · Dec 21, 2011

Usually, how prematches are assessed:

If you are offered a prematch from your top 4 choices, dont hesitate, and take it (you may or may not try asking the first 3 programs, but lots of the seniors here are suggesting that you DONT)

desijigga · Dec 21, 2011

adagio said:
Usually, how prematches are assessed:

If you are offered a prematch from your top 4 choices, dont hesitate, and take it (you may or may not try asking the first 3 programs, but lots of the seniors here are suggesting that you DONT)

Depends on the diff between your top choices and the rest. If your top choices are miles ahead in your preference than the next ones, ya hold out for the match. But if your top choices are more interchangeable, you won't mind being at any of your top 4-5 programs. And the pre-match offer is from any of em, I think taking it would be a good idea. Saves you from falling victim to the randomness of the match...

Agree with JDH, don't call the other programs. Makes you come off as a pompus jacka**..

blahwhatever · Dec 21, 2011

ROBINHO said:
I guess it depends on how may interviews one has got. With three interviews or four...I will try that for sure. With some 10-12 definitely no...especially if I dont like the prematch program

I should've mentioned this. I got 14 MD interviews after applying to 28 MD residency programs. But I believe that some of these places are reaches for me, being a DO/not having any research/not being THAT great at interviewing.

adagio · Dec 21, 2011

Let us know how you will tackle this. I am curious to see what you will choose 🙂

blahwhatever · Dec 21, 2011

adagio said:
Let us know how you will tackle this. I am curious to see what you will choose 🙂

The reason I asked the question initially was because I was going back and forth in my head about the exact disagreement that happened here.

After sleeping on it I think I'm about 90% sure that I will not accept the pre-match, so I decided not to call the other programs to "negotiate", fearing that they will assume that I had already matched somewhere and not bother ranking me.

I feel a bit like I'm being greedy by not accepting an opportunity. I hope karma doesn't get its last laugh by me going unmatched in March. Then I will really be kicking myself.

Anyway, thanks for all your input! =)

adagio · Dec 21, 2011

I feel a bit like I'm being greedy by not accepting an opportunity. I hope karma doesn't get its last laugh by me going unmatched in March. Then I will really be kicking myself.

No ... you are not greedy ... you worked hard to get to this point ... you are not (begging) for a position ... the program would be fortunate to have you within its ranks, as much as you are fortunate to have a good niche that will nurture you ...

You need to get the best out of your situation: negotiating when you KNOW that you have some leverage (getting an offer from an excellent program for instance). IMHO, there is nothing wrong about it, be polite and say you like the program, but you also realize how unpredictable the match process could be, and you want to play it safe.

Should the program (hate you) for (liking them) and being honest about it, it might not be the perfect place for you!!

The rules give you and the program (until this moment, as its the last year as JDH elucditaed) so you are not breaking any rules: the rule for DOs and IMGs simply allows for prematches to be offered, this is why i explicitly asked you: does your preferred programs OFFER prematches usually?

If the program says: no, we are against the policy of prematches to make it a fair game, then of course, you never ask for it, but if the program does give out prematches, then i think what jdh and gutonc said do not apply here. IF and only IF the program is indeed sending premaches to other people.

Best of luck in your decision

gutonc · Dec 21, 2011

blahwhatever said:
After sleeping on it I think I'm about 90% sure that I will not accept the pre-match, so I decided not to call the other programs to "negotiate", fearing that they will assume that I had already matched somewhere and not bother ranking me.

I feel a bit like I'm being greedy by not accepting an opportunity. I hope karma doesn't get its last laugh by me going unmatched in March. Then I will really be kicking myself.

And this is why getting rid of the pre-match will be overall beneficial because you won't have to deal with this BS.

adagio · Dec 21, 2011

And this is why getting rid of the pre-match will be overall beneficial because you won't have to deal with this BS.

Gutonc, you must understand that for DOs and IMGs, negotiating prematches is not (cheating). The rules were built this way!!

ECFMG allow IMG for instance to take the USMLEs (1, 2 and CS) in any order they wish!! is that considered cheating?

The rules here are different. I understand though why you are appalled by the notion of prematch, but you shouldnt be.

gutonc · Dec 21, 2011

adagio said:
Gutonc, you must understand that for DOs and IMGs, negotiating prematches is not (cheating). The rules were built this way!!

ECFMG allow IMG for instance to take the USMLEs (1, 2 and CS) in any order they wish!! is that considered cheating?

The rules here are different. I understand though why you are appalled by the notion of prematch, but you shouldnt be.

I am well aware of the rules and I don't think any of it is cheating, stop putting words in my mouth.

I'm not appalled by the idea of a pre-match. I'm appalled by the way that many (primarily crappy) programs abuse it to basically bully borderline candidates into accepting crappy positions. You know all those people bi**hing about getting fired in the "Programs who terminate residents" thread? Dollars to donuts those are disproportionately IMGs who pre-matched.

adagio · Dec 21, 2011

stop putting words in my mouth

I apologize if I insinuated this, It was not my intention at all

I'm appalled by the way that many (primarily crappy) programs abuse it to basically bully borderline candidates into accepting crappy positions.

This is true in general. however, some excellent university programs only takes the IMGs (4-5 out of 30 residents for instance) out of the match, reason being selecting exactly who hey want, and starting the visa paperwork early (visa is a nightmare for programs when it comes to IMGs). they never rank these 5 imgs, and offer them positions early.

You know all those people bi**hing about getting fired in the "Programs who terminate residents" thread? Dollars to donuts those are disproportionately IMGs who pre-matched.

lol dollars to donuts. lovely expression

Again, I apologize if I unintentionally manipulated your words.

ROBINHO · Dec 21, 2011

blahwhatever said:
I should've mentioned this. I got 14 MD interviews after applying to 28 MD residency programs. But I believe that some of these places are reaches for me, being a DO/not having any research/not being THAT great at interviewing.

I would have approached it this way.
1. 14 is a solid number from an (IMG point of view). Is this program in my top 4.....if yes...I will grab it and run hard. If not I will let it pass.
2. It depends on how u are interviewing too. Go with your guts. If u doing well...then wait for the match. If u arent sure...and think u probably coming out of the interviews feeling terrible...then grab it and run again

insidor · Dec 21, 2011

A program that offers a prematch is doing so "for a reason" (risk of not filling, risk of not getting top applicants) so if they offer you one, they are doing so to either ensure they fill, or to eliminate a lower-ranked applicant from getting there.

If you ask a program if they give prematches, it can be insulting to a program: One of the applicants for our IM program told us she had 3 prematch offers and wanted a prematch from us, or to wanted to be told she was sure she would "get a spot". Obviously, we could not do either...

You will shoot yourself in the foot with these places, and likely will not match there, if you decided NOT to do the prematch elsewhere, and tell them you have one

adagio · Dec 21, 2011

I respectfully disagree.

U of Cincinnati, U of Pittsburgh, Temple, Mayo Clinic, U of Minnesota, Cleveland Clinic, U of Arizona, Kansas U, George Washington U, Indiana U, even Case etc

All of these programs gives prematches for IMGs they want! Surely, those programs do not risk not filling their spots. There is another possibility that the IMG is indeed a strong applicant, and they would like to take her/him because they would be a good addition to the program AND they could start the visa process early (a headache for many IMGs).

I would not consider matching in any of the previously mentioned programs a bad thing (and there are others, I just mentioned those where I know a limited number of prematches (4-5) are given each year for top notch IMGs)

adagio · Dec 21, 2011

she had 3 prematch offers and wanted a prematch from us, or to wanted to be told she was sure she would "get a spot".

This is a rude applicant; this is not the way to gently ask for a position. the way i would phrase it: I got a prematch position from one of my top programs (Surely they understand I have other top choices!), and was wondering if your program would offer spots out of the match, should the program be interested in recruiting me. period.

I cannot tell the program (I want a sure thing), that would be rude, I just ask about that possibility, and clarify why I am asking this question.

jdh71 · Dec 21, 2011

insidor said:
A program that offers a prematch is doing so "for a reason" (risk of not filling, risk of not getting top applicants) so if they offer you one, they are doing so to either ensure they fill, or to eliminate a lower-ranked applicant from getting there.

This just isn't true. High quality applicants who can be offered a pre-match sometimes do get an offer, if the program really thinks they would be a good fit.

adagio · Dec 21, 2011

Its very much dependant on the program's philosophy, to clear any doubt, go to NRMP 2010 report, check what was the match quota, and then go to FREIDA and see how many PGY2 they have (to eliminate prelims if you will).

you will be surprised of how many excellent programs offer prematches

adagio · Dec 21, 2011

they would be a good fit.

This is a core issue!! I stand corrected. Its not how much the applicant is strong, its how much of a (good fit) they would be in the program.

insidor · Dec 22, 2011

jdh71 said:
This just isn't true. High quality applicants who can be offered a pre-match sometimes do get an offer, if the program really thinks they would be a good fit.

Exactly what I alluded to. Sorry, didn't word it exactly the right way. There are generally two reasons for a program to do a pre-match:

1) They are a program with a risk of not filling, or not "doing well in the match" and they want to ensure a fill by grasping a top DO/IMG before they go elsewhere, or getting a top applicant they ordinarily wouldn't

2) They are a great program that takes top IMGs or even DOs, but wants to ensure they get a good one to weed out a lower-ranked one that they would potentially get through the match.

Either way, regardless of the OP's stats/background, it is sorta of bad etiquette to call programs to ask if they offer prematches - if they did, and considered the applicant a top choice, they would have offered already

BTW - the programs you mentioned (U of Cincinnati, U of Pittsburgh, Temple, Mayo Clinic, U of Minnesota, Cleveland Clinic, U of Arizona, Kansas U, George Washington U, Indiana U) - without going into details - at least 4 are the exact programs that need to get top IMGS/DOs by prematch as to not get burnt by getting lower ranked ones (as they have in the past). Some of the others get great IMGs, so they can prematch others early on to enure they get the top.

Got a pre-match offer, but not from top choice, should I call my top choices?

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