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Delta2037 said:
I attended school in the US but I'm an international student so my options are limited (NIH MTSP is not an option).
I know that I do not want a full time research career. At best, it would be 20/80-mostly clinical. I don't want the hassle of writing grants/running of a lab. If given a choice between MD or PhD, hands down MD for me.
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You are given the choice right now - you can apply either MD or MD/PhD. There is no indication that you want to do what MD/PhD is all about, so I don't see a reason why you would even be considering MD/PhD.
 
Because you are an international student, MD/PhD would be very difficult to get into. Schools just don't have much money, outside of federal grants, to support MD/PhD students. It is not impossible but it is harder than it would be if you were a US citizen.

That said, given your lack of desire to run a lab, you would be a very poor candidate for the MD/PhD. The goal is to select people who will be thrilled to be in lab 80% time and in clinic 20% time. You want the opposite split so you would be unhappy with the career path laid out for MD/PhD grads and the program that chooses you would be unhappy if you go down the 80% clinical path and waste a training slot meant for someone who was going to make research their career.

Go MD only. Put all your eggs in the MCAT basket and apply to the top research schools-- they love students who want to have an MD with 20% research time in an academic setting. Everything else in your dossier checks out as making you a strong candidate for such a school and all you need now is an MCAT that is in the neighborhood of 518+.
 
A little old, but still relevant ... read "The Clinical investigator: bewitched, bothered, and bewildered -- but still beloved" by JL Goldstein (should be viewable to public on pubmed)..
 
LizzyM said:
Because you are an international student, MD/PhD would be very difficult to get into. Schools just don't have much money, outside of federal grants, to support MD/PhD students. It is not impossible but it is harder than it would be if you were a US citizen.

That said, given your lack of desire to run a lab, you would be a very poor candidate for the MD/PhD. The goal is to select people who will be thrilled to be in lab 80% time and in clinic 20% time. You want the opposite split so you would be unhappy with the career path laid out for MD/PhD grads and the program that chooses you would be unhappy if you go down the 80% clinical path and waste a training slot meant for someone who was going to make research their career.

Go MD only. Put all your eggs in the MCAT basket and apply to the top research schools-- they love students who want to have an MD with 20% research time in an academic setting. Everything else in your dossier checks out as making you a strong candidate for such a school and all you need now is an MCAT that is in the neighborhood of 518+.
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Is your appraisal of 518+ in relation to wanting to get into a top research school MD only as an international student, or just getting into an MD school as an international student. I know it's harder in general for international students but how much harder, really?
 
Halcyon32 said:
Is your appraisal of 518+ in relation to wanting to get into a top research school MD only as an international student, or just getting into an MD school as an international student. I know it's harder in general for international students but how much harder, really?
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I have no idea. When we review international students at my school, their citizenship plays no role in the decision. It would for MD/PhD because the question comes up "how will the student be supported?" because tuition and a stipend is provided to every MD/PhD student and the source of most of that money is federal funds for research that can't be passed along to international students.
 
LizzyM said:
I have no idea. When we review international students at my school, their citizenship plays no role in the decision. It would for MD/PhD because the question comes up "how will the student be supported?" because tuition and a stipend is provided to every MD/PhD student and the source of most of that money is federal funds for research that can't be passed along to international students.
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Is the approach at your school shared by other schools?
 
Goro said:
Then the MD/PhD path is outright foolish
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Okay to be clear, I do really like research and perhaps in med school, I might even change my mind (my PI is also an MD, as are many of the PIs in the dept) but I think my biggest concern more than anything is the fact that Im an international and the spots are far more limited. As of right now, I don't want to run a lab (and almost MD PhD students Ive talked to) don't want to run their own lab and aim at doing the 80 lab/20 clinical model without being a PI. I'm thinking, if I really do want to make research a main focus, I could always transfer into an MD PhD program after the 2nd year if the schools permits...
 
As to the bold...no, just, no.

If you wanna do research, there's no need for the PhD part. Just do a research fellowship after residency.

Delta2037 said:
Okay to be clear, I do really like research and perhaps in med school, I might even change my mind (my PI is also an MD, as are many of the PIs in the dept) but I think my biggest concern more than anything is the fact that Im an international and the spots are far more limited. As of right now, I don't want to run a lab (and almost MD PhD students Ive talked to) don't want to run their own lab and aim at doing the 80 lab/20 clinical model without being a PI. I'm thinking, if I really do want to make research a main focus, I could always transfer into an MD PhD program after the 2nd year if the schools permits...
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Yeah you still really don't need the PhD at all in your situation.

Edit: After further reading, it does appear you are eligible to apply to at least some of the MD/PhD programs because you did your coursework in the States. But, you'd still not be able to be put on the MSTP training grant. Some programs still provide the same level of support (so tuition and stipend) to foreign MD/PhD'ers, but you'd be very expensive to any program that would possibly take you so I suspect there's very few of these spots available.
 
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Some MSTPs are more welcoming to international students... on top of my head: Emory, Penn, Columbia

These programs would fund you fully
 
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I'd really recommend the '97 paper from Journal of Clinical Investigation that I listed above. It's a really good read for those considering the MD-PhD path. Also, check out the "Physician Scientist" forum on SDN. You will get responses from MD-PhD applicants/ students/ program directors that you might find useful. You can also look for old posts from international applicants on there.

Edit: you seem very intelligent and to have a lot of research potential... so I think it would be a shame if you don't further consider a research-intensive track! best of luck!
 
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Bottom line: Even if you did want to be a PI and have a full research career, MD/PhD without full funding is not worth it. My opinion. You would be losing loads of money and time for training you can likewise receive after you earn your MD if you really wanted it.

It's true lots of MD/PhD grads don't end up being PIs at the end of it and many go full clinical but that's not the goal of the program and in my experience has more to do with the current research ecosystem more than it does with individuals not wanting to do science.
 
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