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No one here is going to give you a helpful answer. I recommend you do your own personal research (you might have heard of google before) and don’t have this doom and gloom echo chamber speak for you.
I would disagree with you. There is a lot of pessimism on this forum, but there is a reason. The pharmacist market has changed dramatically. If the OP understands the market and accepts it as well as what its like being a pharmacist, then by all means go right ahead to pharmacy school.
OP your status says pre med, something change?
No one here is going to give you a helpful answer. I recommend you do your own personal research (you might have heard of google before) and don’t have this doom and gloom echo chamber speak for you.
I just am worried that if I apply and go to pharm school, that I may not have good job security or pay later.
No one here is going to give you a helpful answer. I recommend you do your own personal research (you might have heard of google before) and don’t have this doom and gloom echo chamber speak for you.
Short answer "no".Hey everyone,
I am thinking of starting to prepare for a career in pharmacy.
However, it seems that the job market for new grads is not the best.
With the poor predicted job growth, is it even worth it to apply?
I just am worried that if I apply and go to pharm school, that I may not have good job security or pay later.
What do you all think?
No one here is going to give you a helpful answer. I recommend you do your own personal research (you might have heard of google before) and don’t have this doom and gloom echo chamber speak for you.
The reality of coming out of grad school with 200k+ in loans at 7% interest and no job lined up is certainly something to be echoed. In my area the retail giants aren’t even hiring.
You’re ignorant & stupid to ignore these warnings.
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Do many students come out at 200K tho?
I spoken to some, but many of my group of friends came out no loans or Well under 100K
Average loan burden for my school was about 150k last I checked. An established state school in a low cost of living area with fairly low tuition. I think the kicker is most people have to finance their living expenses.Do many students come out at 200K tho?
I spoken to some, but many of my group of friends came out no loans or Well under 100K
It depends on where you live or where you will want to live.Care to elaborate, offer personal anecdotes?
We have two main pharmacy school buy me - the half that go to the private school all have over 200k with a sizeable percentage over 300k. Those that go to the public school have an average of 100-125kDo many students come out at 200K tho?
I spoken to some, but many of my group of friends came out no loans or Well under 100K
Well under 100k? Which school and what is the actual tuition?
I’m on mobile so I can’t see the date this study was published but iirc it’s 2012 (correct me if I’m wrong), you can extrapolate tuition estimates based on their results... over the past 8 years tuition had increased on average 54% including both public and private schools. If you’re applying now and just getting started... it ain’t gunna go well for you in pharmacy.
Pharmacy Student Debt and Return on Investment of a Pharmacy Education
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It depends on where you live or where you will want to live.
I'm in Las Vegas, P1. My pharmacist said that he graduated in 2015 and had to float for 9 months before having his own store, that it's super saturated now here. One of P3 students, who will graduate next month, said CVS is not hiring. She's still looking for a job. Another got hired at Walgreens, and they guarantee 24hrs/w and he has to work in Utah one day a month.
I wish I know more stories from class of 2018. I wish school has a survey for class of 2017 about who got a job and who's still unemployment.
My school tuition is $160k for 3 years, rent here is $500/room.
We have two main pharmacy school buy me - the half that go to the private school all have over 200k with a sizeable percentage over 300k. Those that go to the public school have an average of 100-125k
Yikes!!! I'd assume you can work part time and make good money to pay bills there in school
Just do compsci man! The pharmacy job market is as risky as it can get, and highly likely it will go even worse, much like law.
For people who advocates "differentiation", plz elaborate how, if not going outside of the pharmacy domain?!
Residency nowdays won't guarantee anything. What's the way of "differentiating" yourself? PGY-3?
For people who advocates "differentiation", plz elaborate how, if not going outside of the pharmacy domain?!
Just do compsci man! The pharmacy job market is as risky as it can get, and highly likely it will go even worse, much like law.
For people who advocates "differentiation", plz elaborate how, if not going outside of the pharmacy domain?!
Residency nowdays won't guarantee anything. What's the way of "differentiating" yourself? PGY-3?
Differentiate means that there is no one script that everyone can follow to be successful. There are a lot of different things that someone can have or do to differentiate themselves from others. Some of those things have a better chance of a good return on invest, but all have risks. Nothing in life is a guarantee (and all "guarantees" wont last forever).
Here's an incomplete list of ways pharmacists can differentiate themselves from each other (in no particular order):
interpersonal skills
dual degree programs
residency
fellowship
research experience
certification
MBA, MPH, Mwhatever
leadership positions
management experience
entrepreneurship skills
desire to do rural health / work with underserved populations
IT skills
I don't advocate for anyone to go into pharmacy unless they want to be a pharmacist, and unless they recognize the challenges that the profession faces. Hopeful pharmacists that think that just having a pharmd will guarantee them a good paying job for 40 years as long as they just maintain their license have a tough reality to face. In order to stay relevant to the profession and in order to ensure my employability, i have to continually find innovative ways to move the profession forward while advancing my own personal growth. Otherwise, i will be left behind by those who do. This is probably true for any profession, and the sooner folks realize this, the less disappointed they will be when a job isnt handed to them on a silver platter just because they checked off all the boxes they were "supposed" to check off.
Had a thought
For those of us on the forum who were pharmacists during the pharmacist shortage, what made you choose your workplace? Just like most of us cannot go without work, the pharmacies could not go without staff.
well i do agree with u on persistent self-evolution. but from the list u provided, other than residency, pretty much everything else goes outside of the pharmacy domain.
I agree it's outside some of the more mainstream or common domains of pharmacy (i.e. retail or hospital staffing roles), but some of these things are still within the domain of pharmacy, depending on how you define it. If we define pharmacy domain solely based on whether the job is limited to licensed pharmacists only, I agree that a pharmacist license isn't an essential or legal requirement for many of these things (although some of these fields still require some kind of clinical licensure, even if it isn't specific to pharmacy). If we define the domain as anything in which a pharmacist's education adds value / provides a good foundation for additional training, then my list makes more sense. Being a pharmacist translates well to certain business ventures (e.g., owning your own pharmacy, climbing up the corporate pharmacy ladder, starting a consulting business), certain research, policy, and admin areas (e.g., drug safety/risk mitigation, formulary management, pharmacoeconomics), public health activities (e.g., drug supply integrity, national drug stockpile maintenance [which in some cases actually does require a pharmacist license], pharmacovigilance).
To your point, I will emphasize to other pre-pharmers who may be reading this, I would not recommend pursuing a pharmacy degree for the specific goal of primarily doing work that does not require a pharmacist license. If you want to primarily do non-clinical research, or non-clinical administration or business, or non-clinical anything, then avoid pharmacy school. Save yourself the time and money, and get a non-clinical degree (if any degree at all is necessary for what you actually want to do). Pursue a pharmacy degree because you want to be a pharmacist first, i.e. do clinical work that requires a pharmacist license (and I do consider retail to be clinical). Then think of ways that you can progressively take on more responsibility doing clinical work, and/or how you can diversify your skill and take your pharmacist experience outside of the common domains of pharmacy. You can start exploring these different pharmacist pathways and start getting the experience and connections you need while still in school (e.g., engage with pharmacy organizations, volunteer as a research assistant, get a pharmacy intern job, set-up unique APPE rotations for your electives, get as many diverse experiences and network with as many different pharmacists as you can).
Honestly, one really easy way for pharmacy students to differentiate themselves is to show up and show some engagement. I am much more likely to support a student's professional development (i.e. put more effort into helping them get a job) if they show genuine enthusiasm towards being a pharmacist. A student who recognizes the challenges of our work, and is able to articulate thoughtful ideas on how to tackle those challenges, is already several steps ahead of many students I've interacted with. (I probably should have added "maturity" to my list.)
Wow, that's some quite detailed explanation. Thanks!
I understand that the whole purpose of self-evolution or "differentiation" is for long-term career growth 3-5 years after graduation, you made it sound easy, but to be honest, a lot of worth-mentioning hardcore skills (outside of mainstream pharmacy) take months and mostly like years to develop, so students have to realize this urgency super early while in school and develop concrete road maps themselves to guide the evolution. It's quite hard. First, the direction of "differentiation" has to be suitable, if the market demand isn't there, or the field is too niche, the return on time investment might be too low or too risky, so probably it isn't worth to begin. Second, it will undoubtedly take extraordinary effort to develop a required skill set, making it so much harder for full-time students or grads. Speaking of myself, I am pretty much doing a DIY CS + X degree path right now while in school, and that X is obviously pharmacy. It's very time-consuming and certainly takes a lot of sacrifices to develop a skill outside your comfort zone, like outside of domain you learn in school. From what I see, most profs and schools are very deliberate in terms of painting the rosy picture of the pharmacy career prospect and instilling that idea into their students, making it even harder for most students to take the extraordinary step and stick with it. Third, a lot of fields you mentioned above tend to fall into the category of "requiring experience to get more experience" type of career track. I am not saying they are impossible to break into, but a direct entry seems quite difficult to me.
Why differentiate yourself to get a job where you will still be treated like something you scrape of the bottom of your shoe. You are flogging a dead horse if you think you will still get a job with respect and you’ll still get the same pay packet as the ones who don’t differentiate themselves. A bit like have a go on a space hopper, not much advancement for the amount of effort you put in.
Why differentiate yourself to get a job where you will still be treated like something you scrape of the bottom of your shoe. You are flogging a dead horse if you think you will still get a job with respect and you’ll still get the same pay packet as the ones who don’t differentiate themselves. A bit like have a go on a space hopper, not much advancement for the amount of effort you put in.
You cannot differentiate yourself in retail you are just a cog in the machine. The chains would rather hire a new graduate with 200k in debt that will work for 80k-90k than an A+ pharmacist who wants 120k+. Retail is a dream for employers because you know that new graduates, especially if they were interns in your computer, can easily starting working with little downtime. CVS or Wags do not have to worry about teaching new graduates how to do their jobs.
That salary will never happen, i mean we are PharmD right? not a BS degree
DPTs make 80k, fyi.That salary will never happen, i mean we are PharmD right? not a BS degree
You can come up with x1000 graphs, diagram etc
but have you seen anyone being offered with $80k salary full-time status?
Some hospitals in some regions are starting to offer < $40/hour which puts you at around $80k.
A doctorate does jack to protect your job security when anyone with a < 2.5 GPA and single digit PCAT who qualities for $200k+ in student loans can get into pharmacy school.
DPTs make 80k, fyi.
Correct, with a couple of qualifications: 80-90K/yr seems to be the average salary for DPTs with between 5 and 10 years of experience. Travel PTs easily get above 6-fig, but that lifestyle is not for everyone. However, I think the stress level at work is fairly low for most PTs, except for those in "patient mills" who are routinely double- or triple-booked. I am a DPT and have at least half-a-dozen cousins who are pharmacists, and we often talk about work and salaries (we're very open) at family get-togethers.
DPTs make 80k, fyi.
The average pharmacist's debt is >150k nowadays. My cousin is taking out $360k to go to school on the West coast. He'll take the best job he can get, and he's not alone in that sentiment. This would be OK if we were supply constrained, but we're not; supply is on pace to overtake demand. Big corps love to take advantage of that. We're already seeing downward pressure on wages and hours for new grads, and displacement for veterans.
The great pharmacists will always have a place somewhere and will do well, but it's like driving - most people assume they're better than average. Better to go to a field with better prospects, on average.
Edit: debt statistics are public for those wondering, found here