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aodnejoch

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it is based on the US News ranking based on research which is updated each year, with the current, most recent being 2019. The list and more specific clarifications of the criteria/methodology for ranking can be found on the US News website
 
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shakenramie said:
I'm slightly confused as to what a T20 school is. I understand that this means "Top 20" (?) - however, what is this based on? Is there an actual list of the top 20 schools? More specifically, what schools does this term refer to? I see "T20" a lot on this website but I don't think I've seen a list of schools that T20 actually refers to. However, maybe I haven't looked hard enough.


Some clarification would be appreciated! Thanks 🙂
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There are a few different lists you can look at but no consensus. For example, the US News has a list. Also you can look at the AAMC MSAR and sort by GPA or MCAT to get a rough idea on which schools are the most competitive.
 
Ivies, Duke, Stanford, MIT, WashU, Hopkins, Caltech, UChicago, NW, and Williams are all pretty much universally included, and then people add others in too. There’s no clear cut definition and it’s more on an individual basis. There are schools I haven’t listed here that are of the same caliber but maybe not as well known from a healthcare standpoint (Carnegie Mellon comes to mind, among many others). There’s also a lot of really strong public schools like Michigan, UVA, UCLA, Cal, etc that people include too.

TLDR don’t worry too much about it
 
WedgeDawg said:
Ivies, Duke, Stanford, MIT, WashU, Hopkins, Caltech, UChicago, NW, and Williams are all pretty much universally included, and then people add others in too. There’s no clear cut definition and it’s more on an individual basis. There are schools I haven’t listed here that are of the same caliber but maybe not as well known from a healthcare standpoint (Carnegie Mellon comes to mind, among many others). There’s also a lot of really strong public schools like Michigan, UVA, UCLA, Cal, etc that people include too.

TLDR don’t worry too much about it
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I thought OP is asking about medical schools.
 
As humans we’re hard wired to rank ****. We even rank the worst movies of all time. In terms of opportunity, top 20s generally provide the same as a “regular tier school”.
 
Dagrimsta1 said:
As humans we’re hard wired to rank ****. We even rank the worst movies of all time. In terms of opportunity, top 20s generally provide the same as a “regular tier school”.
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I don't like using the term tiers. I prefer using classes, like US Navy battleships and cruisers
 
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RNtoMD87 said:
Goes to show the American school system is a failure (that more than x schools are in the top x schools). Even school administrators can’t count. It’s bad.
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It's more like free market is working vs some govt entity deciding. Also, ranks are based on different criteria. US News has two lists Research and Primary Care.
 
srk2021 said:
It's more like free market is working vs some govt entity deciding. Also, ranks are based on different criteria. US News has two lists Research and Primary Care.
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What do you mean free market is working? What does that have to do with there being 20 top 10 schools?
 
RNtoMD87 said:
Goes to show the American school system is a failure (that more than x schools are in the top x schools). Even school administrators can’t count. It’s bad.
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RNtoMD87 said:
What do you mean free market is working? What does that have to do with there being 20 top 10 schools?
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I think maybe you took Goro a little too literally? On any given list of the “Top 10” or “20”, there are not more than 10 or 20 schools listed, respectively. It was more of a statement/joke about how different people’s/groups’ lists will have a different make-up of schools (or in other words, there is not, nor will ever be, a consensus of the “true” top 20 schools).
 
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I once saw a list on MSNBC that had “top 10 American Universities” and there were 15, so that’s why I said that, lol.
 
MacBee said:
I think maybe you took Goro a little too literally? On any given list of the “Top 10” or “20”, there are not more than 10 or 20 schools listed, respectively. It was more of a statement/joke about how different people’s/groups’ lists will have a different make-up of schools (or in other words, there is not, nor will ever be, a consensus of the “true” top 20 schools).
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It can be literal too. There are currently 6 colleges listed as the top 3 on US News

LToVhyZ.png
 
efle said:
It can be literal too. There are currently 6 colleges listed as the top 3 on US News

LToVhyZ.png
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That list is not their “Top 3” colleges. That list is their “Top 6” colleges, 4 of which are tied in their methodology’s scores.

EDIT: As another poster mentioned, US News counts their lists inclusive of ties. So the number of schools in their “Top Whatever” is never more than the literal number of schools, regardless of what number the rankings actually ends at. Other sites/companies may do otherwise, though, as someone else mentioned. I was just thinking of US News in my original post, and didn’t consider others. (My bad.)
 
Dagrimsta1 said:
As humans we’re hard-wired to rank ****. We even rank the worst movies of all time. In terms of opportunity, top 20s generally provide the same as a “regular tier school”.
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But is it really the same caliber of opportunity offered? I assumed people attend Harvard and the sort because of the "weight" that name carries when applying for residencies and the connections they would make. If not why would they go there? Pure vanity at the cost of debt? (Assuming you're not one of those that graduate with 0 debt.) Kinda interested in the answer because...
1) My roommate is currently juggling a T20 acceptance but cannot give me a solid answer about why he would go there over in-state UF which he also has an acceptance for
2) I keep coming across the term "fit" in these forums when making choices about where to go. I just feel like as long as I am not freezing my ass off in like Alaska or in the middle of North Dakota where I would be the -only- black person in a 10-mile radius, I would be fine. Obviously, not everyone is as flexible but I'm still curious.
 
SleazySalesMed said:
But is it really the same caliber of opportunity offered? I assumed people attend Harvard and the sort because of the "weight" that name carries when applying for residencies and the connections they would make. If not why would they go there? Pure vanity at the cost of debt? (Assuming you're not one of those that graduate with 0 debt.) Kinda interested in the answer because...
1) My roommate is currently juggling a T20 acceptance but cannot give me a solid answer about why he would go there over in-state UF which he also has an acceptance for
2) I keep coming across the term "fit" in these forums when making choices about where to go. I just feel like as long as I am not freezing my ass off in like Alaska or in the middle of North Dakota where I would be the -only- black person in a 10-mile radius, I would be fine. Obviously, not everyone is as flexible but I'm still curious.
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The very short and incomplete answer is that yes it does matter and its obvious to anyone that people in the T5 (pick your favorite arbitrary granular cutoff, you know what I mean; even the T20 are different from just the T5, etc) are matching very differently compared to others.

the extent to which ranking (and which ranking in particular, at that) matters depends on your individual goals. Do you want to become a physician-scientist who does genetics research? Then going to a medical school with the highest possible combination of A) strength, funding, and reputation in genetics research and B) opportunities to obtain mentorship from / network with accomplished physician scientists will be important. Do you want to have an academic career? The ability to be at a place where you have more resources, opportunities, and mentorship to set yourself up for that career will be important. Do you not want any of those things at all? Doesn't matter as much.

I have 2 friends IRL who are pretty good examples for this:

Friend 1 was accepted to a T5 and given a full-ride to a then unranked school in TX. They have no interest in research or academics whatsoever and they didnt want to be in debt if they didnt have to. They want to practice medicine, probably in private practice. They took the full ride, no regrets, easy choice.

Friend 2 was given almost exactly the same options. Went to the T5. Research heavy background. Extremely ambitious. Wants to be a leader in academic medicine. Went to the T5 and took on the load of debt med students typically take on in lieu of taking none at all. Also no regrets and also an easy choice.

That said...no door will close for you simply by attending a medical school outside the T20. The doors that are open or closed for you in medicine will be more determined by you than anything else. Going to a "top" school can make things a lot easier for you because of resources, connections, opportunities, and, yes, prestige. For most, the only ranking that should matter is the residency director ranking IMO.
 
Lucca said:
For most, the only ranking that should matter is the residency director ranking IMO.
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I did not even know this was a thing... Thank you. I apply next cycle (finally, feeling old) so I'm just trying to get all my ducks in a row while working my ass off doing 60+ hr work weeks. There seems to be a new variable I was missing prior every time I surf this forum.

Lucca said:
Friend 1 was accepted to a T5 and given a full-ride to a then unranked school in TX. They have no interest in research or academics whatsoever and they didnt want to be in debt if they didnt have to. They want to practice medicine, probably in private practice. They took the full ride, no regrets, easy choice.
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I would fall into this category~ Don't want either of those things, likely will go into management and consulting. (Starting to look into MD/MBAs)
 
Thank you! I found 2 very similar lists with some interesting numbers that I, at this point in time, don't fully comprehend ranking them. I already saved them all into spreadsheets that I will go over tomorrow in the office. Suprised to see that there are DO schools on the list. Not that they do not belong, of course. So many rankings are M.D centered, so I rarely see it.
 
SleazySalesMed said:
Thank you! I found 2 very similar lists with some interesting numbers that I, at this point in time, don't fully comprehend ranking them. I already saved them all into spreadsheets that I will go over tomorrow in the office. Suprised to see that there are DO schools on the list. Not that they do not belong, of course. So many rankings are M.D centered, so I rarely see it.
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If you'd like it in .xls, start a DM with me (click my name then click start a conversation)
 
efle said:
If you're curious how schools shake out sorted by residency director rating (the actual scores are behind a paywall):

LCesguq.png
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Interesting. Where did you find this list?
 
MyOdyssey said:
Interesting. Where did you find this list?
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It's a part of the US News ranking algorithm, they send a survey to PDs every year. They also have a "peer scores" rating, which comes from a survey of the med schools themselves, asking them to score each other. Very similar results there:

5tAF2OJ.png
 
Lucca said:
The very short and incomplete answer is that yes it does matter and its obvious to anyone that people in the T5 (pick your favorite arbitrary granular cutoff, you know what I mean; even the T20 are different from just the T5, etc) are matching very differently compared to others.

the extent to which ranking (and which ranking in particular, at that) matters depends on your individual goals. Do you want to become a physician-scientist who does genetics research? Then going to a medical school with the highest possible combination of A) strength, funding, and reputation in genetics research and B) opportunities to obtain mentorship from / network with accomplished physician scientists will be important. Do you want to have an academic career? The ability to be at a place where you have more resources, opportunities, and mentorship to set yourself up for that career will be important. Do you not want any of those things at all? Doesn't matter as much.

I have 2 friends IRL who are pretty good examples for this:

Friend 1 was accepted to a T5 and given a full-ride to a then unranked school in TX. They have no interest in research or academics whatsoever and they didnt want to be in debt if they didnt have to. They want to practice medicine, probably in private practice. They took the full ride, no regrets, easy choice.

Friend 2 was given almost exactly the same options. Went to the T5. Research heavy background. Extremely ambitious. Wants to be a leader in academic medicine. Went to the T5 and took on the load of debt med students typically take on in lieu of taking none at all. Also no regrets and also an easy choice.

That said...no door will close for you simply by attending a medical school outside the T20. The doors that are open or closed for you in medicine will be more determined by you than anything else. Going to a "top" school can make things a lot easier for you because of resources, connections, opportunities, and, yes, prestige. For most, the only ranking that should matter is the residency director ranking IMO.
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With more and more doctors going for jobs instead of private practices, will it help to go to top school? My spouse did her training at top 10 program and was able to get the job of her choice.
 
efle said:
If you're curious how schools shake out sorted by residency director rating (the actual scores are behind a paywall):
Click to expand...
Interesting that WSU is on the list, given that they have yet to graduate a class.
Also interesting, aside from one PR school, the bottom ranked MD school is, wait for it.....CNU!
 
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