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--Gem said:
After speaking with one of my mentors, they mentioned doing a post sophomore fellowship like this one here:

Post-Sophomore Fellowship with a Masters of Science in Pathology

medicine.utah.edu medicine.utah.edu

Essentially, get paid peanuts for 9-12 months and act as a first year pathology resident after M2/M3. Some programs, like Pittsburgh, require 3+ months of pathology research on top of this. She got into some pretty impressive residency/fellowship spots after med school and said she really loved doing it, but I can't see any other reason to do it.

Is there really any utility in doing this, especially if you're not pursuing an MD/ PhD?
Will it be useful if you decide to pursue a different specialty?
Why is this only a thing for pathology?
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I did one but no, it isn't necessary in any way. You don't need it to get into good path residencies if you're a solid US graduate. You'll learn all you need in residency; the extra year during med school won't make a difference. It does give you a better idea of what pathology truly entails, but so will a good rotation during your clinical years. But when you think about that extra year at minimal salary compared to graduating residency a year earlier and earning an additional year of attending salary, I can't recommend it.
 
Agree with above comments.
No need to do a post-soph year if you know for sure you want to become a pathologist.

if your numbers are even average at any US school and you have a genuine interest you will be competitive for top tier programs. Also plenty of time to learn pathology during your residency.
 
I once was a young med student aspiring to be a pathologist. I did research in a dermpath dept full time. They offered me the job for $15,000 a year.

the guy I worked with who is quite well known in dermpath circles now treated me like his personal slave. He really needed to get this project published because it would be a landmark study which he would base all future papers off of.

Once he knew I was looking for other jobs, they bumped up the salary to 30,000 lol. Doing research sucks. $30,000 per year is considered very good for someone in my position who just needed a research job.

this is why I mentioned what I did. Academics who truly do research and publish a lot are looking for the next bright eyed young medical students to be their personal slave.
 
--Gem said:
Bummer, did you at least get authorship on any of those?
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yes I did. The thing about the guy was the way he had treated me. I wasn’t being paid directly from his account but he treated me like I was. I felt like I was his slave. The dermpath fellow at the time called me his b;tch. Pardon my French
 
Massive waste of time. Finish med school in 4 yrs and get on to the next chapter.
 
For the life of me I don't understand who came up with this and why it was thought to be a good idea. Does it take a year to figure out if you want to be a pathologist? And if you do it, how does it help you?
 
It’s basically the same mindset as the academics who say pathology has a robust job market. Sometimes I wonder what some of these academics are smoking? I definitely want a hit. Whatever it is, it ain’t making them think right.

when you have an academic tell you the job market is robust or hey why don’t you do a psf you seem interested in pathology!!!!

My answer to that would be “wtf are you talking about? I just want to slap you upside the head for starting a psf. I want to slap anyone who does a psf two times upside the head for wasting a year.“

Academics are out of touch. Have you ever seen any other field where you can take one year off to get more exposure to a field so that you can decide if it’s right for you lollllllllllllllllll!!!!!!!!

have u ever heard of a derm or orthopedic psf? lmao
 
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Creating Pathologists From a Post-Sophomore Pathology Fellowship: 21 Years and 126 Fellows at an Academic Pathology Department
Alexandra L Isaacson et al. Acad Pathol. 2019
Show details
Full-text linksCite
Abstract
Medical student exposure to pathology is a continued concern for departments across the country as traditional pathology content is trimmed from medical school curricula. In a longstanding effort to recruit and expose more medical students to the practice of pathology, our institution has supported a year-long post-sophomore fellowship in pathology since the 1930s. The program employs 6 full-time medical students per year to function as junior residents, taking an active role in delivering surgical pathology and autopsy services, with additional opportunities for teaching, research, and electives. We evaluated residency specialty choices and current practice locations for our department's former post-sophomore fellows (PSFs) who participated in the program from 1995 to 2016. We surveyed them about their reasons for pursuing the post-sophomore fellowship and the program's effect on their clinical practice. From 1995 to 2016, our department employed 126 PSFs, 54 (43%) of whom pursued careers in pathology after completion of the post-sophomore fellowship. This represented 63% of our medical school's graduates who matched into pathology during this time frame (1997-2018; 86 total). Thirteen former PSFs (32.5%) have held academic faculty positions in pathology. PSFs who chose another specialty affirmed the positive influence of the fellowship on their current practice. Our post-sophomore fellowship program is exceptional in the number of students participating each year, and our institution shows a higher percentage of former PSFs pursuing careers in pathology compared to similar studies. The post-sophomore fellowship is an effective tool for recruiting medical students to a career in pathology.

LOL!!!!!

We want to create a psf to recruit more medical students into pathology.

Only 54/126 of those who did a psf pursued pathology over a 21 year timeframe. LMAOOOO!!!!!

that means 72 wasted a year and did something else but at least they had a nice thing to say about how pathology had “a positive influence” on their practice. LMAO.

This is your typical academic garbage. Just like That publication concluding a strong robust job market when the number of practices surveyed was underrepresented ....man this is hilarious! Good night everyone!
 
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Unty said:
Creating Pathologists From a Post-Sophomore Pathology Fellowship: 21 Years and 126 Fellows at an Academic Pathology Department
Alexandra L Isaacson et al. Acad Pathol. 2019
Show details
Full-text linksCite
Abstract
Medical student exposure to pathology is a continued concern for departments across the country as traditional pathology content is trimmed from medical school curricula. In a longstanding effort to recruit and expose more medical students to the practice of pathology, our institution has supported a year-long post-sophomore fellowship in pathology since the 1930s. The program employs 6 full-time medical students per year to function as junior residents, taking an active role in delivering surgical pathology and autopsy services, with additional opportunities for teaching, research, and electives. We evaluated residency specialty choices and current practice locations for our department's former post-sophomore fellows (PSFs) who participated in the program from 1995 to 2016. We surveyed them about their reasons for pursuing the post-sophomore fellowship and the program's effect on their clinical practice. From 1995 to 2016, our department employed 126 PSFs, 54 (43%) of whom pursued careers in pathology after completion of the post-sophomore fellowship. This represented 63% of our medical school's graduates who matched into pathology during this time frame (1997-2018; 86 total). Thirteen former PSFs (32.5%) have held academic faculty positions in pathology. PSFs who chose another specialty affirmed the positive influence of the fellowship on their current practice. Our post-sophomore fellowship program is exceptional in the number of students participating each year, and our institution shows a higher percentage of former PSFs pursuing careers in pathology compared to similar studies. The post-sophomore fellowship is an effective tool for recruiting medical students to a career in pathology.

LOL!!!!!

We want to create a psf to recruit more medical students into pathology.

Only 54/126 of those who did a psf pursued pathology over a 21 year timeframe. LMAOOOO!!!!!

that means 72 wasted a year and did something else but at least they had a nice thing to say about how pathology had “a positive influence” on their practice. LMAO.

This is your typical academic garbage. Just like That publication concluding a strong robust job market when the number of practices surveyed was underrepresented ....man this is hilarious! Good night everyone!
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and it cost them one year off their peak earning years.


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CDX-2 said:
What if they were to pay PSFs the same salary as a 1st year resident?
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That extra year of questionable worth means you will have (for example) 32 years as an attending rather than 33. Don’t you think your remuneration will be a little bigger then.


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Unty said:
It’s basically the same mindset as the academics who say pathology has a robust job market. Sometimes I wonder what some of these academics are smoking? I definitely want a hit. Whatever it is, it ain’t making them think right.

when you have an academic tell you the job market is robust or hey why don’t you do a psf you seem interested in pathology!!!!

My answer to that would be “wtf are you talking about? I just want to slap you upside the head for starting a psf. I want to slap anyone who does a psf two times upside the head for wasting a year.“

Academics are out of touch. Have you ever seen any other field where you can take one year off to get more exposure to a field so that you can decide if it’s right for you lollllllllllllllllll!!!!!!!!

have u ever heard of a derm or orthopedic psf? lmao
Click to expand...
They are talking their book
 
Most of the PSF from my residency were pretty smart kids. They spent this year doing research and other sh#t which eventually helped them get to specialties like combined vascular surgery and derm. Worth investing a year, right? Also can catch your breath after 3rd year and spend some extra time preparing for USMLE CK.
 
Iceman24 said:
Most of the PSF from my residency were pretty smart kids. They spent this year doing research and other sh#t which eventually helped them get to specialties like combined vascular surgery and derm. Worth investing a year, right? Also can catch your breath after 3rd year and spend some extra time preparing for USMLE CK.
Click to expand...

Sounds great. But who the hell wants to be a vascular surgeon ALWAYS taking care the worst protoplasm or a dermatologist seeing acne ALL THE TIME and doing elliptical skin excisions my corpsmen did?


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Iceman24 said:
Most of the PSF from my residency were pretty smart kids. They spent this year doing research and other sh#t which eventually helped them get to specialties like combined vascular surgery and derm. Worth investing a year, right? Also can catch your breath after 3rd year and spend some extra time preparing for USMLE CK.
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I don’t care how smart you are. Doing a year of pathology and applying to vascular surgery or derm? Lol, that’s hilarious.

The people who I know who wanted derm did a year of derm research doing clinical trial stuff. You know relevant stuff to derm not spending a year grossing colons or looking at GI biopsies. How dumb can you be to want to do derm but do a pathology psf In hopes you land a derm spot?

Man if you are smart enough you don’t need a year to study for step 2 ck. Another lol at that comment.

Combined vascular surgery/derm? You mean a combined program? Never heard of that. Is it a 10 year program lol.

You have a better chance of landing a spot by actually doing vascular or derm research in a vascular surgery dept or derm dept and kiss major major asssssss!!!!! Get with the program bro!
 
Unty said:
No don’t waste your time. Go the regular route and don’t waste a year being a minion to some academic who wants papers out of you!!!!
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From what I've seen in my own program, >90% of the PSFs didn't go into pathology but instead went into other super competitive specialities that they might not have been otherwise competitive for. Ironically, it's only helpful as a resume builder for competitive programs. So bottom line, if you want a super competitive specialty but won't be able to get there on what you already have (i.e. STEP 1 score, research, connections, etc.), this could put you in the ballpark.

Otherwise, to get into pathology, a solid command of the English language and a pulse will do just fine.
 
Alteran said:
From what I've seen in my own program, >90% of the PSFs didn't go into pathology but instead went into other super competitive specialities that they might not have been otherwise competitive for. Ironically, it's only helpful as a resume builder for competitive programs. So bottom line, if you want a super competitive specialty but won't be able to get there on what you already have (i.e. STEP 1 score, research, connections, etc.), this could put you in the ballpark.

Otherwise, to get into pathology, a solid command of the English language and a pulse will do just fine.
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Lol I don’t see any role a psf in pathology can help you get into derm or orthopedic surgery. That’s comical really. I do see how one year of clinical research in derm in a major derm department can help get you in.

“So you have a great step 1 score, awesome derm research, major connections...I don’t think we would’ve taken you unless you had done a psf in pathology”. That’s hilarious.

Connections are key to getting into competitive residencies just like in any walk of life.
 
I did one of these and went into derm. I liked path but pretty much knew I was going into derm when I did it, but have found it very helpful in my residency. Imo, it makes sense for people interested in dermatology or other specialties outside path with a lot of CPC because it gives you more insight into how the pathologist thinks (my co-psf also went into a different competitive specialty). Plus for people interested in derm, you can work with the DP folks who are often under the umbrella of the pathology department, although this would obviously be program specific. It's also an opportunity to do research and actually get paid for it instead of having to take out more loans to finance yourself for that year depending on your financial situation. Finally, from my experience, the path residents I worked with during my PSF who had done a PSF themselves were way ahead of the curve compared to the other first year residents, but probably nothing that everyone else didn't ultimately catch up to.

My understanding was that doing a PSF used to reduce the number of years of actual path residency, but that's not longer the case.
 
--Gem said:
If those specialties often require/desire a research year, I can understand the reward if you use this as a substitute.
If STEP 2 replaces STEP 1 and this gives more time to prepare, then I can see why these have some utility for people gunning for more competitive specialties (personally not planning on it). But what do I know?



People who want to make a lot of money?
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i sure as did, without one.


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Maybe they can do a loan forgiveness program for AP / CP, like they do for some family medicine positions?

If graduates had minimal / no debt, maybe they'd be more willing to apply for pathology.

The increased competition would lead to higher candidate calibre.
 
Mohsaic said:
I did one of these and went into derm. I liked path but pretty much knew I was going into derm when I did it, but have found it very helpful in my residency. Imo, it makes sense for people interested in dermatology or other specialties outside path with a lot of CPC because it gives you more insight into how the pathologist thinks (my co-psf also went into a different competitive specialty). Plus for people interested in derm, you can work with the DP folks who are often under the umbrella of the pathology department, although this would obviously be program specific. It's also an opportunity to do research and actually get paid for it instead of having to take out more loans to finance yourself for that year depending on your financial situation. Finally, from my experience, the path residents I worked with during my PSF who had done a PSF themselves were way ahead of the curve compared to the other first year residents, but probably nothing that everyone else didn't ultimately catch up to.

My understanding was that doing a PSF used to reduce the number of years of actual path residency, but that's not longer the case.
Click to expand...

If I wanted derm I would’ve just did as many dermpath rotations as possible with rotations in clinical derm as well during the month ( instead of wasting a whole year).
 
Unty said:
If I wanted derm I would’ve just did as many dermpath rotations as possible with rotations in clinical derm as well during the month ( instead of wasting a whole year).
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And the logic for that is sound if your academic accolades are competitive with the cohort applying that year. But the PSFs I've seen would never have been competitive for these kinds of specialties irrespective of how many rotations in whatever specialty they were trying to get into. In fact, some of these competitive departments have a fire wall for medical students. One guy in my med school class was either trying to get into derm or ortho (I honestly don't remember which) and all the places he was trying to rotate through said given his STEP 1 score he stood no chance at ever getting in there so they weren't going to waste their time and a spot with him rotating through there on an elective. Yet I saw a very underwhelming PSF from my department all of a sudden become very competitive for derm and managed to secure a spot a few years ago. And one year, in the grand scheme of things, is nothing if it means getting into a specialty where your salaried PAs make more than the average pathologist.

Personally, my whole problem with the PSF situation is the same that I have with pathology in general. We do great things with real benefits for everyone except ourselves as pathologists. Its the most bizarre thing.
 
Unty said:
I don’t care how smart you are. Doing a year of pathology and applying to vascular surgery or derm? Lol, that’s hilarious.
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It was my response to people who are saying that doing a PSF is a waste of time. If a medical student invested this year and got into competitive highly paid specialty he wouldn't be able to match otherwise why one call it waste of time then?

Unty said:
The people who I know who wanted derm did a year of derm research doing clinical trial stuff. You know relevant stuff to derm not spending a year grossing colons or looking at GI biopsies. How dumb can you be to want to do derm but do a pathology psf In hopes you land a derm spot?
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I agree with the argument that most of the people did a year of clinical research however if someone decided to do PSF and it worked how you can call this person dumb? Who are you to judge people like that?

You also clearly have no clue about the structure of PSF. For instance, the way it is designed in my program is as such, that they are trying to tailor ones schedule according to the residency of interest. So the way it is happening is one can spend 6 months doing research or 4 months looking at the cases with dermatopathologist or whatever. And you may only "gross colons" for a few weeks during this year. It is a buyers market and students dictate the administration how they would like to spend this year so it will be the most beneficial for their career. Otherwise these spots will be unfilled and ivory coast towers dwellers wouldn't be able to say that path is popular among the med students.

Unty said:
Man if you are smart enough you don’t need a year to study for step 2 ck. Another lol at that comment.
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Who said you need "a year to study for step 2 ck"? Are you talking to yourself?

Unty said:
Combined vascular surgery/derm? You mean a combined program? Never heard of that. Is it a 10 year program lol.
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I mean combined vascular surgery/general surgery program and dermatology. I thought it is clear I am talking about two separate specialties in this case.

Unty said:
You have a better chance of landing a spot by actually doing vascular or derm research in a vascular surgery dept or derm dept and kiss major major asssssss!!!!! Get with the program bro!
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Once again, who are you talking to? I'm not a med student who would like to do PSF. I'm just telling how it works in real life. You may like it or dislike it doesn't matter.

Nobody here is asking about your valuable opinion on this, bro.
 
Back before about 2003 or so, when path had a 5 year residency, the PSF could be utilized as a subtitute for your fifth year of required training. The 5th year was either a transitional type clinical year or a 5th year unaccredited fellowship (most did surg path). But now it's just an extra year which means you are deferring graduation and everything else by another year - more important if you have loans. You may get paid but it's not even at resident level typically.

I did one and it was 100% the main reason I chose pathology (I had designs about going into heme onc or general IM and wanted all that knowledge) but I liked it and kept with it.

Other people make good points above about whether it makes you more competitive. I have no idea. It most certainly doesn't outweigh everything else in your application. For rare marginal candidates it might make a difference, but if you're a marginal candidate you might also not be that impressive in the PSF so it could backfire. As noted above, if you are a US grad that kind of makes you competitive at default. So don't do it unless you really want to.

Can it make you more competitive for other specialties? I have no idea. I'm sure in some circumstances it can play a factor, but again, probably outweighed by lots of other stuff.
 
Fwiw, none of my classmates who did a path year seemed to regret it. The ones who did end up going into path matched at their top choices at very competitive programs (and from my experience in the match, the top programs are not a shoe-in to get into, even for US grad's with decent scores). I personally would never do one, but I don't think everybody makes all of their decisions based on maximizing their career earnings. Otherwise why would US grads with other options go into FM or peds?
 
Unty said:
If I wanted derm I would’ve just did as many dermpath rotations as possible with rotations in clinical derm as well during the month ( instead of wasting a whole year).
Click to expand...

I didn't do any away rotations in derm personally. To each their own.
 
Alteran said:
And the logic for that is sound if your academic accolades are competitive with the cohort applying that year. But the PSFs I've seen would never have been competitive for these kinds of specialties irrespective of how many rotations in whatever specialty they were trying to get into. In fact, some of these competitive departments have a fire wall for medical students. One guy in my med school class was either trying to get into derm or ortho (I honestly don't remember which) and all the places he was trying to rotate through said given his STEP 1 score he stood no chance at ever getting in there so they weren't going to waste their time and a spot with him rotating through there on an elective. Yet I saw a very underwhelming PSF from my department all of a sudden become very competitive for derm and managed to secure a spot a few years ago. And one year, in the grand scheme of things, is nothing if it means getting into a specialty where your salaried PAs make more than the average pathologist.

Personally, my whole problem with the PSF situation is the same that I have with pathology in general. We do great things with real benefits for everyone except ourselves as pathologists. Its the most bizarre thing.
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Depends on what you mean by "not competitive". For derm and probably other competitive specialties, taking a year plus to do research in some way shape or form is increasingly common, whether that's an md/phd, an unpaid year of research, etc. There are still plenty of people that go straight through too but I wouldn't say that everyone who takes time to do research wouldn't have otherwise been competitive.
 
My opinion - secure a research fellowship during summer break between your pre-clinical years before you start M3 in a path department. I did this twice, was paid minimum wage, got 2 publications, and 6 mos experience. I was allowed to otherwise follow the residents in the department around for sign-outs, grossing and autopsy as long as my research assays were cooking and my writing tasks were getting completed. It was a nice way to get experience without burning an entire year in a fellowship.
 
Dro133 said:
Fwiw, none of my classmates who did a path year seemed to regret it. The ones who did end up going into path matched at their top choices at very competitive programs (and from my experience in the match, the top programs are not a shoe-in to get into, even for US grad's with decent scores). I personally would never do one, but I don't think everybody makes all of their decisions based on maximizing their career earnings. Otherwise why would US grads with other options go into FM or peds?
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Yeah, you know, to be honest I have never met anyone who did a path year and regretted it. But there are probably people out there who do. And yes, maximizing earnings isn't always as important. Especially if you don't have loans or you're single or whatever. There is a fairly high percentage of people with no loans. 27% on my google search graduate with 0 debt.
 
--Gem said:
After speaking with one of my mentors, they mentioned doing a post sophomore fellowship like this one here:

Post-Sophomore Fellowship with a Masters of Science in Pathology

medicine.utah.edu medicine.utah.edu

Essentially, get paid peanuts for 9-12 months and act as a first year pathology resident after M2/M3. Some programs, like Pittsburgh, require 3+ months of pathology research on top of this. She got into some pretty impressive residency/fellowship spots after med school and said she really loved doing it, but I can't see any other reason to do it.

Is there really any utility in doing this, especially if you're not pursuing an MD/ PhD?
Will it be useful if you decide to pursue a different specialty?
Why is this only a thing for pathology?

Tags for anyone who wants to find this in the future:
Pathology Fellowship
PSF
Post Sophomore Fellowship
Post Junior Fellowship
Pathology Research Year
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One person from my med school did something like that and said he felt it was really great to understand human anatomy/pathophysiology better. He was going into rural medicine and probably would have to do a little of everything, so that knowledge would come in handy. I don't think it would help in the match.
 
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