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blueberry4104 said:
Hey guys, so I am one of the newer scribes at my job (started in Jan and only have worked about 150 hours). Because of the COVID-19 pandemic, our ED patient volume has dropped significantly, so they have cut the number of scribe shifts and given us a no penalty, temporary opt-out option if we do not feel comfortable coming to work. So I have not been working for the month of April. Unfortunately, because of this I haven't had enough time to get to know any of the docs well enough to ask for a letter of recommendation. I am applying this cycle.

Is it bad if I don't have a letter from anyone I've worked with at my scribe job?
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Here's what a doc who's faculty told me about LoRs: "Med schools want to know what you've been doing. If you've been working extensively with a physician, that's great. Now, where's your rec letter?". I interpreted this as if you have hundreds or thousands of hours with a physician, PI, whoever, and you don't have a rec letter, this could be seen as a red flag. Would it have been better if you scribed for that long and that extensively and built a relationship with the docs to get a strong LoR? Sure. But is it bad that you have no rec letter from 150 hours of experience? Probably not so long as you have other letters that can attest to your personal and academic capabilities. This is just my opinion.
 
I wouldn't think so. You've only been there 150 hours after all. I don't think it would be counted against you for not having one after 15,000 hours.

I think it's more of a bonus than anything else.
 
Almost 400 scribe hours. I worked at a large practice but asked my favorite MD for an LoR, which she was happy to write. I ended up not sending this to every school, just in case it was not good.

I ended up getting interviews and acceptances from schools where I did and did not send her letter. (And also rejections and waitlists to places I did and did not send the letter)

I think these situations may depend on who reads your app and policies of the school regarding how many individual rejects does it take to reject your whole app. I think if you said scribing was THE SINGLE EXPERIENCE that solidified your decision to go into medicine, a letter may be more necessary than if you were simply to write what you learned from the experience.
 
Have you scribed for one or a few docs for some extended time? Did you “develop a relationship” with them? Can they write a letter for you?
 
gonnif said:
Will some schools be lenient? Maybe, even probably. However since we dont which schools will do what or how strict some schools will be in 3-6 months you must, repeat, must follow the specific letter requirements. Else you can be rejected on technical grounds. Since every individual medical school must reject at least 80% of applicants prior to any interview invite, follow the requirements. And, MD shadow letters are least useful or impactful to an adcom.
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.
 
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gonnif said:
1) the vast majority of MD schools do not require a physician or other clinical letter (a large fraction of DO schools do)
2) Shadowing is a primarily passive activity that is required to show you have some actual exposure to know what you are getting into
3) the vast majority of shadowing letters give great praise with little evidence that the physician had neither the time or knowledge to give such praise
4) Having 30 hours with a doctor who you observe ain't alot of time
5) with all this, adcoms generally put shadowing letters as 3 or 4 levels down of impact or importance.
6) Letters in order of importance are:
--1) required/recommended academic;
--2) Supervisor from employment;
--3) PI/Research;
--4) long time "professional" reference (ie long time coach, advisor,);
--5) long-time volunteer or service position (which may include clinical);
--6) Shadowing
--7) Personal as in family, friends etc
--8) political
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This is incredibly helpful, thank you @gonnif! I feel better knowing that I have great letters for #1-3. I'll do some deeper research into the letter requirements for specific schools, but it's good to know that some schools won't require that physician letter
 
gonnif said:
1) the vast majority of MD schools do not require a physician or other clinical letter (a large fraction of DO schools do)
2) Shadowing is a primarily passive activity that is required to show you have some actual exposure to know what you are getting into
3) the vast majority of shadowing letters give great praise with little evidence that the physician had neither the time or knowledge to give such praise
4) Having 30 hours with a doctor who you observe ain't alot of time
5) with all this, adcoms generally put shadowing letters as 3 or 4 levels down of impact or importance.
6) Letters in order of importance are:
--1) required/recommended academic;
--2) Supervisor from employment;
--3) PI/Research;
--4) long time "professional" reference (ie long time coach, advisor,);
--5) long-time volunteer or service position (which may include clinical);
--6) Shadowing
--7) Personal as in family, friends etc
--8) political
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Hi @gonnif @Catalystik ,

If we have the opportunity to write a shadowing letter at least before the physician edits it, what would you recommend I emphasize. Should I include specific stories about how I interacted kindly with some patient? I feel like there's something more that I can speak about even with a shadowing letter. I spent 160 hours under him in an underserved region. The theme of my application is to serve the underserved with my own background and upbringing, so maybe I can tie this in?

Thanks
 
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@gonnif

Going to piggyback on this thread. I have the required academic letters, along with my most recent job letter which doubles as research letter.

A few years ago I had a scribe position that affirmed my desire to go into medicine and it’s one of my most meaningful activities. However the letter I get won’t be great; I got along great with the doctor I worked with but they showed me a LOR they had prepared for me and it was like half a page. It was glowing in terms of review, but not very specific, so I don’t want to send it. Might that hurt me?
 
Most letters from physicians are not very helpful to adcoms. Some are too short and just say that the applicant was well groomed, showed up on time and stayed out of the way. Others are too long and go on and on heaping praise on the writer of the letter, the academic pedigree, training positions, years on the faculty, so that we are expected that merely being in the reflected glory of such a beacon of healing should qualify one for medical school admission. Some of the docs who hire scribes are not in academics themselves and write letters that give some pluses and a minus or two, not knowing that in academia these days, those letters are considered the kiss of death.
Spare us physician letters, unless the school specifically asks for a physician letter.
 
LizzyM said:
Most letters from physicians are not very helpful to adcoms. Some are too short and just say that the applicant was well groomed, showed up on time and stayed out of the way. Others are too long and go on and on heaping praise on the writer of the letter, the academic pedigree, training positions, years on the faculty, so that we are expected that merely being in the reflected glory of such a beacon of healing should qualify one for medical school admission. Some of the docs who hire scribes are not in academics themselves and write letters that give some pluses and a minus or two, not knowing that in academia these days, those letters are considered the kiss of death.
Spare us physician letters, unless the school specifically asks for a physician letter.
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@LizzyM @Catalystik @Goro @gyngyn

Can you recall any shadowing physician letters that you particularly liked ? Did they focus on maybe the applicant’s background and how his childhood growing up in a low social economic area shaped their desire to assist a particular group of people- and how the doctor was able to see this in their interactions? Is this the path that would be preferable in a shadowing letter?

This is specifically for schools that require a physician LOR. Would there be certain things that you can recommend the doctor should speak about (albeit it is shadowing), to make the most of this letter for these schools that require it.
 
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LizzyM said:
Most letters from physicians are not very helpful to adcoms. Some are too short and just say that the applicant was well groomed, showed up on time and stayed out of the way. Others are too long and go on and on heaping praise on the writer of the letter, the academic pedigree, training positions, years on the faculty, so that we are expected that merely being in the reflected glory of such a beacon of healing should qualify one for medical school admission. Some of the docs who hire scribes are not in academics themselves and write letters that give some pluses and a minus or two, not knowing that in academia these days, those letters are considered the kiss of death.
Spare us physician letters, unless the school specifically asks for a physician letter.
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Would this still apply if I work with physicians? I’m a lab tech and phlebotomist in a small hospital so semi-low contact with docs (primarily over the phone or during traumas) but I have developed relationships with providers further through shadowing.
 
SydneyL said:
Would this still apply if I work with physicians? I’m a lab tech and phlebotomist in a small hospital so semi-low contact with docs (primarily over the phone or during traumas) but I have developed relationships with providers further through shadowing.
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The doctors you work with might be able to address your role as a member of the team but for the most part, schools are expecting letters that will address the kind of student you will be (hence: two science, one non-science) so letters from physicians who have not been your instructors are not going to touch on what we're looking for.
 
LizzyM said:
Most letters from physicians are not very helpful to adcoms. Some are too short and just say that the applicant was well groomed, showed up on time and stayed out of the way. Others are too long and go on and on heaping praise on the writer of the letter, the academic pedigree, training positions, years on the faculty, so that we are expected that merely being in the reflected glory of such a beacon of healing should qualify one for medical school admission. Some of the docs who hire scribes are not in academics themselves and write letters that give some pluses and a minus or two, not knowing that in academia these days, those letters are considered the kiss of death.
Spare us physician letters, unless the school specifically asks for a physician letter.
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What about physicians as a direct supervisor at a clinical job? I know a lot of schools recommend submitting additional supervisor letters in addition to academic letters than can attest to one's ability within a team
 
Hzreio said:
What about physicians as a direct supervisor at a clinical job? I know a lot of schools recommend submitting additional supervisor letters in addition to academic letters than can attest to one's ability within a team
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If schools tell you that they want a supervisor letter, and the supervisor is a physician, then that should fit the bill. My school does not require a supervisor letter and most of the letters I see are from physicians the student shadowed or from neighbors/family friends (which are completely biased and worthless).
 
LizzyM said:
If schools tell you that they want a supervisor letter, and the supervisor is a physician, then that should fit the bill. My school does not require a supervisor letter and most of the letters I see are from physicians the student shadowed or from neighbors/family friends (which are completely biased and worthless).
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Even if supervisor letters are not explicitly recommended, would letters from a physician supervisors that speak to one's productivity, especially in a gap year, be helpful still?
 
Hzreio said:
Even if supervisor letters are not explicitly recommended, would letters from a physician supervisors that speak to one's productivity, especially in a gap year, be helpful still?
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I think it is best to stick with what a school asks for. Will the letter make me want to meet you in an interview? Will the letter provide information of a positive nature that is not otherwise obvious based on other parts of your application?
 
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