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If he is feeling guilty about lying, he should should email the Admissions deans, confess to what he's done, mention that as of now he does have the hours that he has as of now, and it's very possible that the Deans may reward him for being honest.

And if not? then it's Inshallah.
 
doctry23 said:
I think he should talk to a religious leader because this is not something average Americans can give proper advice on.
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This^^^^^^.

But, for the record, if he accurately reported the time frame (some time before June 2021-April 2022) and if he now has at least as many hours as he claimed, the schools KNOW some of those hours were projected, even if he did not explicitly say it. It was implied by the fact that the time frame extended past the date of application submission.

I'm not a Muslim, so it's not my place to tell you or your friend what to do, but I REALLY do not think he lied.

If he implied he had more hours completed as of June than he did, and if he did not break out completed hours and projected hours on his application, schools were certainly free to ask about that on interviews. If they did not, and he did not lie in response, I really think this is not a lie.

It's an ambiguity that was not clearly addressed, but his hours are now even more than he said they would be before matriculation. I do not think your friend should jeopardize the good he can do as a physician over an overly strict interpretation of the ambiguity between completed and projected hours last summer that has been resolved before matriculation.

Your friend certainly does not need absolution from a med school dean, or from any of the adcoms on SDN. Maybe an Imam. JMHO.
 
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is there something equivalent to confession? Maybe see what penance you get?
 
KnightDoc said:
This^^^^^^.

But, for the record, if he accurately reported the time frame (some time before June 2021-April 2022) and if he now has at least as many hours as he claimed, the schools KNOW some of those hours were projected, even if he did not explicitly say it. It was implied by the fact that the time frame extended past the date of application submission.

I'm not a Muslim, so it's not my place to tell you or your friend what to do, but I REALLY do not think he lied.

If he implied he had more hours completed as of June than he did, and if he did not break out completed hours and projected hours on his application, schools were certainly free to ask about that on interviews. If they did not, and he did not lie in response, I really think this is not a lie.

It's an ambiguity that was not clearly addressed, but his hours are now even more than he said they would be before matriculation. I do not think your friend should jeopardize the good he can do as a physician over an overly strict interpretation of the ambiguity between completed and projected hours last summer that has been resolved before matriculation.

Your friend certainly does not need absolution from a med school dean, or from any of the adcoms on SDN. Maybe an Imam. JMHO.
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Thank u for responding I appreciate the help. Yes he deliberately knew his hours were low so he purposely combined projected hours with the hours he had done at the time of the application and didn’t specify, and tmdsas says to enter a activity you plan to do thru the app cycle as two separate entries (one normal one projected/future activity), so he feels bad. To be fair though he does have like 20% more hours as of now than what he put on his app

The religious ruling is centered around the deception as he deceived the schools so thats why he feels like he should tell the school. I told him to reach out to a scholar before making a decision
 
Goro said:
If he is feeling guilty about lying, he should should email the Admissions deans, confess to what he's done, mention that as of now he does have the hours that he has as of now, and it's very possible that the Deans may reward him for being honest.

And if not? then it's Inshallah.
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Thanks for responding!

you’re the only person out of like 40 who said he should tell the school. The overwhelming message even from physicians and students was that if he tells the schools they will report him to AMCAS and TMDSAS as it’s a violation of ethics and standards.
 
Ever read Crime and Punishment OP?

Basically Raskolnikov’s internal guilt and anguish are worse than the actual punishment. If you will torment yourself over this, it may just be better to tell the schools.
 
Mian97 said:
Thank u for responding I appreciate the help. Yes he deliberately knew his hours were low so he purposely combined projected hours with the hours he had done at the time of the application and didn’t specify, and tmdsas says to enter a activity you plan to do thru the app cycle as two separate entries (one normal one projected/future activity), so he feels bad. To be fair though he does have like 20% more hours as of now than what he put on his app

The religious ruling is centered around the deception as he deceived the schools so thats why he feels like he should tell the school. I told him to reach out to a scholar before making a decision
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I understand. I did not apply TMDSAS, and AMCAS does not provide the same direction. (Most people do break out projected hours from completed, but it's not a separate entry, and there is no specific instruction to do so.)

Seriously, I think consulting a trusted Imam is MUCH more wise than soliciting opinions from anonymous strangers on the internet. It sounds like you both want to do the right thing, so I urge both of you to think long and hard about potentially jeopardizing a future over this without receiving the appropriate religious counsel. Good luck!!
 
Mian97 said:
Yes he deliberately knew his hours were low so he purposely combined projected hours with the hours he had done at the time of the application and didn’t specify.
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If the start date, end date, and total number of hours listed for that time frame were all correct, then your friend did not lie and there's nothing to confess or feel guilty about. AMCAS (unfortunately) does not require applicants to specify which hours are completed vs projected. As they say, don't hate the player, hate the game.

Personally, this is why I am generally skeptical of applications that don't separate out their completed from their projected hours. Applicants who've completed most of their hours by the time of application would be wise to make this distinction on their application. Just my thoughts.
 
Moko said:
If the start date, end date, and total number of hours listed for that time frame were all correct, then your friend did not lie and there's nothing to confess or feel guilty about. AMCAS (unfortunately) does not require applicants to specify which hours are completed vs projected. As they say, don't hate the player, hate the game.

Personally, this is why I am generally skeptical of applications that don't separate out their completed from their projected hours. Applicants who've completed most of their hours by the time of application would be wise to make this distinction on their application. Just my thoughts.
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It's apparently a little more complicated than this, because, according to OP, TMDSAS does ask people to separate completed and projected hours, and the person did not do so. I agree with the rest of your post, since the person left it ambiguous, the schools did not question it, and the hours have now been completed.

I think there is nothing to gain and everything to lose by seeking absolution from the adcoms, and the person should seek religious guidance if necessary to ease any guilt.
 
Moko said:
If the start date, end date, and total number of hours listed for that time frame were all correct, then your friend did not lie and there's nothing to confess or feel guilty about. AMCAS (unfortunately) does not require applicants to specify which hours are completed vs projected. As they say, don't hate the player, hate the game.

Personally, this is why I am generally skeptical of applications that don't separate out their completed from their projected hours. Applicants who've completed most of their hours by the time of application would be wise to make this distinction on their application. Just my thoughts.
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I think it depends on the tense that is used in the description. Obviously talking about activities or accomplishments in past tense when they haven’t happened yet is akin to flat out lying
 
voxveritatisetlucis said:
I think it depends on the tense that is used in the description. Obviously talking about activities or accomplishments in past tense when they haven’t happened yet is akin to flat out lying
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Not when the date range extends beyond the present, and any time at all was in the past. Anyway, who talks about a current (or future) activity in the past tense in an application? Most people would use present tense, not past or future! 🙂
 
flightjordan said:
No. In (Sunni) Islam, you ask God directly to forgive your sin, promise to not do it again, and you move on with your life. That's what the friend should do in this situation.
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Yes you’re correct however if the sin involves taking someone’s right away, such as degrading their honor behind their back, stealing money or assets, physically hurting someone, etc, part of the repentance involves restoring that persons rights and my friend is worried because he thinks him lying caused someone else who was more qualified to lose a acceptance spot so he violated that persons right by delaying one year of income if they were accepted to medical school
 
Oh, the number of friends I have who lied about their clinical/nonclinical hours on their app lol.... the biggest punishment they received was regretting ever doing medical school because they didn't realize what medicine truly entailed.
 
Mian97 said:
Yes you’re correct however if the sin involves taking someone’s right away, such as degrading their honor behind their back, stealing money or assets, physically hurting someone, etc, part of the repentance involves restoring that persons rights and my friend is worried because he thinks him lying caused someone else who was more qualified to lose a acceptance spot so he violated that persons right by delaying one year of income if they were accepted to medical school
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We don't know that. He is being way too hysterical. Not sure that's a good quality in a future physician.
 
Mian97 said:
Yes you’re correct however if the sin involves taking someone’s right away, such as degrading their honor behind their back, stealing money or assets, physically hurting someone, etc, part of the repentance involves restoring that persons rights and my friend is worried because he thinks him lying caused someone else who was more qualified to lose a acceptance spot so he violated that persons right by delaying one year of income if they were accepted to medical school
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I think if you asked most scholars of Islam, they wouldn't consider this scenario as falling into the fold of violating someone's rights imho. I would consider this more in the "deceit" category.

See the following: He got his university certificate through an intermediary and got a job with it. What should he do? - Islam Question & Answer

Similar situation; the final advice is too regret and repent, but not to quit the job lol. And keep in mind some of the opinions expoused on IslamQA are quite conservative.

Tell your friend to talk to a scholar or someone learned in Islam.
 
Dame_Maggie said:
Why are you invested in your “friend” quitting medicine? Don’t friends usually help their friends find solutions to their problems, not just tell them to quit?
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Because I would feel terrible enabling oppression. He got into med school with wrong qualifications and likely took a spot from someone who deserved it and had more qualifications. It’s deceitful not only to the school but to his patients too. That’s why I felt it was best for him to not move forward.
 
Mian97 said:
Because I would feel terrible enabling oppression. He got into med school with wrong qualifications and likely took a spot from someone who deserved it and had more qualifications. It’s deceitful not only to the school but to his patients too. That’s why I felt it was best for him to not move forward.
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You must be fun at parties. He fudged his volunteer hours (that he actually did do eventually) and didn't follow the TMSDAS directions for projected hours. I'm not an ADCOM but from my perspective it's NBD, not a reason to abandon medicine and flog himself endlessly. If you expected every doctor who slightly fudged their medical school applications either in hours or duties to abandon medical school, then you would have a lot of missing doctors.
 
Mian97 said:
Because I would feel terrible enabling oppression. He got into med school with wrong qualifications and likely took a spot from someone who deserved it and had more qualifications. It’s deceitful not only to the school but to his patients too. That’s why I felt it was best for him to not move forward.
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How to his patients?
 
xffan624 said:
You must be fun at parties. He fudged his volunteer hours (that he actually did do eventually) and didn't follow the TMSDAS directions for projected hours. I'm not an ADCOM but from my perspective it's NBD, not a reason to abandon medicine and flog himself endlessly. If you expected every doctor who slightly fudged their medical school applications either in hours or duties to abandon medical school, then you would have a lot of missing doctors.
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I see where you’re coming from and I understand it may seem extreme but in Islam things such as lying and deceiving others are major sins and have a severe impact which is why I said what I said. Also as a student, wouldn’t u feel bad knowing a classmate got in wrongfully when thousands try their best and work insanely hard to get into medical school year after year? He purposely lied on his app to make it look like he had sufficient hours when we all know 50 clinical hours is a death sentence, also like the 10 hours shadowing
 
Mian97 said:
I see where you’re coming from and I understand it may seem extreme but in Islam things such as lying and deceiving others are major sins and have a severe impact which is why I said what I said. Also as a student, wouldn’t u feel bad knowing a classmate got in wrongfully when thousands try their best and work insanely hard to get into medical school year after year? He purposely lied on his app to make it look like he had sufficient hours when we all know 50 clinical hours is a death sentence, also like the 10 hours shadowing
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You said in your OP that he didn’t disclose the number of hours, and now he has 20% more hours that what he claimed on his application. If he didn’t disclose the hours, how could he have claimed them?

Also if he did outright lie (or technically lie, based on not separating his hours by current vs future), then Goro’s solution seems to be the best, although I personally would encourage any Muslim friend of mine to consult with an elder of the faith (scholar?) and do whatever they say. I do think you need to ask yourself though if you’re really as happy for your friend as you say you are, because I’m detecting some bitterness from your responses that YOU feel like your friend doesn’t deserve the acceptance, and you’re using religion to justify your stance.
 
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Mian97 said:
Because I would feel terrible enabling oppression. He got into med school with wrong qualifications and likely took a spot from someone who deserved it and had more qualifications. It’s deceitful not only to the school but to his patients too. That’s why I felt it was best for him to not move forward.
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Exactly how are you enabling oppression?
 
Goro said:
Exactly how are you enabling oppression?
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By not pointing out why his deliberate lying was wrong. In Islam we have a duty to speak out on wrong we aren’t suppose to stay quiet, I can’t just tell my friend yes everything’s ok I have to agree and tell him yes what you did was very wrong and if u chose to walk away from this acceptance that’s not a bad choice given someone more qualified lost their spot due to your deliberate lie
 
Mian97 said:
By not pointing out why his deliberate lying was wrong. In Islam we have a duty to speak out on wrong we aren’t suppose to stay quiet, I can’t just tell my friend yes everything’s ok I have to agree and tell him yes what you did was very wrong and if u chose to walk away from this acceptance that’s not a bad choice given someone more qualified lost their spot due to your deliberate lie
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More qualified? He got the hours he said he did right? He got even More hours than he said he would. The issue isn’t one of qualification. It isn’t even an issue of outcome at all. He is more qualified than he said. The issue is one of honesty. If he intentionally manipulated the system to seem more qualified than he was at the time he submitted, that’s the issue. It’s not about oppression or qualifications, it’s just about total honesty. Personally I would recommend talking with a spiritual advisor, one who knows better what the appropriate course of action is for his own spiritual well-being.
 
I am not familiar with TMDAS, but I believe they treat hours through October as current hours. And while you are supposed to separate planned hours into a separate section, each activity requires you to list the date range and approximate hours per week. So, it would be easy to calculate what has been done from what hasn’t.
 
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